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We are in a moral crisis — just look at the Republicans

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Posted: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 12:00 am

Our Republican friends are always telling us that we are in a moral crisis. I think they are right. They impeached a president for an affair between two consenting adults, and said the world was going to end. They then nominated and elected a president who used political pull to get into an Air Guard unit that had no chance of going to a war, which that president vigorously supported.

This is what Colin Powell had to say about George W. Bush's behavior:

"I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and well-placed ... managed to wangle slots in Reserve and National Guard units. ... Of the many tragedies of Vietnam, this raw class discrimination strikes me as the most damaging to the ideal that all Americans are created equal and owe equal allegiance to their country." (Colin Powell's autobiography, "My American Journey," p. 148.)

President Clinton paid a heavy personal price for his actions and apologized for his behavior. President Bush has never apologized, and has lied repeatedly about his, but of course that is who he is. Our country paid a heavy price for electing a man with no moral center.

The problem was not the morality and character of George W. Bush. The problem was the morality and character of those who voted for him.

John Lucas

Lodi

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Welcome to the discussion.

136 comments:

  • Bobcatbob Ingram posted at 4:15 pm on Fri, Mar 29, 2013.

    99er Posts: 119

    passionate responses

     
  • Quan Pham posted at 6:31 pm on Thu, Mar 28, 2013.

    qpham63 Posts: 31

    Most of the time, I resort to picking the lesser of all evils. There is a large matrix of what I would like to see in a candidate and the one with the most match gets my vote. It is simple and logical. That's my approach.

    I take emotion out of my action, it's an engineer's approach to problem solving.

    Daryl Baumbach? I have to admit I have only recently read the Lodi News Sentinel and only on line.

    If we echo the same things, we probably share the same values.

    Personal attacks does not bother me but it does really shine the light on those who casts stones but really try using facts to back up your arguments to lend it credibility.

    Time to start dinner.

    I will read you all later.

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 2:02 am on Thu, Mar 28, 2013.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1663

    MR Kinderman
    Who are you talking to in your Wed 9:45? You speak as a grand poo-ba to an illusionary crowd? Or are you actually addressing John Lucas in the third person?

    Now in the day It was common for the upper classes to dodge the the draft everyone else of the lowly folks were subject to. It falls in line with the conversation we are having about the comment of Colin Powell in Mr Lucas letter "I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and well-placed ... managed to wangle slots in Reserve and National Guard units. ... Of the many tragedies of Vietnam, this raw class discrimination strikes me as the most damaging to the ideal that all Americans are created equal and owe equal allegiance to their country." Now was it illegal bush's slipping into the "champagne corp" probably not. Was it immoral?

    To answer that depends on your perspective. Now I was as opposed to the Viet Nam war as I was opposed to the Iraq war. The main reason was that there was no enemy and the fight was a war of choice not of necessity. I can at least say Iraq did not involve a draft so that if you wanted to participate (believed Bush) you could and if you disagreed with it you didn't have to. In Viet Nam we had a draft and there was little choice. If I would have had a son then I would have done anything to keep him from having to serve in an unecessary war and could care less about ethics. The war itself was unethical. I seldom use the word moral and choose to use the word ethical instead.

    I had friends that received deferrals, from attending medical school to physical conditions which I was happy for them. Because I thought the war was so unnecessary and unacceptable I didn't find any "dodge" out of it unethical. So if you went to the war (via the draft) the dodgers might assuredly be considered unethical. So the question comes down to is it ethical for Bush and Cheney to find ways to be out of harms way their peers were obligated to and then show little compuction to send another generation to do the work they could never commit to.

    Fighting for freedom in defense of your country because you are being attacked changes the balance. All should be expected to serve equally as Colin Powell laments. However neither in Viet Nam nor Iraq were our freedoms threatened. We had no enemy. The carnage that occured in Viet Nam and Iraq and the always inevitable collateral damage that occurs why would you vote for president, a man who felt no reservation to invade a country to look for war and not consider war a last resort. The man who tried to institutionalize TORTURE as an acceptable practice that is proven worthless as a means of gaining intelligence. It only produces confessions (false or otherwise) and it was hoped it would get Iraqis to confess to WMDs that couldn't be found. If torture worked we probably would have been out of there with in 6 months.

    So the question is why would you vote for a president that advocated this practice. By the second term the jig was up. We now knew there was no WMDs, no connections to Al-Qaeda it was all for nothing. We didn't free the country and now it is showing more allegiance to Iran than us. Why would you vote for a second term for Bush. A Vote for Bush in the second term says much about the character of those that voted for him who thought this was all acceptable. That there was no remorse but instead aggressive efforts to change the facts, history if you will, to perpetuate a myth of freedom fighting rather than admit to a disaster. The closest admission is a tepid oh wasn't that an fortunate turn of events.

    Was torture intentionally voted for? Was war for any reason with out visible provocation voted for? Was the mentality of Abu Ghraib seen as acceptable and that was voted for? It seems hard to fathom just what was voted for when ballots were cast for the decider.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 11:18 pm on Wed, Mar 27, 2013.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Your second question which I did answer was:

    Second, where's your source that George W. Bush "vigorously supported" the Vietnam War?

    I said he worked on Winston Blount's Senate campaign in 1972 who was a supporter of the Vietnam war. I should have mentioned the George W Bush was his political director

    I do not hate. This is projection on your part. You make the mistake of many who are filled with anger and resentment that others have the same feelings as you do. I do not like what he did to our country but on a purely human level I feel sorry for him. To paraphrase Emerson, "the only thing you can give God is your character".

    I have answered to the best of my ability your questions. You have dodged mine with the speed and agility of Muhammed Ali. You said George Bush was an honorable man. I asked the following two questions. I will attempt to make them more clear.

    Do you believe used political pull to get into a unit that had no chance of going to Vietnam?

    If the answer is yes then:

    Do you believe that this is consistent with American values?

    My letter was not about George W Bush. George W Bush is what he is. It is about the ideal of all of us being equal under the law and whether people who voted for George W Bush believe in that principle. Yes I am talking about you.

     
  • Jerome Kinderman posted at 9:45 pm on Wed, Mar 27, 2013.

    Jerome R Kinderman Posts: 2367

    For someone who seems so put out because too few chose to answer Mr. Lucas’s letter and his plethora of posts submitted thereto, why no answers to questions posed to him from me based upon direct questions from him? (See, post at 2:04 p.m. on Wednesday, March 27, 2013, and salient response(s).)

    My second question was by far more important to me than questions one or three - yet it was completely ignored.

    As for Mr. Lucas not knowing whether using “political pull” (as he put it) is “illegal or just immoral” makes absolutely no sense because this appears to be at the heart of his angst toward then “college student” George W. Bush and the situation surrounding his serving in the Air National Guard. I would think this would have been settled at least in his own mind.

    Also, what difference would it make if George W. Bush worked “on the campaign of a ‘supporter’ of the Vietnam war?” Should the most casual observer also come away with the conclusion that George W. Bush “vigorously supported” the war simply because he worked for someone else who did support it?

    It seems to me that from the very beginning Mr. Lucas went on some sort of fishing expedition in order to form his own opinions as to why he hates former President George W. Bush almost as much as he obviously hates those who voted for him either once or perhaps even twice. And that’s fine - but he emerges from this exercise at least intellectually dishonest with his questions to us as he obviously doesn’t know what he believes himself.

    Of course I’m not at all surprised about paradoxical John Lucas. It just took 132 comments to get it all out in the open.

     
  • Joanne Bobin posted at 8:05 pm on Wed, Mar 27, 2013.

    Joanne Bobin Posts: 4488

    Job losses began in 2006 - the company I worked for began laying off in June 2006. They saw the writing on the wall. I lasted until June 2007. The following year, Bush's last year in office, they got down to employees who had been there for 20 PLUS years. From 350 employees to 100 in two and a half years.

    And some people have the nerve to ask why anyone is talking about George Walker Bush.

    It's hard to forget the man who flushed 20 years of your life down the toilet.

     
  • Mike Adams posted at 6:20 pm on Wed, Mar 27, 2013.

    Mike Adams Posts: 1501

    Or, all those posts that bash President Clinton. How far back do we have to go?
    Might I suggest President Hoover? He never got us in a war like Bush 43, but he did end up putting a lot of people out of work. Like Bush 43.

    And for the dolt who suggested that President Obama put sooo many people out of work because republicans in congress can't say yes to anything, you left out the hemorrhaging of job losses during the last year of the Bush 43. It's easy to seem superior when you cherry pick your data. You end up looking like a fool, but what the hey, a lot of your friends are blind and deaf to.

