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Everyone deserves a fair chance in court

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Posted: Thursday, September 20, 2012 12:00 am | Updated: 6:25 am, Thu Sep 20, 2012.

Attorney John Manly and Travis Trotter are going around acting like Father Michael Kelly is guilty because they filed a civil suit. There have been no criminal charges filed against Father Kelly. This is America, and we shouldn't hang people before they are even charged with a crime. Does anyone else wonder why there aren't dozens of victims, and why this allegation is coming up now after years in the news?

Some people will lie for money, and you shouldn't believe everything a civil lawyer says. They can be very clever about distorting the truth. All I ask is to give Father Kelly a fair chance and don't judge too hastily.

Erika Robinson

Clements

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Welcome to the discussion.

43 comments:

  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 8:43 pm on Mon, Sep 24, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Mr. Chang reveals himself to be close minded . He judges the content of my posts based on his perception of history… He decided before he read a word, just because I was here.

    A reasonable person assesses each post one case at a time no matter who the author is. I disagree with Mr. Chang often, yet there are times he makes me smile and surprises me with substance.

    I cannot imagine a decent person would think convicting innocent men is not a serious topic. Mr Chang holds a odd position.

     
  • Walter Chang posted at 5:58 pm on Mon, Sep 24, 2012.

    Walt Posts: 1117

    "Sinking to a low"

    Darrell would know, it's familar territory for him!!

    Yes, it's a tragic topic...

    However, your involvement here tells me it's not a serious discussion!

    [wink]

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 11:55 am on Mon, Sep 24, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Mr Chang stated..."Mr Golay, you are leaving this forum for now?" Mission Complete!!

    Good job, funny local man.

    Sinking to a low befitting Mr Schmidt. This is a tragic topic Mr Chang. It is not funny and neither are you.

     
  • Walter Chang posted at 11:02 am on Sun, Sep 23, 2012.

    Walt Posts: 1117

    "Mr Golay, you are leaving this forum for now?"

    Mission Complete!!

    Good job, funny local man.

    You wore this one down in only 20 posts!!

    Congratulations...

    Another $NAP operative, groupie or sympathizer sent packing.

    [beam]

     
  • dave howard posted at 10:38 pm on Sat, Sep 22, 2012.

    dave howard Posts: 25

    Same with O.J. and Robert Blake.
    You have people like Geraldo and Nance Grace who convict them
    long before they have been charged.
    You see this in the liberal media day after day and it backfires
    on them.
    Maybe if these two would stick to cooking shows or baking cup cakes
    the outcome of Blake and OJ might have been different.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 9:15 pm on Sat, Sep 22, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Am discomforted to see that you are equally so with my lack, as you call it, disclosure. Have I ever ask that of you, or anyone on this forum? Is it required to be a participant?

    Mr Golay, I am very pleased to offer my information since I have been so vocal and wish to clarify my objectivity.

    There are three Darrell Baumbachs in the area. My name is Darrell Lee Baumbach Jr of Acampo California. I do not hide my connection in any way to demonstrate I am not an advocate for either side of the case. If you were to provide the same information about you that I provided about me, I could run a report to determine your connection to this case. That is why you refuse to provide it.

    I specialize in Flexible Benefit Arrangements and claims adjudication. Obviously from my posts, I do not have any connections to the legal profession.

    I do not attend any church and consider myself an agnostic. I am not in this debate because of any conflict of interest. I have never met father Kelly or the accuser.

    You on the other hand, do have a conflict of interest( in my opinion) and you have a professional level of expertice.You only participate in this forum on this case.

    Therefore, it is obvious why you are refusing to come clean.

     
  • Steve Golay posted at 6:27 pm on Sat, Sep 22, 2012.

    Cadavera Vero Innumera Posts: 43

    RETURNING TO MAKE THE FOLLOWING:

    Mr. Baumbach,

    Am discomforted to see that you are equally so with my lack, as you call it, disclosure. Have I ever ask that of you, or anyone on this forum? Is it required to be a participant?

