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Local religious, atheist leaders: Nothing wrong with ‘Tebowing’

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Posted: Saturday, January 14, 2012 12:00 am | Updated: 6:25 am, Sat Jan 14, 2012.

Denver Broncos quarterback Tim Tebow's public proclamations of his Christian faith during the Broncos' recent victories have created friends and alienated others.

Some enjoy his public devotion to God, some say it's a constitutional right, and some maintain he should keep his thoughts to himself. His tendency to crouch down on one knee and pray during games is expected during today's National Football League playoff game against the New England Patriots.

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33 comments:

  • Bob Silvano posted at 6:51 pm on Wed, Jan 25, 2012.

    Bob Silvano Posts: 145

    ARE YOU PEOPLE ALL BRAIN DEAD ? IT'S JUST A FOOTBALL GAME!

     
  • Patrick W Maple posted at 2:06 pm on Fri, Jan 20, 2012.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1804

    Why is it that some people think God has no place in politics or government or THEIR lives yet they think they have a right to criticize or praise a private citizen about his God, beliefs or life? Those are the people to watch out for...the constrictors, restrictors and extractors.Have a little faith in He.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 7:31 am on Fri, Jan 20, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9403

    David... I appreciate the tone and civility you bring to discussing this topic...thank you!

     
  • David Diskin posted at 12:06 am on Fri, Jan 20, 2012.

    David Diskin Posts: 175

    Ben: Yes.

     
  • Ben Moe posted at 9:57 am on Wed, Jan 18, 2012.

    Sandinista Posts: 8

    Atheist - "Just because an atheist doesn't feel the same way about the world and how it was created doesn't mean we don't feel they have the right to express themselves."


    Reeeeeaaaallllly?

     
  • Kevin Paglia posted at 8:41 am on Tue, Jan 17, 2012.

    Kevin Paglia Posts: 1880

    I will wrap my part in this discussion tangent with this: I do acknowledge that there are Christians who think God is directly intervening in the world and in individual lives. We have seen letters here that claimed the Cal. wildfires were a judgement from God, or that AIDS is a judgement from God. Even Harold Camping and his batch probably think God changed the plan for world destruction because of prayer.

    Let's even look at the absolute trivialness of those who think God wants a specific team to win a football game. Unless it sets in motion some butterfly effect then I seriously doubt it. What God does want is for us to use what we have been given and use these talents so that others can benefit from them. Tebow may not have been slated to win the BIG game, but through his unashamed displays of faith the country is talking about he role Gos has in our lives. We wouldn't be doing that if he was having a horrible year.

     
  • Kevin Paglia posted at 8:32 am on Tue, Jan 17, 2012.

    Kevin Paglia Posts: 1880

    I am in no way a religious scholar nor a very apt teacher of such things so words may fail as I attempt to answer these questions but here we go.

    "1) If God does not intervene in the natural world, then was everything that God did in the Bible just an allegory? The flood, sending Jesus, even the burning bush?"

    As I said, God set everything in motion. What I did not address is the outside of time, in all time aspect of God. Almost every single 'miracle' of the old testament has very sound and logical natural explanations. Where the miracle comes in is the extreme timing of the natural events to help a specific people at specific times. Burning bushes, talking mules and Jesus are as I stated, glimpses at the road map to keep us heading in the right direction.

    "2) Further, why do I always hear prayer that goes beyond thanks? Praying for guidance, or to help the needy, or to do anything other than listen is clearly asking God to intervene."

    Simple answer is because the Bible clearly tells us to. "seek and ye shall find, ask and ye shall receive." But it also tells us very clearly that it is by God's will that things will be done, not by ours. I have met people that go beyond asking in prayer, bordering on demanding. Praying for guidance is simply asking for a glimpse of the road map. Have you ever been driving and felt the odd feeling of taking a different way home than normal? Ever wonder WHY you were encouraged to not go the normal way? I have had very strong glimpses at the road map in my life. I still don't consider these direct interventions. And maybe that is one place where I am not addressing things clearly.