     
  • Mike Adams posted at 6:10 pm on Wed, Mar 27, 2013.

    Mike Adams Posts: 1501

    Jerome: Semantics, arm-chair quarterbacking, and clever prose may fool those who agree with you, but the more educated of us here are not falling for it.

    Colin Powell did his job for his commander in chief, as would be expected of any member of a presidential cabinet. I think you know that or someone of your intellect should know it and so you don't get a pass by implying anything that would reflect badly on a man of such carriage and character.

    Your feigning of disillusion of the type of man Colin Powell is third rate at it's best and you should know better.

    For the record, for those who don't know, Colin Powell has repeatedly said that he never had any intention of running for president, and would not accept a draft to do so from any party. However he did intimate, that if he did ever run, it would be as a republican. I think I can surmise that he would have won in a landslide over any opponent of either party.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 5:47 pm on Wed, Mar 27, 2013.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    The Vietnam war was not lost by our politicians. It was lost because the Vietnamese people in spit of incredible support in our treasures and our blood chose to go another direction. Take that pablum your trying to sell it to someone with a brain. I spent 19 months in that country and left some blood on the ground.`If the Vietnamese people wanted democracy they could have fought for it. You are not so stupid as to understand that we were the foreigners there.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 5:37 pm on Wed, Mar 27, 2013.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    John Wayne also was a draft dodger

     
  • John Lucas posted at 4:21 pm on Wed, Mar 27, 2013.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Jerome said:

    Third, are you in any way suggesting that George W. Bush did anything illegal that kept him from serving in Vietnam?

    In 1999, Ben Barnes, former Democratic Speaker of the Texas House of Representatives and Lieutenant Governor of Texas, gave testimony in a deposition for a lawsuit related to the Texas lottery; and following the deposition, his lawyer issued a statement to the press. According to the statement, Barnes had called the head of the Texas Air National Guard, Brigadier General James Rose, to recommend Bush for a pilot spot at the request of Bush family friend Sidney Adger.

    I do not know if it is illegal or just immoral to use political pull to go ahead of everyone else by political pull.

    He also worked on the campaign of a supporter of the Vietnam war Winton M. Blount in 1972

    Jerome aid:
    Are you suggesting that George W. Bush "vigorously supported" the Vietnam war yet then used some sort of "pull" to keep from serving?

    That is intuitively obvious to the most casual observer

     
  • Eric Barrow posted at 3:38 pm on Wed, Mar 27, 2013.

    Eric Barrow Posts: 1591

    John Wayne was a tobacco smoking hard drinking man I got no problem with that but are you sure he is the one for children to look up to?

     
  • Joanne Bobin posted at 3:08 pm on Wed, Mar 27, 2013.

    Joanne Bobin Posts: 4488

    Ms. Parigoris wrote: "I can not (sic) believe someone is writing a letter bashing a President who has been out of the limelight for 5 years. Besides, when are you all going to catch on to the fact that this partisan bickering and hatred is all part of the plan and is destroying our country?"

    Four years, not five.

    How rich is this? First, our economy is in a shambles due to the actions of George Walker Bush. Second, he has spent trillions of dollars on two unnecessary wars that have killed and maimed thousands of American troops and thousands of Iraqi's.

    Then, this commenter has the audacity to crow about the TEA Party's attempts to make nice-nice with "moveon.org" while members of Congress supported by the TEA Party are filibustering and blocking just about every piece of legislation put forth by the current administration.

    It is all laughable to say the least!

     
  • Quan Pham posted at 3:03 pm on Wed, Mar 27, 2013.

    qpham63 Posts: 31

    Thomas, it is no big secret that our politician lost the Vietnam war.

     
  • Jerome Kinderman posted at 3:02 pm on Wed, Mar 27, 2013.

    Jerome R Kinderman Posts: 2367

    Keep in mind Mr. Lucas, while your question appears to be an honest request for information from me, based upon experience on this very forum I’m not naïve enough to be fooled that in any way do you “think I am an honorable man.” I’ve seen this ploy used before. So forgive me for proceeding cautiously.

    First, I don't understand a part of your question, Mr. Lucas. What do you mean by ". . . George W Bush joining the Air Guard to avoid service in a war vigorously supported." Are you suggesting that George W. Bush "vigorously supported" the Vietnam war yet then used some sort of "pull" to keep from serving?

    Second, where's your source that George W. Bush "vigorously supported" the Vietnam War?

    Third, are you in any way suggesting that George W. Bush did anything illegal that kept him from serving in Vietnam?

     
  • Quan Pham posted at 3:00 pm on Wed, Mar 27, 2013.

    qpham63 Posts: 31

    Thomas Heuer, no need to appologize. I have thick skin. I am a naturalized citizen originally from Vietnam, one of those lucky to make it out of Vietnam after the fall of the South. I was not even a teenager when I left.

    War is a terible thing sometimes it is necessary most of the time not. I believe in peace through superior fire power. For civilized people, peace can be had with mutual understanding and respect. For uncivilized people, we have a big stick.

    Our politicians have abused their power. I believe we need to take it back.

    I really don't care about affairs between consenting single adults. We are not talking about that with Bill Clinton, it was an affair of a married man carried out with an employee. There is a big difference. I followed this closely as he continues to twist and bend the truth and refused to catagorize his activities as sexual relations.

    Oh well, as some one who was not born into freedom and perhaps that is why I value it more than the average American. I know that freedom is not free and having a family member in the Marines, I know that when our troops serve, so does their family.

    It burns me to see the such obvious political tools voicing their opinion not based on principals but based purely on political line making such opinion worthless.

    Regarding Pot Smoking. I am for freedom of choice. Alcohol is legal, I choose to not imbibe except on very rare occasion.

    The president the ultimate role models? Absolutely, if you are in the position of power or have children look up to you, you have the obligation to BE THE role model. That goes for sports figures and entertainment people as well.

    Sadly we have Paris Hilton, Bill Clinton, Charlie Sheen, Sean Penn and not enough John Wayne and George Washington (My favorite American).

    Thanks for your kind words. I am sure we will chat again.

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 2:51 pm on Wed, Mar 27, 2013.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1663

    Mr Kinderman
    Go back and read my post since the facts escape you (what again). Colin Powell didn't lie at least knowingly lie. Honor does come before the job and he walked into the UN fully believing what he was about to present. But he was duped. And Bush was not an honorable man. Like I said give me some time and as the tea party grows even worse maybe Bush will be seen in a more favorable compared to the worsening condition of the conservatives. And like I said even Nixon doesn't look half bad as he did at the time.

     
  • Joanne Bobin posted at 2:45 pm on Wed, Mar 27, 2013.

    Joanne Bobin Posts: 4488

    Very interesting, Mr. Paglia.

    I know my memory isn't as sharp as it used to be, but I'm not senile and WHY would I have had a reason to call "Tracy" a liar and a cheater? Perhaps you need to read comments in context before going off half cocked and making accusations.

    I have reread Ms. Matheson's post in which she declared, with regard to President Clinton, "once a liar and a cheater always a liar and a cheater, I probably speculated that Ms. Matheson had had previous experience with men who were liars and cheaters and that might be the reason she made that declaration with regard to Clinton.

    If I were you, I would be wondering why Ms. Matheson would be so BITTER toward men rather than making silly accusations about me.

    If it helps, I will email Mr. Birch and ask him to send me the comment in question.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 2:14 pm on Wed, Mar 27, 2013.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730


    should read:
    Do you not think he used pull to get in the unit or do you think it was honorable to use pull to get in the unit?

     
  • Kevin Paglia posted at 2:13 pm on Wed, Mar 27, 2013.

    Kevin Paglia Posts: 2086

    In referance to what Joanne Bobin posted at 12:45 pm on Wed, Mar 27, 2013:

    It is interesting that in a comment thread on morals, Ms Bobin would decide to LIE about what she posted. For half day after Tracy Matheson post at 12:37 pm on Tue, Mar 26, 2013, Ms Bobin stated (as a reply) that she "Suspected" Tracy had experience with being a liar and cheater (just as Tracy had accused CLinton of being.

    Then the post was removed by the Staff (I am assuming). Now with her words erased Ms Bobin makes the claim she never posted it.

    Is there something about bearing false witness? I guess since it was removed it doesn't really count, does it?

