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We need to end all needless violence

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Posted: Thursday, December 27, 2012 12:00 am | Updated: 6:32 am, Thu Dec 27, 2012.

The Lodi News-Sentinel article "Making sense of Newtown," by Jennifer Bonnett, Maggie Creamer and Ross Farrow, was well done. Thank you.

Trying to make rhyme or reason of Newtown is difficult, because the only semblance of sense from this dastardly, bastardly deed comes from a biblical perspective and explanation. We live in perilous times, the beginning of travails of the last days; desperate and deceitful times evidenced by incredible immorality marked by corruption at all levels of church, state and business, stained by Godlessness, sexual perversion and fornication, unthankful, unmerciful, hedonistic corrupt and reprobate minds — murderers without natural affection.

But while we mourn and condemn these mass murders, and debate and speculate on how to stop them from happening, perhaps we should show our love and respect for life, and especially for the lives of our own children, by rejecting and ending Roe v. Wade and Planned Parenthood funding for the abortion murder of our precious and defenseless unborn. This would go a long way to model and imprint on the upcoming generations of their value and the esteem in which we hold them. If we are really serious about ending the violence in our land, let's start by ending the holocaust in the womb.

My dear old dad always said, "The heart of the problem is always a problem with the heart."

William Van Amber Fields

Morada

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76 comments:

  • Patrick W Maple posted at 3:47 am on Tue, Jan 1, 2013.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1805

    I question those who use the argument of "viability" of life...isn't it always viable until it is stopped? Or destroyed? Or killed? Or naturally disposed of? Isn't the process of viability begun at birth when an egg becomes a fertilized egg?

     
  • Jerome Kinderman posted at 10:24 pm on Mon, Dec 31, 2012.

    Jerome R Kinderman Posts: 2315

    Of all the comparisons in support of abortion (or at the very least ignoring it), this has to be the most absurd.

     
  • Robert Jacobs posted at 7:34 am on Mon, Dec 31, 2012.

    Robert Jacobs Posts: 298

    William Van Amber Fields, I might agree with you, but I would comment when you stop driving down the freeway and city streets while talking on your cell phone and driving too fast, and following too closely I might actually take up your cause!

    While I agree abortion is wrong, people in this nation and the way they drive those vehicles kill a zillion times more people than abortion does and its absolutely preventable! I guess killing people on our nations roadways is an acceptable loss...

    Of course you would never give up that cell phone or the fact that you feel Invincible while driving your vehicle anyway you please down the road, which is usually dangerously!

     
  • Patrick W Maple posted at 7:49 pm on Sun, Dec 30, 2012.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1805

    Ted: Enjoy your your posts. I do.

     
  • Patrick W Maple posted at 7:47 pm on Sun, Dec 30, 2012.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1805

    ...to a human condition or problem is to post a lazy response of a lazy mind of a lazy person lacking in person or character. Thus the creation of smiley faces to circumvent word...the erasure of the value of words and languages. The use of a grunt will soon be appropriate in their world. Smiley face, yawn/phony intelligence.

     
  • Ted Lauchland posted at 5:26 pm on Sun, Dec 30, 2012.

    Ted Lauchland Posts: 253

    Just for clarification - life is fragile no matter what stage of development or existance. To declare that it is not human in the womb a quick DNA test proves not only human but an individual as well. Nurturing life at age 50 years is just as necessary as nurturing life at one week in the womb. Life is life with it's own individualities.
    My use of the term Human Being refers to an age of self awareness and established learned abilities well past the naturally instilled instincts from a will to survive. A one day old baby would not survive without care.

    I fight for the life of the plants I have in the ground from the time it is a seed to when it finally dies. Life is life. Everything else is irresponsible.

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 7:36 pm on Sat, Dec 29, 2012.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1296

    [sleeping]

     
  • Patrick W Maple posted at 6:03 pm on Sat, Dec 29, 2012.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1805

    JK: "...the only power I have to stop this human slaughter is through my voice." Well put. I admire the manner in which you present your argument. Wisdom is to be used and passed on like the air that we breathe. What I say is not mine...but yours.

    I use to say that we are all smart in our own ways...but with some here on this post I have to stretch the statement a bit too much.

    And JK: "And to think all it would take is a little forethought, a couple of dollars and a little caring to avoid one senseless death. THAT DB is wisdom.

     
  • Jerome Kinderman posted at 5:35 pm on Sat, Dec 29, 2012.

    Jerome R Kinderman Posts: 2315

    Of course I must be engaging in mindless hysteria because I believe that human life begins at conception and that it is precious. So yes indeed, I should join with the masses who might have never seen the pictures of the little hands, fingers, ears, noses, toes after they've been ripped from the comfort of their mother's wombs by the abortionists' vacuums in believing that all that was removed was a pile of useless tissue. Such pictures are very easy to find on the Internet. For those so inclined to see what happens to our aborted unborn children I'll leave it up to them to become so "enlightened" that they'd enthusiastically encourage women to have an abortion if the time just isn't right to have a baby. And to think all it would take is a little forethought, a couple of dollars and a little caring to avoid one senseless death. But I suppose we've all become too busy for such mindless hysteria.

    But here's the thing - the only power I have to stop this human slaughter is through my voice. And the last time I checked, the First Amendment to the Constitution is still intact. By the way, there is no "right" to an abortion. The only thing the Supreme Court decided through Roe v. Wade was that such practices were not un-Constitutional. Of course the make-up of the court in 1973 was decidedly different than it is today; but with Justice Roberts now in the unpredictable column insofar as his opinions are concerned, if this matter were to ever again be considered by the Nine Justices in Washington, it could be an interesting battle indeed. After nearly 40 years (celebration time is fast approaching, huh?) I think it's well beyond time to re-visit this travesty.

    Isn’t 40,000,000 enough?