    I will not address your latest inquires about my person. And I, for the record, make no inquires or judgments about why you are so intent on asking "who I am" or "where I live". Frankly, I am not that much of a private person - or even an interesting one. I rarely draw the shades. Don't really care who looks upon my life. It has its own sadness and its own joys. After much labor I learned that the joys can EXORCISE the sadness - and dread, and crippling fear.

    There is no need to live under the threat of the BIG LIE and the BIG SHAME. Their triggers can be disarmed.

    Hopefully my exit will lower the temperature here.

    Yet you did ask an interesting question: "This is why independent evidence is so important.". A seed for a fruitful discussion when I return - if I do.

    The notion of "independent evidence" dovetails my earlier question about what constitutes a "witness" in a case such as this. There are witnesses, of a sort. Am counting on Mr. Manly, Esq., Attorney-at-Law, to fetter them out and put them under oath.

    Say and imply as you wish, Darrell. I will not respond. Wanted to readers of this forum to understand that.

    Adieu. I have work to do.


     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 2:35 pm on Sat, Sep 22, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Mr Golay, you are leaving this forum for now?

    Which office will you be staying? SNAP's or Manly's...

    If neither, which one is outsourcing their requests to you?

    I know you prefer anonymous advantages like John Doe the accuser... but come clean. You can prove that you are independent or not simply by posting what city you are located in and your full name. For example, There is a Stephen Golay in Sonora, one in Jamestown one in Santa Cruz... but which one are you?

    There are many more Steve Golay's across the country... but which one are you. I am surprised you are hiding your connection to this case. I would think to avoid the appearance of impropriety, you would disclose.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 2:22 pm on Sat, Sep 22, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405


    Mr Golay Tof the "John Doe advance conviction Team stated

    take care, be well.

    In my view, Mr Golay, viciously attacked the credibility of father Kelly and was laying the foundation for the jury pool to ignore the fact that no evidence exists other than the testimony of the accuser. He is now wanting to leave the perception he is a warm caring person who is only an objective observer.

    This man, in my opinion, is linked to the accuser. He refused to post anything that one can trace where he is located or who pays him. He is deceptive in my opinion.
    He knows if he were to divulge his connection after denying he is an advocate for the accuser, would lose credibility. If you cannot trust him on that account, how can you trust him concerning anything he says.

    In his view, it is very important that the public empathizes and develops compassion in John Dow and everyone associated with their public relations team. It means a big pay check.

    This is big business, Millions at stake. Mr Golay has never made a post at LNS until this case appeared. Why? Why now and why this case?

    He is a part of the team aimed at convincing the general public that their position has merit. The general public in this area will produce a jury that determines the size of the check they covet. Its all about the money $$$$$$$$$$$

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 2:01 pm on Sat, Sep 22, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Mr Golay of the "John Doe advance conviction Team stated...Talk about muddying up the water of the jury pool!

    THESE POINTS:1.) The word "coaching" seems to be used by you in a very deliberate manner. These days, it is a term freighted with meaning - most of it hostile.


    Please tell me you are joking Mr Golay. This attorney has won case after case after case. He has seen it all. He knows what the results will be before the trial begins.

    He knows what words in testimony will result in compassion by the jury to rescue and side with the accuser.

    In preparation, if the accuser were to say... I think is was Mr Kelly that came into the room.. you know very well after the preparation is completed, the accuser will say... Mr Kelly came into to room. I will never forget the terror I felt looking into his eyes.

    The first story, he loses the case...the second story nets him millions of dollars.


    Are you trying to convince me that this does not happen? This is why independent evidence is so important.

     
  • Steve Golay posted at 12:58 pm on Sat, Sep 22, 2012.

    Cadavera Vero Innumera Posts: 43

    FINAL NOTE.

    Need to add one more point in my prior posting:

    7) It is important to distinguish between "faulty" and "false" memory. Faulty Memory can be corrected, restored to the true recollection of events. False Memory can (should) only be removed, excised; unless, on those rare occasions, it has attached itself to serious, uncorrectable psychosis.


    P.S: In addition to the commentary of "Witnesses", may also post my "Clarion Call to all those Abused". A piece in the works long before my entry on this forum.

    Take care, be well.

     
  • Steve Golay posted at 12:31 pm on Sat, Sep 22, 2012.