     
  • John Lucas posted at 2:12 pm on Wed, Mar 27, 2013.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    You have a right to your opinion but I am also one of those of us who have served in the United States Armed Services and think your view is simplistic and immature. In the military loyalty and trust are cornerstone to any cohesive unit. He took that ideal with into the Secretary of States job. I repeat:

    He let his sense of loyalty and trust to people who did NOT deserve it destroy his place in history. I think he has to much honor to say it out loud.

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 2:04 pm on Wed, Mar 27, 2013.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1663

    Mr Pham
    I approach this with the assumption thsi is a legitimate post. However I have a couple of concerns. BTW Nice picture I assume of your family? We don't see that much family photos here mostly of individuals or their iconic representations. Where did you come from and how long have you been here? Its always refreshing to conect with a new comer who has obviously strong family values. And your right we hardly know you and that is why I have taken an interest here. You say you find it offensive an "affair between two consenting adults" I guess that means you're not talking about two single individuals or do you? Do you believe the president should be the ULTIMATE role model for the country? They do have occassional lapses like cussing, invading another country for no reason, taking money from one (terrorist) country and giving it to another (rebel group) illeagally as declared by congress (the people s representatives). Oh gosh theres so much more but I shouldn't lay so much on you since we hardly know each other. As a childof war where we (US) fought I aassume then southeast Asia. There are a lot of people there who were grateful for our help but there were many who felt we harmed them and eventually deserted them. You must have been very fortunate to remain positive through it all. Did you know there was a lot of pot smoking going on at that time including in your country? There are many steps being taken to legalize it here and in some states it is legal. We allow medical pot for those who get their doctors approval. Though that should be known to you since you've been here since Reagan. Stop me or forgvive me if I seem rude. Let me appologize in advnce. I just want you to realize John is not being silent on the subject out of any shame its just that has been discussed before and as I say Pot smoking is nearly legal anymore. Its not something law enforcment is activly chaseing. But again you must know that being here since Reagan. And I can't agree more we should all show some respect. In fact another poster here says there is an effort underway now to promote more civil conversations.
    i am all for that. Nice to talk to you and I hope we can talk more. Say hi to your family for me.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 2:04 pm on Wed, Mar 27, 2013.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Jerome, I think you are an honorable man. I have a question about George W Bush joining the Air Guard to avoid service in a war vigorously supported.Do you not think he used pull to get in the unit of do you think it was honorable to use pull to get in the unit?

     
  • Jerome Kinderman posted at 1:56 pm on Wed, Mar 27, 2013.

    Jerome R Kinderman Posts: 2367

    Oops! It seems I made a mistake by confusing "primrose path" with "garden path." For those who find this unforgiveable - oh well. It appears that I'm not the only one confused, but I do like to be accurate. So to be clear, I meant "garden path" in a message I posted earlier. I apologize to anyone who might have been either confused or terribly injured by my mistake..

     
  • Jerome Kinderman posted at 1:30 pm on Wed, Mar 27, 2013.

    Jerome R Kinderman Posts: 2367

    No, Mr. Heuer - Colin Powell would never have had to "placed his loyalty and duty as Sec of State above his personal reputation." To an Army General, lying is just not possible. It's illegal according to the UCMJ. After spending all those years in uniform expecting all those thousands of men and women to act Honorably, all he would have had to have done is either tell President Bush that he simply could not lie - or resign. You seem to suggest that his job was more important than his Honor. Not possible. And the thing is, I wouldn't expect President George W. Bush to have asked him to lie. Because above all else, President Bush was and still is an Honorable man himself. Of course you're free to believe the opposite to be true - I really don't care.

     
  • Jerome Kinderman posted at 1:22 pm on Wed, Mar 27, 2013.

    Jerome R Kinderman Posts: 2367

    General Colin Powell (and so many others like him) would never (EVER) place any sense of loyalty to anyone above their own innate and sworn-to sense of Honor (INCLUDING the President of the United States; he would have resigned before violating that most sacred trust to himself). But if he had (which is simply not possible considering who and what he is), he would have no one to blame but himself.

    Those of us who have served in the United States Armed Services understand that above everything else there is Honor. General Colin Powell ranks up there with other honorable and decent military men and women such as Eisenhower, Bradley, Schwarzkopf and Reynolds, to name but a few. To them and General Colin Powell Honor was or is a way of life.

    On the other hand, perhaps Honor doesn't mean much outside the confines of the military way of life. To be sure, William J. Clinton knew very little of the concept; his own behavior in and out of the White House bearing this out well. But no one (with Honor) could ever seriously compare Colin Powell to Bill Clinton - at least while not actually "laughing out loud" (LOL).

    No, General Colin Powell most certainly DID believe that Saddam Hussein possessed those weapons of mass destruction AND that he was prepared to unleash them on his own people and/or anyone else who might try to thwart his evil plans.

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 1:12 pm on Wed, Mar 27, 2013.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1663

    MR Kinderman
    It is very frustrating your attempts to sound logical on very illogical premises. Yes Colin Powell, whom I admire, was at the pinnacle of of his success in civillian life but that didn't have to be his pinacle because he had greater possibilities available to him at the time. He is still not incapable of rising above this if he chooses. But the UN testimony will forever haunt him. The mad rush to war in Iraq blindsided everybody. He knew the evidence was bogus and ordered his speech writers to rewrite his speech to the UN. Then George Tenat said there was information to suport the claims and Powell needed to go back and use the original speech. Even a sharp 4 star general doesn't have the time to reinvestigate. His loyalty also weighed in. As I said everyone was operating on the, well I hope someone knows more than me. I have to trust this. We were all aware that Saddam Husein had used chemical weapons on Iran and his own country on the Kurds. So we all rightfully had our suspicions. How ever chemical weapons are no threat to us since he had no means of delivering them. So then came the idea that nuclear weapns were being developed (aluminum tubes) which was worrisome but still a long way away though it was being presented as if overnight they would have the weapons. This was so many times refuted by our own experts. How ever it all came home when the claims about Al Queda being in Iraq and supported by Saddam were put forward. That is what Colin Powell knew for a fact was garbage. And that, at the 11th hour, was what Geo Tenant (a Clinton appointee) said was now verified. Colin Powell was duped as sharp as he is. Calling Powell a liar is an insult. He never believed he was telling a lie. Bush And Cheney lied and Powell trusted them. As I said congress had a lot of mixed motives in their support on both sides but their were disenters who voted against it and they were right. Colin Powell was a reluctant warrior (like Eisenhower) as most war veterans will tend be in leading troops but in the end you have to trust and remain loyal to your own people. Saddams vacilation in cooperation did require a show of support and thats why other honerable people like Kerry and Hillary voted for that show of support but cautioned that the vote for war was expected to be a LAST RESORT.
    In short - Colin Powell is neither evil nor an idiot:
    He believed what he was told and his loyalty and duty as Sec of State was placed above his personal reputation and realized if the information as presented was real it could very well place our troops in harms way.
    There is a book called "Hubris" that details the lead up to the invasion. I don't know if you read or just watch Fox news.

     
  • Joanne Bobin posted at 1:08 pm on Wed, Mar 27, 2013.

    Joanne Bobin Posts: 4488

    Mr. Kinderman wrote: "he ((four-star) General Colin Powell) truly did realize he was being led down the infamous primrose path.."

    OK - I'll explain this a second time - don't remember who used this idiom incorrectly before...

    Being "led down the...primrose path" means that someone is living a life of "ease and pleasure."

    Being "led UP the garden path" means that someone is being deceived intentionally, as Bush and Cheney and Rumsfeld did to Congress and the American people - and Cheney, especially, deceived us with malice aforethought.

     
  • Eric Barrow posted at 1:08 pm on Wed, Mar 27, 2013.

    Eric Barrow Posts: 1591

    That's great Kim after 5 years of Obama bashing and insults to those who support him as President the right is finally willing to sit down and work together. Could have saved a lot of time , money and misery for the American people if the right had done that from the beginning. Better late than never.