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 3:33 pm on Sat, Dec 29, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9403

    Mr Heuer stated...Darrell...You continue to remind everyone that it is impossible to have a civil, intelligent conversation with you...

    You think so Mr Heuer????????? Thank you. Coming from an insensitive liberal like yourself, I consider your words a wonderful complement. Please post more.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 3:29 pm on Sat, Dec 29, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9403

    Pat, why is it that your posts make so much sense? Maybe because they reflect common sense...I have always cosidered Indians a wise people. You are a credit to your ancestors.... Funny... a German like me thinks Indians are wise... maybe I am bananas.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 3:23 pm on Sat, Dec 29, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9403

    Mr Heuer tated...Why would I encourage anyone to have an abortion especially "enthusiasticly

    Exactly my thought Mr. Heuer. You should be ashamed.... but of course, you as a liberal are
    shameless.

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 2:34 pm on Sat, Dec 29, 2012.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1296

    Jerome asks "Is it really different ?" Yes it is but you'll refuse to see the difference. You have surrounded yourself with those who react in like fashion with you and you worry they will think ill of you if you start to think rationally. I understand your wish to cling to the hysteria because it elevates your esteem among them. So be it and carry on trying to demonize people trying to make them feel miserable and making your world gloomy and miserable seeing the glass as half empty. Happy new year

     
  • Patrick W Maple posted at 1:21 pm on Sat, Dec 29, 2012.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1805

    mrh: How can you be in your infancy at such an elderly age?

    Ted: It is a fight for life...

    mrh: I suppose you can say that a fetus/child kicking at its mother's stomach isn't alive...

    Ted: Well written posts.

    mrh: If the thing in a mother's stomach isn't alive then why do they use the term kill to describe what is done to it during an abortion?

    mrh: Obviously you believe you are smarter than most doctors and the USSC.

    msk: Rarity is in play here and has been addressed by the courts. Drug cartels...yet we are trying to leaglize drugs here in the US? Barbaric??...one form of murder/death has nothing to do with the other

     
  • Jerome Kinderman posted at 11:46 am on Sat, Dec 29, 2012.

    Jerome R Kinderman Posts: 2315

    I'm truly sorry Mr. Jien - I don't understand your point. The issue at hand is abortion in the United States of America. Had I been sitting at a desk tapping on my keyboard in any of those countries you mention in your post, I am certain the subject matter would be quite different.

    Nevertheless, it's still about mass killings, is it not? Is it really different that 2.1 million unborn babies were killed last year at the hands of "doctors" according to the law in place here? In my opinion sir, government-sanctioned killing is far worse than any you mentioned because of this one fact: here it's We the People who want it to remain this way. It's legal. People actually make money doing it.

    What does that say about us, Mr. Jien?

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 11:39 am on Sat, Dec 29, 2012.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1296

    Great comments.
    I agree we have a lot of living people that need our support and sympathies. It is pure luxury here in this country to feel the only concern in the world is the unborn.

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 11:33 am on Sat, Dec 29, 2012.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1296

    Darrell
    You continue to remind everyone that it is impossible to have a civil, intelligent conversation with you. Your "I am glad people like Mr Heuer did not convince her mother to kill her unborn child as he so enthusiastically would have" really illustrates how you fail to grasp the simplest concepts to be able to, in mature fashion, to continue the dialogue. Just more emotionalhysteria. Why would I encourage anyone to have an abortion especially "enthusiasticly?" As I have said before I am over 60 yrs old and have no need for such services but I feel it should be available to those who may need it. I despise the tyranny of those who would dictate, via mindless hysteria, how others should conduct their lives.

    Your link lacks some information like;
    1. How many premies survive out of how many died
    2. What manner of technology and intervention was necessary to enable life
    3. What were the related health issues experienced after birth and beyond

    The article may be a testament to modern science which also allows some women over 40 (even up to 60 years) to now have babies (even multiple births). Because it is doable doens't address a host of other issues raised as a result. Its like kids wanting to be actors or sports or rock stars yeah it can be done but the competition is so great the likely hood is slim. So unless you have something more intelligent to add this conversation is over.

     
  • Jien Kaur posted at 10:03 am on Sat, Dec 29, 2012.

    Jien Kaur Posts: 39

    Commentor Mr. Jerome said, "Does anyone here actually not understand the process that occurs to abort a human baby? Now THAT's barbaric! Especially late-term abortions where an instrument is thrust through the soft spot on the top of a baby's head as it's coming forth that would scramble the brains until it truly does become nothing but a mass of unviable tissue just shy of citizenship and protection under the law."

    Injustice in the world. A mass grave is uncovered in Sudan - all butchered with machetes including babies. A mass grave is uncovered in Mexico - all shot by drugs cartels including babies. A mass grave is uncovered in Libya 1200 anti Gaddafi men executed by automatic weapons fire but babies were spared.

    A fellow countrywoman died of her injuries in a Singapore hospital yesterday after being beaten and gang raped on a bus by six men in my home state of New Delhi.

    Luck to her if she was impregnated and survived this barbarism some would have her carry the baby of rape and brutality to breathe the air.

     
  • Jien Kaur posted at 9:00 am on Sat, Dec 29, 2012.

    Jien Kaur Posts: 39

    Commenter Mr. Darrell said, "I am glad people like Mr Heuer did not convince her mother to kill her unborn child as he so enthusiastically would have."

    Ah I learn more about America and English that Mr. Darrell can say Mr. Thomas is a murderer of babys or a peoples who encourages other peoples to murder babies.

    America is very interesting.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 8:44 am on Sat, Dec 29, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2726

    perfect! [beam]

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 7:06 am on Sat, Dec 29, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9403

    Mr Heuer states...So define life before you condem someone to hell...

    Ok... sounds good. Let's meet Amillia Taylor, a baby born and alive. How old was she when she was born? 22 weeks old... yes, She was born at less than 22 weeks - in the US, where babies aren't considered 'viable' until 23 weeks.

