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The military should be included in budget cuts

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Posted: Thursday, November 10, 2011 12:00 am | Updated: 6:50 am, Thu Nov 10, 2011.

We will soon be hearing about the budget cuts proposed by the congressional supercommittee (super in name only). Hopefully, the massive sacred-cow military budget will finally be cut.

According to the Pentagon, there are approximately 865 foreign U.S. military bases, not counting “secret” new bases in Iraq and Afghanistan. This doesn’t even count installations of less than 10 acres or valued at less than $10 million. Sixty years after ending WWII, over 200 U.S. military bases remain in Germany. They are about as useful as a garrison of horse-powered charioteers — but we probably have a few warehouses stuffed with them as well.

Compare these numbers to other leading nations. China has zero foreign military installations. Russia at this time has no more than 25 bases outside of its borders, while France and Great Britain each have no more than a handful in former colonies.

While robbing our treasury and creating foreign resentment, these bases are claimed to be for our security? We spend almost twice what the rest of the world spends on defense. Our worst threat is rag-tag, loosely organized small groups of terrorists.

There was a time — when the Cold War ended — when there was talk of a “great peace dividend.” There was inspiring talk about putting dollars spent on defense into education, medicine and future technologies. Apparently, it all went right back into the DOD’s pocket.

We’ll have our priorities straight when the schools, hospitals and infrastructure have all the money they need and the Air Force has bake sales for that new bomber.

Charles Fries

Lodi

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Welcome to the discussion.

146 comments:

  • Patrick W Maple posted at 10:29 am on Wed, Nov 23, 2011.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1805

    mr l: Thanks...they both mean close to the same thing...however slightly, there is a difference...much like: cognitive disconnect or cognitive loss or cognitive conscience or a whole host of othe cognitions. Sometimes it becomes one of those ah-ha moments.

     
  • Kim Lee posted at 12:03 am on Wed, Nov 23, 2011.

    Kim Lee Posts: 1798

    Darrell wrote, "The real mystery to me is why anyone would ask questions to people they consider idiots."

    Darrell: You are the one that referred to yourself as an idiot. Was that just a low moment in time for you? Are you better now?

     
  • Andrew Liebich posted at 5:39 pm on Tue, Nov 22, 2011.

    Andrew Liebich Posts: 2999

    CONGRATULATIONS Mr. Maple! I commend you for being the first to notice despite having mis-spelled the word intentionally dozens of times.

     
  • Patrick W Maple posted at 3:00 pm on Tue, Nov 22, 2011.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1805

    DB: And you consider yourself non-clever...The real mystery to me is why anyone would ask questions to people they consider idiots. Good one!

    BTW mr l: it is not cognitive dissidence, it is cognitive dissonance.

    Dissidence: disagreement with authority or with prevailing opinion

    Dissonance: lack of consistency or compatibility between actions or beliefs

     
  • Andrew Liebich posted at 8:58 am on Tue, Nov 22, 2011.

    Andrew Liebich Posts: 2999

    Good grief... more incoherent babbling from the self proclaimed LNS idiot...

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 7:51 am on Tue, Nov 22, 2011.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Pat... you might as well be talking to a pebble. He will never get it.
    Even I, and others Andrew considers idiots, get it. I wonder what adjective would apply to him???????? I do not know since I too am an idiot, what would I know?

    The real mystery to me is why anyone would ask questions to people they consider idiots. What possible benefit or knowledge would Andrew expect. Since he thinks we are idiots, he must enjoy wasting his time.. LOL
    Andrew complained one time that he had asked me 457 questions and I had not answered any of them... not one... maybe the answer why is more clear now.

     
  • Andrew Liebich posted at 8:44 pm on Mon, Nov 21, 2011.

    Andrew Liebich Posts: 2999

    Who is Mr. Obvious?

    Happy belated birthday?

    Who do you think is living next door to me? Communists, jews or catholics? How am I connected to any of the three?

    I would prefer if you had the ability to answer a question.

    I already told you what millions are suffering from. DU. Where did you get migraines?

     
  • Patrick W Maple posted at 6:26 pm on Mon, Nov 21, 2011.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1805

    He (Mr Obvious) is living in the swamp.

    I was born 10-28-51...my disagreement with authority (my mother) started soon after.

    Mr Niemoeller...living next door... is a reference to his most famous line/parable and your connection to it..

    My posts always make sense...either look up (over your head) or read slower...or I can type slower...which do you prefer?

    Millions are suffering...from migraines??

     
  • Andrew Liebich posted at 5:23 pm on Mon, Nov 21, 2011.

    Andrew Liebich Posts: 2999

    Mr. Maple, I only used your own quote because it was appropriate given your incoherant response...

    Who is in a swamp? Why am I suddenly "the authority" for a few sentences of truth? What started in 1952? How can Mr. Niemoeller be my neighbor when he passed away in 1984? Your post may have made sense to you but it did not to anyone else, except maybe Darrell.

    Millions are suffering. They are suffering from DU.

     
  • Andrew Liebich posted at 4:56 pm on Mon, Nov 21, 2011.

    Andrew Liebich Posts: 2999

    Mr. Maple, You are misinformed. Daniel is correct.

    http://youtu.be/FejQH_VCB24

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 3:41 pm on Mon, Nov 21, 2011.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Mr. Maple, "state your complaint a bit clearer...or find someone who can do it for you."

    Pat, may I suggest Pee Wee Herman. I think Andrew will relate and comprehend better
    if he were the conveyor of information...

     
  • Patrick W Maple posted at 11:18 am on Mon, Nov 21, 2011.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1805

    Oh boy...we're now playing "I'm rubber, you're glue..."

    mr h: I know for a fact the SH murdered tens of thousand or Kurds...I know that he had WMD...our troops prepared for them and are today suffering illnesses somewhat linked to them. I know that he gave sanctuary to many of the terrorist groups as well. Now, I also know that either you or mr l will question how I know these things...let me state that here...knowing is based on the information at hand, experience and belief...then making an informed decision....if the outcome is incorrect...then I made a mistake...which I have not.

     
  • Andrew Liebich posted at 9:18 am on Mon, Nov 21, 2011.

    Andrew Liebich Posts: 2999

    Mr. Maple, "state your complaint a bit clearer...or find someone who can do it for you."

     
  • daniel hutchins posted at 4:50 pm on Sun, Nov 20, 2011.

    daniel hutchins Posts: 1339

    Pat Maple: Never mind with my point on Ford in the Warren Commission.

    I don't want to disturb you from your comfortable belief system.

     
  • daniel hutchins posted at 4:48 pm on Sun, Nov 20, 2011.

    daniel hutchins Posts: 1339

    Pat maple: I remind you that when America fights a war, that some of our youth lose their lives in the war. These are youth who had trusted the story that their elders had taught them.

    You probably believe that Saddam Hussein held weapons of mass destruction which was the justification for the war.

    When the WMD were not found, the White House had to switch their justification for the war to something else, and millions of Americans likewise ignored their prior reasoning that we had to prevent the use of WMD's.

    Saddam Hussein had even offered to surrender his sovereignty to allow for a United Nations inspection, and Americans ignored this friendly gesture of surrender, before the war even started.

     
  • Patrick W Maple posted at 4:44 pm on Sun, Nov 20, 2011.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1805

    mr l: My cogs are in the right places...the obvious escaped from the pen last week and now is residing in a swamp somewhere in Florida. As far as my disagreement with authority...I take it you think you are the authority...I must confess that is well documented starting in about 1952. Whatever your problem...you are however good practice for writing.

    I'm living in reality. Where are you living? I am your neighbor: Martin Niemoeller.

     
  • daniel hutchins posted at 4:44 pm on Sun, Nov 20, 2011.

    daniel hutchins Posts: 1339

    Pat maple: "This one is too much! Read something/someone besides conspiracy theorists."

    Now, you are telling me what to read. I don’t have any respect for that.

    It was no conspiracy that thousands if not millions of Americans who invested in a stock named “American I.G.” suddenly experienced that their stock crashed to zero. Like you, these Americans who lost their portfolio had placed their full faith and confidence in the Securities and Exchange Commission, and this faith caused the loss of their investment.

    SEC attempted to trace the paper trail, since money leaves a trail. Executives in Frankfurt Germany must have been laughing at the Americans when the SEC found that the paper trail led them around in a circle in Swiss corporations.

    Can't accept that Wall Street was involved with I.G. Farben? OK. I told you. I can't change the truth so that you could accept the story.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 3:23 pm on Sun, Nov 20, 2011.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Pat...as normal, your thinking is very clear and makes sense. I get something out of it every time.Thanks!

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 2:45 pm on Sun, Nov 20, 2011.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    I appreciate your last post Andrew... It clearly defines your world as you see it.

     
  • Andrew Liebich posted at 12:11 pm on Sun, Nov 20, 2011.

    Andrew Liebich Posts: 2999

    Mr. Maple, How can I be any clearer? I asked "Where were you as a self proclaimed defender of our country when habeus corpus, posse comittatus, and the 4th ammendment were eviscerated?" This question is no more difficult to answer than when I asked you to name one thing Iraq or Afghanistan has ever done to the United States. There is a reason the obvious escapes you. I believe it's a combination of cognitive dissidence and 10 years of non-stop terrorism propaganda spewing from your television. Personally, I haven't watched television in about 5 years.

    I'm living on a planet where roaming VIPR teams, Backscatter x-ray vans, FAST mobile modules and TSA agents now conduct warrantless searches. I'm living on a planet where our government can now declare anyone an "enemy combatant" and deny them due process. I'm living on a planet where you as a veteran are now considered a domestic terrorist. I'm living on a planet where the military has exercised powers that maintain "law and order" on non-federal property. I'm living in reality. Where are you living? Insinuating that I'm mocking your service to the country and community is ridiculous. I'm just pointing out that which you choose to ignore.

     
  • Patrick W Maple posted at 11:01 am on Sun, Nov 20, 2011.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1805

    mr l: The Fourth Amendment (Amendment IV) to the United States Constitution is the part of the Bill of Rights which guards against unreasonable searches and seizures, along with requiring any warrant to be judicially sanctioned and supported by probable cause. It was adopted as a response to the abuse of the writ of assistance, which is a type of general search warrant, in the American Revolution. Search and arrest should be limited in scope according to specific information supplied to the issuing court, usually by a law enforcement officer, who has sworn by it. Are you mocking my service to my country and community? Not a wise choice. Yes my several oaths did. Are you on another planet or something?

    Which version do you refer to:?
    Posse Comitatus Act, a United States federal law prohibiting members of the military from exercising powers that maintain "law and order" on non-federal property
    Posse comitatus (common law), the authority of a law officer to conscript any able-bodied males to assist him
    Posse Comitatus (organization), a loosely organized far right social movement that opposes the United States federal government and believes in localism

    Or maybe you have been watching too much TV...
    Posse Comitatus", a ninth-season episode of the TV series JAG
    Posse Comitatus" (The West Wing), the third season finale of the TV series The West Wing

    Otherwise...state your complaint a bit clearer...or find someone who can do it for you. I said what I would do...and did...you?

     
  • Andrew Liebich posted at 10:12 am on Sun, Nov 20, 2011.

    Andrew Liebich Posts: 2999

    Mr. Maple tells me... "I know little of you or most of the other people here...however, it is enough for me to act when you are attacked. Whether you think so or not we are all in this together and are all being attacked. Suffice it to say I WILL and DID stand up for my country...how about you?"