    So an aside. As I said I believe there is a road map and that road map is reveled to those that need to be directed on it when needed. Some of us listen to the guidance, some don't. Some go so far off that road they may never find their way back. But if there is a road map to follow then it also means that there is a destination, a plan. I believe that God put that plan into action and the moment of creation. Where some may see the Flood as divine intervention, I see it as a continuation of the plan. I have no idea what that plan is as a who, I can only hope to follow that road map as best I can with the information I am given.

    Now back to the response: Asking God for guidance is NOT asking for intervention, it is asking for a glimpse at the map to keep the original plan in motion.

    Asking God to feed the hungry, well that is just silly. What can happen is that God can give people a glimpse and encourage them to help the needy. But this is a man-made situation and requires a man made solution because as long as people ignore the road map we will always have problems.

    Christians who understand this concept of the road map always end their prayers the way Jesus told us to, acknowledging that it is not by our will that things are done but through God's. And while the situations may be difficult and heartbreaking, faith says we must A) do what we can to make these trying situations better, and B) accept that there is a plan that we do not and cannot possibly comprehend in action and just because a tragedy happened doesn't mean that we have been abandoned.

    Those are the simplified version of the answers, anything more in-depth would require a marathon of posts.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 5:40 am on Tue, Jan 17, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9403

    David Diskin stated... You say that god does not intervene. Darrell seems to agree and suggests that "ALL have similar views

    Kevin is involved in Christianity and I am not. I do not belong to any religious organization. I can only make observations of the people who are Christians I come in contact with.

    In context with this tread, the expectation of intervention from god has no relationship to why one prays to god. God may intervene or not. I do not think it is important for us to understand if god intervenes or not... praying is practiced for other reasons.I have no control or expectations that god may step in or not... you would have to ask god.

     
  • David Diskin posted at 12:25 am on Tue, Jan 17, 2012.

    David Diskin Posts: 175

    Kevin, I appreciate your response as I try to understand where you're coming from and what others think. Unfortunately, I'm still at a loss.

    You say that god does not intervene. Darrell seems to agree and suggests that "ALL have similar views".

    But this leaves me baffled for two points that maybe either of you can explain. I asked them earlier, but I didn't see a response.

    1) If God does not intervene in the natural world, then was everything that God did in the Bible just an allegory? The flood, sending Jesus, even the burning bush?

    2) Further, why do I always hear prayer that goes beyond thanks? Praying for guidance, or to help the needy, or to do anything other than listen is clearly asking God to intervene.

    Thank you for your time.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 5:21 pm on Mon, Jan 16, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9403

    David stated...Kevin, surely you realize that your concept of God is different than that of most Christians.

    Actually I have never met a Christian that stated what you think Chistians think. ALL have similar views comparable to Kevin's

     
  • Ben Moe posted at 4:10 pm on Mon, Jan 16, 2012.

    Sandinista Posts: 8

    LOL! Where did they find that atheist at?
    Not the response I expected from an atheist. He must not be orthodox.

     
  • Kevin Paglia posted at 2:38 pm on Mon, Jan 16, 2012.

    Kevin Paglia Posts: 1880

    Here's is the problem, and why it is so hard for some people to grasp God's action without direct intervention, is the comprehension of what is happening before our eyes vs what we haven't seen leading up to that event or around the situation. Chaos theory is the best explanation, though only a fragment of the reality (I suspect).

    Let's use my favorite communication technique: the analogy. look at the movie Armageddon. In the revel of the space shuttles to the human race the Hollywood president states that every war has lead to the technology that would now save the planet. We don't know what the results of our efforts today and how they will effect the world tomorrow. God does. And while I don't believe God intervenes directly (other then the before said setting things in motion) guidance is given. Kind of like glimpses of the map to make sure you get to where you need to be.

    I have had enough times where i felt a glimpse of the map to believe there is a force guiding me. The Christian concept of God is the best, closest explanation as to what I have experienced.

     
  • Kevin Paglia posted at 2:27 pm on Mon, Jan 16, 2012.

    Kevin Paglia Posts: 1880

    "And further still, what good is a God that doesn't intervene?"

    Says a lot about why you consider God to be a myth and Christianity a hoax. You believe that God should bend to your will and do for you. Of course you are not alone. Many "christians" think the same thing, that their will should be met, and God's will should bend to them.