    She is growing up strong and healthy. So when did her life begin? Where does Mr Heuer draw the line. Evidently he believes he is god and define when life begins. Is it at 20 weeks....18 weeks... 4 weeks? Maybe Mr Heuer can look in the eye of this child and without feeling tell her she was not life ... but I could not.

    Included is a link that shows this happy baby and her mother. I am glad people like Mr Heuer did not convince her mother to kill her unborn child as he so enthusiastically would have.

    http://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&sa=X&tbo=d&rlz=1C1CHMO_enUS509US509&biw=1360&bih=667&tbm=isch&tbnid=aIz1UANzEVmO9M:&imgrefurl=http://ohbabybabyblog.com/2011/06/19/most-premature/&docid=EaL8F9kF-k3P_M&imgurl=http://ohbabybabyblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Most-Premature-Baby-4.jpg&w=448&h=299&ei=kAXfUMq8IMmErAGujIGwDQ&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=846&vpy=359&dur=2399&hovh=183&hovw=275&tx=160&ty=101&sig=107487346282736432087&page=1&tbnh=131&tbnw=197&start=0&ndsp=31&ved=1t:429,r:29,s:0,i:185

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 4:24 am on Sat, Dec 29, 2012.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1296

    Hmmm you could be on to something
    [smile]

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 3:29 am on Sat, Dec 29, 2012.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1296

    MR Kinderman
    I am ignoring you insult "no one of substance."
    It all comes down to what you want your definition of life to be. Does just the beating heart constitute life? Even if there is no brain activity? This was the case of Karen Shivo the lady who had lost all brain fuction but looked alive with eyes open and facial tics (and of course beating heart). There was no sense of identity, no recognition of any people present or sense of self determination. It was not a coma where the person might regain some semblance of their former personality. No she was dead.

    A hysteria fit by many who felt they knew more than the doctors. They thought turning off her life support was tantamount to murder even though the doctors declared she was no longer the Karen Shivo everyone remembered including her husband. She had no cognitive ability because she was brain dead. An empty shell requireing life support and, as in your drama ridden words, "nothing but a mass of unviable tissue." Of course like CPR you can keep the heart beating and blood circulating but if LIFE doesn't return your no longer supporting life just the tissues.

    This is the state of the fetus. No brain activity (brain dead) no sense of self or surroundings, exists on life support (couldn't live outside the womb before term). An abortion is a medical procedure on bodily tissue not that different from an apendectomy. Yes the "potential" for more is there but not in the womb especially in the first trimester.

    So define life before you condem someone to hell. The supreme court can determine that "that “human "physical" life begins when a human ovum is fertilized by a human sperm” but that doesn't hold that there also is a mental capacity to think, dream, self identify, have goals, participate in an exchange of conversation, recognize family (or anyone for that matter), which would make the definition of human life.
    A cow or a pig meets the simplest definitions of life however we don'thesitate to slaughter them for a steak or pork chop. Or would you hold there are levels of life we can decide what to kill and for what reason. Arguments rage today on the need for meat.
    The fetus is litle more than human tissue of its mother no more or maybe less than what remained of the lady who once was known as Karen Shivo. To see more is an antropomorphic exercise. Much like the exercise shared by some with their pet rocks (animism) in the 1960s or 70s. Or you might be able to relate better to the idea of idol worship. Seeing/believing more than what is actually there. Men went to war for a chunk of stone especially if it had jeweled eyes and was plated with gold and a place to put a candle.
    So there is no life before the first breath. Just the potential.

     
  • Jerome Kinderman posted at 10:23 pm on Fri, Dec 28, 2012.

    Jerome R Kinderman Posts: 2315

    I know of no one of substance who would argue against the being formed within the womb of a woman as human "life." The only thing that is "potential" is whether or not someone else might grant him or her the opportunity to breathe just once so that his or her life will continue. Well, if the majority of women actually feel the way that most liberals do regarding the sanctity of the life they carry within them for nine months, then once again I must insist that our society is on the downhill side and we truly have already seen our better days.

    As for men being barbaric or arrogant because if we're expected to take responsibility once the baby is born that we might expect at least a little consideration about whether or not it should be allowed to live longer than its first nine months inside the womb. But no - that arrogance and barbarism rests ONLY with the woman. Does anyone here actually not understand the process that occurs to abort a human baby? Now THAT's barbaric! Especially late-term abortions where an instrument is thrust through the soft spot on the top of a baby's head as it's coming forth that would scramble the brains until it truly does become nothing but a mass of unviable tissue just shy of citizenship and protection under the law.

    Would you like to actually see what one looks like after the procedure is complete? Barbaric indeed. And who is it exactly that gets to make that unilateral decision?

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 8:15 pm on Fri, Dec 28, 2012.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1296

    Thank you Ted for adding to a point I've been making. When you said "nor is it a fight between womens rights and the new potential human being." you illustrate my contention that there is no life before the first breath, only a potential new human being. How can it be oherwise? It could be still born or miscarried and the potential is not realized. Or it may be born and truely be the newest member of the human race.

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 7:59 pm on Fri, Dec 28, 2012.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1296

    And of course for the 9,392 time you are again wrong.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 7:52 pm on Fri, Dec 28, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9403

    Mr Heuer stated... It is barbaric and arrogant that the man would have say over the womans decisions.

    Mr Kinderman, I have no idea how Mr Heuer could associate
    his statement above to you after all the posts and references you have made about women's rights... maybe he is joking.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 7:47 pm on Fri, Dec 28, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9403

    Mr Heuer's perception...Someone so controlling could be construed as bullying (Re Mr. Kinderman)

    Odd, when I read Mr Kinderman's posts on this subject, I conclude he is coming from a position of love and compassion for innocent life.

    The only bully I see are the rude and vicious comments coming from the liberals.