    You are correct about two things Mr. Maple. You do know little about me and we are ALL being attacked. ALL of us.

    Where were you as a self proclaimed defender of our country when habeus corpus, posse comittatus, and the 4th ammendment were eviscerated? Did your oath not include enemies both foreign and domestic?

     
  • MARK TROVINGER posted at 7:30 am on Sun, Nov 20, 2011.

    MARK TROVINGER Posts: 204

    Well said Mr. Maple.

     
  • Patrick W Maple posted at 6:52 am on Sun, Nov 20, 2011.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1805

    mr l: You remind me of the man who kept complaining that his thumb kept hurting every time he hit it with a hammer...quit hitting it with a hammer was the answer. I am kind of like the US...I put up with idiots and attackers...until it affects my family and friends and my country...then I act. 9/11 was enough for the US and me. I didn't know one person in those towers but they were US citizens and that was enough for me.

    I know little of you or most of the other people here...however, it is enough for me to act when you are attacked. Whether you think so or not we are all in this together and are all being attacked. Suffice it to say I WILL and DID stand up for my country...how about you?

     
  • Andrew Liebich posted at 12:46 am on Sun, Nov 20, 2011.

    Andrew Liebich Posts: 2999

    "You do not know what I know or do not." -Darrell

    Fair enough statement. I'll tell you what I know....

    I know that you continue to refer to SAG programs as vaper capers despite the fact that 195 countries have signed a UN Treaty banning them.

    and... I know that to this day you have not provided 1 piece of evidence that substantiates the "official story" of 9/11.

    and... I know Mr. Maple doesn't understand that an event that occurs AFTER an invasion can't justify THE invasion.

     
  • Patrick W Maple posted at 2:21 pm on Sat, Nov 19, 2011.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1805

    Agitate...THAT was the word I was looking for! No you can NOT use the Nz word here.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 10:52 am on Sat, Nov 19, 2011.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Andrew stated... The fact is you know nothing about 9/11or Stratospheric Aerosol Geo-Engineering because you don't want to know. Willful ignorance isn't a substitute for doing actual research.

    You do not know what I know or do not. I simply think discussing anything with you in particular is a waste of time. You have proven time and again that you read information and draw false conclusions consistently.

    Pat takes his time to offer truth... you simply want to agitate with no constructive outcome. I appreciate Pat's Post as it offers reality. Your posts do not.

     
  • Patrick W Maple posted at 9:57 am on Sat, Nov 19, 2011.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1805

    mr l: Intelligent people investigate; morons castigate. As you?

     
  • Patrick W Maple posted at 9:56 am on Sat, Nov 19, 2011.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1805

    I forgot you can use the Nz word.

     
  • Patrick W Maple posted at 9:56 am on Sat, Nov 19, 2011.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1805

    mr h: I can only say...wow. Wall Street and Adolph Hitler? I don't even know where to begin. AH...I have read The Mind of Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf and several other books on this nut trying to figure out how someone like him could rise to power the way he did.

    From a conversation with one of my aunts who was a German citizen during the war and was forced to join the Nz Youth Movement: AH hated the Jews because of their monetary and business influence in the country (and for several other reasons)...he began a class-warfare campaign against them with the help of a bunch of punks and thugs in around 1932 (read AH Secret Genocide) and slow began expanding his use of murder and intimidation to gain total control.

    Through your cynical assertion you would necessarily have to implicate FDR and many others who came to the rescue of Europe. Why would Wall Street limit itself to helping the Germans when the Jews held all the money? Why would Wall Street limit itself to helping only Germany when the rest of Europe was just as lucrative a cause?

    This one is too much! Read something/someone besides conspiracy theorists.

     
  • Patrick W Maple posted at 9:43 am on Sat, Nov 19, 2011.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1805

    mr h: Yes, I did know he was on the Warren Commission. Ford said the CIA destroyed or kept from investigators critical secrets connected to the 1963 assassination of President John F. Kennedy. He said the commission's probe put "certain classified and potentially damaging operations in danger of being exposed". The CIA's reaction, he added, "was to hide or destroy some information, which can easily be misinterpreted as collusion in JFK's assassination.

    Ford secretly provided the FBI with information about two of his fellow commission members, both of whom were doubtful about the FBI's conclusions about the assassination. The FBI position was that President Kennedy was shot by a single gunman firing from the Texas Book Depository. Another 1963 memo released in 1978 stated that Representative Ford volunteered to advise the FBI regarding the content of the commission's deliberations if his involvement with the bureau was kept confidential, a condition which the bureau approved. Ford was an outspoken proponent of the single-assassin theory (proponent means he believed it). Which I think has been fairly well documented and proven. Your point is?

     
  • Patrick W Maple posted at 9:36 am on Sat, Nov 19, 2011.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1805

    mr h: Saloth Sar was born on May 19, 1925 Pol Pot (the name he took from the term Politique Potentielle) became leader of Cambodia on April 17, 1975.He was a Cambodian Maoist revolutionary who led the Khmer Rouge from 1963 until his death in 1998. From 1976 to 1979, he served as the Prime Minister of Democratic Kampuchea. He also led a genocide against western culture and capitalism in Cambodia. During the Khmer Rouge regime, and a period of time directly after, the Khmer Rouge was recognised by UN as a legitimate government, and therefore held a seat at the UN.[51] While many leaders at the UN attempted to appeal this, the majority allowed the Khmer Rouge (later titled "Democratic Republic of Kampuchea") to keep their seat for 15 years following the genocide.

    Gerald Ford: With the conquest of South Vietnam by North Vietnam nine months into his presidency, U.S. involvement in Vietnam essentially ended.In December 1974, months after Ford took office, North Vietnamese forces invaded the province of Phuoc Long. General Trần Văn Trà sought to gauge any South Vietnamese or American response to the invasion, as well as to solve logistical issues before proceeding with the invasion.

    As North Vietnamese forces advanced, Ford requested aid for South Vietnam in a $522 million aid package. The funds had been promised by the Nixon administration, but Congress voted against the proposal by a wide margin.[92] Senator Jacob Javits offered "...large sums for evacuation, but not one nickel for military aid".[92] President Thieu resigned on April 21, 1975, publicly blaming the lack of support from the United States for the fall of his country.[105] Two days later, on April 23, Ford gave a speech at Tulane University. In that speech, he announced that the Vietnam War was over "...as far as America is concerned". The announcement was met with thunderous applause. (Credit above to Wikipedia)

    When and where exactly did Ford send our bombers?

     
  • Andrew Liebich posted at 9:44 pm on Fri, Nov 18, 2011.

    Andrew Liebich Posts: 2999

    Daniel,

    Consider your audience. These guys have no clue what you are talking about. I admire your patience.

     
  • daniel hutchins posted at 8:55 pm on Fri, Nov 18, 2011.

    daniel hutchins Posts: 1339

    Pat Maple: Howard Ambruster referenced below wrote a famous book "Treason's Peace, " German dyes and American dupes.

    Easy to find in google. All over the place.

     
  • daniel hutchins posted at 8:31 pm on Fri, Nov 18, 2011.

    daniel hutchins Posts: 1339

    Nixon fell on the sword because in an impeachment trial, someone would have asked Nixon, "Why did you burgalize the Watergate hotel when it was already given that you would have won the election by a landslide?"

    In this case, Nixon would have avoided a response that the democrats possessed incriminating evidence at the JFK assassination.

    Who would have been implicated in the democrats pictures? Two of the Watergate burglars themselves, who were photographed at Daly Plaza.

     
  • daniel hutchins posted at 8:28 pm on Fri, Nov 18, 2011.

    daniel hutchins Posts: 1339

    Pat Maple: Again, on Gerald Ford.

    Did you know that he was on the Warren Commission?

    Critical to the concealment of a shooter from the front of JFK was the autopsy report, and the location of the exit wound in the back of Kennedy's shirt.

    Easy to hide the body after it was gone, but there was a little matter of the hole in the shirt, clearly an exit wound showing that the bullet had entered at the front of Kennedy's neck, and exited at the 3rd rib in the rear.

    Gerald Ford played a pivotal role in concealing this critical forensic evidence, and Ford was even questioned on his alteration of the evidence in the report. If I were a woman married to him, knowing that he had concealed the assassination of JFK, I'd take up drinking.

    Following Nixon's betrayal of the Rockefellars who wanted to be partnered as a vice presidential running mate, and Nixon's selection of Spiro T. Agnew, who was forced to resign, Nixon demonstrated his loyalty by the appointment of one particular Senator who had intimate knowledge of the concealment of the assassination. Eventually, Ford selected a Rockefellar as Vice President, which was exactly what the Rockefellars had asked for in the beginning.

     
  • daniel hutchins posted at 8:21 pm on Fri, Nov 18, 2011.

    daniel hutchins Posts: 1339

    Pat Maple: On the rise to power of Adolf Hitler:

    A chemical engineer named Howard Ambruster was present in German business affairs involving Wall Street through two world wars, and he was intimately aware of German business affairs over a period of 35-40 years involving Interessen gemeinshaft Farben (I.G. Farben for short.)

    In simple words: Wall Street was partnered with the Germans through both world wars, and it is quite a bit misleading to credit the United States for stopping Hitler when it was also the United States that assisted his rise to power.

     
  • daniel hutchins posted at 8:16 pm on Fri, Nov 18, 2011.

    daniel hutchins Posts: 1339

    Pat Maple:

    (Do you remember a white-haired "Lady Bird" in Woodbridge, 9 years ago? "Lady Bird" was one who enjoyed "bird watching.")

    Anyway, I can't keep quiet on your assessments of Pol Pot, not to mention Adolf Hitler.

    You may recall that the rise to power of Pol Pot was made possible by American bombing of Cambodia during the Ford Administration. I ask you to choose,

    either:

    1) Gerald Ford was so dumb and stupid that he was not able to predict that the Pol Pot forces were not affected by the bombing and that the American bombing would open the door for Pol Pot to seize power to establish a perfect Utopian society.

    2) Gerald Ford and his advisers were not so dumb and stupid.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 8:02 pm on Fri, Nov 18, 2011.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Andrew stated...Mr. Maple, There comes a time in every life when one has to accept things...

    LOL ... Exactly Andrew ! You need to accept that 9/11 and vapor capers are settled and resolved... its time Andrew... take your own advise.

     
  • Andrew Liebich posted at 7:06 pm on Fri, Nov 18, 2011.

    Andrew Liebich Posts: 2999

    Mr. Maple,

    There comes a time in every life when one has to accept things he or she can’t understand. Remember, the cure for apathy is comprehension...

    READ: http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h111-645

    LISTEN: http://youtu.be/EbguIBIh1qQ

     
  • Patrick W Maple posted at 4:03 pm on Fri, Nov 18, 2011.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1805

    Are you kidding me???? We have to use the German Army instead of Na.. to describe the people who murdered millions of people??????

     
  • Patrick W Maple posted at 4:00 pm on Fri, Nov 18, 2011.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1805

    mr l: Have you ever been to a Concentration Camp? I have...please don't make light of it lest you end up in one...the German Army didn't have a problem sending people like you and ms lee to them or worse...nor did they have a problem sending Germans to them...for that matter sending anyone. .

     
  • Patrick W Maple posted at 3:55 pm on Fri, Nov 18, 2011.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1805

    ms l: The reference was that you and mr l were married in your beliefs and words...the kl reference could have been ak or ka or lk or ll...however that was not necessary because you in your defined wisdom figured out that it was about you...good job! Now, grow up.

