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Liberalism builds a strong economy

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Posted: Tuesday, September 11, 2012 12:00 am | Updated: 6:08 am, Tue Sep 11, 2012.

Liberalism is not an ideology. Conservatism, communism and fascism are all ideologies, for they all start out with a set of ideas and go search for facts to back them up. Liberalism does the opposite. It starts with the facts and then comes up with a plan to deal with a problem. It believes in science and experiments. I looks to history to see what works. It was the reaction to 1,000 years of the Dark Ages, when conservatism and excess religiosity ruled the world.

Four years ago, we were losing 800,000 jobs a month, the financial system nearly collapsed and the auto industry was bankrupt. These were brought on by 8 years of conservative policies. Now the Republicans want to implement the same policies, only this time on steroids. Insanity is doing the same thing over again and expecting different results.

All countries that have a strong middle class came about with a progressive income tax, strong labor laws, strong financial regulations and Keynesian economics, and not one with conservative ideas.

It has taken 30 years of Reaganomics to hollow out the middle class and nearly destroy our financial system. It is only a testament to the above liberal ideas that built up such a strong economy that we have not gone under.

If Romney wins and implements his conservative ideas, it will only be a matter of time before the economy will blow up completely. The question is not if liberalism will win, but when. How much suffering has to happen first?

John Lucas

Lodi

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Welcome to the discussion.

122 comments:

  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 8:37 pm on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    True... Mr Lucas just can'tbe fixed... good self analysis on the part of Mr. Lucas.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 8:34 pm on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Of course Mr Lucas is tired of hearing the truth... he is embarrassed his position looks so foolish.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 8:30 pm on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Stan, wonderful post. You make the complex simple. Unfortunately, it went right over the head of Mr Lucas

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 8:26 pm on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Mr Lucas stated...One cannot refute the logic of my position ...

    Exactly, one cannot refute what does not exist... please present something that has logic so the pros and cons and be debated.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 7:41 pm on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Im truly sorry you think it matters what you perceive.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 7:37 pm on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Thanks Darrell, John is not only smart, he is a good person as well...

    Humm, I think there are some ladies in Thailand and some sprinkled around California that might have a different opinion.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 12:23 pm on Sun, Sep 16, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    I truly am sorry that you are scared of trains. It is sad that when the Lord said line up for brains you thought he said trains and refused to get in line.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 5:54 pm on Sat, Sep 15, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    I agree Stan, its why I said he was intelligent. Unfortunately, sometimes intelligence does not not translate into common sense reality.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 5:51 pm on Sat, Sep 15, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Mr Lucas stated... it is not an accident that they are present in all countries with large middle classes it is pointless to go further...

    You just don't get it... Stan does....

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 5:48 pm on Sat, Sep 15, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Mr lucas, it is you over a year ago who stated you took a couple of courses in college but did not complete a 4 year college education. I was simply repeating what you posted.

    If I misunderstood, I apologize for the error. What college did you earn your degree from? What was your major?
    I graduated from Kansas University and attended from 1972- 78.Earned a BA in Music Therapy with a 3.0. Your grade point average was higher than mine. I worked 30+ hours a week while attending school so couldn't focus on grades as I which I could have. Raising a daughter as a single dad and working was more than I could handle and was happy just to graduate.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 3:43 pm on Sat, Sep 15, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    I am sorry that I was over the top with you. I apologize. the fact remains is that you were not engaging in argument but giving lectures. It is important to understand why those things are just as critical to a large middle class as some of the things you were talking about. These things are not simple and an economy is like a garden. It takes many factors to make it flourish. The are many sound reasons why each one of these ideas are important. My experience tells me until the person I am having this argument with understands that it is not an accident that they are present in all countries with large middle classes it is pointless to go further. Once they see that they are always present then the whys can be explored.

     
  • stan taves posted at 3:01 pm on Sat, Sep 15, 2012.

    Stan Taves Posts: 313

    Thanks Darrell, John is not only smart, he is a good person as well. I hoped that he would see things my way -- but that's the mistake I always make around here. God Bless

     
  • John Lucas posted at 2:20 pm on Sat, Sep 15, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    More inappropriate mocking" babble!
    I tell you what I will do for you. I did go to college. Want to bet who had the higher GPA? I had 3.8 GPA.
    You are a clear example of the small minded. I asked you a question which you could not answer. What did you do? More inappropriate mocking" babble!

    If you had any intellectual honesty you would answer the question:
    SHOW ME A COUNTRY THAT HAS A LARGE MIDDLE CLASS THAT DID NOT USE THE 4 IDEAS I LISTED.

    There are three possible answers
    !. Name one
    2. Admit you do not know of one
    3. Cravenly, dishonestly and cowardly flee to the inappropriate mocking" babble that you are doing now

    You are nothing but a coward Darrell

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 1:56 pm on Sat, Sep 15, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Stan, it did not take you long to conclude Mr Lucas has a severely flawed argument. It is amazing that someone can be so unaware of economic factors that he actual thinks his 4 points have meaning in comparing one country to another.

    You made more sense in your one post than he has in the past year...yet, he cannot see it.... sad.

    If he had only gone to college and graduated in stead of taking a course or two he would have a better understanding how complex this subject matter is and have a well rounded view of the world.... he is looking uneducated yet yet appears to have a high IQ...what a waste.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 1:45 pm on Sat, Sep 15, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Actually, you last post indicates you did not read my post or comprehend the obvious... please read and think just a bit... 2 seconds will be long enough as it is very simple.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 11:38 am on Sat, Sep 15, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    You said:

    Your argument is flawed in that is assumes a vibrant middle-class would not exist were it not for the 4 points you continually make.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    That is exactly my point. The way you disprove it is not with high sounding rhetoric. You prove it by showing a country with a large middle class that did not use those four policies. You can not do it in spite of the fact there are many countries that have a large middle classes. I know that you are a conservative and logic or critical thinking is foreign to you. May I recommend some books for you on critical thinking?

     
  • John Lucas posted at 11:30 am on Sat, Sep 15, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    More mimbo jumbo. You keep coming up with high sounding rhetoric in answer to a simple question. Name a country that did not instate the four policies I listed and has a middle class. You are talking in generalities while I am being very specific. You do not answer the question because you know where it leads. You do not have the courage of your convictions or believe in your ideas enough to engage in a debate and answer a simple question. You are like Mitt Romney in your stunning lack of integrity.

     
  • stan taves posted at 11:10 am on Sat, Sep 15, 2012.

    Stan Taves Posts: 313

    Your argument is flawed in that is assumes a vibrant middle-class would not exist were it not for the 4 points you continually make. My claim is that economic growth is what sustains a growing middle-class; and that that growth owes itself to an entrepreneurial spirit that can only thrive in a free marketplace. In other words the more impediments to growth that your "progressives" put before us, the more the middle-class suffers. I don't expect you to see the light anytime soon, John -- good luck with that.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 10:48 am on Sat, Sep 15, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    I love this. I have asked this question of all our resident Republican Conservatives on this site:


    1. They instituted a highly progressive tax system.

    2. They regulated the financial industry

    3. They instituted labor laws trying to level the playing field between labor and management

    4. They instituted Keynesian Economics

    SHOW ME A COUNTRY THAT HAS A LARGE MIDDLE CLASS THAT DID NOT USE THE 4 IDEAS LISTED ABOVE .The silence is deafening. The reason is simple. THEY ALL DID!