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 7:35 pm on Fri, Dec 28, 2012.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1296

    MR Kinderman uses the term "be more responsible" loosly. MR Kinderman has shown over and over here that he "demands" his will be done or he will post (repeating himself) till we are blue in the face. Being responsible assumes the person has their life as controlled as he apparently controls all aspects of his life. Someone so controlling could be construed as bullying. There are many abortions that are the result of rape of even responsible people who did everything right but were forced into an unwanted position. Youth carries with it vulnerabilities that involve trust and ignorance. Incest is one of those where they trusted a family member who placed them in an unwanted situation. And to all conservatives who like to call people ignorant or stupid you should realize there are actually stupid people out there who really can't take care of themselves and get themselves into unwanted situations. There are those who act responsibly but are either knowingly or unknowingly drugged and taken advantage of and find themselves in unwanted situations. There are mentally challenged people who are taken advantage of by the unscrupulous. Most people sexually active do take responsible steps to avoid pregnancy. So to act as the paragon of virtue here is really displaying the height of insensitivity and lack of awareness of the real world. You choose a philosophy that can only be practiced with fortunate, if not exacted, circumstances in life.
    Not everyone has your command of their circumstances in life. And men have no rights in the reproductive decisions of the woman unless she gives them to you. It is barbaric and arrogant that the man would have say over the womans decisions.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 7:26 pm on Fri, Dec 28, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9403

    Ted stated...It is a fight for life and the responsibility of that life... It is not a fight between Religion and non believers nor is it a fight between womens rights and the new potential human being.

    Great post Ted. Thanks for the clarity.

     
  • Ted Lauchland posted at 5:49 pm on Fri, Dec 28, 2012.

    Ted Lauchland Posts: 253

    I believe in marriage and it's purpose. Stability as a family unit means everything to our generations to come. They potentially quickly become lost without it. What I read here does not reflect that any of the posters have ever experienced a miscarriage. There would be no doubt in your minds as to when life begins if you have.
    It is not a fight between Reps and Dems. It is not a fight between Religion and non believers nor is it a fight between womens rights and the new potential human being.
    It is a fight for life and the responsibility of that life. Tears come forth for all the years past and yet to come. To see who has died and who is here now and how our potential posterity looks for the future. Families look very different today than they have in recent history and I can not envision what they may look like in the forseeable future without a good strong belief in life itself. Some point in ancient history we have been here before though. If we don't know those experiences we will no doubt repeat them.
    Stop being selfish about yourself and care about the future why don't cha! You can logic this all you want but it will fall short every time in my mind.

    "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you " exists in every category of politics, freedoms, economic systems and simple human relations. Free enterprise is a celebration of freedoms. Being down and out is also a celebration of freedoms. Free will is what the USA has to offer. A hand up as our fearless leader chooses to quote exists with or without government . So does greed.

    A fight for life is all of that

     
  • Jerome Kinderman posted at 5:25 pm on Fri, Dec 28, 2012.

    Jerome R Kinderman Posts: 2315

    Really, abortions are not a "primary" form of birth control in this country? Just how many times are we expected to believe other "primary" forms fail that would have roughly 1.2 million abortions performed each year? Wow! That's a staggering number. I wonder how the companies that offer other forms of birth control manage to stay in business since they fail so often. I'm sorry, but I don't buy the notion that the majority of these abortions were performed as a result of other forms of birth control failing.

    I DO believe that most women and a great number of men as well are responsible with their birth control methods. That being said, for so many abortions performed in the United States to be so high would mean that too many are either simply lazy or they leave to chance whether or not they'll get pregnant. And when they do find themselves with a bun in the oven, that's when they head to their friendly neighborhood abortionist for a bunectomy (sounds cute, huh?).

    Now using that 1.2 million yearly figure of abortions performed in the United States, that would mean conservatively speaking, 40 million babies have been lost to an abortionist's vacuum (or other means) since Roe v. Wade brought with it our "enlightened" society. I am SO proud of US.

    Forty Million human lives that never had a chance. We're a disgrace to mankind.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 4:19 pm on Fri, Dec 28, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9403

    Ms Kaur...As a man who thinks women, both married and unmarried, are in general superior to men in character and compassion, I think your conclusion is badly misguided.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 4:13 pm on Fri, Dec 28, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9403

    Mr. Lucas is not the norm in our country as evidenced by his ultra-liberal views and intolerant attitudes. Most woman are insulted by his attitude as evidenced by the recent gallop pole that identified more women are prolife than prochoice.

    Mr. Lucas’s world is dark and darker

     
  • John Lucas posted at 3:09 pm on Fri, Dec 28, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2726

    It is not the "primary" form of birth control but for those rare occasions where the primary method fails. I know you like the idea that they should give up sex but it is not going to happen nor should it.

     
  • Jerome Kinderman posted at 3:04 pm on Fri, Dec 28, 2012.

    Jerome R Kinderman Posts: 2315

    Were you unwanted Mr. Ingram? If not, then how could you possibly know how terrible an experience it was. And if you were, do you wish you had been aborted? While there may be some here who might think the solution to these throwaway babies is abortion, I obviously disagree.

    As for your son's "wonderful solution," I think a better answer would be for all of us to simply be more responsible in every aspect of our lives. There are many forms of birth control that work very well and should be paid for by those who choose to use them. A condom is relatively cheap as are birth control pills. In fact, clinics such as Planned Parenthood hand them out practically for free - a small donation is all they ever ask.

    As for vasectomies, they are reversible but must be conducted relatively soon after the original "snip." While young people should certainly be taught and encouraged to wait to have children, to suggest that they never have children would be to deny themselves the greatest joy life has to offer.

     
  • Patrick W Maple posted at 2:49 pm on Fri, Dec 28, 2012.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1805

    mrbob: I offered no solution in my post, it was simply to point out the ignorance of at least one person in this post....as it began. Our society has gotten to the point of "it is your body and you can do with it as you please"...the problem is that when THEY do so, WE end up paying for it. This does not let men off the hook either. As Mr Kinderman noted...they do not heed the responsibility attached to decisions and choices.