     
  • Patrick W Maple posted at 3:54 pm on Fri, Nov 18, 2011.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1805

    mr l: Thank you for being awake...I know exactly what a parable is...not all of them are fictitious...however, knowing that Mr. Niemoller was still alive (since he wrote it)...it was not he for whom hey came or took...therefore it was a fictitious statement. It was a story (or in your own words an illustration)...that was not true...for him.

     
  • Andrew Liebich posted at 7:10 am on Fri, Nov 18, 2011.

    Andrew Liebich Posts: 2999

    Mr. Maple, A parable is a short fictitious story that illustrates a moral attitude or a religious principle. Niemoller's statement was not fictitious. Today, Niemoller's statement is on display in the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum only the word "Communists" has been substituted with "Socialists" Mr. Trovinger would most likely call this a coincidence.

    The statement was a warning about the dangers of political apathy. The cure for apathy is comprehension. With that said, I'll demonstrate one way Niemoller's statement can be applied to present day America... Try listening to the message rather than attacking the messenger this time...

    First they came for the lemonade stands, and I didn't say anything, because I didn't have a lemonade stand.
    http://youtu.be/04MNf1YdNxI

    Then they came for the organic foods and raw milk, and I didn't say anything, because I didn't have organic foods and raw milk.
    http://youtu.be/gOups0dfdwM

    Then they came for the vitamins, and I didn't say anything, because I didn't have any vitamins.
    http://youtu.be/lyLI8UVdTzQ

    Then they came for the gold, but I didn't say anything, because I had no gold.
    http://youtu.be/grpH_zF5BSA

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 5:18 am on Fri, Nov 18, 2011.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    To clarify in my post below, when I stated “Perfect image of Klee..just copy and paste hon”...perfect!” what is perfect is that Klee saying this to Pat in a condescending disrespectful way is Klee's style... This was a perfect example to display “who” Klee is.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 9:09 pm on Thu, Nov 17, 2011.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    K Lee stated ...just copy and paste hon...

    Perfect image of Klee..just copy and paste hon...perfect !!!!

     
  • Kim Lee posted at 5:37 pm on Thu, Nov 17, 2011.

    Kim Lee Posts: 1798

    Pat Maple: Are you having trouble spelling my name? LOL! You poor man.... just copy and paste hon.

     
  • Kim Lee posted at 5:35 pm on Thu, Nov 17, 2011.

    Kim Lee Posts: 1798

    Darrell wrote, "Pat... you can be my mouthpiece anytime."

    Uh, okay... whatever floats your boat.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 3:35 pm on Thu, Nov 17, 2011.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Pat... you can be my mouthpiece anytime.

     
  • Patrick W Maple posted at 1:09 pm on Thu, Nov 17, 2011.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1805

    Andrew...ms lee...doesn't date. Darrell is correct I don't need a mouthpiece...nor he...but were I to let someone speak for me he would be a good choice.

    Just to finish this up mr and ms lk...remember the parable of Martin Niemoller..."First they came for the...then they came for me...there was no one left to speak out for me".

    The ironic part is that there will always be people like Misters Baumbach, Kinderman, Trovinger, Nelson, Musto and myself who WILL speak outon your behalf no matter how you treat us. Sad how often irony is wasted on people like you.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 9:14 am on Thu, Nov 17, 2011.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    K Lee stated...Again, Darrell, it was Patrick that made the comment. Are you his mouthpiece now?

    No K Lee, I am not interested in being a mouthpiece for anyone. Especially Pat who is very capable of articulating his thoughts and ideas better than most.

    I only made the comment to you out of respect of your intelligence. I thought if you used what nature gave you, you could take 3 seconds and answer your own question. I thought you were simply lazy and wanted to avoid thinking for yourself.

     
  • Andrew Liebich posted at 8:50 am on Thu, Nov 17, 2011.

    Andrew Liebich Posts: 2999

    K Lee, Apparently you were correct, "he's just another wackadoo" like Darrell. LOL

     
  • Patrick W Maple posted at 6:47 am on Thu, Nov 17, 2011.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1805

    ms lee: Duh...yep i does lib in d logkabin yous talfk bout..me an my furteen chillin.
    Buts i does reed n kin seee d writin on da walls. 9/11, Ft hooodd, New Yoork city...fo times and a cople of odder (sory uder) times.

    mr l: Whine about something else. How many people have they dug up in mass graves?
    You know who the Iraquis hate the most? Liberals.

     
  • Andrew Liebich posted at 1:16 am on Thu, Nov 17, 2011.

    Andrew Liebich Posts: 2999

    "1 million...Pure BS!"

    Well, not according to a study, published in the prestigious medical journal The Lancet, that estimated over 600,000 Iraqis had been killed as a result of the invasion as of July 2006. Iraqis have continued to be killed since then. By early 2008, the best estimate, based on extrapolations and replications of the Lancet study, was that 1.2 million Iraqis had died as a consequence of the war. This figure has not, to my knowledge, been reported in any mass media outlet in the United States. The estimate that over a million Iraqis have died received independent confirmation from a prestigious British polling agency in January 2008. Opinion Research Business estimated that the death toll between March 2003 and August 2007 was 1,033,000.

    "As for Iraq and Afganistan, I don't care to look up and give you any detailed examples of their rhetoric towards the US."

    As if rhetoric somehow justifies invasion.

    "Do you think that when you saw the leader of Al Quida bragging about his actions and the plans for future terrorism, that he was just pulling your leg with a joke?"

    Are you referring to Osama bin Laden? If so, the “official Bush Administration version of 9-11” said no Afghans were involved in 9-11. and... Osama bin Laden denied involvement more than once, was not wanted by the FBI for this crime, and was offered up by the Afghan Government to a Third Country for trial (an offer rejected by the Americans). Perhaps instead you were referring to Anwar al-Awlaki, the American citizen Obama recently assassinated without due process? Who do you believe is the leader of the boogyman CIAeda? al-Awlaki who dined at the Pentagon after 9/11 or bin Laden who 9 heads of state said was dead in December of 2001? I hate to guess. Please clarify.

    "Were the terrorist training camps in Afganistan really nothing more than boy scout summer camps?"
    Under the Reagan adminstration Taliban summer camp was held right at the White House rose garden. US foreign policy had evolved towards the unconditional support and endorsement of the Islamic "freedom fighters". In today's World, the "freedom fighters" are labelled "Islamic terrorists". In the Pashtun language, the word "Taliban" means "Students", or graduates of the madrasahs (places of learning or coranic schools) set up by the Wahhabi missions from Saudi Arabia, with the support of the CIA.

    Mr. Trovinger and Mr. Maple are clearly suffering from Islamaphobia and mainstream media manipulation. I guess my question will never be answered and I'll just have to wait for the murderers, whatever that means...

     
  • Kim Lee posted at 12:43 am on Thu, Nov 17, 2011.

    Kim Lee Posts: 1798

    Again, Darrell, it was Patrick that made the comment. Are you his mouthpiece now? If Patrick Maple is so offended by a question about his bizarre comments then perhaps he should not post them here. I'm not going to guess what Patrick is so paranoid about. He's talking about murders in my front yard. What the heck? Maybe he's just another wackadoo like you. LOL! I have a feeling that Patrick has a stockpile and is living in a cabin in the woods somewhere.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 6:52 pm on Wed, Nov 16, 2011.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    K Lee stated...Why, Patrick, what do you think will happen?

    Think K Lee... it will come to you...

     
  • MARK TROVINGER posted at 5:04 pm on Wed, Nov 16, 2011.

    MARK TROVINGER Posts: 204

    First of all Mr. Liebich your exagerations are nothing more than that. You say, "There are over 1 million dead civilians that probably disagree with your assertion that they have been "liberated." You might call an enemy force using weapons against you, civilians, but the fact is that they are an enemy force intent upon killing you as ordered to do so by their governments. Yes there have been civilians killed in the conflicts. 1 million...Pure BS! If this was true, we would have killed a hundred times more military combatants in the process. At that rate there would not be any human life left in Irag or Afganistan.

    Why haven't we gone after Chavez? Could it be that he is all bark and no signs of actually having any bite capabilities? To the best of anyone's knowledge, he says he wants to cut off our oil supply and cripple the US economy. Has he accomplished this....NO. Has he ever said that any terrorist act was ordered by him.....NO. Has it ever been determined that he was responsible for ordering any terrorist acts against the US....NO. Chavez is nothing more than a blowhard and therefore there is no need to invade Venezuela to secure or protect anything.

    As for Iraq and Afganistan, I don't care to look up and give you any detailed examples of their rhetoric towards the US. Most of us....at least those paying attention....had seen the news reports and the interviews with those country's leaders making these threats publicly. You look up any public comments by those governments and find just one where they would be saying that they want to be our friend and that they want to live peaceably with our allies. You won't find any.
    Do you think that when you saw the leader of Al Quida bragging about his actions and the plans for future terrorism, that he was just pulling your leg with a joke? When you saw the leader of the Taliban, the functional government of Afganistan at the time, praising Osama Bin Laden for his actions and vowing to support his future plans, that this was also just a joke? Were the terrorist training camps in Afganistan really nothing more than boy scout summer camps? I don't think so and no rational person would think this to be true.

    So instead of acting niave and claiming that these country's governments were not threatening the US, prove to us that they weren't saying these threats at every opportunity. And of course, even though you don't believe that 9/11 had anything to do with terrorists supported by these governments, explain to us why these governments praised the actions and took credit for the results. Of course, don't respond if you consider these to be just harmless joking by our good old buddies in the middle east.

     
  • Kim Lee posted at 4:38 pm on Wed, Nov 16, 2011.

    Kim Lee Posts: 1798

    Patrick Maple wrote, "Sit in that front yard of yours (if you have one)that Mr Trovinger wrote about and just wait for the murders...they will be there."

    Why, Patrick, what do you think will happen?

     
  • Patrick W Maple posted at 3:52 pm on Wed, Nov 16, 2011.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1805

    Pol Pot killed over 3 million, Idi Amin over 3 million, Stalin over 12 million, Hitler over 10 million...and on and on...the US spoke up and responded...before more were killed. Sit in that front yard of yours (if you have one)that Mr Trovinger wrote about and just wait for the murders...they will be there.

     
  • Andrew Liebich posted at 3:38 pm on Wed, Nov 16, 2011.

    Andrew Liebich Posts: 2999

    Thank-you for attempting to answer the question Mark. I sincerely appreciate it.

    You stated that these countries made threats against the U.S. but you didn't mention any of these threats specifically. Who in the governments of these countries threatened the U.S.? When were these alleged threats made? You were quite vague.

    Chavez threatens the U.S. all the time. Why haven't we invaded Venezuela?

    P.S. There are over 1 million dead civilians that probably disagree with your assertion that they have been "liberated."

     
  • MARK TROVINGER posted at 2:09 pm on Wed, Nov 16, 2011.

    MARK TROVINGER Posts: 204

    Mr. Liebich to answer your one simple question. Prior to the US every sending any troops to Iraq and Afganistan, these countries made threats against the security of the United States and its allies. These threats, didn't come from the people of these countries but from the official governments of these countries. These were threats to disrupt the peace within the US by the use of promises of terrorism on US soil and the dsiruption of the economy of the US by disrupting the flow of oil to the US. These countries also made violent threats to cause problems within other countries in the area that were allies of the United States.