    "If all God did was set the laws of the universe into motion, then can we really call that "God"?" Gee, what did you do today? Do you demand more of God?

    Your terminology now and from past letters has given me the impression of you resenting God for not answering a prayer of yours. The classic "if you're not going to do this for me then why should I believe in you?" syndrome.

     
  • David Diskin posted at 10:51 am on Mon, Jan 16, 2012.

    David Diskin Posts: 175

    Kevin, surely you realize that your concept of God is different than that of most Christians.

    If God does not intervene in the natural world, then was everything that God did in the Bible just an allegory? The flood, sending Jesus, even the burning bush?

    Further, why do I always hear prayer that goes beyond thanks? Praying for guidance, or to help the needy, or to do anything other than listen is clearly asking God to intervene.

    And further still, what good is a God that doesn't intervene? If all God did was set the laws of the universe into motion, then can we really call that "God"? It certainly isn't a personal god, and there is no demonstration of being omnipotent or omnicient. Perhaps "god" is just another word for "physics"?

     
  • Kevin Paglia posted at 10:21 pm on Sun, Jan 15, 2012.

    Kevin Paglia Posts: 1880

    When discussing polls it is best to know what the source is: http://pollposition.com/2012/01/12/43-god-helps-tebow-win/

    Note that there were only two questions asked. It shows the incompetence of the pollsters to begin with and the sheer bias with which the poll was taken. Question 2 Do believe that any of Tim Tebow’s success can be attributed to Divine Intervention?

    Do you know how wide open this question is? Many of the responders could have interpreted the question as something along the lines of "is tebow using God given gifts to be successful." Or did God given Tebow the talents he is now using to be successful? I firmly believe that if the questions had been well written then they would have been phrased more along the lines of "Is God helping Tebow win over the other teams?" "Is God deliberately helping Tebow complete specific passes?" Then the results would not have been nearly as news worthy.

    i believe that many people acknowledge that their personal gifts are given from God. how they use them is their CHOICE.

    And let's remember that Tim Tebow was recommended by the Dr. to be aborted. His mom fought against the medical odds and gave birth to a son that has proven to be much healthier than the abortion would have left him.

     
  • Kevin Paglia posted at 10:09 pm on Sun, Jan 15, 2012.

    Kevin Paglia Posts: 1880

    Andy: I'm not sure where your reading comprehension skills went askew, but NOWHERE did I say that God intervenes in the natural world. I did say God set the natural laws in motion, which everything is subject to. I also said that all the solutions to the worlds problems are currently present for us, but we as a collective have chosen not to act on those solutions.

    Here's the difference between us and how we see the problems of the world: I see them as a man-made problem and thus needs man-made solutions. You blame God for the bad in the world thus want God to step in and do it for us.

    There is a joke that deals with this discussion http://www.ahajokes.com/reg28.html The solutions have been sent, but we have ignored them waiting for God to take care of it for us.

     
  • Andy Crowder posted at 8:20 pm on Sun, Jan 15, 2012.

    Andy Crowder Posts: 244

    Kevin, I agree with you completely about man's choices. But that's not what this discussion is all about. You and Tebow believe that God intervenes in the natural world. Sometimes he chooses to help his favorites win football games, find a job, or in the case of a good friend of mine, secure a favorable mortgage. Your god also chooses to ignore the pleas of suffering and dying children enduring unspeakable terror. I guess he makes his choices too. Funny how he always seems to be helping folks in the richest country in the world but somehow brown and black skinned children in the developing world almost always fail to win his favor. They must not be praying hard enough. Or maybe there is some higher purpose for allowing small children to be raped, tortured, and starved to death. I'd be curious to hear your explanation for that. Please don't say that we can't use man's understanding of the world to judge god--you do that all the time when you say god is good.

     
  • David Diskin posted at 6:55 pm on Sun, Jan 15, 2012.

    David Diskin Posts: 175

    I do not doubt Tebow's sincerity when he thanks god for his success.

    But I do find it difficult to understand how the religious can believe in prayer, and in a merciful god.