    Darrell Baumbach, answers with the following mumbo jumbo:

    There are so many variables that affect each country's economy and it's abilities to sustain a middle class the size of the American one, that there is no comparison possible.

    THESE ARE FOUR VARIABLES THAT EXISWT IN ALL COUNTRIES WITH A LARGE MIDDLE CLASS. He refuses to admit the obvious. He dances, bobs and weaves all around the issue. If he did admit the obvious which is what I am saying is true he would have to explain why this is so and why Conservatives are so aggressive in fighting against these policies.

    One cannot refute the logic of my position and you will never see a Republican answer my question. Intuitively they know where it leads. It leads to the destruction of the myths of their ideology.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 9:41 am on Sat, Sep 15, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    really Mr Lucas... please identify the country whose constitution, laws, regulations and mandates are exactly like Untied States. Show me a country whose history, experience and values duplicate America's. Show me a country that has is mutlicultural and must deal with the melting pot exactly like ours. There are hundreds of variable I have not mentioned.

    Many variables influence the motivation to succeed. Your argument has absolutely no merit or reality to it. Your thinking process is at the level of a third year college student who has studied books and theories but has no world experince or wisdom to be guided by. Please consider that you know less than you perceive. I suggest you run a business to give yourself an opportunity to comprehend the obvious.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 11:01 pm on Fri, Sep 14, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Simply not true if you look at all countries that have a large middle class they have 4 things they all did to build a middle class. I repeat;


    1. They instituted a highly progressive tax system.

    2. They regulated the financial industry

    3. They instituted labor laws trying to level the playing field between labor and management

    4. They instituted Keynesian Economics

    Yes they also have a market economy and have much individual liberty but you cannot find a county with a large middle class that did not use those 4 policies. Period. Show me one that did not. You cannot because they do not exist. If this statement you made was true:

    There are so many variables that affect each country's economy and it's abilities to sustain a middle class the size of the American one, that there is no comparison possible.

    Then you could find one but you cannot. This is called logic Darrell and to any rational mind it is inescapable that what I am saying is true.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 10:29 pm on Fri, Sep 14, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    How many countries have a middle class like the American Middle class??? None.

    . How many other countries have a middle class that was built on American principles and have the same laws, regulations and mandates as well as an American constitution? none.

    answer... Mr. Lucas is absurd. There are so many variables that affect each country's economy and it's abilities to sustain a middle class the size of the American one, that there is no comparison possible.

    Except in "Lucas World"... no one could possible make that comparison

     
  • John Lucas posted at 5:06 pm on Fri, Sep 14, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Try to be specific. Show me a country that you think has a large middle class that was brought about by Conservative ideas.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 4:58 pm on Fri, Sep 14, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    I will repeat the questions in spit eof the fact you will not answer them. That would take integrity.
    SHOW ME A COUNTRY THAT HAS A LARGE MIDDLE CLASS THAT WAS BUILT UPON "CONSERVATIVE IDEAS." The silence is deafening. The reason is simple. THERE ARE NONE!
    SHOW ME A COUNTRY THAT HAS A LARGE MIDDLE CLASS THAT DID NOT USE THE 4 IDEAS LISTED.The silence is deafening. The reason is simple. THEY ALL DID!

     
  • stan taves posted at 3:53 pm on Fri, Sep 14, 2012.

    Stan Taves Posts: 313

    Clearly this not going very well; Let's try this from a different angle. This country was built upon the concept of individual freedom, free-markets, and the right to accumulate ones own wealth. These concepts are at the heart of modern conservatism (libertarianism) and what, more than anything else, has led to the prosperity of western civilization. In other words, the middle-class that exists today, here, and around the world, is the direct result of the that which our libertarian founders bestowed upon us. A freedom, by the way, that ultimately comes from God -- not from your beloved "progressives", John.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 3:10 pm on Fri, Sep 14, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    I will repeat the questions in spit eof the fact you will not answer them. That would take integrity.

    SHOW ME A COUNTRY THAT HAS A LARGE MIDDLE CLASS THAT WAS BUILT UPON "CONSERVATIVE IDEAS." The silence is deafening. The reason is simple. THERE ARE NONE!
    SHOW ME A COUNTRY THAT HAS A LARGE MIDDLE CLASS THAT DID NOT USE THE 4 IDEAS LISTED.The silence is deafening. The reason is simple. THEY ALL DID!

     
  • stan taves posted at 3:04 pm on Fri, Sep 14, 2012.

    Stan Taves Posts: 313

    Answers you want; answers you'll get. While it is true that our breaking from Mother England was considered radical by many conservatives of the day; there is little doubt that the foundation laid out in the constitution favored individual achievement over those who would seek to redistribute in the name of "fairness". In other words, the idea that individuals could accumulate wealth through their own volition is purely libertarian; while "redistribution" is the cornerstone of modern liberalism. You might be claiming that the middle class grew more rapidly because of "progressive" policies, and I would agree; but at what cost? It's this simple , John: the wreckage that we see before us ( $16 trillion in debt) is the direct result of progressive policy. I don't know; maybe you and your leftist buddies don't feel threatened by the debt burden that hangs over us. Fine, but that would be a mistake on your part.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 1:51 pm on Fri, Sep 14, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    I am a little tired of this statement:

    ohn, is that you are confusing republicans with genuine conservatives who tend to be libertarian.

    This is just a way for you to not accept responsibility for those you voted for.

    By the way, I see you did not come up with any answers to my questions. I wonder why?

     
  • stan taves posted at 1:19 pm on Fri, Sep 14, 2012.

    Stan Taves Posts: 313

    John, you need to review the facts before you go off half-cocked. The fact is that the recession began during the Clinton administration -- remember the dot-com bubble? The "meltdown" in '08 was result of loose credit coupled with a Clinton policy that demanded banks give sub-prime loans to uncreditworthy home buyers. As for the auto industry; we bailed out GM, and it is unlikely that they will ever pay us back. 41/2 million jobs? I guess that would be OK except for the fact that the workforce has shrunk by tens of millions -- that would be bad, John. Credit has eased and the market is up. Hey that's great, but why isn't the middle-class feeling the wealth? I think you know why; don't you , John? The biggest problem with your argument, John, is that you are confusing republicans with genuine conservatives who tend to be libertarian. Do we want another republican who acts like a lib? Of course not, but your guy Obama is worst President that this nation has ever had to endure.Don't believe me? You will.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 12:53 pm on Fri, Sep 14, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    No, I read your letter which was empty of any coherent thought especially this one:

    The fact is that "progressives" have done everything in their power to destroy the middle-class.

    The history of the middle class shows otherwise

    The largest middle class in the history of the world was created by the following four ideas turned into policies starting with FDR

    1. We instituted a highly progressive tax system.

    2. We regulated the financial industry

    3. We instituted labor laws trying to level the playing field between labor and management

    4. We instituted Keynesian Economics

    These policies were part of the American political fabric until Reaganomics or as Bush the elder called Voodoo economics came into being

    If you look at all countries with large middle classes followed the same path. THERE ARE NO COUNTRIES WITH LARGE MIDDLE CLASSES WHICH WERE CREATED OR SUSTAINED BY "CONSERVATIVE IDEAS".