    If one was to believe that the only time you use your military is to respond to physical action that has already been done to you, they would be a fool. When you have an enemy nation officially making threats against your nation and you see that they have the ability to act on their threats, you go in first to stop the threats from being put into action. When you have attacks on the US as in the case of the USS Cole, resulting in US deaths, you take the threats seriously. When you have governments taking responsibility for terrorist attacks in the US and other countries, you take the threats seriously. Even you will agree that we did not send our military to attack the people of these countries, but to remove the official governments making the threats. Most of the average people in these countries probably appreciate not having a dictator or radical group having total control over their lives like it was prior to our intervention.

    The military mission of the United States was to reduce the threat to our safety and security. At the same time our military was able to allow the peoples of these countries to be able to have the freedom to make their own decisions, represent themselves, and no longer be under the control of an oppressive dictator or the radical oppressive group that allowed them no freedoms at all.

    Now, you can continue to think that the US is the agressor or you can think that the US is defending its security of the US and the security of the region. The choice is yours. Even if you want to condem your own country's actions, the opinon of the liberated peoples of the these countries, would not be condemnation at all.

     
  • Andrew Liebich posted at 12:57 pm on Wed, Nov 16, 2011.

    Andrew Liebich Posts: 2999

    One simple question, that's all I asked. Why are you completely dumbfounded by it?
    .

     
  • Kim Lee posted at 11:03 am on Wed, Nov 16, 2011.

    Kim Lee Posts: 1798

    Mark Trovinger: Great post @ 9:05 am on Thu, Nov 10, 2011. Well said.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 11:01 am on Wed, Nov 16, 2011.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Andrew stated ...What specifically has Iraq or Afghanistan ever done to the United States...

    posted at 7:48 am on Sun, Nov 13, 2011...You first ... Are you stating that no group of people or individuals or government employees from these two countries never did anything to harm our country? That is your position?

    still.... no answer from Andrew...

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 10:58 am on Wed, Nov 16, 2011.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Pat... This ( Andrew's intent) is why I refuse to answer most of Andrew's questions..
    No matter what his answer and responces are, the road leads to issues that "truth" is not a concern... Its like he is playing a Nintendo game and wants to win some sort of contest... Notice he ignored my question but expects his questions to be answered first... I will only answer his questions after he answers mine first.

     
  • Andrew Liebich posted at 8:32 am on Wed, Nov 16, 2011.

    Andrew Liebich Posts: 2999

    Mr. Maple states... "So...everything that occurred BEFORE doesn't count?"

    You did not articulate ANYTHING that happened "BEFORE" dsespite the fact that I asked you to 7 times.

    "You cannot arrest someone for a crime before it happens." says Mr. Maple.

    What do you call this! http://youtu.be/4wqooBmYfQ4

     
  • Patrick W Maple posted at 6:35 am on Wed, Nov 16, 2011.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1805

    So...everything that occurred BEFORE doesn't count? You cannot arrest someone for a crime before it happens...however you can after it does and especially if it continues. Name calling only shows the extent of your ignorance...idiot...is spelled with a d.

     
  • Andrew Liebich posted at 11:31 pm on Tue, Nov 15, 2011.

    Andrew Liebich Posts: 2999

    I asked one simple question.
    "What specifically has Iraq or Afghanistan ever done to the United States?"

    The following statements from Mr. Maple were the ONLY references anyone made concerning Iraq or Afghanistan with one exception, Daniel's post: "Darrell: No, Andrew didn't say that. Andrew asked a question, and if you still think it is a statement, I will ask the same thing. Can anyone name one thing that either Iraq or Afghanistan ever did to the United States? It can't be that they said a cuss word in English. It must be sufficient to justify war."

    Posting the following acts of terrorism as a justification to invade Iraq or Afghanistan when each and every one of these events happened AFTER we invaded is iiotic! Let me break it down for the mentally oblivious. An event that occurs AFTER an invasion can't justify THE invasion.

    May 26, Iraq: a suicide bomber on a motorcycle kills six U.S. soldiers and wounds 18 others in Tarmiya.
    June 24, Iraq: a suicide bomber kills at least 20 people, including three U.S. Marines, at a meeting between sheiks and Americans in Karmah, a town west of Baghdad.
    June 12, Afghanistan: four American servicemen are killed when a roadside bomb explodes near a U.S. military vehicle in Farah Province.
    July 13, Afghanistan: nine U.S.soldiers and at least 15 NATO troops die when Taliban militants boldly attack an American base in Kunar Province, which borders Pakistan. It's the most deadly against U.S. troops in three years.
    Aug. 18 and 19, Afghanistan: as many as 15 suicide bombers backed by about 30 militants attack a U.S. military base, Camp Salerno, in Bamiyan. Fighting between U.S. troops and members of the Taliban rages overnight. No U.S. troops are killed.
    And last but certainly not least:
    2009
    Feb. 9, Iraq: a suicide bomber kills four American soldiers and their Iraqi translator near a police checkpoint.
    April 10, Iraq: a suicide attack kills five American soldiers and two Iraqi policemen.
    Dec. 30, Iraq: a suicide bomber kills eight Americans civilians, seven of them CIA agents, at a base in Afghanistan. It's the deadliest attack on the agency since 9/11. The attacker is reportedly a double agent from Jordan who was acting on behalf of al-Qaeda.

     
  • Patrick W Maple posted at 3:05 pm on Tue, Nov 15, 2011.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1805

    Sir...you have asked and been answered on several occasions...in general stonewalling refers to the asked...you are merely reversing the process.

    Obfuscate: to confuse, disguise, conceal and or complicate or make something obscure or unclear, especially by making it unnecessarily complicated. It does not take a nuclear equation to find that 2+2 equal 4...move on.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 2:17 pm on Mon, Nov 14, 2011.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Andrew stated...Darrell logic... If I don't answer the question I can avoid the truth.

    False... It does not matter if any question you ask is answered since your motive has nothing to do with truth. Truth defined as getting an answer you prefer.
    You game is actually boring... superficial dialogue like yours always is.

     
  • Andrew Liebich posted at 1:34 pm on Mon, Nov 14, 2011.

    Andrew Liebich Posts: 2999

    Mr. Maple,

    An answer demonstrating what Iraq and Afghanistan has done to the United States would be acceptable to me.

    The fact of the matter is Iraq and Afghanistan have done NOTHING to the United States.

    If you disagree why are you unable to articulate anything that substantiates your opinion?

     
  • Patrick W Maple posted at 1:24 pm on Mon, Nov 14, 2011.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1805

    No answer will be acceptable to you.

     
  • Andrew Liebich posted at 12:42 pm on Mon, Nov 14, 2011.

    Andrew Liebich Posts: 2999

    Darrell logic... If I don't answer the question I can avoid the truth.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 11:13 am on Mon, Nov 14, 2011.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Andrew stated...Darrell, Truth is always my motive

    Not possible...

     
  • Andrew Liebich posted at 8:54 am on Mon, Nov 14, 2011.

    Andrew Liebich Posts: 2999

    Mr. Maple,
    Please re-read your posts and then tell me where you answered my question, "What specifically has Iraq or Afghanistan ever done to the United States?"

     
  • Andrew Liebich posted at 8:50 am on Mon, Nov 14, 2011.

    Andrew Liebich Posts: 2999

    Darrell, Truth is always my motive.
    I'm interested in hearing what Iraq and Afghanistan did to the United States but for whatever reason you aren't interested in answering. How am I supposed to know what you believe the truth to be when you refuse to answer the question?

    9/11 The truth is 7 of the alleged 9/11 hijackers are alive and well. Of course you won't research this fact for yourself so for argument sake let's assume the official story is true. The official story tells us that 15 of these 19 alleged terrorists were from Saudi Arabia. If so, why did we invade Iraq and Afghanistan?

    P.S. Geo-Engineering derivatives are now openly traded on the Chicago Mercantile Exchange.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 7:52 am on Mon, Nov 14, 2011.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Andrew stated...Really? You have got to be kidding me...

    Unfortunately, truth is never the motive for any on Andew's posts. His 9/11 and Vapor Caper concerns says it all.

    It is Andrew that is kidding everyone.

     
  • Patrick W Maple posted at 6:40 am on Mon, Nov 14, 2011.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1805

    Mr L: Logic: Reasoning...judgement...sense (does it make sense)...common sense...it is like adding two plus two...if you want to fight about the answer while wearing a blindfold...swing away. You will lose.

    I notice in your posts you can't give others a foothold on logic...which tells me you are slipping...just asking questions isn't enough...put forth your solutions or ask others for theirs...which most people are willing to do. Dig through the verbage and maybe you will find the gem.

     
  • Andrew Liebich posted at 10:04 pm on Sun, Nov 13, 2011.

    Andrew Liebich Posts: 2999

    Seriously? I asked the same question 3 times but nobody answered the question.

    In Darrell logic this translates into "He just plays games."

    In Mark logic this translates into, "you did a fine job answering the question."

    In Patrick logic this translates into, "what has the US done to Iraq or Afghanistan?"

    Really? You have got to be kidding me...


     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 5:17 pm on Sun, Nov 13, 2011.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Pat... the reason I asked Andrew to answer my question first is that I was attempting to save time. I knew it did not matter how good of an answer you gave, nothing would be acceptable to him. He just plays games.

     
  • Patrick W Maple posted at 2:13 pm on Sun, Nov 13, 2011.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1805

    History doesn't count? So what serial killers in 1999 shouldn't be included in the 2009 murders?

     
  • Patrick W Maple posted at 2:10 pm on Sun, Nov 13, 2011.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1805

    Mr L: In the vein of your thoughts: the middle east countries consider us terrorists...what has the US done to Iraq or Afghanistan?

     
  • Andrew Liebich posted at 1:48 pm on Sun, Nov 13, 2011.

    Andrew Liebich Posts: 2999

    Mr. Trovinger, It's THEIR oil.

     
  • Andrew Liebich posted at 1:45 pm on Sun, Nov 13, 2011.

    Andrew Liebich Posts: 2999

    Good Grief! Yes, throughout history here have been many acts of terrorism but I asked "What specifically has Iraq or Afghanistan ever done to the United States?"

    I'm interested in hearing what Iraq or Afghanistan did to justify our invasion of their countries. I'll try one more time, "What specifically has Iraq or Afghanistan ever done to the United States?"

     
  • MARK TROVINGER posted at 1:01 pm on Sun, Nov 13, 2011.

    MARK TROVINGER Posts: 204

    Mr. Maple you did a fine job answering the question. Very good examples.

    If we go back to the mission statement of the DOD..... "The mission of the Department of Defense is to provide the military forces needed to deter war and to protect the security of our country." It should also be clear that the DOD is not just here to retaliate when some country does something bad to the US. The mission statement does say, "protect the security of our country". This means that sometimes in order to protect the security of the United States, our military might have to get involved somewhere just to make sure that our security is continually protected.

    Some people have always complained that the only reason we are involved in the wars in the mid-east is because of oil. Let's assume that this is a correct statement and nobody in those countries actually harmed the US or anyone from the US. When you have countries making statements that they will do everything possible to cut off the flow of oil to the US to cripple us, you must consider the effect that this would have on the security of the United States. In that situation, our military would be called up to make sure that our national security and abilities are not crippled by an oil shortage. This might result in intervention by our military to insure that his doesn't happen. This would be a perfect example of the last part of the DOD mission statement that says, " and to protect the security of our country".