     
  • Jerome Kinderman posted at 2:49 pm on Fri, Dec 28, 2012.

    Jerome R Kinderman Posts: 2315

    Is Jien Kaur confused? She writes: "I am sad that Mr. Jerome has such a bitter experience with women that he believes this is the attitude women take when one decides to abort. Even more, it is shocking to find out that these are the attitudes American women have toward abortion."

    So Ms. Kaur is saddened because of her inaccurately assumed perception of my experiences with women that I would believe women take such a cavalier attitude toward abortion but then states that she’s even more shocked to find out that this is precisely how American women take the issue of abortion. Apparently Ms. Kaur read Mr. Lucas's comments that: "There is no 100% form of birth control. Until there is you are forcing women to have children they did not plan to have. A woman (sic) right to decide at what time in her life to have a child cannot be denied her." Here I agree with Mr. Lucas that the primary purpose of abortion in the United States is not for pregnancies resulting from rape or incest (as so many would have us believe) but rather as a primary form of birth control. After all, along with abstinence, abortion is clearly a 100% reliable form of birth control; but not by avoiding pregnancy – just disposing of one. So rather than try to control our baser instincts when it comes to sexual relations, let’s just kill the kids in the womb. And coming soon to a clinic near everyone: ObamaCare will pay for it too!

     
  • Bobcatbob Ingram posted at 1:29 pm on Fri, Dec 28, 2012.

    99er Posts: 119

    Mr Pat .... has your solution worked as well as You'd like ??

     
  • Patrick W Maple posted at 1:15 pm on Fri, Dec 28, 2012.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1805

    mrh: The US Supreme Court ruled last June:..." the court’s decision were a boon for pro-life groups in Indiana and the whole nation. The reason is because the court upheld a key portion of the bill that requires women seeking abortions to be informed that “human physical life begins when a human ovum is fertilized by a human sperm.”

    It seems that some who post here have never grown past that point.

    mrbob: As has been pointed out numerous times on these posts...there are PLENTY of ways to have sex without getting pregnant. We spend billions of dollars each year on sex education...has it made a difference? No. Peruse the data.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 1:11 pm on Fri, Dec 28, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2726

    Mr Kinderman is not the norm in this country though his views are a sizable minority. Women do not take the attitude he describes. Mr kinderman's world is pretty black or white.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 1:07 pm on Fri, Dec 28, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2726

    Darrell as long as the Republican party continues it's policies towards women's reproductive health they will never win another national election. Women overall vote Democratic by a large margin. I know your "perception" is otherwise but that is the reality. Many of your "perceptions" follow this pattern.

     
  • Jien Kaur posted at 12:57 pm on Fri, Dec 28, 2012.

    Jien Kaur Posts: 39

    Yes, I see that only married and respectable women voted for Mr. Romney while loose and unrespectable unmarried women voted for Mr. Obama.

    What does this say about American mens views toward unmarried women? I'm not sure.

     
  • Bobcatbob Ingram posted at 12:54 pm on Fri, Dec 28, 2012.

    99er Posts: 119

    Being UNWANTED at birth is a terrible experience and we must stop it if we can.

    My son told me a wonderful solution, ........... perhaps the Young folks are on to something !

    Offer every male in America 18 -> 30 , $2,000 dollars to get a free vasectomy. Thats right , they fill out a form and 10 days later they can get the snip, the check for $2,000
    and the blessings of the world for helping with needful population control.

    If You think We can't afford $2,000 , study Up on what it cost to raise up an unwanted child.

     
  • Jien Kaur posted at 12:39 pm on Fri, Dec 28, 2012.

    Jien Kaur Posts: 39

    The commentor, Mr. Jerome, said, "But no – take the easy road: a few hundred bucks then hook up the ol’ vacuum and dispose of “it.” After a day or so, get all gussied up, go out on the town, meet a dude and do it all over again. Yeah – aren’t we all so enlightened?!?"

    I am sad that Mr. Jerome has such a bitter experience with women that he believes this is the attitude women take when one decides to abort. Even more, it is shocking to find out that these are the attitudes American women have toward abortion.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 11:47 am on Fri, Dec 28, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9403

    Mr kinderman stated...I'm trying to stand for the unborn children who aren't even given the chance to live their lives while pursuing their own brand of happiness. They're cut down on the wrong side of the reproductive revolving door. then later stated... So to heck with politics...

    I think Mr Kinderman articulated compassion and principles quite clearly. Thank you!

     
  • Jerome Kinderman posted at 11:11 am on Fri, Dec 28, 2012.

    Jerome R Kinderman Posts: 2315

    So women won't stand for anyone getting in the way of exercising their reproductive rights. What about men's reproductive rights? Or much more important: what about both gender's reproductive RESPONSIBILITIES?

    As a nation we should not stand for these mass murders that are perpetrated on a daily basis. In case no one else understands where I stand, to be perfectly clear I don't give a whit about the politics of this issue. I'm trying to stand for the unborn children who aren't even given the chance to live their lives while pursuing their own brand of happiness. They're cut down on the wrong side of the reproductive revolving door.

    Personal Responsibility is no longer expected of anyone - there's an excuse for all aberrant behavior that range from bi-polar to exercising reproductive "rights." With ALL of our God given rights comes innate responsibility that must be exercised in order for our society to survive and thrive.

    Gun control is at the fore once more due to the horrific murders in Connecticut. I'm quite relieved that we're talking about it around kitchen tables all across the country. But naturally the "progressives" amongst us are blaming the guns for what happened and what has been happening for years. They're purposely ignoring the issue of Second Amendment RESPONSIBILITY. I'm laughing at those who truly believe (or pretend to believe) that gathering up all these so-called "assault" weapons will reduce the number of murders. All data proves the opposite to be true. Why? Because the bad guys will ALWAYS have access to guns. So it's not the guns - it's the people who wield them.