    I have asked every Conservative nutjobs on this blog including Robert Chapman, Darrell Baumbach, Joe Baxter the following questions.

    SHOW ME A COUNTRY THAT HAS A LARGE MIDDLE CLASS THAT WAS BUILT UPON "CONSERVATIVE IDEAS." The silence is deafening. The reason is simple. THERE ARE NONE!
    SHOW ME A COUNTRY THAT HAS A LARGE MIDDLE CLASS THAT DID NOT USE THE 4 IDEAS LISTED.The silence is deafening. The reason is simple. THEY ALL DID!

    Since 1980 and the advent of REAGANOMICS we have seen the hollowing out of the middle class and if we continue with these simpleminded Conservative ideas it will explode upon itself and will be no more.

    You like the other wingnuts on this blog including the "uncommon man" in the above post will not answer the questions I asked or comment on them. The reason is simple. The one thing you all have in common is a stunning lack of integrity. To look at the real history you would have to look at the ideas you have been conned into believing. You would rather see us destroy the middle class in this country than admit what the real economic history of the last 75 years teaches us in no uncertain terms

     
  • John Lucas posted at 12:22 pm on Fri, Sep 14, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    We have had a change in direction. In 2000 we went from a thriving economy paying down the national debt to 2008 when we had a financial meltdown, were losing 800,000 jobs a month, the auto industry on its knees, the severest credit crunch in 80 years and on the brink of another Great Depression. Now the auto industry is doing well, we have gained 4,500,000 jobs in the last 30 months, credit is eased, the stock market is up. I know you want to go in the direction that the Conservatives had us going in 2008 but anyone with a rational mind would disagree with you. Frankly we can do without the ideas of "uncommon men" such as yourself.

     
  • Kerry Suess posted at 10:56 am on Fri, Sep 14, 2012.

    The Knight Romer Posts: 12

    John, I must admit I read your letter and thought you were being sarcastic. Now after reading all of the comments including your responses I just want to say that I'm sorry. Sorry that you and other liberals are so blind to reality. I won't take you up on your bet because I have very little faith remaining in the common man to make an informed decision. Wow. Really shocking how so many people can look at the same things and have such a totally different perspective. Have a nice day. We are all screwed if we continue with our current direction.

     
  • stan taves posted at 10:11 am on Fri, Sep 14, 2012.

    Stan Taves Posts: 313

    What are trying to say, John? that you just re-read your letter?

     
  • John Lucas posted at 9:26 am on Fri, Sep 14, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    You just cannot fix stupid.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 9:25 am on Fri, Sep 14, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Empty words from an empty mind

     
  • stan taves posted at 8:47 am on Fri, Sep 14, 2012.

    Stan Taves Posts: 313

    It is very easy to intellectualize a leftist ideology; the hard work comes from producing and competing in the marketplace. The fact is that "progressives" have done everything in their power to destroy the middle-class. The truly amazing thing is that a middle-class even exists today, given the onslaught of redistributive policies perpetrated by the left. But here's the dirty little secret: Redistribution has given the world billions of poor people who would like nothing more than to annihilate all of western civilization -- how's that for "progress"?

     
  • dave howard posted at 10:23 pm on Thu, Sep 13, 2012.

    dave howard Posts: 25

    liberalism is 100% communism always has been and always will be.

     
  • Andrew Liebich posted at 11:05 pm on Wed, Sep 12, 2012.

    Andrew Liebich Posts: 2999

    Has the Fed's announcement of QE3 failed to reach planet Pop Tart Ms. Bobin? [sleeping]

     
  • Andrew Liebich posted at 10:55 pm on Wed, Sep 12, 2012.

    Andrew Liebich Posts: 2999

    I often find your ignorance nauseating Ms. Bobin. This is one of those times.

    As of June 2012, more than 56 cities and counties in CA have demanded a moratorium on SmartMeters. Thirteen have even criminalized SmartMeters!

    Seriously, you really should educate and inform yourself.

    http://stopsmartmeters.org/why-stop-smart-meters/

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 5:11 pm on Wed, Sep 12, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Mr Lucas stated...I have to admit I like a well turned phrase especially when it hits home with the truth.

    Yes I suppose it is good to laugh and not take things so serious even of the definition of truth is a perception instead of reality.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 4:23 pm on Wed, Sep 12, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    I have to admit I like a well turned phrase especially when it hits home with the truth.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 2:19 pm on Wed, Sep 12, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    How predictable... the left wing mocker in chief is appreciated by a left wing zealot... how funny.

     
  • Joanne Bobin posted at 1:19 pm on Wed, Sep 12, 2012.

    Joanne Bobin Posts: 4488

    People to subscribe to American Thinker online don't have to "think." They just believe whatever they read.

    From Wikipedia: "Writing in The New York Times, Felicity Barringer credited American Thinker with initiating a public outcry over a California plan to require programmable thermostats which could be controlled by officials in the event of power supply difficulties."

    Must be one of Andrew's favorite sites.

     
  • Joanne Bobin posted at 1:14 pm on Wed, Sep 12, 2012.

    Joanne Bobin Posts: 4488

    The European Union is just realizing that all of the austerity measures that many of its members put in place have failed and their economies are no better today than they were before - they are worse, in fact.

     
  • Jeff Tillett posted at 12:12 pm on Wed, Sep 12, 2012.

    Jeff Tillett Posts: 548

    D's & R's have different levels of responsibility for each of the above.
    from a-c) decreasing D responsibility & increasing R responsibility.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 11:46 am on Wed, Sep 12, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    You are great Walter [smile]

     
  • John Lucas posted at 11:26 am on Wed, Sep 12, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    I can and I do as would any rational person.

     
  • Walter Chang posted at 11:23 am on Wed, Sep 12, 2012.

    Walt Posts: 1117

    “www.americanthinker.com”

    The tedium of the left as described by the hypocrites from the right!!

    [scared]

     
  • John Lucas posted at 11:10 am on Wed, Sep 12, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    this is an excerpt from the above URL

    Conservatives derive theories from results, and not the other way around. This means that conservatives are at the forefront of real experiments while leftists squat down around a midnight campfire with medicine bones. We are guided by what works. Once, conservatives supported higher taxes to fight deficits because we thought skyrocketing federal debt created a burden which would eventually crush us and that higher taxes brought higher revenue. Arthur Laffer thirty years ago proposed his curve, which showed the maximum tax rate for optimizing tax revenues. Reagan tested his theory. It worked; we adopted it as proven.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Yep Reagan used the Laffer curve to almost triple the national debt

    Yep, Conservatives are at the forefront of real experiments and are guided by what works. That is why when the grand experiment of 8 years of Conservative policies led to the Great Depression it took a couple of generations before they could sell their snake oil to the public again. This led to the great Recession of 2008. It really worked out great.

    You are either on drugs or live in an alternate universe. History teaches us very clearly and without a doubt that Conservative policies invariably lead to Financial Meltdowns.

     
  • John Kindseth posted at 10:22 am on Wed, Sep 12, 2012.

    John Kindseth Posts: 243

    Better summary than I could prepare:

    http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/09/the_tedium_of_leftism.html

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 9:18 am on Wed, Sep 12, 2012.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2830

    John,

    Now you get it. These are now considered conservative policies. Many of them are in stark contrast to today's liberal policies. FDR was a Democrat and considered a liberal.
    You can't deny the role reversal of C's and L's.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 8:46 am on Wed, Sep 12, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    You could look at this way if you took a triple dose of LSD and lived in an alternate universe

     
  • John Lucas posted at 8:44 am on Wed, Sep 12, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Here are ten programs that the Conservative Roosevelt created in the 1930's. There are more if you want me to give them to you.