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 12:30 pm on Sun, Nov 13, 2011.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Pat.... I imagine that D & A does not think what you posted is harmful.... just my guess

    Great post!

     
  • Patrick W Maple posted at 12:12 pm on Sun, Nov 13, 2011.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1805

    I suppose ignorance is bliss...when you are dead!

     
  • Patrick W Maple posted at 12:12 pm on Sun, Nov 13, 2011.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1805

    And last but certainly not least:
    2009
    Feb. 9, Iraq: a suicide bomber kills four American soldiers and their Iraqi translator near a police checkpoint.
    April 10, Iraq: a suicide attack kills five American soldiers and two Iraqi policemen.
    June 1, Little Rock, Arkansas: Abdulhakim Muhammed, a Muslim convert from Memphis, Tennessee, is charged with shooting two soldiers outside a military recruiting center. One is killed and the other is wounded. In a January 2010 letter to the judge hearing his case, Muhammed asked to change his plea from not guilty to guilty, claimed ties to al-Qaeda, and called the shooting a jihadi attack "to fight those who wage war on Islam and Muslims."
    Dec. 25: A Nigerian man on a flight from Amsterdam to Detroit attempted to ignite an explosive device hidden in his underwear. The explosive device that failed to detonate was a mixture of powder and liquid that did not alert security personnel in the airport. The alleged bomber, Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab, told officials later that he was directed by the terrorist group Al Qaeda. The suspect was already on the government's watch list when he attempted the bombing; his father, a respected Nigerian banker, had told the U.S. government that he was worried about his son's increased extremism.
    Dec. 30, Iraq: a suicide bomber kills eight Americans civilians, seven of them CIA agents, at a base in Afghanistan. It's the deadliest attack on the agency since 9/11. The attacker is reportedly a double agent from Jordan who was acting on behalf of al-Qaeda.


    Read more: Terrorist Attacks in the U.S. or Against Americans — Infoplease.com http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0001454.html#ixzz1dcM1bmDc

    I don't have any more patience...nor can I turn my cheek again...the last guy that hit me (my country) paid the price.

     
  • Patrick W Maple posted at 12:09 pm on Sun, Nov 13, 2011.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1805

    A couple more from a couple of years ago...maybe you think these are justified?
    2009
    Feb. 9, Iraq: a suicide bomber kills four American soldiers and their Iraqi translator near a police checkpoint.
    April 10, Iraq: a suicide attack kills five American soldiers and two Iraqi policemen.
    June 1, Little Rock, Arkansas: Abdulhakim Muhammed, a Muslim convert from Memphis, Tennessee, is charged with shooting two soldiers outside a military recruiting center. One is killed and the other is wounded. In a January 2010 letter to the judge hearing his case, Muhammed asked to change his plea from not guilty to guilty, claimed ties to al-Qaeda, and called the shooting a jihadi attack "to fight those who wage war on Islam and Muslims."
    Dec. 25: A Nigerian man on a flight from Amsterdam to Detroit attempted to ignite an explosive device hidden in his underwear. The explosive device that failed to detonate was a mixture of powder and liquid that did not alert security personnel in the airport. The alleged bomber, Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab, told officials later that he was directed by the terrorist group Al Qaeda. The suspect was already on the government's watch list when he attempted the bombing; his father, a respected Nigerian banker, had told the U.S. government that he was worried about his son's increased extremism.
    Dec. 30, Iraq: a suicide bomber kills eight Americans civilians, seven of them CIA agents, at a base in Afghanistan. It's the deadliest attack on the agency since 9/11. The attacker is reportedly a double agent from Jordan who was acting on behalf of al-Qaeda.

     
  • Patrick W Maple posted at 12:08 pm on Sun, Nov 13, 2011.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1805

    Ooops one more:
    2005
    Nov. 9, Amman, Jordan: suicide bombers hit 3 American hotels, Radisson, Grand Hyatt, and Days Inn, in Amman, Jordan, killing 57. Al-Qaeda claimed responsibility.
    2006
    Sept. 13, Damascus, Syria: an attack by four gunman on the American embassy is foiled.
    2007
    Jan. 12, Athens, Greece: the U.S. embassy is fired on by an anti-tank missile causing damage but no injuries.
    Dec. 11, Algeria: more than 60 people are killed, including 11 United Nations staff members, when Al Qaeda terrorists detonate two car bombs near Algeria's Constitutional Council and the United Nations offices.
    2008
    May 26, Iraq: a suicide bomber on a motorcycle kills six U.S. soldiers and wounds 18 others in Tarmiya.
    June 24, Iraq: a suicide bomber kills at least 20 people, including three U.S. Marines, at a meeting between sheiks and Americans in Karmah, a town west of Baghdad.
    June 12, Afghanistan: four American servicemen are killed when a roadside bomb explodes near a U.S. military vehicle in Farah Province.
    July 13, Afghanistan: nine U.S.soldiers and at least 15 NATO troops die when Taliban militants boldly attack an American base in Kunar Province, which borders Pakistan. It's the most deadly against U.S. troops in three years.
    Aug. 18 and 19, Afghanistan: as many as 15 suicide bombers backed by about 30 militants attack a U.S. military base, Camp Salerno, in Bamiyan. Fighting between U.S. troops and members of the Taliban rages overnight. No U.S. troops are killed.
    Sept. 16, Yemen: a car bomb and a rocket strike the U.S. embassy in Yemen as staff arrived to work, killing 16 people, including 4 civilians. At least 25 suspected al-Qaeda militants are arrested for the attack.
    Nov. 26, India: in a series of attacks on several of Mumbai's landmarks and commercial hubs that are popular with Americans and other foreign tourists, including at least two five-star hotels, a hospital, a train station, and a cinema. About 300 people are wounded and nearly 190 people die, including at least 5 Americans.

     
  • Patrick W Maple posted at 12:07 pm on Sun, Nov 13, 2011.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1805

    Just one more:
    2002
    June 14, Karachi, Pakistan: bomb explodes outside American consulate in Karachi, Pakistan, killing 12. Linked to al-Qaeda.
    20031
    May 12, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: suicide bombers kill 34, including 8 Americans, at housing compounds for Westerners. Al-Qaeda suspected.
    2004
    May 29–31, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: terrorists attack the offices of a Saudi oil company in Khobar, Saudi Arabia, take foreign oil workers hostage in a nearby residential compound, leaving 22 people dead including one American.
    June 11–19, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: terrorists kidnap and execute Paul Johnson Jr., an American, in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. 2 other Americans and BBC cameraman killed by gun attacks.
    Dec. 6, Jeddah, Saudi Arabia: terrorists storm the U.S. consulate, killing 5 consulate employees. 4 terrorists were killed by Saudi security.
    2005
    Nov. 9, Amman, Jordan: suicide bombers hit 3 American hotels, Radisson, Grand Hyatt, and Days Inn, in Amman, Jordan, killing 57. Al-Qaeda claimed responsibility.
    2006
    Sept. 13, Damascus, Syria: an attack by four gunman on the American embassy is foiled.
    2007
    Jan. 12, Athens, Greece: the U.S. embassy is fired on by an anti-tank missile causing damage but no injuries.
    Dec. 11, Algeria: more than 60 people are killed, including 11 United Nations staff members, when Al Qaeda terrorists detonate two car bombs near Algeria's Constitutional Council and the United Nations offices.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 12:07 pm on Sun, Nov 13, 2011.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Daniel...I did not say he made a statement. I understand for someone to pose a question, there must be a reason behind it. Before Andrew or your question is answered, it should be made clear what the premise for the question is.

     
  • Patrick W Maple posted at 12:07 pm on Sun, Nov 13, 2011.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1805

    A bit more too:
    1993
    Feb. 26, New York City: bomb exploded in basement garage of World Trade Center, killing 6 and injuring at least 1,040 others. In 1995, militant Islamist Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman and 9 others were convicted of conspiracy charges, and in 1998, Ramzi Yousef, believed to have been the mastermind, was convicted of the bombing. Al-Qaeda involvement is suspected.
    1995
    April 19, Oklahoma City: car bomb exploded outside federal office building, collapsing wall and floors. 168 people were killed, including 19 children and 1 person who died in rescue effort. Over 220 buildings sustained damage. Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols later convicted in the antigovernment plot to avenge the Branch Davidian standoff in Waco, Tex., exactly 2 years earlier. (See Miscellaneous Disasters.)
    Nov. 13, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: car bomb exploded at U.S. military headquarters, killing 5 U.S. military servicemen.
    1996
    June 25, Dhahran, Saudi Arabia: truck bomb exploded outside Khobar Towers military complex, killing 19 American servicemen and injuring hundreds of others. 13 Saudis and a Lebanese, all alleged members of Islamic militant group Hezbollah, were indicted on charges relating to the attack in June 2001.
    1998
    Aug. 7, Nairobi, Kenya, and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania: truck bombs exploded almost simultaneously near 2 U.S. embassies, killing 224 (213 in Kenya and 11 in Tanzania) and injuring about 4,500. 4 men connected with al-Qaeda 2 of whom had received training at al-Qaeda camps inside Afghanistan, were convicted of the killings in May 2001 and later sentenced to life in prison. A federal grand jury had indicted 22 men in connection with the attacks, including Saudi dissident Osama bin Laden, who remained at large.
    2000
    Oct. 12, Aden, Yemen: U.S. Navy destroyer USS Cole heavily damaged when a small boat loaded with explosives blew up alongside it. 17 sailors killed. Linked to Osama bin Laden, or members of al-Qaeda terrorist network.
    2001
    Sept. 11, New York City, Arlington, Va., and Shanksville, Pa.: hijackers crashed 2 commercial jets into twin towers of World Trade Center; 2 more hijacked jets were crashed into the Pentagon and a field in rural Pa. Total dead and missing numbered 2,9921: 2,749 in New York City, 184 at the Pentagon, 40 in Pa., and 19 hijackers. Islamic al-Qaeda terrorist group blamed. (See September 11, 2001: Timeline of Terrorism

     
  • Patrick W Maple posted at 12:06 pm on Sun, Nov 13, 2011.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1805

    A bit more:
    1984
    Sept. 20, east Beirut, Lebanon: truck bomb exploded outside the U.S. embassy annex, killing 24, including 2 U.S. military.
    Dec. 3, Beirut, Lebanon: Kuwait Airways Flight 221, from Kuwait to Pakistan, hijacked and diverted to Tehran. 2 Americans killed.
    1985
    April 12, Madrid, Spain: Bombing at restaurant frequented by U.S. soldiers, killed 18 Spaniards and injured 82.
    June 14, Beirut, Lebanon: TWA Flight 847 en route from Athens to Rome hijacked to Beirut by Hezbollah terrorists and held for 17 days. A U.S. Navy diver executed.
    Oct. 7, Mediterranean Sea: gunmen attack Italian cruise ship, Achille Lauro. One U.S. tourist killed. Hijacking linked to Libya.
    Dec. 18, Rome, Italy, and Vienna, Austria: airports in Rome and Vienna were bombed, killing 20 people, 5 of whom were Americans. Bombing linked to Libya.
    1986
    April 2, Athens, Greece:A bomb exploded aboard TWA flight 840 en route from Rome to Athens, killing 4 Americans and injuring 9.
    April 5, West Berlin, Germany: Libyans bombed a disco frequented by U.S. servicemen, killing 2 and injuring hundreds.
    1988
    Dec. 21, Lockerbie, Scotland: N.Y.-bound Pan-Am Boeing 747 exploded in flight from a terrorist bomb and crashed into Scottish village, killing all 259 aboard and 11 on the ground. Passengers included 35 Syracuse University students and many U.S. military personnel. Libya formally admitted responsibility 15 years later (Aug. 2003) and offered $2.7 billion compensation to victims' families.