    Cadavera Vero Innumera Posts: 43

    Unless something pops up I am taking a break from this forum. May, though, post my brief commentary and what I think constitutes a "witness" in a case such as this. It is an item brought up frequently here - as in "there were no witnesses so there is no case." Yes, there most likely were (are) witnesses - of a kind.

     
  • Steve Golay posted at 12:24 pm on Sat, Sep 22, 2012.

    Cadavera Vero Innumera Posts: 43

    Darrell, you wrote on Sept 20th: "This accuser may have been coached for years. This accuser may truely believe his story but has false memories... I do not know. I do know justice demands independent evidence and proof from that of the accuser.

    Talk about muddying up the water of the jury pool!

    THESE POINTS:

    1.) The word "coaching" seems to be used by you in a very deliberate manner. These days, it is a term freighted with meaning - most of it hostile. Am sure you are not referring to the common and expected practice of preparing clients for the rigors of a trial. Even Kelly's defense attorney would do that.

    2.) By your tone and choice of words intend to say that the Plaintiff's counsel prepared "coaching sessions" with the intention of creating in the mind of their client "false memories" - in short, the construction of events that never occurred. So professionally done that their client actually believes they happened; even more, that their client's perception (emotional attachment to these "false" events) are accurate and his alone. That the clients belief in these"false" events has been established so firmly that they will withstand any test or examination.

    3) #2 takes some doing. In some intelligence circles such can be (most likely is) done. But even that, with those folks, the perfect construction of fictitious events in a person's memory requires, FIRST, the cleaning of the slate of the "subject's" mind. Think that is beyond the expertize of even Mr. Manly. So if Mr. Manly (or his agent) is the creator of these "false memories" in the mind of his client what procedures did they use? What date - day/month/year - did they begin? How many sessions did it take to establish those "false" memories so they could survive a grilling during a court trial. You (or, defense counsel) must answer these questions if your goal is to downgrade or dismiss the testimony of the "accuser".

    4) Let's see now. Your story is that these" false" memories were established in the mind of the victim recently, over a period of time - it doesn't much matter - but they were created in the mind of a now 24 year-old about events that happened to him when he was 11-12. Do you know how difficult that is? And you can't just say that is so, because all it takes is for him to believe that they did happen. You don't get it - or you don't get the complexity of the human mind. Again, I state, such reconstruction can only be done by the most drastic (and inhumane) of operations. Especially on an adult..

    5) Sexual assault in itself (the very act of it) can create split-off, isolated segments of a person's mind (personality) where these sad events are "stored" - for the management of their dread and pain; but these are not "false" memories, they are not necessarily even Repressed Memories. Some are, but the so-called "repression" is simply of way of managing the trauma of violating and violent events. The recovery of those "repressed" events, under done properly, is an act of remembrance not fictitious reconstruction. One more thing, the perfect creation of foolproof "false" memory can only be done on "subjects' below the age of 5; and done by programming the subject through a series of brutal, traumatic acts. This has been sadly documented by experiments the Nazis did on children in the concentration camps. The "Mystery Religions" of the ancient Near East did something similar several thousand years ago. The Mayans. The voodoo cults of the Caribbean and Brazil, and wherever those Nazi scientists escaped to at the closing of WW2. The current movie/music/clothing zombie fad only highlights this. But we gone astray from our point: which is, the creation of perfect "false" memory that can withstand scrutiny is a mighty difficult act to pull off. And, that was your implied suggestion. That John-Doe of San Andreas has been programmed to perfectly falsify in court without detection.

    6) Now, there can be an alternate to your meaning. You may be suggesting that the "accuser" has, more or less, implanted these "false" memories himself - whenever and by however means. Maybe with a little bit of help from his "friends". But this is the weakest of claims - and John-Doe's counsel would never introduce that in trial for the defense to boomerang back upon him; he would care too much for his law practice to let that happen. A good attorney would have all that sorted out before anyone took an oath. Self-created "false" memories are fragile; in cases like these, something greatly loved by defense counsels. This San Andreas case would not have proceeded this far if that was the basis of the accusations. Mr. Manly, Esq., Attorney-at-Law, has seen something else in this case - the creditability of firm and distinct recall of events. Events in the life of a 12 year-old boy that can stand legal scrutiny, and that the Law is much interested in looking at.