    1. CCC - Civilian Conservation Corps

    2. CWA - Civil Works Administration

    3. FHA - Federal Housing Administration

    4. FSA - Federal Security Agency

    5. HOLC - Home Owner's Loan Corporation

    6. NRA - National Recovery Act

    7. PWA - Public Works Administration

    8. SSA - Social Security Act

    9. TVA - Tennessee Valley Authority

    10. WPA - Works Progress Administration

    Yep, these are the things that Republicans today support. Give me a break.

     
  • Andrew Liebich posted at 8:43 am on Wed, Sep 12, 2012.

    Andrew Liebich Posts: 2999

    The vast majority of Americans are trapped inside the left/right paradigm. The lamestream media tells them that they have to pick one of two “teams” – either the Republicans or the Democrats.

    If you are a Democrat, then the Republicans are the bad guys and you have to hate them no matter what. If you are a Republican, then the Democrats are the bad guys and you have to hate them no matter what.

    But the American people are taught that the leaders of their own “teams” should be treated like rock stars and celebrities. So millions upon millions of Americans love and worship Obama just like millions upon millions of Americans loved and worshipped Bush.

    It doesn’t matter to most Americans that the same very powerful interests control both the Republican and the Democratic establishments. They are going to cheer for their “team” no matter how incompetent the leaders turn out to be.

    We have borrowed 16 trillion dollars that we expect future generations to repay. We have consigned our children and our grandchildren to a lifetime of debt slavery and most of you are so helplessly stuck in the false left/right paradigm you haven't even realized it yet.

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 8:05 am on Wed, Sep 12, 2012.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2830

    John,

    What part of ' Liberal policies of the 1930's' are almost exactly like conservative policies of today don't you understand? You can stomp your feet and throw a temper tamtrum all you want. The facts are clear.

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 7:59 am on Wed, Sep 12, 2012.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2830

    Clinton's Speech Was Meant to Undermine Obama!!

    9/10/12

    Democrats are praising Bill Clinton's speech as if it was the best thing for Obama. It was NOT.

    He talked about the need to work with Republicans. Bill Clinton worked with Republicans. Obama did not. Americans will make that distinction.

    He talked about how there were more jobs created by Democratic presidents since the 1960s than Republican presidents. Umm. Jimmy Carter was a failure and so is Obama. He can't praise Obama for the past three years so he includes himself in a 50 year time window, LOL. That is silly on its face.

    Paul Ryan:

    “What’s happened over the past four years was not a Bill Clinton Democrat.”

    “Bill Clinton gave us welfare reform, Bill Clinton worked with Republicans to cut spending and to get a good budget agreement in place. Bill Clinton’s commission gave us Medicare reform that we are proposing right now. We don’t have a Bill Clinton Democrat. We have someone who went far to the left so it’s a different kind of approach or philosophy of the role and goal of government.”

    Read more at http://www.reagancoalition.com/articles/2012/20120910003-clinton-convention.html#zByErRj3douhA550.99

     
  • John Lucas posted at 7:45 am on Wed, Sep 12, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    The real difference between Conservative and Liberal policies are stark and clear when viewed from a historical perspective. Conservative policies led to the economic debacles of 1929 and 2008. The debacle of 1929 was so bad that conservative polices were put on the shelf until 1980 with the election of Ronald Reagan. The accession of Liberal polices in the 1030's led to the creation of largest middle class ever created and the greatest prosperity the world has ever seen. We are now living with the return of Conservative policies began by the election of Ronald Reagan. It is not very pretty.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 7:32 am on Wed, Sep 12, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Very well put. Opportunity is what counts.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 7:29 am on Wed, Sep 12, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Why not try something new, Darrell? Address the substance of what I am saying.

     
  • Kevin Paglia posted at 7:15 am on Wed, Sep 12, 2012.

    Kevin Paglia Posts: 2024

    Ok. So I hammered when a Liberal demonstrated lopsided philosophy passion. For fairness I have to do the same here.

    Roy, the counter is that the Conservative will gladly leave those in need out to suffer in the cold if they don't make enough. This is why so many non-conservatives see us conservatives as money driven, profit hoarding, callous dollar chasers.

    The Liberal philosophy is NOT that the government should take care of you if you fail. It (in my opinion) says everyone deserves a chance to succeed. And wants to give that CHANCE to succeed to as many people as possible. And I agree with this aspect of the liberal philosophy, every single person in this great country should have the chance to succeed. Many conservatives appear (for right or wrong) to not CARE if others have a chance to succeed as long as the conservatives get what they want first.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 6:37 am on Wed, Sep 12, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Exactly... STRS is far better than SS and is not fair... teachers like what is fair so it would seem they should fight against STRS and promote SS

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 6:33 am on Wed, Sep 12, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Mr Lucas stated...You are showing your ignorance here

    Maybe it was Mr Lucas who inspired the book "1984" where up was down and down was up... imagine the minister of truth (Lucas)... that is a scary thought.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 5:47 am on Wed, Sep 12, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    You are showing your ignorance here. The Conservative ideas of Coolidge, Harding, Hoover and their Secretary of the Treasury Andrew Mellon were rejected for a couple of generations because of the Great Depression. In the absence of their ideas Liberal ideas built the largest middle class in the history of the world. Ronald Reagan brought their insane ideas back and hallowing out of the middle class has been happening every since.

     
  • Patrick W Maple posted at 4:51 am on Wed, Sep 12, 2012.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1805

    What is good for the goose is good for the gander? Liberals think everyone should be equal...then why can the teachers unions opt out of SS for PERS and we cannot do the same as individuals?

     
  • roy bitz posted at 10:12 pm on Tue, Sep 11, 2012.

    roy bitz Posts: 501

    I believe, the biggest difference between Liberalism and conservatism is:
    Conservatives believe individuals, as well as cities, counties, states and even the federal government must live within their own means. There is no "no free lunch"!
    Liberals seem to believe this is an unfair concept--that in fairness everyone should "get a fair shot" and if they miss---well the government will take care of your needs.

     
  • Walter Chang posted at 7:30 pm on Tue, Sep 11, 2012.

    Walt Posts: 1117

    "Constant, useless, divisive fighting"

    [huh]

     
  • Kevin Paglia posted at 7:12 pm on Tue, Sep 11, 2012.

    Kevin Paglia Posts: 2024

    Thank you John for clearly demonstrating exactly what I was talking about. You are so blinded by your hatred of republican policies that you are blind to your own philosophies. How many times over the past couple years have we heard how "evil" rich people are for making TOO MUCH MONEY. A sediment you probably share. The Liberal policy to punish people who work HARD for their money causes just as many problems as the republican efforts to protect the top 1%. Business owners are punished for being successful under liberal philosophies for nothing else other than making more than 250K.

    Liberal policies, as has already been pointed out, forced banks to make bad loan decisions and then you liberals blame the republicans when it can back to bite us all. The Liberal concept to redistribute hard earned/risked money tells people NOT to be too successful cause then we will take away your money, unless you hide it overseas.