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 1:04 pm on Wed, Mar 27, 2013.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1663

    Kim you mean the president in hiding?
    The president who can't show his face at conservative conventions?
    I'm sorry you think occasional bashes of president Bush is destroying the country however the constant Obama bashing is considered, what... uplifting? Is this your idea of the new conversation? Listen, the country has already been nearly destroyed and is continually being torn apart by the tea party types who are h.... bent on destroying America as we know it today. Destruction? That is why Bush will continue to be a conversation we can't get away from. When conservatives make a mistake, and people even tell them they are making a mistake, they always come back later and say can't we just forget about that little matter that cost lives and the economy and Americas reputation in the world. Yet if a mistake occurs under Obama (or Clinton) we have to listen to the relentless demands for more investigation, more freedom of information requests, did you hear what Obama didn't wear a flag lapel pin, and more investigations because the 20 we already had didn't go deep enough (meaning it didn't come out as we wanted it). Bush isn't gone we are living it because bad decions were made and the tea party types want to keep on doing the same carp. Compareing a household budget to the federal budget, give me a break. Demonizing entitlements in bad economic times is scandalous. Advocating entitlement destruction rather than tune-ups. Demonizing unions at every turn without offering an alternative to protect workers from the slide into poverty we experience today. Tell you what, we need a first move here. You admit Bush was a bad president forcing you to form an alternative conservative group tea party(s) and start working to support our current president in the efforts to create jobs (not destroy womens reproductive rights as your sole endeavor) and understand we are all Americans (not just the ones who think like you) and I personnaly will stop bashing Bush every time a conservatie wants to blame the current economyy solely on Obama. Of course if they want to continue to blame Obama for the current economy then the bets off.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 12:58 pm on Wed, Mar 27, 2013.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    [smile]

     
  • Joanne Bobin posted at 12:46 pm on Wed, Mar 27, 2013.

    Joanne Bobin Posts: 4488

    Logic is apparently not Quan Pham's strong suit - just like another well known poster.

     
  • Joanne Bobin posted at 12:45 pm on Wed, Mar 27, 2013.

    Joanne Bobin Posts: 4488

    Mr. Paglia wrote: "And then there is the rebuttal of Ms Bobin who claims to be free on intolerance and hate (simply because it is against liberal philosophies) then accuses Tracy of experience being a "liar and a cheater"."

    First, I don't even know what Mr. Paglia is saying, i.e. "then accuses Tracy of experience being a "liar and a cheater."

    Just WHERE did I accuse anyone here of "being a liar and a cheater," Mr. Paglia?

    I think you are mistaken and need to APOLOGIZE!!

     
  • John Lucas posted at 11:55 am on Wed, Mar 27, 2013.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    This letter was not about George W Bush.

     
  • Kim Parigoris posted at 11:31 am on Wed, Mar 27, 2013.

    Kim Parigoris Posts: 470

    I can not believe someone is writing a letter bashing a President who has been out of the limelight for 5 years. Besides, when are you all going to catch on to the fact that this partisan bickering and hatred is all part of the plan and is destroying our country? From Huffington Post "You read that right. Joan Blades, who co-founded the liberal political group MoveOn.org and Mark Meckler, a co-founder of the Tea Party Patriots, are now working together on Living Room Conversations, a project that seeks to foster civil discourse that is "respectful, constructive, collaborative, solution focused and conducive to empowering healthy communities." Watch the video here..http://live.huffingtonpost.com/r/archive/segment/moveon%2C-tea-party-co-founders-team-up-to-push-common-causes/513e698f2b8c2a7c830003f3

     
  • John Lucas posted at 10:00 am on Wed, Mar 27, 2013.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    sorry should say:

    He let his sense of loyalty and trust to people who did NOT deserve it destroy his place in history

     
  • John Lucas posted at 9:43 am on Wed, Mar 27, 2013.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    You forgot number four.
    He let his sense of loyalty and trust to people who did deserve it destroy his place in history

     
  • John Lucas posted at 9:28 am on Wed, Mar 27, 2013.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Thank you. Lodi is a great place with good people of all political stripes. Kind of makes it interesting and fun.

     
  • Jerome Kinderman posted at 9:22 am on Wed, Mar 27, 2013.

    Jerome R Kinderman Posts: 2367

    So what we're to glean from this is that (four-star) General Colin Powell - at the very pinnacle on the civilian side of his career serving the President of the United States as Secretary of State - was virtually unable to think for himself. On the other hand, if this highly-decorated TRUE leader of men and women in the biggest, finest and best-trained Army on the face of the Earth understood that the information he was provided regarding Iraq, Saddam Hussein and WMD's was some trumped-up fodder so well-orchestrated by President George W. Bush that fooled Congress AND the American people that he ((four-star) General Colin Powell) truly did realize he was being led down the infamous primrose path yet decided it was worth destroying his own character and values that he lied, lied and then lied some more to a plethora of people to fulfill his CINC's (that's Commander-in-Chief’s) dastardly desire to not only kill thousands of Iraqi's but thousands of our own military men and women.

    In short - Colin Powell is either:

    (1.) a useful idiot (which he is not and never has been); or

    (2.) an evil, evil, EVIL man (which he is not and never has been); or

    (3.) he believed what was presented to him so deeply that he was convinced to risk his own reputation and the lives of HIS Army.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 9:15 am on Wed, Mar 27, 2013.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    We will know soon enough. [smile]

     
  • John Lucas posted at 9:09 am on Wed, Mar 27, 2013.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Mr Quan Pham said:

    I loath those who would dodge war then send our military to war.

    You admitted you voted for George W Bush twice. Why would you vote for someone you loath for that is exactly what George W Bush did

     
  • Brenda Johnson posted at 8:50 am on Wed, Mar 27, 2013.

    bjohnson156 Posts: 6

    Well said, Joanne

     
  • Brenda Johnson posted at 8:46 am on Wed, Mar 27, 2013.

    bjohnson156 Posts: 6

    [thumbup]

     
  • Joanne Bobin posted at 8:34 am on Wed, Mar 27, 2013.

    Joanne Bobin Posts: 4488

    Wow! This could have been written by Darrell Baumbach! Quan Pham certainly has a way of using the exact phrases Mr. Baumbach uses.

     
  • Brenda Johnson posted at 8:29 am on Wed, Mar 27, 2013.

    bjohnson156 Posts: 6

    Thank you John Lucas, for pointing this out, we need more people in this area to speak out. [smile]

     
  • Quan Pham posted at 8:18 am on Wed, Mar 27, 2013.

    qpham63 Posts: 31

    There is so much bias as well as liberal commitment in your opinion it is laughable.

    You have an opinion about me, a Bush voter. You have an opinion about my morality and character yet you don't know or understand anything about me.

    Sure, I voted for all the Bushes. I did not vote for Reagan as I was not yet a citizen at that time but probably would have voted for him.

    No, I am no partyline voter but increasingly, I find my self darking the dot for the least of two evils while you obviously can stomach the "affair between two consenting adults" as a leader of our country as the ultimate role model for our young people speak volumes about your morality and character. The job of a sitting president is more than just to run the country, he has the obligation to be a role model.

    Draft dodger? As one of those children of war for which men and women of the US armed forces fought to help. I forever hold gratitude to those who served. As a US citizen I continue to appreciate their sacrifice and proud to have a family member in the US Marines. I loath those who would dodge war then send our military to war.

    Now we have a sitting president who have writen in his books proclaiming his use of illegal substance and have continued in his presidency joking about it. You have nothing to say about this? Your silence about this also speak volumes about your morality and character.

    This of course is only my opinion but I at least have the same standard for everyone regardless if they are public servants, or if they have an R or D or whatever behind their names.

     
  • Doug Chaney posted at 10:12 pm on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    advocate Posts: 502

    Jerome, didn't the supreme court "select" Junior?

     
  • Doug Chaney posted at 9:56 pm on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    advocate Posts: 502

    There was one disastrous outcome of Georgie's trumping up the documents to take us to war in the wrong country and to me that was the destruction of Gen. Colin Powell's positive image. When he decided to "go with the flow" of Bush-Cheney's diatribe and their false allegations, he sacrificed his great chance to be the first prominent leader of the republican party and quite possibly the first African-American president of the United States. When I see conservatives/republicans touting Bush1/Bush2/Reagan as their shining stars i just wonder how much further back into the sheep herd they can place themselves. With the unfunded wars maybe the objectionists/teabaggers/right wing extremists should realize that they are one of the major contributors to the economic crash and the financial difficulties we face today. Just look at the dysfunctional party now, recognizing gay people, wanting to enact immigration laws merely to garner the Latino votes and actually wanting to accept minorities besides their "trophy" females into their still bigoted ranks. All the while still putting forth their efforts to deny voting rights to blacks. I can understand southerners wanting to keep their Anglo heritage but it is sad to see they aren't willing to share that heritage with any other ethnicity's.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 7:26 pm on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Most of the people who comment on these letter are committed politically. They have done studies on people like this, left and right, and found that they respond to political input with the emotional part of the brain and not the logical part. I am not sure this is true. Look at the comments. Except for Kevin not one of the Conservatives weighed in on what George W Bush did during the Vietnam war or defend their decision to vote for him twice. The Liberals answered the critics of Bill Clinton. The really right wing Conservatives cannot ever admit they made a mistake or even go to a place where they might have made a mistake. Making mistakes is the fuel for growth both in character and especially in our spiritual life. This is the problem.