    I equate anyone who aborts an unborn child to someone who appropriates a gun and would point it at the head of a child while pulling the trigger with impunity. The result is the same, is it not? A human being is vanquished. And why? Aww, because a woman decides it’s just not a good time for HER to have a baby. Where were these thoughts as she was engaging in sexual relations without making sure that she was protected from not only disease but pregnancy? Sure, no anti-pregnancy measures are 100% reliable – but if used properly AND regularly, they’re pretty darn close! As for the few who do wind up pregnant as a result of something going wrong, what is so bad about giving birth to the unwanted child and giving him/her to a couple who would provide it with a chance at living? Oh no, that would be too inconvenient! The stretch marks; the whispers; and the best of all: “I’ll never be a size 2 again!!!” Oh the horror!! But wait!! What about the father of these unborn babies? Why aren’t they given a voice; why is this all up to the woman? Now if she decides it IS the right time for HER to have a baby, be assured that she’ll demand nearly nineteen years of support from the father even if it isn’t the right time for HIM to have a baby! So much for “equality” amongst the genders. (Grow up ladies. If you’re expecting to make all these decisions unilaterally, go all the way. Don’t all of a sudden become pathetic little girls unable to fend for yourselves.)

    So to heck with politics – I really don’t care if Republicans won’t occupy the White House ever again if they continue to keep personal responsibility as part of their platform. Without it, what are we anyway? Just a mob of uncontrollable people. What a wonderful country it is, huh? Not anymore.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 10:44 am on Fri, Dec 28, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9403

    I sincerely find it meaningless to read you wish a Happy New Year to me. I just do not care one way or the other. Since I think liberals are insincere as a group, anything positive or negative has no value.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 9:57 am on Fri, Dec 28, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9403

    Mr Lucas stated...Why do you think women vote overwhelmingly Democratic?

    question of my own... Why do you think a majority of married woman voted for Romney?

    Nothing is as constant as change. You have a perception that women will see democrats as servicing their best interests. Keep dreaming Mr Lucas. It fits you.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 9:49 am on Fri, Dec 28, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9403

    I see Mr Lucas is quickly doing the two step slip sliding shuffle while backing away from his silly statement that "women will not stand for it"... yes, gallop has identified more women as pro life... and many women have voted for women that are pro life.

    As normal, perception and reality rarely meet in "Lucas World" Even in the sea world, seals just clap their fins and cheer on" Lucas World "perception.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 9:32 am on Fri, Dec 28, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2726

    There are clear differences between the two parties. The larger agenda you speak of is those who own both the Republican party and the Conservative media entertainment complex. The idea you are stating right now is something they want people who do not in zombie like follow the Republican line to believe. You accuse others of being a pawn but maybe you should do a little introspection.

     
  • Kim Parigoris posted at 9:15 am on Fri, Dec 28, 2012.

    Kim Parigoris Posts: 469

    I get so sick and tired of this fabricated war between Republican and Democrat. Can't you see we are being played as pawns in the quest of a much loftier agenda to destroy this country? As long as they keep the 2 parties pitted against each other, they will win. Don't fall in to the trap. This country is more divided now that ever in my life and I lived through the civil rights era..There is more racism (from both sides) and they now have the "haves" and the "have not's" pitted against each other. If they can take America down, they have grasped the brass ring, and they are doing a pretty good job of it...

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 9:08 am on Fri, Dec 28, 2012.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1296

    Now thats a fact John

     
  • John Lucas posted at 7:54 am on Fri, Dec 28, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2726

    Why do you think women vote overwhelmingly Democratic?

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 7:17 am on Fri, Dec 28, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9403

    Mr Lucas stated...Women will not stand for it. ( he is a man, what would he know)

    All the following powerful women disagree strongly with Mr Lucas...


    The Gallup organization recently concluded that “abortion polling since the mid-1970s finds few remarkable distinctions between men’s and women’s views on the legality of abortion.” It has found that 48 percent of American women consider themselves pro-life, while 45 percent consider themselves pro-choice.
    All the following are pro life... a small list...appears Mr Lucas was again distorting reality. These women were elected with the public knowing their pro life stance.


    Congresswomen Ann Wagner, representative Jackie Walorski, Representative Deb Fischer, surgeon Renee Ellmers, Congressman Ann Marie Buerkle, Congresswoman Diane Black, Senator Kelly Ayotte,Representative Jean Schmidt, Congresswoman Ileana Ros-Lehtinen, congresswomen Sue Myrick, Congresswomen Candice Miller, Congresswoman McMorris Rodgers, Congresswomen Cynthia Lummis, Congresswomen Virginia Fox, Congresswomen Mary Fallin, Congresswomen Marsha Blackburn, Congresswomen Michele Backman, governor Susana Martinez, governor Nikki Haley, former lieutenant governor Jane Norton,

     
  • Jerome Kinderman posted at 12:45 am on Fri, Dec 28, 2012.

    Jerome R Kinderman Posts: 2315

    Oh, I know that since we're at the very bottom of the animal kingdom we can’t possibly resist those primal urges. When it hits us to have sex, then go for it!! There's no way to stop it. So if a child just happens to be the result of these irresistible urges (collateral damage per se), then by all means abort "it." And Jien Kaur actually believes that we're in “such a progressive” society? We're nothing but face down in the primordial ooze of depravity.

    If a woman doesn’t think it’s the right time in her life to have a child then she should make certain that she doesn’t get pregnant. Along with whatever she should do to ensure this, she should also insist that her partner take adequate precautions against pregnancy. Nevertheless, if a “mistake” were to occur (not a human being – but a MISTAKE), then I would expect that anyone with an ounce of humanity flowing in their veins would welcome “it” and then do all they can to give “it” a good life. But no – take the easy road: a few hundred bucks then hook up the ol’ vacuum and dispose of “it.” After a day or so, get all gussied up, go out on the town, meet a dude and do it all over again. Yeah – aren’t we all so enlightened?!?