     
  • Steve Golay posted at 8:33 am on Sat, Sep 22, 2012.

    Cadavera Vero Innumera Posts: 43

    CORRECTION:

    Prior message, towards end, it should read: ". . .that Jesus would pass by and exorcise those phantoms . . .

     
  • Steve Golay posted at 8:26 am on Sat, Sep 22, 2012.

    Cadavera Vero Innumera Posts: 43

    If the boy, by direction of his counsel, tells "a well rehearsed [false] story" on the witness stand - and under oath - let alone in the summons and the deposition, then the boy lied and has presumably perjured himself.

    All the defense has to do is to prove that. Issue their own summons to put the kid under oath to confirm that he had willfully, maliciously lied under oath.

    It's that simple.

    Then the diocese is off the hook, free from the embarrassment of having to pass the collection plate to buy Mr. Manly, Esq., Attorney-at-Law that Bentley for his 5-door Malibu garage.

    But if the boy is telling the truth - under oath - then something very evil

    Poor Calaveras County. It already had to endure the phantom of Fr. Grady's molesting haunts and the those hovering sad satanic murdered shades of Charles Ng. The place is truly spooked. One almost wishes that Jesus could pass by the exorcise those phantoms and shades into a herd of jumping frogs!

    Hopefully he doesn't have the time - too busy encouraging lads and boys that truth-telling is redemptive and liberating.

    What about it, men? Are you going to let one lad stand alone? But, frankly, that is all Truth needs to shine its bright glory - even upon the ugly.

    What happened in San Andreas has nothing to do with Bentleys parked in Malibu.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 4:46 pm on Fri, Sep 21, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    and Mr Golay... to go one step more, If a SNAP representative such as yourself were on the jury, all te proof needed to find the defendet guilty... is that he is a priest... case closed.

    May I ask, which SNAP office are you afiliated with? Time to claim your trophy.

    Im getting the hang of this. All I have to do is accuse Mr Golay of being a SNAP representative, and since SNAP states they have never seen a false accuser, you are guilty Mr Golay...

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 4:40 pm on Fri, Sep 21, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Mr.Golay stated...Of course that leaves the Plaintiff's attorney with the chore to establish facts

    Mr Golay, the case is over, the outcome is predetermined... relax...your guy will get his millions and the attorney will collect his fee...

    The last jury established that no evidence is needed to hand out a 3.7 million award. Facts are not important. Guilt or innocence is irrelevant.

    It does not matter if repressed memories are claimed or not. It does not matter what the defense does. Father Kelly is a priest that committed the crime, according to the accuser, of going into someone's home unannounced. What more evidence could you ask for. All that's left is for the accuser to tell a story on the stand, tell a well rehearsed story that grabs the heart of the jury, and the slot machine will flow.

    The only mystery is, will John Doe's attorney buy a new house in San Diego or in Malibu and will he park his new Bentley in a 6 car or 5 car garage.

    This is just like that Tom Cruz movie...Show Me the Money!!!!

     
  • Steve Golay posted at 2:40 pm on Fri, Sep 21, 2012.

    Cadavera Vero Innumera Posts: 43

    Maybe I'll be shown up, proven wrong, that Repressed Memory (Recovered) will be used by the Plaintiff's attorney to establish the veracity of this "John Doe" case. Don't think so. Mr. Manly's office said Repressed Memory is not a factor.

    Still, I'll stay with my earlier observation: If the majority of priest abuse cases have Repressed Memory squirreling into trial proceedings, an this John Doe case from San Andreas does not, would that not make this case (civil that is) a mold breaker, a new benchmark in the prosecution of thee cases (civil or criminal). If there's not much room for the defense to say: Are you sure your memory's not all screwed up. Sorry guy, your memory of the facts is so muddied by the sludge of passing of time and the contamination of other unrelated thoughts and events, that it is not reliable, not capable to establishing facts-in-evidence - something like that. Without Repressed Memory being a factor (with its notion of cognitive and emotional confusion) the defense is left with its choice, to destroy the creditability of the Plaintiff by other means - in short, to call him a liar, and his legal counsel an abetter of those lies.