     
  • Patrick W Maple posted at 12:05 pm on Sun, Nov 13, 2011.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1805

    Misters L and H:
    1975
    Jan. 24, New York City: bomb set off in historic Fraunces Tavern killed 4 and injured more than 50 people. Puerto Rican nationalist group (FALN) claimed responsibility, and police tied 13 other bombings to the group.
    1979
    Nov. 4, Tehran, Iran: Iranian radical students seized the U.S. embassy, taking 66 hostages. 14 were later released. The remaining 52 were freed after 444 days on the day of President Reagan's inauguration.
    1982–1991
    Lebanon: Thirty US and other Western hostages kidnapped in Lebanon by Hezbollah. Some were killed, some died in captivity, and some were eventually released. Terry Anderson was held for 2,454 days.
    1983
    April 18, Beirut, Lebanon: U.S. embassy destroyed in suicide car-bomb attack; 63 dead, including 17 Americans. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility.
    Oct. 23, Beirut, Lebanon: Shiite suicide bombers exploded truck near U.S. military barracks at Beirut airport, killing 241 marines. Minutes later a second bomb killed 58 French paratroopers in their barracks in West Beirut.
    Dec. 12, Kuwait City, Kuwait: Shiite truck bombers attacked the U.S. embassy and other targets, killing 5 and injuring 80.

     
  • daniel hutchins posted at 10:36 am on Sun, Nov 13, 2011.

    daniel hutchins Posts: 1339

    Also, what did Kosovo ever do to America?

     
  • daniel hutchins posted at 10:35 am on Sun, Nov 13, 2011.

    daniel hutchins Posts: 1339

    Darrell: No, Andrew didn't say that.

    Andrew asked a question, and if you still think it is a statement, I will ask the same thing.

    Can anyone name one thing that either Iraq or Afghanistan ever did to the United States? It can't be that they said a cuss word in English. It must be sufficient to justify war.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 7:48 am on Sun, Nov 13, 2011.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Andrew stated ...What specifically has Iraq or Afghanistan ever done to the United States...

    You first ... Are you stating that no group of people or individuals or government employees from these two countries never did anything to harm our country? That is your position?

     
  • Andrew Liebich posted at 11:41 pm on Sat, Nov 12, 2011.

    Andrew Liebich Posts: 2999

    Mr. Maple, Your opinions are duely noted. Are you ever going to answer my question? What specifically has Iraq or Afghanistan ever done to the United States?

     
  • daniel hutchins posted at 10:18 pm on Sat, Nov 12, 2011.

    daniel hutchins Posts: 1339

    Mark, I sometimes use words that contain more than 2 syllables, so I can understand if you think it's jiberish. I suggest you ask a teacher to explain it to you.

    I hope you had fun writing 300+ words. I don't have time to read yours.

     
  • Patrick W Maple posted at 5:12 pm on Sat, Nov 12, 2011.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1805

    Re-post: Mr L: The anyones are the same people who are in Iran making nuclear bombs. The countries over there are like our states here...there are no boundaries for terrorists...I would harken you back to '72 when I was in Munich...now it is happening here...NO boundaries...so you find them where you must...where they are..when you can and how you can....before they get here.

    If you know that your neighbor is manufacturing meth, heroine, or is harming children, is a serial killer or is in the process of killing someone...what would you do?

    Many of these middle-eastern "countries" without boundaries harbor terrorists, people who would do us harm...have threatened to wipe smaller countries off the map and in actuality have wiped many people off this earth. At some point we as a civilized society must step up to the plate a defend the little guy...lest we have more 9/11s, more Fort Hoods, shoe bombers, underware bombers and more Twin Tower bombings (like the first one).

     
  • Gary Musto posted at 6:18 am on Sat, Nov 12, 2011.

    Gary Musto Posts: 506

    Mark, first of all, thank you for your service, I do not want our military budget slashed I just want it trimmed so that we are able to spend those billions wisely. There certainly some areas that need to be looked at. President Obama has said that when our troops come home from Iraq and Afghanistan there will be huge savings, will wait and see.

    Very informative posts by the way, nice to have a civil discussion without all the name calling and attacks.

     
  • Andrew Liebich posted at 1:11 am on Sat, Nov 12, 2011.

    Andrew Liebich Posts: 2999

    Mr. Maple,

    O.K. It's tomorrow. I asked if you could explain how anyone from Iraq or Afghanistan has harmed us. "Us" meaning the United States. What specifically has either country done to the United States?

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 3:50 pm on Fri, Nov 11, 2011.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Mr Trovinger spewed... I mean stated...
    01. Mr. Hutchins you write so much incomprehensible jiberish
    02.you made no point but to make yourself look like a fool that talks jiberish.
    03.you will be considered by me, and probably most others, as an illterate idiot when you open your mouth
    04. Your jibberish is meaningless and doesn't convey any intelligent thought
    05 You are also an idiot that cannot read or count
    06Too bad that you so much of an ignorant idiot
    07 You can't read, can't write and can't count.
    08.Obviously you are nothing but a joke and solely here in these posts as some sort of bad comedian to be laughed at by the rest of us that are in a serious discussion.


    Hummm... could it be Mr Trovinger does not appreciate Daniels thoughts?
    I many times question Daniels posts, but I have never questioned his intelligence.
    Sorry to read such a poor example of tolerance. Maybe another trip to Hawaii is in order to relax and enjoy life.

     
  • MARK TROVINGER posted at 3:19 pm on Fri, Nov 11, 2011.

    MARK TROVINGER Posts: 204

    Mr. Hutchins you write so much incomprehensible jiberish. You put words into your comments and these words have little or no meaning when combined with the other words in your sentences. You make claims that are not true or accurate and attribute these claims to people that never mentioned them at all. You keep harping about the UN and my beliefs concerning the UN. Sorry, but I have never mentioned the UN in any of my comments.

    You make stupid statements such as, "Mark, that was an official press release.
    Actually, Hillary Clinton's official press release was a contradiction." What was an official press release that you refer to? Are you talking about the mission statement of the DOD. Even as an idiot you should recognize that this is not any press release, it is their published Mission Statement. You open you mouth and refer to Hillary Clinton's press release. Are you so stupid as to not realize that she has made more than one press release in her lifetime? Which press release are you referring to and what is it that this press release was supposed to contradict? You fail to supply the information that is needed for anyone to get your point. So therefore you made no point but to make yourself look like a fool that talks jiberish.

    Until such time as when you can use the English language to communicate a thought, you will be considered by me, and probably most others, as an illterate idiot when you open your mouth. It's so very nice for you to know what you are saying, it's too bad that your incomprehensible jiberish holds no meaning for your readers. I believe that a drunk foreign language speaking person, trying to speak English, would be more easily understood than you.

    Most intelligent writers read what they have written and ask themselves a simple question. That question is "will another person know what I'm trying to convey with the words I've written". Guess you never learned that one. Your jibberish is meaningless and doesn't convey any intelligent thought. It does not make any light bulbs go on in the minds of your readers since you never make any actual points to the reader.

    You are also an idiot that cannot read or count. You say, "I suspect that Mark served a full 20 years, and retired out." Too bad that you so much of an ignorant idiot that when I say, "7 years in the Army and 23 more in the Air Force", you say you suspect that I served a full 20 years and retired out. 7 plus 23 equals 30 years and no I didn't just decide to stay-on an extra 10 years and left without retiring. You can't read, can't write and can't count. Obviously you are nothing but a joke and solely here in these posts as some sort of bad comedian to be laughed at by the rest of us that are in a serious discussion.

     
  • MARK TROVINGER posted at 12:15 pm on Fri, Nov 11, 2011.

    MARK TROVINGER Posts: 204

    Mr. Musto as long as we have writers such as Charles Fries, (the writer of this letter), saying that we need to cut our military budget, more people will get on his bandwagon and demand military cuts. Talk to these people about how important it is to have a bigger military budget and more personnel to carry out missions to places like Rwanda.

    Contact your elected representatives, who make the decisions, and let them know that we need a military capability to handle situations such as Rwanda. Vote for the persons or party that wants to change our foreign policy into something better that would include helping in situations such as Rwanda.

    But the fact is that if our military, and its budget, keeps getting cut, as the writer of this letter is wanting, we won't have much of any ability to help any country like Rwanda. We currently don't have the capability and definately won't be able to do so in the future if the military keeps having its budget cut.

    As to your statements about wanting to bring our troops home from those foreign countries that you mentioned, you are not taking into consideration why these troops and bases are there. First we are not in Italy as a peace keeping force. We are in these areas to make sure that we have staging areas in place if we need to react to a situation somewhere in the world. We can't just keep all the troops in the US and expect to move them from here to a war zone without having someplace closer to set up camp. Example: If for some reason we needed to get involved in Cambodia, we would use our bases in Japan and Korea in that effort. Without those bases, where would we set up our forward operations bases.....Arizona?

     
  • daniel hutchins posted at 12:11 pm on Fri, Nov 11, 2011.

    daniel hutchins Posts: 1339

    I suspect that Mark served a full 20 years, and retired out. After such a lifelong commitment, it is very difficult to admit that the military is not acting in the interest of America, but in the interest of the UN.

    ... and, Mark risked his life to serve this interest. More difficult to admit to the contrary of a former belief.

     
  • daniel hutchins posted at 12:08 pm on Fri, Nov 11, 2011.

    daniel hutchins Posts: 1339

    Gary Musto: Thank you for assisting Mark in his blind vision that the US is acting in the interest of the UN, not in the interest of America.

    Mark is unable to comprehend these facts unless the DOD makes an official press release stating these facts, but this would never happen.

    I tried to assist Mark in his comprehension by citing Hillary Clinton as a source, but this was in conflict with his belief system from other press releases, and he couldn't put it all together.

     
  • daniel hutchins posted at 12:04 pm on Fri, Nov 11, 2011.

    daniel hutchins Posts: 1339

    Mark,
    The difference between you and I is that if you hear a press release, you assume that it must be true.

    Speculation, and belief by Mark: " I'm sure that a decision was made that being involved in Kosovo was going to have an positive effect that would be in the best interests of the US."

    Mark, other than press releases, is there any mechanism in your brain that enables you to construct your own beliefs?

    Yes, I do know quite well what I am talking about.

    Following is true: "Mr. Hutchins I have no clue at all what you are talking about." Indeed, I have presented some facts which you are unable to assimilate.

     
  • Gary Musto posted at 11:00 am on Fri, Nov 11, 2011.

    Gary Musto Posts: 506

    Mark, since the US is the largest supporter and backer of the UN, how about a little noble effort from OUR government. We send our armed forces to bring back captured American students from foreign lands, rescue flood and earthquake victims from around the world, but found NO reason to lend a hand in stopping the slaughter of 800,000 innocent people???? Rwanda begged for UN help, we just stood by and let it happen, the single largest recorded act of genocide in decades happened on our watch.

    Why are we still in Kosovo, Germany, France, Italy, South Korea, Japan, etc. want to save some dough, bring those members of our armed forced home, let the UN take over peacekeeping duties in Italy. How long has it been since WWII???