    There are many policies of the liberal philosophy I like including business accountability to community and worker, but when it comes to the financial welfare of this country parts of that philosophy drives us right over a cliff.

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 6:59 pm on Tue, Sep 11, 2012.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2830


    Mr. Lucas wrote:

    When we had the the crash of 1929 the Conservative Republican policies resulted in the unemployment rate going from 3.4% in 1928 to close to 25% in 1932. These policies that produced that rate were the vary same policies advocated by the Republicans today.

    -Not even close. There's been a role reversal of Conservatives and Liberals since then. I thought Mr. Lucas was an expert on this issue going way back. More like self-proclaimed to me.

     
  • DAVID MEEK posted at 6:25 pm on Tue, Sep 11, 2012.

    DMEEK Posts: 1

    Hey Jeff, I was reading you comment on the repeal of the the Glass-Steagal act of 1933. You do realize Clinton signed that repeal in 1999? You do realize this allow saving and loans to be in the investment bank business? This is why the questionable loan practices came to be, the deregualtion of the banking industry. Its hard for me to understand how you blame that on Republicans.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 4:23 pm on Tue, Sep 11, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    I have to disagree. the idea that both party policies got us where we are today is false. The core problem we have is income inequality. Since the start of the Reaganomics we have seen the hallowing out of the middle class. If we continue down this path there will be no middle class. This has been the result of Conservative Republican ideas. Liberal ideas built large middle classes the world over wherever it has been tried. There was a time when Republicans were not as insane as they are today. That day is long over and this bunch has to be defeated if we want a country with a strong vibrant middle class.

     
  • Jeff Tillett posted at 3:54 pm on Tue, Sep 11, 2012.

    Jeff Tillett Posts: 548

    What "bad banking practices" are you referring to?
    a) regulation to increase making loans to questionable borrowers,
    b) repealing depression era Glass-Steagall that kept banks that make loans separate from banks that bet on loans and other economic gambling, or
    c) purposely making loans to incapable borrowers (for profit), so the loans could be sold (for more profit), to then be bet against to fail (for even more profit)... to then be bailed out by the gov't for be leveraged so high (to have losses expunged)

    D's & R's have different levels of responsibility for each of the above.
    from a-c) decreasing D responsibility & increasing R responsibility.

     
  • Jeff Tillett posted at 3:46 pm on Tue, Sep 11, 2012.

    Jeff Tillett Posts: 548

    The deregulations *encouraged* bad mortgages to be bundled up and sold then allowed the people selling them to bet that they would fail.

    -fixed.

     
  • Kevin Paglia posted at 3:36 pm on Tue, Sep 11, 2012.

    Kevin Paglia Posts: 2024

    I see the Vorlons and shadows have successfully done their jobs.

    Liberals and Conservatives are SO obsessed with proving each other wrong all they can do is fight between themselves. Constant, useless, divisive fighting.

    When in reality BOTH party policies got us to where we are today. Both cared more about proving THEY were right than doing what was right. And with the exception of a major rise in third party candidates being elected the ONLY way this country will be fixed is for the two waring factions we call Republicans and Democrats to put their differences aside and work together for the betterment of the country.

    Given the constant ill-will, bickering, and face it, HATRED for those with an opposing view, I hold NO hope our politics will cure this country of it's problems.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 3:23 pm on Tue, Sep 11, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    The stand up comedian stated...I am not blinded by the hate of Conservative principles as I am blinded by the stupidity of Conservative policies that precipitated the meltdown


    Thanks for the humor Mr Lucas... thanks for the admission you are blinded...

    no doubt... regardless of the reason why, your judgement has no credibility based on your blindness. Amazing that you cannot see obvious...amazing.

     
  • Jay Samone posted at 2:46 pm on Tue, Sep 11, 2012.

    Jay Samone Posts: 359

    Joanne - when have I EVER commented as if I didn't work for the State - do you REALLY think I don't pay for others' supposed entitlements with my taxes? FYI - My salary isn't an "entitlement" - it's a paycheck for WORKING.

    Are you serious? And I can't tell you how tired I get of hearing people say - you should consider yourself lucky you have a job. It's a bunch of crap. I HAVE a full time job because I make myself employable. I have an education and I continue working on that education so I will remain employable. And what makes you think my situation hasn't been dire itself? What makes you think unemployment hasn't hit my household? You know - I usually remain objective on these boards because I recognize the level of intelligence at work, but this really takes the cake.

    I tell you what. I'll start being compassionate for "those in need" when they truly become "those in need" instead of standing there with their hands out waiting for someone to give them more of what they didn't earn.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 2:23 pm on Tue, Sep 11, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    I am not blinded by the hate of Conservative principles as I am blinded by the stupidity of Conservative policies that precipitated the meltdown. No, Darrell, It is not an accident that the Conservatives were in charge 8 years proceeding the meltdown 2008 and 1929. If you do not want hot water do not light a fire under the kettle.

     
  • Joanne Bobin posted at 2:16 pm on Tue, Sep 11, 2012.

    Joanne Bobin Posts: 4488

    I don't understand why you are upset, Ms. Samone. It seems strange that a government worker would be commenting as if they weren't one, as in complaining about having to pay for others' entitlements. Mr. Lucas's comment is right on.

    You are lucky to still have a full-time job. Others are not as fortunate or have had to get jobs at minimum wage. You should have compassion for those in circumstances more dire than your own.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 2:07 pm on Tue, Sep 11, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    I guess you cannot comprehend. I was talking about the state of California in this situation... since you do not distinguish between state liberal policies and federal ones, it is appropriate and on topic to give examples where your conclusions are absurd... since we are in California and its economy is larger than many countries Believe me, that is not difficult to do.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 2:02 pm on Tue, Sep 11, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Ms Bobin stated... Everyone in this forum is likely paying for salary, benefits and retirement. Mr. Baumbach especially would love to have that PERS retirement plan.

    What I said was that people on Social Security are treated as second class citizens. PERS is superior as it is a defined benefit plan that pays out double what Social Security does for like kind wages.

    My view is that each person should have either PERS or Social Security., but no one should be treated as less worthy and in a different class based on politics.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 1:58 pm on Tue, Sep 11, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    I guess you did not get the memo. California is a state, not a country. Texas is going through much the same thing and they do have the initiative process as a anchor around its neck.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 1:55 pm on Tue, Sep 11, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Barney Frank and Dodd... were democrats who pushed hard to making banks participate in bad banking practices that contributed significantly to the collapse of the housing market. Democrats pushed legislation that made it difficult for private sector jobs to grow... it cannot be more obvious.

    Both sides participated in policies that led to the melt down. The point is Mr Lucas is so blinded by hate of conservative principles that he cannot possibly comprehend that liberals participated in the economic meltdown as did conservatives.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 1:48 pm on Tue, Sep 11, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Let's rephrase... What percentage of current laws on the books in California have been initiated and implemented are written by from Democrats in the last 20 years? Answer= vast majority Democrats.

    How many times have the electoral votes gone towards democrats in the presidential elections in the past 20 years? Answer= 100%

    Evidently, since Mr Lucas insists that liberals are the root for all policies that make an economy work well are the result of liberals... Since California has been dominated by liberal thinking and policies since the dinosaurs, California must be a prime example of a healthy economy that attracts businesses to enter our market...right? Didn't Stockton and 2 other cities file bankruptcy lately?