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 7:21 pm on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1663

    [thumbup]
    Nice Mike

     
  • John Lucas posted at 6:45 pm on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Good comment

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 6:40 pm on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1663

    John you wrote a very fine letter and I get it.
    But let me start quickly that as I said before and I believe John has said as well conservatives are anxious to sweep the historic failures of the Bush administration under the rug so your ilk can start with a new image but as another poster has said in the past as long "as I have a voice" I will not let you rewrite the tragic history that was the Geo Bush era. Mostly because we are still living it.

    Now to be truthful I am starting to relax just a little with G Bush. No its true. It seems to be the pattern with conservatives that they just keep getting worse (and desperate) as time goes on. And as much as I like Clinton I recognize 1. his short comings. However the relentless attacking of Clinton from one dead end investigation to the next and others became exausted from the wasted time and repetitive string of accsations that went no where. Then the affair. I was not happy but conservatives zeal in at last finding something was like going through a tax audit and getting questioned about this and then that, till the revenuer with gusto finds you missed something (small). Oh he lied. What married person wouldn't deny an affair which was nobodies business. So it was conservatives that didn't allow me to get angry with Bill because I was so fed up with the conservaive shenanigans. The same is happening with Obama the relentless attacks (evidenced by this forum) that when and if they ever find anything I will be as numb to it as before. I will again feel time was wasted for political joportunism.

    Now 2. I understand the political process which conservatives seem to be ignorant of. Its like the vote for the Iraq war by significant dems its because it was politically driven both by the shock of the country from 9/11 and aspirations of dems future presidential runs made it hard to vote against it. Everyone even Colin Powell who scoffed at the trumpt up evidence but Tenent backed so he ike everyone hoped someone else knew more than they did. But the vote as Hillary said was to have a show of solidarity to Saddam and war was to be used as a last resort. Bush didn't use it as a last resort he ran with it. Then came torture which I will never forgive and it did drag down the moral standing of this country not to mention the worthless invasion. I won't let it fade conveniently since it was said at the time there was no justification for the war but the Sean Hannities called nay sayers terrorist sympathisers or unAmerican or cowards.

    Political aspirations are still evident today with the no tax pledges. Why would you sign a tax pledge? Because you are worried about being elected and reelected. Everyone demonizes carer politicians but if its their caree politician hands off.

    So why am I getting softer on Bush? Because the newer conservatives are even scarier than the last conservatives. I look back and I never liked Nixon or Reagan but they don't lookl so bad to me now compared to the tea party and Gingrich crops. They are not real conservatives. I am more conservative than they are (take away the evangelical baggage). They are anarchists which is what is passing for conservatism now. So I feel given time Bush will not look as bad as whatever the conservatives come up with in the future. As long as they feel confortable in a state of blameing others for their imagined plight, whatever they can soak up from a hate stirring conservative media complex they will foment their hysteria and feel threats from every corner. This is the legacy of the Bush years. Its still with us on steroids. And that is what John I believe John is trying to say.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 6:34 pm on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    It is a sad day for our country if we think the idea that we all are equal in the sight of the law is beating a dead horse. The President did not use political pull to get out of any war he supported. Clinton was against the war and did nothing illegal to avoid the draft. You are correct in saying people in politics will use their political power. This does not say we should not be alert to the abuse of that power and stand up and say something about it. The people who voted and supported George W Bush need to come out and either defend or condemn what he did. For too long they have gotten a free ride on this.

     
  • Ed Walters posted at 6:14 pm on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    the old dog Posts: 611

    Mr. Lucas: Concerning President Bush, the first vote for president was made by the Supremes, the re-election by the voting public of the United States. You go on to say that you guys are good at advoidance, I would suggest you are good at beating a dead horse. What happened, happened and nothing can change history, if history is your forte, perhaps you can bring up the engine that powered the Wright Bros. plane. To believe anyone in politics at one time or another will not use their political power is foolish. From B.O. to the local judge excusing a traffic ticket. And speaking of BO, you might list his military contributions, along with Bills.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 5:38 pm on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    What is interesting to me is how you do not comment on what George W Bush did during the Vietnam war or defend your voting twice for him. I have to admit you guys are good at avoidance

     
  • John Lucas posted at 5:34 pm on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Grasping for straws are we Joe? [smile]

     
  • robert maurer posted at 5:18 pm on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    mason day Posts: 462

    ... and here are draft dodger Clinton's views and actions during viet nam war; www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1884984/posts

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 5:17 pm on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1663

    And Joe the point is?

     
  • John Lucas posted at 5:17 pm on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    It does not wash with me but my experience prejudices me in the matter. It would not bother me at all if he did not support the war so vigorously. That is what sticks in my craw. I may not be completely rational in the matter.

     
  • Walter Chang posted at 5:14 pm on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    Walt Posts: 1168

    "Mr Chapman, Mr Baxter, Mr Kinderman, Mr Matheson etc"

    Bob (robert maurer), my offer for a cold beer still stands.

    [smile]

     
  • Kevin Paglia posted at 4:57 pm on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    Kevin Paglia Posts: 2086

    It would nt surprise me one bit that polical power was used to keep many people in safe positions. Probably ranged from dropping a name "Hey did you know my son was thinking about do military service?" to threats "If something could happen to my son, imagine what could happen to yours" or even "Sure would be nice if my son was close by as he served" and "He thinks he would be a good soldier/piolet, but I highly doubt it and he may cost lives over there"

    What ever was said ANY military service carries risks. And I highly respect any and all who assumed those risks, from great to small. At least he didn't flee the country to hide from the draft as other Presidents are accused of doing.

    A lot of people call Bush Jr "dumb" but "dumb" people can not learn to fly as he did.

     
  • Mike Adams posted at 4:54 pm on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    Mike Adams Posts: 1501

    Ed: Conviction on an impeachment requires 50% + 1. The republicans knew that the Senate would not sustain an impeachment, but went on with it anyway.

    That is not "a few die hard Demos".

    Bush, and members of his administration knew that UN inspectors could not sustain the charges Bush made regarding chemical weapons, WMD's etc.
    They cherry picked information and shored it up with the testimony of more than several individuals who he knew then, and the rest of us knew later, had no knowledge of events in Iraq.

    The fact that we found no WMD's or chemical weapons sustains the argument that we should not have invaded Iraq as those were the grounds on which we sought and got UN approval.

    Did the invasion have widespread approval of democrats? Yes. Based on the same biased and false allegations and evidence provided by Bush.

    Why is no one addressing Bush jumping the line to get into the Texas Air National Guard (which had a waiting list of tens of thousands others)? And once he got in and got his wings, why no one can find any record of his service?

     
  • John Lucas posted at 4:51 pm on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    [smile]

     
  • John Lucas posted at 4:50 pm on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Again you add so much to the conversation. Your magnificent conclusions based on arguments so brilliantly ordered that we lessor mortals are in awe of the mind that conceived them. You are a man among men. We bow to your amazingly brilliant rhetoric

     
  • John Lucas posted at 4:46 pm on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    I think contempt would be a better word than disdain. Just trying to help

     
  • Mike Adams posted at 4:43 pm on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    Mike Adams Posts: 1501

    Wow!!!!

    He's got you there Joanne!!

     
  • John Lucas posted at 4:43 pm on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Kevin,I think you are a very bright person. To imply that George W Bush did not use political pull to get into a unit that many members of the Dallas Cowboys, John Connoley's son( A Democrat) and many others of the well to do will make me rethink my view.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 4:35 pm on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    God, I love short answers that get to the heart of the problem.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 4:31 pm on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    [smile] There you go again, wanting specifics!

     
  • John Lucas posted at 4:29 pm on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Watching legislation being passed is like watching sausage being made{ old cliche}. This sort of thing happens all the time. It is part of the process. The abuse comes when things like Medicare part D happen. 20 Billion year giveaway to Big Pharma. 200 billion and counting. Subsidies totaling billions to big oil and Big Ag. The list goes on and on. I understand your point but it is the way the system was designed. The problem is that it is so tilted to those who do not need it and are just feeding at the trough because they have the economic power to do so.

     
  • Joe Baxter posted at 4:28 pm on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    Joe Baxter Posts: 1903

    BTW, "udder" was on purpose.

     
  • Joe Baxter posted at 4:27 pm on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    Joe Baxter Posts: 1903

    John has a "point"? Other than his udder disdain for Bush, everything else was blowhard jibberish.