    If prayer works, then it shows that god's will can be changed. It shows that we have a personal god, who listens, and changes the randomness of nature to suit our desires.

    It then follows that successful prayer helps those in need, or those who god deems worthy of these divine adjustments.

    If we are to say that prayer is successful, and cite examples, then what are we to say when prayer didn't work? Are the children who starve not praying enough? or to the correct god? Are we not praying enough for them?

    Many of the posts here mention our choice and freewill to help those in need, and that we horde food and money while others suffer. We are quick to judge ourselves but not the all-powerful creator which gave us this situation to begin with, and who alone holds the power to solve it?

    What it boils down to is simple: prayer works when it's in our favor, and it's god's will or our own poor judgement when it's not.

     
  • Kevin Paglia posted at 1:03 pm on Sun, Jan 15, 2012.

    Kevin Paglia Posts: 1880

    Brian, if you look at http://www.lodinews.com/news/article_6d1461e0-342a-11e1-95cb-001871e3ce6c.html and read Ric Flair's comments you will see he strongly stands by his position that a Lodi Husband and Wife should be shot for not talking to the police. In his words to the couple (and i suspect me), "conform or prepare to get blasted with better aim."

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 11:54 am on Sun, Jan 15, 2012.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2740

    Joanne wrote:

    Why is ric flair still on this site?

    -Chuckle,

    Why is Joanne Bobin STILL on this site?

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 11:51 am on Sun, Jan 15, 2012.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2740

    Andy,

    So you're saying Tebow isn't really sincere about giving away all his endorsement money to help build a hospital in Asia?

     
  • Kevin Paglia posted at 11:49 am on Sun, Jan 15, 2012.

    Kevin Paglia Posts: 1880

    And to address the flood and other natural disasters that strike millions a year. As I just said, God set the natural world in motion, established the laws that everything abides by. In order to advert the flood then rain would have to be diverted and then drought happens and more die of hunger. Without the plate tectonics that give us earthquakes and volcanoes then the world would be laid flat and wind would erode everything with nothing to stop it.

    While it is tragic what happens to millions around the world as the expression of the natural laws strike it is also very important to remember without those natural laws causing misery then life would not be at all.

    And i have already heard the rebuttal of "oh, so God makes some suffer so others can live comfortably huh?" Nope, as i said in my previous post, we are given the gift of CHOICE. We can choose action. the governments blocking food from getting to the refugees in their borders CHOOSE the action. We as Americans CHOOSE to send billions to try to help as many people as we can. When a natural disaster happens, we as a creation of God's, CHOOSE our action, to ignore or help.

    In the same way the abusive parent CHOOSES their action. The neighbor CHOOSS to act when they hear the screaming. People Like Ric Flair posting here CHOOSES to wish a husband and wife shot. The soldier CHOOSES to risk their life to go to a foreign land to defend the helpless. A cop or fireman chooses to step into the line of fire to help those in need.

    CHOICE is a double edged sword, we can choose to help or choose to ignore. It is through that gift of CHOICE that GOD has established a way to solve the horrors of the world. Mankind as a whole has just choosen to NOT solve the problems.

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 11:48 am on Sun, Jan 15, 2012.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2740

    Kevin wrote:

    Darrell And Joanne: You have to remember who you are talking to. Ric was advocating for a Lodi husband and wife to be shot because he didn't like that they were afraid. Not exactly a stable mentality to debate with.

    -I have heard other people make this 'figurative"and not "literal" statement before. It seems to me Kevin and Joanne are advocating Ric be considered an unstable person just because of this statement. It's consistent with Joanne's usual stratedgy of trying to smear people. With Kevin, I'm unsure.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 11:44 am on Sun, Jan 15, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9403

    As far as connecting the dots, Mr Crowder, you cannot find the dots to connect in the first place.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 11:42 am on Sun, Jan 15, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9403

    Mr Crower displays his complete and total lack of understanding what Tebow is all about. Your last post is pure ignorance at best.

    You have a distorted and false view of what Christianity and Tebow. I am not a Christian but know many... none are as you desbribe.