     
  • John Lucas posted at 1:40 pm on Tue, Sep 11, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Robert so eloquent! Your mastery of the english language leaves this poor truck driver in awe of your obviously magnificent education. Your dismantling of my every argument with such power and nuance leaves the audience filled with wonder of how such a amazing intellect would bother to bestow to us his very presence. There is no doubt you could win any debate in any 3rd grade classroom in the country.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 1:29 pm on Tue, Sep 11, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    I do not know why you are attacking Joanne. She was just giving you the Conservative Republican take on government workers. This is a tough time for all working people whether in the public or private sector. Our Conservative Republican friends like to set one group against another and you have to admit if you listen to their rhetoric government workers are a primary target. To listen to them you are essentially on the take and contribute nothing to society. They are full of it but that is what say and you cannot deny it. Working people have to get over this nonsense and not fall for it. It takes all of to make this economy go.

     
  • Jay Samone posted at 1:14 pm on Tue, Sep 11, 2012.

    Jay Samone Posts: 359

    Pffft Joanne - really? What makes you think I don't pay for my benefits and retirement? I don't work for Stockton. Seriously. You really need to educate yourself.

    If you really want to go there - let's go there. Did you lose your home because you had a 15% paycut in addition to healthcare and retirement contribution increases because the Gov. felt that we needed to "share the pain"? Did you have to cut back on anything and everything to prevent the inevitable loss of said home? What about using all of your savings to cover emergency expenses during said furloughs and increased costs? Hmmm? What about it? Did you?

    Working for the State is no bowl of cherries lady - we are the sacrifical lambs during budget crisis, we are unable to promote because of hiring freezes and any raise is taken away through the furloughs - which we were subjected AGAIN this July for another year. Every year our contributions to both healthcare and our retirements rise. You'd be shocked to see what's taken out of my check every month - and FYI - I MATCH the State's contribution. We constantly work under the threat of layoff and the best part of it is, the State "doesn't participate" in unemployment. Go ahead...keep talking.

     
  • Robert Chapman posted at 1:10 pm on Tue, Sep 11, 2012.

    Bob Chapman Posts: 997

    Ahhh, yes, the melodic whining and misinformation spewing from a LIBERAL. Ya gotta love it.

     
  • Robert Chapman posted at 1:08 pm on Tue, Sep 11, 2012.

    Bob Chapman Posts: 997

    They also BELIEVE talking heads like Chris Matthews, a mental pigmy if ever there was one.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 1:08 pm on Tue, Sep 11, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Amen

     
  • Robert Chapman posted at 1:05 pm on Tue, Sep 11, 2012.

    Bob Chapman Posts: 997

    Search the "governing" politicians for California and see how many have the big "D" after their names. Pretty easy to answer this question.

     
  • Eric Barrow posted at 12:56 pm on Tue, Sep 11, 2012.

    Eric Barrow Posts: 1522

    Talk about accepting involvement Roberts fails to mention Bush's American Dream Downpayment Initiative or the deregulations by the “let the economy take care of itself” conservatives. The deregulations allowed bad mortgages to be bundled up and sold then allowed the people selling them to bet that they would fail. The point is not whether we blame the conservatives it’s that we don’t want them and there failed supply side economics to ever to get their hands on our economy again and amazingly Romney and Ryan want to try it again.

     
  • Joanne Bobin posted at 12:18 pm on Tue, Sep 11, 2012.

    Joanne Bobin Posts: 4488

    "I agree. I'm getting really tired of paying my own bills and everyone else's out there, in addition to programs that I don't benefit from. I work very hard for my check; I wish every one else did too."

    This is pretty rich considering this person has previously revealed that they work for the State of California. Everyone in this forum is likely paying for salary, benefits and retirement. Mr. Baumbach especially would love to have that PERS retirement plan.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 12:05 pm on Tue, Sep 11, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    California is governed? [smile]

    I think the initiative process has made it ungovernable.

     
  • John Kindseth posted at 11:54 am on Tue, Sep 11, 2012.

    John Kindseth Posts: 243

    Is California governed by Liberals or Conservatives ??

     
  • John Lucas posted at 11:51 am on Tue, Sep 11, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    May I suggest to mind your own business where my money is concerned. I will tell you this though that a third of my income goes to people who need help. I also give at least $100 a month to political causes. I put my money where my mouth is.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 11:39 am on Tue, Sep 11, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    I am really lad to hear that it is Carters and Clintons fault for the housing meltdown and here I thought the Republicans had total control of the government from 2000 to 2006 and the Presidency till 2008. My bad. I love this line:

    Liberals need to grow up and accept their involvement in the situation that plagues America today.

    I will do so when you accept the reality that the financial disasters of 1929 and 2008 happened on Conservative Republican watches and after years of their "ideas".

     
  • Jay Samone posted at 11:29 am on Tue, Sep 11, 2012.

    Jay Samone Posts: 359

    I agree. I'm getting really tired of paying my own bills and everyone else's out there, in addition to programs that I don't benefit from. I work very hard for my check; I wish every one else did too.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 11:27 am on Tue, Sep 11, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    When we had the the crash of 1929 the Conservative Republican policies resulted in the unemployment rate going from 3.4% in 1928 to close to 25% in 1932. These policies that produced that rate were the vary same policies advocated by the Republicans today.
    When Obama got elected we were losing 750,000 to 800,000 jobs a month and were in a financial meltdown caused by Republican financial wizardry. It peaked at 10% the summer after Obama was elected and is now down to 8.1%. We have had 30 months of job growth in the private sector creating 4.5 million private sector jobs. The stimulus and the auto bailout has staunched the flow of unemployment and we are in a weak recovery in spite of the Republican party's doing everything in their power to have a repeat of what happened from 1929 to 1932. If by some miracle we win the House, Senate after Obama gets re-elected we can take steps to bring back the economy in a balanced fair manner. History teaches us the worst thing for an economy is having a Republican in charge.

     
  • Robert Chapman posted at 11:23 am on Tue, Sep 11, 2012.

    Bob Chapman Posts: 997

    In 1977, Jimmy Carter (liberal democrat) started the CRA, Community Reinvestment Act, which allowed marginal credit worthy people with no down payment to purchase homes. This act included race as a consideration. Clinton (liberal democrat) tweaked this program and Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac started making subprime loans to buyers with questionable qualifications. In 1995, ACORN, with Barack Obama (liberal democrat) as one of their lawyers, successfully sued CitiBank to make subprime loans to marginally qualified and previous unqualified borrowers for home purchases, often in "undesirable" neighborhoods. It took a while, but this program was the primary causitive factor in the eventual collapse of the bank lending industry that left billions in unpaid and uncollectable loans in both Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac as well as private commercial banks forced to follow the program. Bush, McCain and other Republicans tried to audit this practice and warned that the it could prove to be a financial disaster but they were blocked by a democratic congress. Now that the results have proven to be the worst financial disaster in decades, the liberals want to blame everyone except those initially responsible. Typical liberal "It's Bushs' Fault" for everything that ails America today. Liberals need to grow up and accept their involvement in the situation that plagues America today.

     
  • Jay Samone posted at 10:48 am on Tue, Sep 11, 2012.