    In a word – unbelievable! But it IS life in these United States. I wonder how Norman Rockwell might capture such an Americana event if he were alive today.

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 12:04 am on Fri, Dec 28, 2012.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1296

    [smile][thumbup]
    Good point John

     
  • John Lucas posted at 10:33 pm on Thu, Dec 27, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2726

    There is no 100% form of birth control. Until there is you are forcing women to have children they did not plan to have. A woman right to decide at what time in her life to have a child cannot be denied her. I hope the Republican party continues to try to stop this because I oppose so much of their economic ideas. You may think you are making a moral stand but politically it is the death knell for the Republican party. Women will not stand for it.

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 10:27 pm on Thu, Dec 27, 2012.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1296

    I agree Mr Kaur
    And I agree with Mr Barrow these people "scare the crap out of me" as well. They represent tyranny in the highest order if they should ever find their way into power.
    They seldom care about the living whether they are poor, elderly, gay, ethnic minorities,rights of women, freethinkers and would have little hesitance to reinstitute heresy laws: A western form of sharia.

    As I've said before there is no life before the first breath. Now you can emotionalize to the point of hysteria what abortion is but you do so to the exclusion of what true caring is which is giving what you can to those who are needy, as Mr Kaur describes, and are actually living among us.

    Serve these before you serve the nonliving.

    Otherwise the nonliving will never truely feel welcome and all the opining and protestations will be received as the hypocracy it is.

     
  • Jerome Kinderman posted at 9:43 pm on Thu, Dec 27, 2012.

    Jerome R Kinderman Posts: 2315

    I personally know of no men who wish to deny any woman (American or otherwise) control of their "own" bodies and reproductive systems. In fact, what they choose to do with and to themselves as long as they don't violate the rights of anyone else is perfectly fine by me.

    It's when the neediest of our oh-so "progressive society" are not only ignored and or abused, but systemically destroyed out of sheer convenience to those entrusted with carrying and caring for them that I must continue to take issue. Oh, we can argue until we're blue in the face about our unborn children not being protected by the U.S. Constitution due to the lack of one breath of air, but the absolute truth of the matter is they are human, they are babies and we care more for trees than we do for them.

    There's nothing progressive about any society that not only permits abortions, but actually expects taxpayers to fund them for those who simply won't take simple precautions against becoming pregnant. But to compare us who wish to save these innocent lives to those who practice genital mutilation is just plain nonsense. In fact, it's evil.

    As for desiring to give more protection to the unborn than to those already breathing air is equally as stupid. All it takes is a little personal responsibility and we'd might have a society of which we could be aptly proud. But ever since 1973 and the millions of murdered unborn children that followed, I believe the United States ranks right up there with communist China where millions of its daughters will remain unaccounted for because their boys outrank females in value. Here we simply apply no value to our unborn regardless of gender. Well, I suppose we can be proud of the fact that we don't discriminate against those who get to live or die before being given the chance to have a life at all.

    When it comes to this so-called "woman's right to choose," we're a nation in utter disgrace. And until we change, we'll never be great again.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 7:47 pm on Thu, Dec 27, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2726

    This is the sort of comment that proves my point about you helping the Liberal cause

     
  • John Lucas posted at 5:09 pm on Thu, Dec 27, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2726

    the last sentence should read

    By keeping them focused on abortion it takes their minds off the things Jesus said which are definitely against the political interests of the corporations and special interest that run the Republican party.

    clearer

     
  • John Lucas posted at 4:52 pm on Thu, Dec 27, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2726

    There is a minority of people who believe as Jerome and others on this page do. What you have to understand is that this cause is part of the Republican party which is owned and operated by the big corporations in our country. The people that run the party really do not care about abortion but they need people to vote for their candidates as to advance the needs and wishes of the corporations over the working people in this country. This really serves two purposes. The first I already stated. The second is that many of these people are sincere in their beliefs. By keeping them focused on abortion it takes their minds off the things Jesus said which are definitely against their political interests.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 4:42 pm on Thu, Dec 27, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2726

    Darrell, one of your problems is that you think everyone thinks and acts like you do. I vehemently disagree with Jerome on many issues but I respect him for he is consistent. I understand where he comes from. So just because this is something you do all the time does not mean that I am doing the same thing. I sincerely wish Jerome a Happy New Year. I wish you one too. I really appreciate your efforts. I doubt that there is a poster on these forums that does more for the Liberal cause than you do. I really honestly mean that.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 3:30 pm on Thu, Dec 27, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9403

    Excellent post Mr Kinderman. I too think an unborn baby should have rights to life. It just makes sense to me. That some are indifferent and do not care if unborn babies are killed seems cold hearted to me.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 3:27 pm on Thu, Dec 27, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9403

    Mr Chang and Lucas mocks and ridicules with enthusiasm then wishes an insincere happy new year...

    At least Chang is consistent

     
  • Jien Kaur posted at 12:46 pm on Thu, Dec 27, 2012.

    Jien Kaur Posts: 39

    As I learn more and more amount American culture, especially from these pages, I am certainly shocked that there still exists in America, which is such a progressive society, a group of men who still want to subjugate women and deny them control of their own bodies and their reproductive freedom.

    I find comments such as "holocaust in the womb," "we're going to have way too many women who will argue that the slaughter of these unborn babies is simply them exercising their rights over their own bodies," and "this so-called "woman's right to choose," very similar to men's attitudes in countries I have lived in or visited where female genital mutilation is practiced in order to control women's desires and reproduction.

    There is a failing in a society that desires to give more rights to the unborn than to the already born. If America was a place were all already born people had food, shelter, medical care, education etc., then a serious discussion about abortion could ensue. Until then, not bringing more unwanted beings into this country should be a legal option.