    Most people like Tebow want to be constructive, humble, helpful and have good at heart. He attributes what he does and has to a greater power and thinks positive. You on the other hand tear down, are not constructive and see negative instead of positive. He sees good in trying your best and perceives winning or losing a game as secondary to life's lesson's learned from the event itself.

     
  • Kevin Paglia posted at 11:32 am on Sun, Jan 15, 2012.

    Kevin Paglia Posts: 1880

    Andy, i think you are putting a very human limitation on a non-human entity. For a Christian who believes that god set the whole universe in motion, who established the laws of nature that everything lives by, who created the very miracle of life then it is not a stretch at all to for us Christians to believe that God gave Tebow the skills he needed to have a decent year as quarterback. Tebow just had to access the gifts that God gave to him in order to perform well.

    In the same line there are millions of Christians and others around the world that have been the gift of extra. Extra food, extra money, extra time. Any of these can be accessed to help feed the hungry of the world. Comments like yours that brings to my mind the thought that yo think God should be a merciless dictator forcing his little puppets to follow the plan or be erased. This is contrary to the Loving God belief where Gos allows us to make mistakes, a God who loves us so much that we are allowed to CHOOSE how we behave. And since we are imperfect then bad decisions are made.

     
  • Andy Crowder posted at 10:19 am on Sun, Jan 15, 2012.

    Andy Crowder Posts: 244

    Again, you are unable to connect the dots, Baumbach. It is Tebow who is kicking "defenseless puppies." How many devout Christians in the most desperate situations imaginable pray ceaselessly for their God to bring a little rain so thousands of children do not die of hunger? How many devout Christians have prayed in vain for God to save their family from a flood, or to guide their hand as they operate on some stricken child? Tebow must be the most narcissistic man alive if he thinks his God is more interested in Broncos football than the prayers of dying children. And he's rubbing it in the face of millions of suffering Christians.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 9:59 am on Sun, Jan 15, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9403

    How sad that Mr Crowder would stoop to this level to make fun of a respected person in Mr. Tebow in this situation. This man believes in Christ and appreciates what he feels he is blessed with. That's all. To belittle or make fun of this is childish and immature.

    Maybe Mr Crowder would smile and laugh when he kicks his defenseless puppy, ( figuratively) but I think his thoughts diminish his stature as a good person.

     
  • Andy Crowder posted at 8:39 am on Sun, Jan 15, 2012.

    Andy Crowder Posts: 244

    I read a poll this morning that 43% of Americans believe that Tebow's winning performances are the result of divine intervention. About 17 children under the age of five die every minute from starvation, disease, and violence, yet Tebow's God spends His Sundays in front of His celestial big screen rooting for the Broncos, suspending the laws of physics as needed to put those points on the scoreboard. Yesterday, He was apparently napping.

     
  • Kevin Paglia posted at 8:20 am on Sun, Jan 15, 2012.

    Kevin Paglia Posts: 1880

    Darrell And Joanne: You have to remember who you are talking to. Ric was advocating for a Lodi husband and wife to be shot because he didn't like that they were afraid. Not exactly a stable mentality to debate with.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 7:33 am on Sun, Jan 15, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9403

    Ric stated...Quit acting like a entitled blue shirt.( to Ms Bobin)

    What is an entitled blue shirt? Have not heard of that saying?

    Whatever that is, I'm not sure why someone would get angry and tell a blue shirt
    ( what ever that is) to shut their mouth....if you are open to debate, and the question is why are you here in this forum, I would welcome the question and take it as an opportunity to debate the reason why she asked the question in the first place... it was an odd thing for Joanne Bobin to say in an opinion forum.... but the response to it was equally odd and contrary to one who is open to debate.

     
  • Joanne Bobin posted at 10:26 am on Sat, Jan 14, 2012.

    Joanne Bobin Posts: 4301

    Why is ric flair still on this site?

     
  • Kevin Paglia posted at 9:11 am on Sat, Jan 14, 2012.

    Kevin Paglia Posts: 1880

    My only problem with it is that other people have taken to doing it as a joke. They are doing it and laughing at the action. This is equivalent to making the sign of the Cross as the punch line of a joke. It is disrespectful.

    I have no problem with those who do it as a true action (it was around long before Tebow), only those who are doing it as a joke.

     

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