    Jay Samone Posts: 359

    John, I pulled the definition straight from the dictionary. I did not take liberties with it, nor did I put my own spin on it, as is what you have done. (sigh). Secondly, no one here is stupid and just because they don't agree with your ideals doesn't make them stupid either. But then again, here I am, lending creedence to my own argument to you that you will never change anyone's mind. (smh)

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 10:44 am on Tue, Sep 11, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Mr Kinderman stated..."Liberalism builds a strong economy?" I've got the last four years that disproves this theory.

    Actually, it goes much further than that. From the 60's to the 90's, liberal politicians dominated legislation that became law. Many government mandates through liberal legislation stays in force even when liberals are not at the helm like during the Reagan and Bush presidencies. These liberal programs and regulations hamper and handcuff conservatives that gains power. It limits what they could have done as the liberal albatross around the conservatives neck fetters creative ideas and solutions.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 10:32 am on Tue, Sep 11, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Mr Lucas stated... You did not say "why" you thought liberalism is a disease. You just stated it as if it were a fact.

    but I stated at 7:16 am on Tue, Sep 11, 2012...Personally, in reality, I do not think liberalism is a disease at all. It simply is an easy way to classify hateful, biased inconsiderate liberals like yourself...

    before, I posted ...Liberalism is thought to be a disease as evidenced by Mr Lucas and his bizarre conclusions... in other words, I was observing what people in general perceive.... not what I perceive.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 10:28 am on Tue, Sep 11, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    may I suggest you put your money to better use and contribute it to liberal social programs so that tax payers can get the needed relief that liberals have inflicted on society.

     
  • Jerome Kinderman posted at 10:00 am on Tue, Sep 11, 2012.

    Jerome R Kinderman Posts: 2354

    "Liberalism builds a strong economy?" I've got the last four years that disproves this theory.

     
  • Andrew Liebich posted at 9:33 am on Tue, Sep 11, 2012.

    Andrew Liebich Posts: 2999

    It's not a conspiracy. It's an ideology. [sleeping]

     
  • John Lucas posted at 9:17 am on Tue, Sep 11, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Must be a conspiracy! [smile]

     
  • John Lucas posted at 9:06 am on Tue, Sep 11, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    I got $10,000 that says Obama wins the election. How about putting your money where your mouth is Brian? If you think I am kidding try me. Lets see if you got any real cojones.

     
  • Andrew Liebich posted at 8:55 am on Tue, Sep 11, 2012.

    Andrew Liebich Posts: 2999

    Libtards believe in Unicorns, Smurfs, and a mystical magical government that gives them 'free' stuff...

    [beam]

     
  • John Lucas posted at 8:54 am on Tue, Sep 11, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    You have a right to define Liberalism in any way you choose. There are many different definitions. We only get 250 words in a letter. For purposes of my letter I gave a short synopsis of what I thought it was. The main points:

    1. It starts with the facts and then comes up with a plan to deal with a problem.
    2. It believes in science and experiments.
    3. It looks to history to see what works.

    You said:
    To state that liberalism (a philosophy) will "save the world" may be true in your mind, but in practicality and by your definition, it is unattainable and unsustainable.

    So tell me. How are we going to solve our problems without the 3 things I stated?

    You said:

    And finally, give it a rest man. You will never change someone's mind no matter how much smoke you blow, and by calling them a dolt doesn't do much to add to your credibility.

    I used to believe that but since Reagan I have watched the accession of non thinking to become a very powerful force in our body politic. This happened because thinking people on both sides of the political spectrum, which had wonderful debates before this, refused to call them out. One may not be able to fix stupid but by God one can call it for what it is. If it happens enough they just might crawl back in the hole they came from or just maybe try critical thinking.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 8:30 am on Tue, Sep 11, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    This is typical Conservative "Logic". Republicans had complete control of the government from 2001-2006.They had the presidency till 2008 yet those who were not in power were responsible for the housing bubble. That dog does not hunt.

    Bad Conservative policies and actions:

    Tax policies that syphon money to the top 1/10 of 1% at a rate not seen since the great depression. Their history of borrowing money in good economic times, increasing the national debt and giving to the umber wealthy in the form of tax cuts is almost criminal but certainly immoral.

    Their support of no regulation of financial industry. These policies nearly destroyed our economy.

    The Republican Party's self admitted obstruction in the Obama presidency to the detriment of the American peoples welfare to gain political points and win this election is morally abhorrent.

    Their ignorance and lack of policy in regards to climate change and the coming ecological disaster.

    Their obliviousness to science. As Clinton put it so well, it even goes to arithmetic.

    The denigration of working class people especially union workers and support of laws and policies that make them even more powerless than they are.

    The denigration of public employees especially teachers and support of laws and policies that make them even more powerless than they are.

    Any law interfering with a women's right to decide on any health decisions relating to her reproductive health especially invasive unneeded invasive ultrasound medical procedures.

    These are just off the top of my head

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 8:20 am on Tue, Sep 11, 2012.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2830

    Mr Lucas wrote:

    Four years ago, we were losing 800,000 jobs a month, the financial system nearly collapsed and the auto industry was bankrupt.

    -Hmmm,
    Detroit started showing signs of collapse in the 60's. Government subsidies kept Detroit afloat. It was a testing ground for liberalism. Welfare started there. Now were see liberalism rerar it's ugly head again with the teachers strike in Chicago. The average teachers salary is $76K there.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 8:10 am on Tue, Sep 11, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Mr Lucas makes a tired old argument that socialism is not liberalism... when in reality, there is no reason to see a difference.

    Both support government control and force's it's citizens to comply with their anti capitalist positions. Business and economic success is the enemy of liberals and socialists. The general population must be forced to accept the liberal's protection from the evil businesses and corporations.

    Modern liberalism says that the state should interfere not only in economic or political affairs, but also in social affairs, such as day-to-day activities of its citizens. In effect, modern liberalism ceases to be associated with classical liberalism, and instead becomes similar to socialism.

    Capitalists and supporters of democracy believe that socialism and modern liberalism are detrimental to economic progress. Because prices of goods and wage of workers is controlled directly by the government, privately-owned companies and institutions cannot flourish under a socialist or modern liberalist government. People who value freedom of speech and human rights likewise oppose socialism and modern liberalism, because they believe that such ideologies limit a citizen’s right to choose which products to buy, what job to take, what religious belief to espouse. Even though modern liberalism is more subtle and suave than socialism, it still ends up giving too much power to the government in the guise of economic, political, and social security.
    http://www.differencebetween.net/miscellaneous/politics/difference-between-socialism-and-liberalism/

     
  • Jay Samone posted at 8:09 am on Tue, Sep 11, 2012.

    Jay Samone Posts: 359

    From Dictionary.com:

    Liberalism:

    "a political or social philosophy advocating the freedom of the individual, parliamentary systems of government, nonviolent modification of political, social, or economic institutions to assure unrestricted development in all spheres of human endeavor, and governmental guarantees of individual rights and civil liberties."

    Sorry John, I'm not buying your "definition" of liberalism. As with all philosophies, they are subject to conjecture and speculation. What may be your truth, may be someone else's falsehood. To state that liberalism (a philosophy) will "save the world" may be true in your mind, but in practicality and by your definition, it is unattainable and unsustainable.

    And finally, give it a rest man. You will never change someone's mind no matter how much smoke you blow, and by calling them a dolt doesn't do much to add to your credibility.