     
  • Patrick W Maple posted at 10:48 am on Fri, Nov 11, 2011.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1805

    Very good point Mr Nelson!

    Mr L: The same people who are in Iran making nuclear bombs. Those countries over there are like our states here...there are no boundaries for terrorists...I harken back to '72 when I was in Munich...now it is happening here...NO boundaries...so you find them where you must...where they are.

     
  • MARK TROVINGER posted at 10:28 am on Fri, Nov 11, 2011.

    MARK TROVINGER Posts: 204

    Mr. Kinderman I only make my statement concerning the typical military person, based upon 7 years in the Army and 23 more in the Air Force. I also make my claims based upon having been a Unit First Sergeant for 6 of those years. The First Sergeant is the unit's disciplinarian and initiates the separation from service of those that portray the behaviour or attitude that you have discribed as being typical. I personally have processed 7 military members out of the military for exhibiting such behaviour. Anyone who might think that this is the trained or acceptable attitudes or behaviour for a military member doesn't know what they are talking about.

     
  • Jerome Kinderman posted at 9:59 am on Fri, Nov 11, 2011.

    Jerome R Kinderman Posts: 2362

    Too many movies, Mr. Trovinger? I don't think so. In fact, I'm the first to take to task Hollywood’s idiocy exhibited in such movies as "A Few Good Men" and so many others as nowhere near what goes on in the military, especially when they attempt to describe how its justice system works. One other guy I worked with in Germany decided it would be fun to count the number of mistakes that were made during that particular movie – I think we reached 50 or so. But during the credits at the end, they included an actual Navy or Marine Corps officer as someone they relied upon for authenticity. We both found the movie more a comedy than drama. Still, it was entertaining much like the comedies that I watch on this very forum.

    Naïve is the best description of what you believe our typical military member is, Mr. Trovinger especially as it pertains to the Marine Corps and Army. I hope you don’t think I’m criticizing them because that’s the last thing I would want any of them to think. In order to be successful, they must be all those things I denoted in my previous post. On the other hand, they also do a good job performing for the public when necessary – and that’s fine with me too. My flag is displayed today even as I write this to honor them for the jobs that they do; but my head is not buried in the sand when it comes to who and what they actually are and the horrific things they’re trained for and eventually ordered to do without question.

    We just need to be prepared for the onslaught as PTSD catches up to them with a sufficient number of hospital beds and prison cells.

     
  • MARK TROVINGER posted at 9:49 am on Fri, Nov 11, 2011.

    MARK TROVINGER Posts: 204

    Mr. Musto you've asked a good question and I'll attempt to answer it for you. I'm not going to say if this is a good thing to have been done, but it is the reasoning that is used to make these types of decisions about where and when to use our military forces.

    The Department of Defense sends troops to different areas of the world to initiate action or support actions in another country. They do not make this decision on their own. The DOD is instructed by an act of Congress or an order from the President.

    Those in Washington that give the orders always ask the question of, "What's in the best interest of the United States". I'm sure that a decision was made that being involved in Kosovo was going to have an positive effect that would be in the best interests of the US. However, the decision not to get involved in Rwanda was probably because there was nothing that could be done there that would have any direct impact on the United States.

    In Kosovo, it was determined that instability in the region could result in negative things happening to or for the US in the future. Therefore in the best interest of the US, intervention was required. In Rwanda, it was determined that no matter what happened in that country, the end result would not have an impact on the US so intervention was not ordered.

    I'm not saying that this is a good or bad policy. It's just the way the decisions are made. However, one must realize that with the current smaller military of the United States, it really is impossible to be everywhere, no matter how noble the effort would be.

    Mr. Hutchins I have no clue at all what you are talking about. Do you?

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 9:25 am on Fri, Nov 11, 2011.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Andrew stated...Today is their day so I'll wait until tomorrow for you to explain how anyone from Iraq or Afghanistan has harmed us...

    Can we assume that you think no action, event or person now or in the past 10 years, influenced United States in any harmful way from these two countries? That you are seeking truth and answers to such a claim?

     
  • daniel hutchins posted at 9:18 am on Fri, Nov 11, 2011.

    daniel hutchins Posts: 1339

    Andrew,
    I found it. That was big news equivalent to the Russian launch of Sputnik.

    http://wvtea.org/forum/topics/breaking-news?commentId=3087600%3AComment%3A43437&xg_source=activity

    When the Chinese submarines switch to electric power, they can penetrate the perimeter of defenses which are set up to guard our aircraft carriers, including two American attack subs that are guarding them.

     
  • Charles Nelson posted at 9:14 am on Fri, Nov 11, 2011.

    Charles Nelson Posts: 259

    At some point, cuts in military spending compromise the safety of soldiers. How many lives of our young volunteers are you willing to sacrifice to save a buck? Who, in their stead, will you spend it on?

     
  • daniel hutchins posted at 9:05 am on Fri, Nov 11, 2011.

    daniel hutchins Posts: 1339

    Mark, that was an official press release.
    Actually, Hillary Clinton's official press release was a contradiction.
    I ask you which you believe.

     
  • Gary Musto posted at 8:45 am on Fri, Nov 11, 2011.

    Gary Musto Posts: 506

    Good comments so far, the only question I have is why we bombed Kosovo to help out the UN while Rwanda was begging for our help and in the process of keeping our hands clean, 800,000 Rwandans were slaughtered.

     
  • Andrew Liebich posted at 8:13 am on Fri, Nov 11, 2011.

    Andrew Liebich Posts: 2999

    I agree Mr. Maple. Today is their day so I'll wait until tomorrow for you to explain how anyone from Iraq or Afghanistan has harmed us.

     
  • Patrick W Maple posted at 6:55 am on Fri, Nov 11, 2011.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1805

    Today is their day! Let us honor them and not argue. I plan to go see my father, brothers, uncles, aunts and friends who served this greatest of nations. Let us just be glad they were willing.

    Our mission is Iraq and Afghanistan is to seek out and bring to justice those who would harm us and have harmed us. Please be careful to not blame the messenger like many did in Viet Nam. The message is not of their choosing.

     
  • MARK TROVINGER posted at 9:41 pm on Thu, Nov 10, 2011.

    MARK TROVINGER Posts: 204

    Gentlemen the mission statement that I had in my comment was not something I just came up with out of thin air. It is the actual mission statement of the US DOD. Look it up. Obviously they are the best source to determine what they say their mission is.

    Mr. Kinderman you been watching too many Hollywood movies if you believe that members of the military are "typically mean, crude, rude, offensive and often just plain nasty – just as they were trained to be in order to preserve, protect, defend, etc."

    This is not typical of any military member. In fact, military members that would exhibit this type of behaviour would be discharged immediatley from their military branch as unsuitable for military service. The typical military member is confident, calm, dedicated, well mannered and honorable. This is what they are trained to be and expected to exhibit even though they have a stressful and dangerous job to accomplish. You have discribed a typical military member as some sort of maniac that can't act in any socially acceptable fashion. Way off base and totally wrong.

     
  • Andrew Liebich posted at 9:31 pm on Thu, Nov 10, 2011.

    Andrew Liebich Posts: 2999

    Mr. Kinderman states that the general public believes the military mission is to “preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United of America.”

    Apparently the military has failed that mission...

    Despite what any of you assume from my question it was genuine and sincere. I'll again, What is the military's mission in Iraq and Afghanistan?


     
  • Andrew Liebich posted at 8:54 pm on Thu, Nov 10, 2011.

    Andrew Liebich Posts: 2999

    and who did NATO and the U.S. back in Kosovo? AL QAEDA!!!

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 8:53 pm on Thu, Nov 10, 2011.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    .I was assuming Andrew was asking a rhetorical question Mr Trovinger.

    No reason to feel sorry for him in this situation. One might wonder if the text book mission is in harmony with the actual mission. For example, there are some who think the military is an equal opportunity employer subject to social engineering. These same people consider what Mr Trovinger stated as the mission as secondary and not important at all. Others see the mission of the military as a vehicle to train our younger generation to develop character and skills. I am not saying what the mission is or is not, but why not debate the thought so that consensus can be reached as to what the true mission is instead of making it a closed issue?

    I am more curious as to Andrew's intent in asking the question than the question itself.

     
  • Jerome Kinderman posted at 8:49 pm on Thu, Nov 10, 2011.

    Jerome R Kinderman Posts: 2362

    Mr. Liebich, it would take a sixth-grader less than ten minutes to determine what the military’s mission is so I doubt you “honestly” want to know anything from me so spare me the feigned civility; you’re not fooling me or anyone else. But I’ll give you my version anyway: to the general public they exist to “preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United of America.” From a purely military standpoint they’d probably wish for you to understand and accept without questioning that their mission is to kill people and break things - in their mandate to preserve, protect, defend, etc.

    These things they do better than any other military force on the face of the planet. But let’s get something clear - in order for them to do their jobs they must get their hands dirty - filthy dirty. While most Americans who have never served kick back each night under that blanket of protection, they sleep with the notion that each individual military member is some kind of knight in shining armor – ladies and gentlemen all. They aren’t - they’re typically mean, crude, rude, offensive and often just plain nasty – just as they were trained to be in order to preserve, protect, defend, etc.. But they do look nice in those freshly pressed uniforms as they march around in holiday parades, don’t they?

     
  • Andrew Liebich posted at 8:41 pm on Thu, Nov 10, 2011.

    Andrew Liebich Posts: 2999

    Hummm...Don't forget that China also fired a missle off our coast a few months ago...

     
  • daniel hutchins posted at 8:36 pm on Thu, Nov 10, 2011.

    daniel hutchins Posts: 1339

    Andrew: The mission is revealed when American forces are forced to take and to execute orders from a foreign commander. Example: the order to bomb Kosovo was given to NATO by a Spanish General, whereas the majority of bombs that fell were American, and B2 bombers were used to execute the mission.

     
  • daniel hutchins posted at 8:33 pm on Thu, Nov 10, 2011.

    daniel hutchins Posts: 1339

    Mark, Strategically, I ask you if you think that America could defend San Diego harbor or just about any other US Naval base against a single Chinese submarine attack against any of our aircraft carriers.

    If you do a google search, you will find that a Chinese submarine is reported to have surfaced adjacent to the USS Kitty Hawk.

    In friendly war games, this is the equivalent of a fictitious "BANG" "Fictitiously, in this game, you are 'dead'. I could have shot you just now."

    According to the official press releases, it was Kitty Hawk. But this is another story.

     
  • daniel hutchins posted at 8:30 pm on Thu, Nov 10, 2011.

    daniel hutchins Posts: 1339

    Mark, I disagree. You wrote that the mission is to deter war and to protect the security of our country.

    E.g. Hillary Clinton stated that America's involvement in Lybia was in the interest of Sicily, instead of America. Hillary stated this fact in the context that it was the US obligation to become involved in Lybia for Sicily's interest.

    Can you name one US president that has used the military to defend American soil, since the UN baby child was created?

    We are so completely committed in the Middle East that if a second war were to occur, we would not have adequate forces to commit to a 2-front war.

    If the mission is to deter war, then why are the numbers of personnel deployed to the Middle East, with so few remaining to defend the heartland?

     
  • daniel hutchins posted at 8:24 pm on Thu, Nov 10, 2011.

    daniel hutchins Posts: 1339

    Andrew has a good question. What is the mission of the US Military?

    The mission is to serve as a pawn in international politics, to uphold, nurture and defend the United Nations (first born) child.