     
  • Joe Baxter posted at 4:23 pm on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    Joe Baxter Posts: 1903

    LIBERAL hogwash.

     
  • Kevin Paglia posted at 4:22 pm on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    Kevin Paglia Posts: 2086

    Since it was brought up, here is a wiki write up on Bush's military service.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_W._Bush_military_service_controversy

     
  • John Lucas posted at 4:18 pm on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    [smile] He does get out there sometimes does he not?

     
  • John Lucas posted at 4:16 pm on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    [smile]

     
  • John Lucas posted at 4:14 pm on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Good comment

    I like what Bill Moyers said.

    I’ve always thought the American eagle needed a left wing and a right wing. The right wing would see to it that economic interests had their legitimate concerns addressed. The left wing would see to it that ordinary people were included in the bargain. Both would keep the great bird on course. But with two right wings or two left wings, it’s no longer an eagle and it’s going to crash.

    Sadly the right wing has been taken over by crazy people

     
  • Kevin Paglia posted at 4:07 pm on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    Kevin Paglia Posts: 2086

    John said: "The idea that we all are equal in the sight of the law and the responsibilities that go with that. We have a Congress where legislation is sold off to the highest bidder."

    So John, how do you feel about Obama giving special exemptions to different groups so they would vote for his universal healthcare?

     
  • John Lucas posted at 4:04 pm on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    The issue of what it means to be an American will always be with us. What is interesting to me is how you do not comment on what George W Bush did during the Vietnam war or defend your voting twice for him.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 3:58 pm on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Kevin said:
    Attacking the morality and character of people who voted for Bush so long ago? Really? That is the best the liberal community has in terms of what outrages them?

    For me the saddest thing in the responses to this letter is that it seems no one understands what the real issue is. It goes to the core of the ideal of what it means to be an American. The idea that we all are equal in the sight of the law and the responsibilities that go with that. We have a Congress where legislation is sold off to the highest bidder. George W Bush using influence to get out of serving in a war he vigorously supported. It is the same thing. This issue is at the core of what is wrong in our country

    This is a place for us little people to discuss the issues of the day. I challenged those who voted for George W Bush twice to comment on what George W Bush did during the Vietnam war and defend your voting twice for him. The silence is deafening. I knew there defense would be to attack Bill Clinton. Joanne, myself and others answered those attacks. You may not like what we said but by God we spoke. THE SILENCE WAS NOT DEAFENING. Mr Chapman, Mr Baxter, Mr Kinderman, Mr Matheson etc could not be bothered to answer our question. I wonder why.

     
  • Eric Barrow posted at 3:57 pm on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    Eric Barrow Posts: 1591

    "but for a few die hard Demos, Bill would be looking for another day time job."

    Are you kidding Bill has an approval rating today of 68% with women 66% with men, 70% with 18-32 year olds and he even has a 44% among repubs.

    As for Bush if you want to claim incompetence over deceit I can get on board with that.

     
  • Eric Barrow posted at 3:49 pm on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    Eric Barrow Posts: 1591

    That really doesn't excuse Bush the lesser.

     
  • Eric Barrow posted at 3:47 pm on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    Eric Barrow Posts: 1591

    Hate to tell you Tracy but Obama wrote about his pot and cocaine use in high school and college and we elected him anyway. I don't think anyone is surprised or really cares all that much.
    I will agree with you that Hillary is a much stronger person than her husband slick Willy but don't you love the thought of him being the first gentleman, roaming around the White House . I picture a smoking jacket and slippers.

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 3:43 pm on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1663

    OK again conservatives gave us the sequester. Only a brain dead would think otherwise.

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 3:41 pm on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1663

    What wrong doing?

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 3:40 pm on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1663

    During work hours? Everyone will do it if they can get away with it. Besides I think the government was shut down so there wasn't work hours.

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 3:37 pm on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1663

    Brian
    "unfairly persecute George W. Bush." Killer Bush? Torture aproving Bush? Economic disaster Bush? And what about...oh yeah I forgot you belong to groups of folks that have sex hang-ups so Clinton is the worse demon for you.

     
  • Ed Walters posted at 3:34 pm on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    the old dog Posts: 611

    Mr. Lucas: Your post happened many years ago and I would think by now you would have moved on. How long will you continue to hold the hate you preach when you have nothing else to rant about. I recieve both papers, one from LNS and the Record in Stockton, as I would think many others do. Thought it is quite long, if you can get todays copy of the Record, read what a poster from Stockton had to say about Clinton, along with Al Gore who told us the Hussein had stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons. John Kerry in 2003 stated that the threat of Hussein with WMD us real. Read the Record, Mr. Wampler seems to have more information that is believable and for your information, Bill apologized after 6 months of living a lie and was impeached, but for a few die hard Demos, Bill would be looking for another day time job. George Bush used all the information his handlers gave him to work with and had a decession to make. And to end this conversation, when Monica Lewinsky had her dress cleaned, turns out it wasn`t seamen, it was toothpaste. Work with that Joanne

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 3:16 pm on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1663

    [thumbup]

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 3:14 pm on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1663

    [thumbup]

     
  • Joe Baxter posted at 3:05 pm on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    Joe Baxter Posts: 1903

    Clinton certainly lowered the moral bar that Americans can expect from a sitting president.

     
  • Kevin Paglia posted at 2:38 pm on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    Kevin Paglia Posts: 2086

    I see no better example of how well our politcal leaders have led us with HATE than this letter and the responses to the letter. I know I challenged the Liberals to voice their own opinion in the form of a letter, but I had assumed it would be on a current issue. Attacking the morality and character of people who voted for Bush so long ago? Really? That is the best the liberal community has in terms of what outrages them?

    And then there is the rebuttal of Ms Bobin who claims to be free on intolerance and hate (simply because it is against liberal philosophies) then accuses Tracy of experience being a "liar and a cheater".

    Then there are those on the right who continually hammer on Obama and his policies, at least no one brought up his Birth Certificate this time. Or that Clinton had an affair in the Oval office (yeah, he did and everyone knows if a Republican had done that then the liberals would still be droning on about that as well.)

    **for the record I voted for Bill once, and Bush the first time. since then I have learned just how obsessed these parties are with maintaining POWER and NOT leading the nation***

    Sadly this is the state of the Union today. We have been lead by men who sell hate and serve disharmony to stay in power as long as possible. Now that is all that we (collective as society) crave, more hate, more disharmony. In one breath they call people "friends" and with the next they accuse their "friends" of trying to destroy America. And ther pawns gobble it up with eager anticipation for the next words.

    IF a true leader, one of wisdom and compassion ever stepped out of the shadows to lead us into the next gret age of America, from either party, niether side would listen.

     
  • Joanne Bobin posted at 2:15 pm on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    Joanne Bobin Posts: 4488

    Tracy - I hate to break it to you, but there are very few uptight people who DIDN'T smoke pot in the 60's and 70's.

    I hope you don't have a meltdown when marijuana is legalized sometime in the near future.

     
  • Joanne Bobin posted at 2:13 pm on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    Joanne Bobin Posts: 4488

    Really tired of Mr. Kinderman's inexcusable expressions of "the Constitution will be changed."

    Who is going to change it, Mr. Kinderman? President Obama? Single-handedly?

    Please just stop fueling the fires of the ignorant who might actually believe your claims.

    If YOU actually believe this, I really feel sorry for you.

     
  • Mike Adams posted at 1:53 pm on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    Mike Adams Posts: 1501

    Are you sure a law was violated when "Clinton LIED to Congress. Something anyone else would have been imprisoned for."? At what point did he address Congress under oath? Members of Congress can't be sued for anything they say in session, you can check it out.

    What law was violated when President Clinton address the "Today" show veiwers when he remarked that he did not have sexual relations with Monica Lewinsky?

    Joe and Jerome are two examples of how and why the GOP has lost all focus and popular appeal and hopefully any sort of power in America in the future. The public is tired of the sexual antics of republican political leaders, the slowdown of legislation, the heaping of blame on everyone who doesn't look or talk like they do, As John implied in his letter, the problem republicans have in drawing more support are the republicans in this country. Face it GOP, your party is slowly dying. You have few if any, real leaders of America. You may have leaders of the GOP, but the GOP's influence is less and less in the country as a whole. Voters are getting smarter, yet you blame them when your candidates lose. Really, it's you. It's not us that is shrinking GOP influence. President Obama and the Democrats figured that out long ago. They don't have to do a thing, but sit and wait while the GOP runs around trying to be relevant, and failing at it in spectacular fashion.