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 8:06 am on Tue, Sep 11, 2012.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2830

    Everything in moderation.

    I can see why people see liberalism as a disease. Just like alcohol, if you go too far you become addicted to it. And then when you try to kick the habit here comes the withdrawls. Debbie Wasserman Schultz comes to mind. She's already having withdrawls in advance because she knows Romney has it all wrapped up.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 7:52 am on Tue, Sep 11, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    You did not say "why" you thought liberalism is a disease. You just stated it as if it were a fact.

    I do not blame any of my personal problems on the the insanity of Conservative thought or "imaginary villains". The fact is that I am doing very well financially. I know as a Conservative you will not get this but I do feel empathy for those caught in the financial disaster caused by Conservative ideas and policies.

    I know I should not insult your intelligence as much as I do. It is a character defect. It is also pointless for you do the job so well in the words that you write.

    When you wrote:

    I think you are an intelligent man that is severely misguided with ill-conceived notions.

    This is called projection

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 7:16 am on Tue, Sep 11, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Mr Lucas stated...Your arguments supporting your idea that liberalism is a disease are classic

    Mr Lucas...I was simply observing why people draw the conclusion that liberalism is a disease. They see people like yourself draw inexplicable conclusions and then blame it on a disease.

    Personally, in reality, I do not think liberalism is a disease at all. It simply is an easy way to classify hateful, biased inconsiderate liberals like yourself. I cannot imagine a more intolerant, angry, bitter person than you than laughingly blames all problems on your imaginary villains.

    When someone is childish enough to insult people's intelligence as a way to bolster their position like you do, one can easily draw a conclusion that anything you say lacks merit and sound reasoning.

    I think you are an intelligent man that is severely misguided with ill-conceived notions.


     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 6:35 am on Tue, Sep 11, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Mr Lucas stated...These were brought on by 8 years of conservative policies.

    Of course he completely ignores the liberal policies that led to the housing crash. Barney Frank and Dodd are liberals Mr Lucas... the contributed greatly to the housing problems....

    Maybe if you identified exactly which conservative policies you were thinking of, one might think you were serious.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 6:27 am on Tue, Sep 11, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    What i love about your posts is the depth of your analysis and nuanced way you weave your arguments supporting your ideas. Your arguments supporting your idea that liberalism is a disease are classic and should be in textbooks everywhere and your counter arguments to my "bizarre" conclusions are breathtaking in the scope and your soaring intellect just shines through.

    dolt |dōlt| noun
    a stupid person.

     
  • Kim Parigoris posted at 6:20 am on Tue, Sep 11, 2012.

    Kim Parigoris Posts: 470

    Here is what C.L. Bryant, a black pastor and producer of the new movie "Runaway Slave" has to say about liberalism. "“I remember ‘Negro Day’ at the fair and that was the one day in the fair that [blacks] could go. I grew up in that type of environment,” he explained, going on to joke, “It always seemed that white folks controlled the weather because it always rained that day!”
    These life experiences led to a “natural progression” into NAACP leadership. But success leading the civil rights chapter didn’t last for long. After a celebrated presidency within the group, the tides began to turn.
    “I came to a conclusion that they not only wanted to control my agenda — they also wanted to control me,” he explained.
    After he declined an invitation to speak at a pro-choice rally based on his personal views on abortion, his problems with the NAACP began. As a result of this principled stance, Bryant said that his “star that was rising began to wane.”
    While he inevitably left his leadership role with NAACP, he said that, looking back on the experience, it was a good opportunity that gave him “a unique view of both sides of the aisle.” It was after this stint with the liberal group that Bryant had an epiphany — one that has, for the past 19 years — solidified his standing as a conservative.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 6:12 am on Tue, Sep 11, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Kim, thank you for adding substance rather than appeal to people's emotions and fears as Mr Lucas did.

    Liberalism is thought to be a disease as evidenced by Mr Lucas and his bizarre conclusions.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 6:10 am on Tue, Sep 11, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    socialism |ˈnoun
    a political and economic theory of social organization that advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------
    Liberalism is not Socialism. This canard really gets old and just shows ignorance on one who tries to equate the two. All societies regulate human activity to a certain degree otherwise there would be no need for a government at all. It is that degree and who gets the benefits from those regulations that defines the philosophy of the any government. Since Ronald Reagan we have away from Liberalism and moved closer and closer to an Oligarchy.

    oligarchy |ˈäliˌgärkē, ˈōli-| noun
    a small group of people having control of a country, organization, or institution:

    America's creation was a reaction to the oligarchy of that era which was a combination of the aristocracy and the monied interests of Europe. Today is is moneyed interests, especially corporate interests that have slowly taken more power and strangled our economy with a selfishness and greed that is as old as the hills. Their front group is the Republican Party.They are aided by the dolts that go to the polls and vote Republican. This includes the modern "Tea Party", Libertarians and middle class Americans whose political philosophy is the modern so-called "Conservative". It is not an accident that when the Republican party has the power for any length of time it always ends in economic disaster. It is the natural byproduct of selfishness and greed. The same principles that work in our private lives govern our public life as a nation. They are spiritual in nature.

     
  • Kim Parigoris posted at 4:43 am on Tue, Sep 11, 2012.

    Kim Parigoris Posts: 470

    Here is liberalism at work...The National Homeownership Strategy began in 1994 when Clinton directed HUD Secretary Henry Cisneros to come up with a plan, and Cisneros convened what HUD called a "historic meeting" of private and public housing-industry organizations in August 1994. The group eventually produced a plan, of which Mason sent me a PDF of Chapter 4, the one that argues for creative measures to promote homeownership.
    The very worst idea in the plan, which fortunately never gained approval, was to let first-time homebuyers freely tap their IRA and 401(k) retirement-savings plans with no penalty to scrounge up a downpayment. That, HUD estimated, would have "benefited" 600,000 families in the first five years.
    Plenty of other ideas in the plan did become reality, though. Knowing what we know now about the housing bust, the earnest language in the document seems faintly ridiculous. Here's an excerpt. Read it closely and you can see the seeds of disaster being planted:
    For many potential homebuyers, the lack of cash available to accumulate the required downpayment and closing costs is the major impediment to purchasing a home. Other households do not have sufficient available income to to make the monthly payments on mortgages financed at market interest rates for standard loan terms. Financing strategies, fueled by the creativity and resources of the private and public sectors, should address both of these financial barriers to homeownership.

     
  • Kim Parigoris posted at 4:42 am on Tue, Sep 11, 2012.

    Kim Parigoris Posts: 470

    Socialism has never worked.. Look at Greece, Spain- the bandaid applied in the last 4 years is all smoke and mirrors and a shell game. Republican, Democrat- it doesn;t matter- they are not that much different. Bush was entirely too liberal and spent money like a drunken sailor. Liberalism is financially unsustainable. How many countries have a strong middle class in today's world? America did, before all the environmental zealots, entitlement programs, and over regulation took over. We need to get our financial house in order and subsidizing solar plants and demonizing oil and natural gas drilling, is not doing that. Leave the free markets alone and let the private sector take the helm. Don't like the B of A executive greed? Take your money out of it, and go to a credit union. The people have the power- not the government, and liberalism promotes big government. Bush and McCain warned about the housing bubble back in 2004 and was told by Barney Frank (on video) that everything was "just fine"

     

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