     
  • Walter Chang posted at 10:01 am on Thu, Dec 27, 2012.

    Walt Posts: 1066

    "We have our faith to lean on Mr. Lucas - I have no idea what you rely upon; that's up to you"

    He's got Jesus.

    I'm having trouble recognizing the God which shares your expressed opinions??

     
  • John Lucas posted at 9:50 am on Thu, Dec 27, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2726

    [beam] back at you, Walter. Happy New Year to you too, Jerome

     
  • Walter Chang posted at 9:42 am on Thu, Dec 27, 2012.

    Walt Posts: 1066

    "incredible immorality marked by corruption at all levels of church, state and business, stained by Godlessness, sexual perversion and fornication, unthankful, unmerciful, hedonistic corrupt and reprobate minds — murderers without natural affection."

    Oh brother!!

    Sounds more like the nightly TV lineup!

    I don't where these guys spend their time...

    Or where they shop, bank, dine, pay their government taxes and fees, get a haircut, worship, work, volunteer or do a bunch of other things...

    But I'm catching a clue!!

    [wink]

     
  • Walter Chang posted at 9:41 am on Thu, Dec 27, 2012.

    Walt Posts: 1066

    Happy New Years boys.

    You too Jerry!

    [beam]

     
  • Jerome Kinderman posted at 9:18 am on Thu, Dec 27, 2012.

    Jerome R Kinderman Posts: 2315

    Why do we scare you, Mr. Barrow? Simply because we have differing opinions on the whys and wherefores of life here on Earth? You should know that you don't bother me at all. Even those who would want to destroy our country cause me no fear. Yes, I DO fear for my children and their children that in the not-too-distant future our nation will be far removed from what the Founders envisioned. But nations in decline must go through these types of upheavals before they are righted again. Nevertheless, I don't want to be a part of your happy campground.

    We have our faith to lean on Mr. Lucas - I have no idea what you rely upon; that's up to you. Mr. Fields and I (along with many others by the way) believe that human life is precious and that it begins at conception within the mother's womb. To destroy it is not only an abomination to God, but it should be an affront to any decent human being who places even a modicum of value on humanity. With that one decision in 1973 we've been hurtled into the outer regions of human indecency.

    Mr. Fields and I also understand that Roe v. Wade is the "law of the land." But in spite of that, we still have our voices and our votes. With both of these we hope that some day soon others will return to what is right in this regard. So again, what scares you so much about us? Have we threatened you in any way?

     
  • John Lucas posted at 8:23 am on Thu, Dec 27, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2726

    [smile][thumbup]

     
  • John Lucas posted at 8:06 am on Thu, Dec 27, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2726

    The relationship between Roe vs Wade and the violence in this country is nonsense. All one has to do is look at the other developed countries and see that this is not the case. Abortion has been legal in most of the other developed countries for decades. They all are far less violent societies the we are. Britain had 14 firearm murders last year.

    Why are these countries by a wide margin less violent than we are? I think it is because as nations they follow the main teachings of Jesus. They have strong safety nets that protect people when they lose their jobs. Even if you lose your job you can still see a doctor and get treatment. They have extended unemployment benefits as a matter of course. They just do not throw their people onto the street

    In our country in these bad times you are a sickness or an accident from going to the street. You are a sickness away from bankruptcy. You can lose your job and if you cannot find one you can join the homeless. This does not even have to happen. It is the fear of this happening that permeates our culture. It is the internal knowing that even if you give it your best if you are unlucky it is just too bad. What makes it worse is our Conservative friends constant braying that if it happens to you that you are a bad person. It is this fear and alienation that permeates our society that is making people mentally ill and more violent.

    I had an eye opening experience this Christmas. I have a friend whose wife had a job and became disabled. The benefits had run out. I knew they were struggling so I laid a grand on him and told him to pay it forward when he got on his feet. He burst into tears. This is a very hard working father who works with his hands for a living and is not the most emotional person in the world. I did not know how dire their situation was. I think this situation is more prevalent than we think. Thoreau said, "Men lead live of quiet desperation". It does not have to be this way.

    It is amazing to me that the reality is that other developed countries in their governance more follow the actual teachings of Jesus and they are far less violent. It is not an accident

     
  • Eric Barrow posted at 7:57 am on Thu, Dec 27, 2012.

    Eric Barrow Posts: 1442

    Jerome you and the man with four names scare the crap out of me as long as society is headed in a direction you both are uncomfortable with I am a happy camper.

     
  • Jerome Kinderman posted at 1:13 am on Thu, Dec 27, 2012.

    Jerome R Kinderman Posts: 2315

    I'm sorry Mr. Fields, but our society is on the fast track toward acceptance of all those things you deem to be hurting us: "incredible immorality marked by corruption at all levels of church, state and business, stained by Godlessness, sexual perversion and fornication, unthankful, unmerciful, hedonistic corrupt and reprobate minds — murderers without natural affection." While most of us are against murder and corruption, there's too much of a difference of opinion regarding "Godlessness, sexual perversion and fornication, unthankful, unmerciful, hedonistic corrupt and reprobate minds." Most would have us believe that these things are evidence of a more enlightened and "tolerant" society. I vehemently disagree.

    So when it comes to abortion and the reversal of Roe v. Wade, we're going to have way too many women who will argue that the slaughter of these unborn babies is simply them exercising their rights over their own bodies. Of course you and I know that there's a second little body that isn't being considered. As I've stated too many times on this very forum, the only thing that separates these defenseless children is a short distance of human tissue and one breath of fresh air.

    Until society reverses itself regarding right vs. wrong and Roe v. Wade v. this so-called "woman's right to choose" we're only going to sink further into the morass of immorality. But isn't this what we're supposed to expect as we await the return of Christ, Mr. Fields?

     

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