     
  • Mike Adams posted at 1:38 pm on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    Mike Adams Posts: 1501

    Colin Powell made a commitment to W. to serve as SecState., and he kept that commitment, serving W's first term. He might have stayed on longer had he not realized that W and Chenney and all the other chicken hawks in W's administration wanted war with Iraq no matter what the cost. When presented with the first draft of his speech to the UN, Powell refused to use it, describing it as cow manure. Only after many revisions, and along with all the other manufactured evidence used to dupe the American people and congress did he aquiesce and present Bush's charges. Credit to the man for not bad mouthing W after he realized the whole case was made of lies and deciet. You can imply all you want about Powell's character as a man and pretend to be offended, but in reality, Bush knew Powell knew the real score and could no longer be part of the administration.

     
  • Jeff Tillett posted at 1:15 pm on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    Jeff Tillett Posts: 554

    thanks for confirming John's point.

     
  • Tracy Matheson posted at 12:37 pm on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    TM Matheson Posts: 7

    It was bad enough living near Arkansas and weekly hearing about his getting caught with yet another woman - he gets elected and brings more humility into the White House. Once a liar and a cheater always a liar and cheater they do not change.

     
  • Robert Chapman posted at 12:37 pm on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    Bob Chapman Posts: 997

    The mere mention of Bill Clinton and morals in the same letter is as funny as it gets.
    Thanks for the laughs.

     
  • Tracy Matheson posted at 12:29 pm on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    TM Matheson Posts: 7

    and not one person spoke about how Clinton admitted to smoking pot but he didn't inhale... what a joke - same as saying he didn't have any relations with Monica, and it does not take a rocket scientist knowing he is still with his wife because she SAID so!

     
  • John Lucas posted at 11:17 am on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    The letter is not about George W Bush. It is about you and you are still able to vote.

     
  • Jerome Kinderman posted at 11:08 am on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    Jerome R Kinderman Posts: 2367

    Let's see if I got this straight. The last time The People voted for (or against) George W. Bush was in 2004 - over eight years ago. And there are those who still want to argue against those who voted for him? Now I could understand this fixation on any former president if (and ONLY if) said former president was able to run for President again. But George W. Bush can’t do that - the Constitution says so. In less than four years from now the same will apply to the current occupant of the White House.

    Of course by that time the Constitution might be altered to permit Barack Hussein Obama to run for a third term. Considering his stellar performance so far, who wouldn't want him to stay in office indefinitely? I have an absolutely grand idea!! Why not change the title of the head of the Executive Branch of our government from "President" to "King?" “King Obama!” That has a nice ring to it, no? We might even be permitted to kiss his ring!

     
  • John Lucas posted at 10:19 am on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    I am glad to make your day. I must tell you though the letter was not about George W Bush. You and people like you was the problem I was talking about.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 10:15 am on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    All true. Though I must admit I have some sympathy for Mr Sanford. His marriage was on the rocks and the man was genuine in his love for the Argentine women. They are reportedly engaged. The problem is the party he belongs to are such hypocrites as your comment points out.

     
  • Sunny Samuels posted at 10:01 am on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    Sunny Samuels Posts: 61

    eriously John? Thats your whole argument? Or maybe you feel asleep and hit the send button on accident. I hope your research on this didn't take too much out of your seemingly busy schedule. All I got from this was that you don't like Bush. WOW! I couldn't have gotten that kind of an exciting breaking news opinion from anyone else. Thank you for being the sunshine of my day.

     
  • Joanne Bobin posted at 9:57 am on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    Joanne Bobin Posts: 4488

    That is because Mr. Baxter goes through life with blinders on - as long as the man is a Republican he can do no harm.

    Bush - Draft dodger, drug addict, drunkard, failed businessman. It's all OK in Mr. Baxter's book.

    All of the Republican Congressmen who have been involved in sexcapades? No problem!

    Picking up guys in the airport men's room? Great! Sexting underage Congressional pages? More power to him!

    Republican governor claims he's "hiking the Appalachian Trail?" Good for him! And SO good, that SC is going to re-elect him!

    There is no end to the immoral behavior that Republicans will put up with. At least those to the left of center will admit that Clinton was guilty of transgressions (and, as Mr. Kindseth so slyly asked "on the clock" - when is the President NOT "on the clock?"), while conservatives prefer to pretend it all never happened to all of those "morally upright conservatives" who got caught with their pants down.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 9:56 am on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    [smile]

     
  • Eric Barrow posted at 9:52 am on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    Eric Barrow Posts: 1591

    Jerome you been trying to spin that Powell thing for weeks it aint happening. Powell was lied to by the Bush administration it's so plain and simple. I can see why you feel the need to twist and distort it beyond all recognition otherwise reality would be difficult for your worldview to except

     
  • Eric Barrow posted at 9:45 am on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    Eric Barrow Posts: 1591

    If were getting credit for the Clinton administration just because we voted for him? Then count me in.

     
  • Joanne Bobin posted at 9:43 am on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    Joanne Bobin Posts: 4488

    Sometimes good people try to do the best with what they have - as Colin Powell did - but fortunately he woke up - albeit too late - to realize he'd been snookered by the Good Ol' Boys.

    To disparage that man's reputation, as Mr. Kinderman just has, by calling him an "innate idiot" is disgusting.

     
  • Joanne Bobin posted at 9:38 am on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    Joanne Bobin Posts: 4488

    Excellent letter, Mr. Lucas.

    As I've written before, Daddy Bush did a great job of taking his ne'er-do-well son, a failed businessman, drug addict and drunkard whose greatest aspiration was to be the baseball commissioner, dusted him off and put him in a suit, got his cronies to get him elected governor of Texas with the White House the next stop on the agenda.

    Once elected, Daddy propped him up with cabinet members from his list of war hawks and off he went - never knowing where the Good Ol' Boys were steering him. By the time he was re-elected, he suddenly realized good old D ick Cheney was leading him around by the you-know-whats and they had all sold him a bill of goods.

    Out of office he went underground as no prior ex-president has ever done before - ashamed that he had been so duped - but we still have D ick Cheney defending all the BS he sold the Congress and the American public and claiming that President Obama has put the US at risk.

    What a joke!

    And poor Jeb, the only smart one in the family - whatever chances he may have had for a presidential run were ruined when he recently stated that he was "proud of his brother's accomplishments!"

     
  • John Lucas posted at 9:25 am on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    In my comments below I already answer those questions. What is interesting to me is how you do not comment on what George W Bush did during the Vietnam war or defend your voting twice for him.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 9:21 am on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Brian if you go to church I would speak to your spiritual advisor about the subject of a "moral center". You might learn something

    He apologized, made amends and is still with his wife

    He did not seek vengeance or seek to hurt others who clearly did this out of a political agenda

    He helped the Bush administration out on many occasions and (and this really makes me mad) has defended Bush on many occasions

    He spends most of his time with his foundation that has helped millions around the world

    Like all of us he has his flaws but he is a good man and if it was not against the law would win the Presidency in a landslide

     
  • John Lucas posted at 9:06 am on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    I also note you are not defending voting twice for George W Bush or defending his actions during the Vietnam war

     
  • Joe Baxter posted at 9:04 am on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    Joe Baxter Posts: 1903

    Clinton LIED to Congress. Something anyone else would have been imprisoned for. He pointed his finger at the TV cameras and LIED to the American people saying, "I did not have sex with that woman, Ms. Lewinsky". If she hadn't kept that dress with his DNA stains, he would have gotten away with it. During his tenure as Governor of Arkansas, extramarital escapades were well known. Like I said earlier, Clinton is morally bankrupt. Poor liberals, they want to idolize their heroes sooo bad.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 9:03 am on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Jerome, you always seem to say the same thing. Lets not look at what the Republicans did in the past. Why do you think that is?

     
  • John Lucas posted at 8:50 am on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    You are correct in your assertion. Many of my friends who went home from Vietnam in body bags were draftees. Kind of makes it upfront and personal. Most of them did not support the war. They just were called by their country and answered that call. George W Bush vigorously supported that war and used political pull to get out of serving there. You think that is unfair persecution. I wonder what the thousands of draftees who gave their lives for that insanity think. We will never know. Brian you are in over your head.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 8:38 am on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    I notice that you are commenting on George Bush's behavior or defending your voting for him

     
  • Jerome Kinderman posted at 8:37 am on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    Jerome R Kinderman Posts: 2367

    I'm saddened that General Colin Powell - a man I have always had the utmost respect for as someone able to reach such lofty positions in our military and political systems - would have accepted and subsequently worked for a president he must have obviously detested. Surely this MUST call into question his own sense of morality for accepting the position of Secretary of State realizing that each morning he had to report for duty at least publically supporting what his President and Commander-in-Chief stood for. How could he live with himself then; how can he live with himself today? After all, wasn’t Powell instrumental in sending thousands of Americans to war (and many to their deaths) based upon lies about weapons of mass destruction? Surely he knew (or should have known) that his boss was corrupt; a liar; and bent on war in Iraq simply to get back at them for embarrassing his daddy. If not, then General Colin Powell must be nothing more than an innate idiot. I suppose now I no longer have to wonder why he simply didn’t resign.