     
  • Andrew Liebich posted at 8:20 pm on Thu, Nov 10, 2011.

    Andrew Liebich Posts: 2999

    Mr. Trovinger,

    War has not been deterred nor declared. Perhaps I should have been more specific... What is the military's mission in Iraq and Afghanistan?

     
  • MARK TROVINGER posted at 7:54 pm on Thu, Nov 10, 2011.

    MARK TROVINGER Posts: 204

    Mr. Liebich are you honestly asking anyone what the mission of the US military is?

    The mission of the Department of Defense is to provide the military forces needed to deter war and to protect the security of our country. (Straight from the DOD's Mission Statement)

    If you really didn't know this, I feel very sorry for you. Did you think the mission of the military was something other than this?

     
  • Andrew Liebich posted at 6:46 pm on Thu, Nov 10, 2011.

    Andrew Liebich Posts: 2999

    I would honestly like to know, What is the military's mission Mr. Kinderman?

     
  • Jerome Kinderman posted at 5:30 pm on Thu, Nov 10, 2011.

    Jerome R Kinderman Posts: 2362

    Conveniently albeit predictably Mr. Liebach leaves out the point I made that "[e]ven though [Fries] failed to address the issue of fraud, waste and abuse, there's been plenty of that in all aspects of our government including the military." My remarks about what the military does insofar as its mission is concerned ("[t]he military is the only thing the federal government does well") still stands.

     
  • Patrick W Maple posted at 1:28 pm on Thu, Nov 10, 2011.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1805

    Andrew..dig a little deeper into Rumsfelds comments...it was actually used to chastise exactly what ms kennedy was pointing out...not just waste but in many cases fraud. We have all read about the $150 two dollar screwdriver. That is not the military's fault but the politicians and their cronies who bone the taxpayers. The military (soldiers) can only request something...they don't sign the contracts. (I say give them what they want). Remember...the highest percentage of criminals living in one area is WDC.

    Darrell is right on the point that the military is one thing the govt does correctly. At least in today's age. Where they get wronged is when we as citizens elect people who know nothing about military operations and then let them legislate its purpose, functions and control. Like we did in Viet Nam and Korea...you can't start a war and then politicize it...or let the morons in WDC run it. Or the morons in SF.

     
  • Alex Kennedy posted at 12:38 pm on Thu, Nov 10, 2011.

    Alex Posts: 215

    Mr. Trovinger, Mr. Maple and Mr. Kinderman, I agree with you whole heartedly. Nothing is more important than a strong national defense. That being said, there is a lot of waste going on within our defense department that we should really fix. Also, maybe this is dumb but instead of having so many security contractors why don't we just increase soldier pay and have soldiers do the job. Many contractors make 3 or 4 times the pay as American troops. If we simply doubled their saleries we can attract more recruits as well as save on contractors. In 2004 a friend of mine made $140,000 delivering things in Iraq and doing construction. He said soldiers we very resentful of him and his coworkers because they are making so much more money and doing so much less work, especially dangerous work. Contractors are a relativly knew thing whose use spiked sharply in the last 20 years. We fought WWII without their inflated bills we should be able to live without them now. Maybe I'm wrong.

     
  • Andrew Liebich posted at 12:29 pm on Thu, Nov 10, 2011.

    Andrew Liebich Posts: 2999

    On September 10, 2001 Don Rumsfeld said $2.3 trillion was missing and unaccounted for from the Defense Department budget but according to Mr. Kinderman "The military is the only thing the federal government does well."

    Any thoughts as to where that $2.3 trillion disappeared to? Surely none of it went to any of the 865+ bases Mr. Fries referred to...

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 11:12 am on Thu, Nov 10, 2011.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Pat... good post! you articulated better what I was attempting to say better than I.

    Mr Kinderman... well said. I agree in your thought... " But let’s not expose our national naïveté Mr. Fries, many people hate us and want nothing less than to obliterate us"

    My original comments attempted to address this. Maybe my wording was not clear to a solution to fight the type of wasr we now find ourselves in.

    Mr Trovinger....no comment

     
  • Patrick W Maple posted at 10:13 am on Thu, Nov 10, 2011.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1805

    First off...Mr Trovinger thank you for your service to our country...I emphasize our country...you points of readiness and preparedness are very well taken. You make some very good point...as does Mr K...and a little bit by DB. I do think our military has changed...many relatives of mine now serve and help me to keep up with the innovations and tactics. I do believe we could be a little bit leaner and meaner. I also believe we could move much of our deployed back to the US...sometimes it is the speed of the operation at other times it is the stealth of it. We need to emulate the Israelis a bit more and start preparing for the cyber wars (we already are...but need to do more).

     
  • Jerome Kinderman posted at 10:07 am on Thu, Nov 10, 2011.

    Jerome R Kinderman Posts: 2362

    Mr. Fries writes that "[o]ur worst threat is rag-tag, loosely organized small groups of terrorists."

    Yeah, well these rag-tags successfully felled two of our highest skyscrapers in New York City, attacked the Pentagon and nearly attacked the White House or the Capitol building in D.C. In addition, the events of 9/11 have forever changed our way of life in this country (try to remember how life was on 9/10/2001).

    But let’s not expose our national naïveté Mr. Fries, many people hate us and want nothing less than to obliterate us, - as do many nations. The moment we reduce our military around the world is when we might as well hand over the keys to whatever else we have that they wish to destroy; maybe as a gift for caving into them, they’ll allow us time to extract our people before setting off their rag-tag bombs. Even though you failed to address the issue of fraud, waste and abuse, there's been plenty of that in all aspects of our government including the military. So root them out, prosecute them and let's get on with the job of protecting the United States of America from all enemies, foreign and domestic.

    The military is the only thing the federal government does well. But Mr. Fries is of the ilk that actually believes throwing more money into the Departments of Education, Energy, and the rest of those useless agencies are the answer to all our problems. So let’s destroy the military – then see where that leads us.

     
  • MARK TROVINGER posted at 9:46 am on Thu, Nov 10, 2011.

    MARK TROVINGER Posts: 204

    Mr. Baumbach I wanted to address one thing in your comment. You said, "Current military is bulky and takes to long to react. Less bulk...more efficient strike forces. At least, this is what I read would be preferable."

    In 1973, when Egypt was poised on the border to attack Israel with a massive military, one-half of the 82nd Airborne was in the air within 4 hours. That was 30 thousand troops and all their equipment on over 200 Air Force cargo aircraft all flying in formation at the same time.

    Egypt stopped and turned around and we turned around over the Atlantic and were flown back to wait. The next day Egypt started marching again towards Israel and again we were back in the air. Egypt then again retreated and we came back. After a week of waiting, it was evident that Egypt had finally gotten the message and we stood down.

    This is an example of how a strong, well prepared large force is able to operate at a moments notice. Today if the same situation happened, our less bulky, more efficient strike force, would take months to organize as well as we did in just a few hours. This is simply because we are stretched way too thin to do anything at a moments notice and the first thing that would have to be done is to locate any troops. Right now all of them are occupied doing something else and you can't just wish troops and equipment to appear out of thin air.

    Our current military is not too bulky, that is why they can't react promptly. They are way too thin to react with any speed or efficiency. Maybe you should read this and then make your determination about what is more preferable.

     
  • MARK TROVINGER posted at 9:05 am on Thu, Nov 10, 2011.

    MARK TROVINGER Posts: 204

    The old adage that, if you don't know history you are doomed to repeat it, seems to apply here. When I joined the military, while the Vietnam war was on, we had an extremely large military compared to the one we have today. Every military mission was able to be done because there were enough people to do everything and everything that needed to be done for the military was done by a military person.

    Ever since, the number of military people has been reduced and many of the duties of the military members have been outsourced to civilian contractors. Has this caused any problems? Yes! During the first Gulf war we should have been able to deploy to the area and handle Iraq's invasion of Kuwait almost immediatley. However we couldn't do much at all for over three months. First we didn't have enough active duty military to deploy and it took time to activate reserve forces to fill in the blank spots. Next, we couldn't send military members to set up front line bases because those military positions had been outsourced to civilian contractors. The military had no civil engineering units or food service units to support any missions. The civilians that performed these jobs could not be sent and it took months for the military to round up the equipment and personell needed to accomplish this work in a war zone. That's why it took months for the troops on the ground to get anything to eat except MREs (Field rations in a plastic bag). The military on the ground couldn't even have showers for a long time simply because there were no civil engineering units there to provide these services.

    At the time, many people were very happy that the military had been striped bare of its personnel, equipment and duties because this reduced the military budget and gave civilians job opportunities. In the long run it cost the US more to fix the problems than it had saved by outsourcing all of these military jobs.

    Unless someone is extremely young, or wasn't paying any attention, a great number of US military bases have already been closed in the past 30 years. Many bases throughout the world, and here in the US, have been closed or reduced in size.

    Anyone, like Mr. Baumbach, that says, "Our military should be run leaner and more efficiently considering the enemy we now face.", doesn't have a clue that our military has already done that to the point of being almost ineffective. More is being done by less. The education factor of the military is extremely high and the members are taught to do much more than just one job. This has resulted in the leanest and most efficient military possible. This has also eliminated the safety in numbers factor. When one member of a military unit is killed or injured, the result is that multiple capabilities of the military unit cannot be accomplished because the one and only GI that performed those jobs isn't there anymore. This makes it even more difficult for the remaining members to do their multiple jobs and those of the missing member.

    As for, "considering the enemy we now face", it is naive to believe that no other nation would ever wage war with the US? What do we do then? If all we can do is wage limited war on a small unorganized enemy, what can be done if all of a sudden we need to wage war with a large organized enemy force? We wouldn't be able to do anything because we would not have enough military forces trained to do this. The security of this nation and its allies does not come from having a small efficient force. It come from having a large well trained force that can handle anything that comes its way, with speed and efficiency.

    Many comments will come saying that it is not good for our economy to pay so much in taxes for a strong military. Think about what the economy would be like if you wake up some day and find that we no longer have any economy. This might simply be because a large, well organized enemy military is camped out in your precious front yard of your home. Oh yeah, the front yard that you paid for with your tax savings from not paying for the security of having a strong militery.

     
  • Kevin Paglia posted at 7:11 am on Thu, Nov 10, 2011.

    Kevin Paglia Posts: 2050

    I have been arguing for the closure of most of our overseas bases here for a while. My only deviation from the letter is I would reopen the bases inside the US. I provides us with a still strong military AND gives a huge boost to local economies which should ripple across the US. The added advantage is US military men and women can still serve their country but be home with their family more as well.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 5:24 am on Thu, Nov 10, 2011.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    I agree that our country desperately needs to revamp its government structure including the military.
    If our government was a private sector business with a responsible board of directors, significant changes would be made to immediately become more profitable.

    Bases in Germany and Japan could be dramatically be reduced as well as doing away with massive fraud and abuse. Our military should be run leaner and more efficiently considering the enemy we now face. Current military is bulky and takes to long to react. Less bulk...more efficient strike forces. At least, this is what I read would be preferable.

    So given that the military becomes less expensive and more efficient, so should all levels of government in its salaries, pensions and benefits . Government jobs should have perks, but what we see now is killing our economy.

    Government offices should also be relocated to less expensive locations. For example, if Pelosi moved her 2000 sq foot office (at 18,000 per month) from San Francisco to, more appropriately, Death Valley, her monthly rent would dramatically decrease.

     

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