    As for Clinton v. Bush insofar as moral centers are concerned - there's no comparison. Of course the author of this LTE should understand that Clinton's impeachment had nothing to do with behavior "between two consenting adults" and what they might choose to do in the White House (although I suspect that Mrs. Clinton might still have reservations regarding the matter far beyond her husband’s peccadilloes and his usage of cheapened cigars), but more about a sitting president's decision to attempt to deprive a citizen of her day in court through outright lies. So much for Bill’s moral center (and Hillary’s too as far as a former presidential wannabe). But no, it was a “vast right-wing conspiracy,” right? Hmm.

    As a nation with a quickly evaporating moral center of its own, I am even more deeply saddened and concerned about where we might be four short years from now. Indeed, just today I learn that California’s Proposition 8 might be overturned as the Devine Nine have taken it upon themselves to decide where our moral center should be. More surprises from the Chief Justice in the offing? Ooh, I can’t wait!!

    Colin Powell and George W. Bush are no longer in the spotlight. Their previous actions and opinions aren’t that important today. But our nation’s very survival is. History proves that nations with constantly shifting morality don’t last very long. As I’ve written previously here and elsewhere, I now believe that our best days are behind us – ahead is a vast unknown.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 8:35 am on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    I love this. Not one comment by those who voted for George W Bush for what he did during the Vietnam war. Not one comment about everyone makes mistakes and a person of character takes responsibility for them and makes amends as Bill Clinton did.
    Republicans seem to think that all morality is about is being against abortion and gay marriage. It is a shallow and simplistic view. The comments by them on this subject make that very clear.

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 8:33 am on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2857

    John Lucas,

    Clearly you have an agenda to unfairly persecute George W. Bush. And anyone who doesn't follow suit will be subsequently unfairly persecuted.

     
  • Andrew Liebich posted at 8:30 am on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    Andrew Liebich Posts: 2999

    I wouldn't say never.

    Barack Obama admitted he was wrong to say his uncle helped liberate the Nazis' Auschwitz concentration camp after the Republican National Committee pointed out that the Red Army had liberated Auschwitz.
    [lol]

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 8:30 am on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2857

    John Lucas,

    It is your opinion that Bush has no moral center because he hasn't apologized.

    And is it also your opinion that Clinton now has a moral center because he apologized?

     
  • John Lucas posted at 8:23 am on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Do you ever talk in anything but generalities?

     
  • John Lucas posted at 8:22 am on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    As usual you do not have your facts straight. The sequester passed both the House and the Senate and only then was signed by the President. None of this nonsense would even be happening but for the crazies that control the House and the insane use of the filibuster in the Senate. Governing is hard to do. George W Bush proved how hard it is with the disasters both foreign and domestic and the terrible mess he left the country in. It is unfortunate that the Republicans want to finish the job of destroying our economy.

     
  • John Kindseth posted at 8:18 am on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    John Kindseth Posts: 245

    That "consenting adults" thing was during work hours. Does your employer allow such ?

     
  • John Lucas posted at 8:09 am on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    I voted for Clinton twice and would do so again. Your assertion that the "vast majority of the country that Clinton has undoubtedly no moral center" is BS. Character is facing up to one's flaws and making amends for one's behavior. He apologized to the country and is still married to the women he betrayed. They worked it out. For me there are only two answers when one asks about a persons sex life. Lying about it is one but telling whoever asks it is none of their business is my preferred answer. Everyone out of the right wing knows it was a put up job. A political hatchet job orchestrated by the likes of Newt Gingrich who was having an affair at the time and is on his third wife. The only one in that whole deal (including Clinton) who acted honorably was Monica Lewinsky.

    By the way, George W Bush could not get elected to dog catcher. If Bill Clinton could run for President he would win in a landslide

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 8:07 am on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2857

    Andrew,

    Indeed, there are many aspects of the Obama Admin, that are similar to the Bush Admin. However, unlike Bush. Obama has never admiited to any wrongdoing.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 7:51 am on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Really? I am so impressed by your rebuttal to the arguments made in the letter. It was about morality and character. You are committing the same error that Mr Baxter did. I did not demonize George W Bush. His behavior speaks for itself. You voted for him twice. It seems to me you or Mr Baxter could take the time to defend that vote. I will not hold my breath.

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 7:48 am on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2857

    Mike Adams wrote:

    No one wants to vote for someone who would put them out of work,

    -Chuckle,

    Yet they voted for B.O., the author of the sequestor. The latest to give out pink slips is General Dynamics. Sources tell me it may be up to 50% percent of it's workforce. All due to the sequestor. .

     
  • Andrew Liebich posted at 7:47 am on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    Andrew Liebich Posts: 2999

    The election of President Obama was in no small part, a referendum on the administration of George W. Bush, and his victory was interpreted as a sound rebuke to eight years of open ended warfare, a vast and growing police state, the destruction of civil liberties, disregard for the Constitution, unchecked executive power, lies and broken promises, hypocrisy and arrogance, a lack of transparency in government, out-of-control federal spending, fever-pitch fearmongering, rampant corruption, and some really stupid gaffes. But what have we gotten instead?

    More of the same. A LOT more of the same. In fact, every negative aspect of the Bush Administration has come back with a vengeance in the presidency of Barack H. Obama. Everything the American people detested so strongly about Bush has not only characterized the presidency of his successor, it's gotten much worse. Don't believe me? The following is a list of 100 ways President Obama is just like President Bush. We might as well consider it a third Bush term on steroids, or call Mr. Obama "Bush 2.0." If you honestly didn't like Bush, you can't possibly justify liking Obama, not unless you ignore the facts.

    http://www.humblelibertarian.com/2011/08/bush-20-100-ways-barack-obama-is-just.html

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 7:41 am on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2857

    John Lucas wrote:


    President Bush has never apologized, and has lied repeatedly about his, but of course that is who he is. Our country paid a heavy price for electing a man with no moral center.

    The problem was not the morality and character of George W. Bush. The problem was the morality and character of those who voted for him.

    -John Lucas,

    Since you feel it was the fault of the voters who voted for Bush, logic must then be applied in the same way for those who voted for Clinton. Or do you disagree with the vast majority of the country that Clinton has undoubtedly no moral center?

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 7:33 am on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2857

    John Lucas,

    AND, As usual the beauty and magnificence of YOUR arguments leave me breathless. I am not sure if it was unparalleled logic, YOUR soaring rhetoric or YOUR amazing concise use of the English language. Whatever it was you can be sure I got the same feeling I always get when reading YOUR amazingly lucid and well thought out comments in your latest letter.

     
  • Mike Adams posted at 6:23 am on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    Mike Adams Posts: 1501

    Wow! What a rebuttal Joe. You are clearly a very deep thinker.

    Maybe some introspection about the GOP would help you. Their recent pathetic attempts to "reach out" to all the voter groups that have finally seen the light and left the GOP in droves are quite enjoyable.

    Their further delusion that a couple of speeches from some GOP stoolies from those voter groups will suddenly turn around their fortunes really shows how deeply out of touch they are. No one wants to vote for someone who would put them out of work, deny them health care, ruin public education, and on and on.

    If they had one, just one piece of legislation even offered, that would benefit the lower economic classes things might be different.

    The GOP is in the condition it is in because of the GOP, not the voters. If the GOP did something positive once in a while rather than just blaming voters, they could turn things around. They won't and it won't happen.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 5:52 am on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    As usual the beauty and magnificence of your arguments leave me breathless. I am not sure if it was unparalleled logic, your soaring rhetoric or your amazing concise use of the English language. Whatever it was you can be sure I got the same feeling I always get when reading your amazingly lucid and well thought out comments.

     
  • Joe Baxter posted at 5:39 am on Tue, Mar 26, 2013.

    Joe Baxter Posts: 1903

    Easily the lamest attempt to villify a morally bankrupt Clinton and demonize Bush I have ever read.

     

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