    Again, I may be all wet in my wrongness. But show me a priest abuse case in which the Plaintiff's counsel gladly laid aside welding Repressed Memory? If Mr. Manly, Esq., Attorney-at-Law, is willing to prosecute this case without picking up that sword then something must be afoot - a presentation of testimony and evidence that does not need past adjudications of priest abuse cases to bolster the claims in this one. The fact that the Trotter case was settled just a few months ago may not have the play some assume it will.

    Of course that leaves the Plaintiff's attorney with the chore to establish facts (and their standing as evidence in court) by other means. What facts, and how established, no one knows on this forum knows. And yes, the "what" and "how" for a civil case will be other than if this was a criminal case - but so what. Our legal system gives place for both without the one denigrating the other.

    OK, I hear it! This San Andreas case IS a decade long case; the alleged incidents occurred in 2000-2002, thereabouts. It is this like any other priest abuse case clouded and fogged by time's passing. Therefore . . .

    Doesn't hold. For one, Repressed Memory is not being presented as a fact or a tool in prosecuting this case. Another, the alleged sexual assault happened when the victim was 11-12 years of age. That is significant. For the remembrance and recitation of particular events, let alone their mental and emotional outcomes, held and handled very differently by a 12 year-old than a 5 year-old, for instance. And lastly - and believe me - the holding of those events and outcomes have been front and center to that boy's life these past 10-12 years. To him, it is almost as if it were yesterday the first time he heard the knock and opened up the door. (Right?) The Plaintiff's counsel will know how to establish the veracity of that by the presentation of evidence, and the use of expert witnesses.

    All this to say, that San Andreas (if it comes to trail, civil and/or criminal) may become a landmark in these priest abuse cases. And I don't think I'm the only one whose woken at 3AM ruminating on that possibility.

    Again, none of know how Mr. Manly, Esq., will be presenting and establishing facts in the trail (and, once more, the duty of that is different in civil than it is in criminal court), and none of us know if he will be successful - but one can't help but sense that something's in the air.

    Am I glad for it? No. Yet it is a Calvary that will pass through many before this is over.

    And if this goes criminal, the conversation becomes other I suppose. And, I do know the burden of proof required in such instances. Believe me. But if you still wish to educate me, go ahead. But I am still a bit bemused how that level of proof keeps slipping into our discussion of this civil case.

    LAST NOTE: It's a bit dated (July) but the Calaveras-Enterprise has an piece focusing more on the efforts of that county's sheriff's department. It quotes an exasperated Sargent describing how the Friends of Father Kelly have inundated the department with various communications, so much so they are "freighting an already lengthily legal process . . (that) investigations are way back up". Hope things have lightened since. The article also reminds us of multiple complaints from potential victims. Maybe many of these have been dismissed by now. Nevertheless, hope the department's load has lightened up. Interesting to know, though, that the Friends of Kelly have been out there inundating.


    __________________________________

    Had written a little piece on what, in this case, constitutes a witness. Maybe I'll post it. Have, for some time, been puzzled why a certain phenomenon has been overlooked in these priest abuse cases. Does it dovetail into San Andreas, don't know?

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 1:03 pm on Fri, Sep 21, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Jay Samone posted at 9:04 am on Fri, Sep 21, 2012... I do want to know though - what the heck is this SNAP and are they truly for the victims or are they for the publicity (read: money)?

    In my opinion, this post I found online holds my view somewhat...

    There is a small but steadily increasing trickle of genuine abuse survivors who recognize SNAP for what it is: a trial lawyer's caseload farming system, and for what SNAP is not: a victim's advocacy group.

    SNAP will not ever let a priest vigorously defend his innocence, they will shamelessly proclaim any accused priest's guilt before even the first legal brief is filed. SNAP will, by their own admission, maintain and insist upon the guilt of ANY accused priest, regardless of the veracity of the accusation, and even when an accused priest is proven to be innocent.

    SNAP in it's current form is a sham, and any true victims that aligns themselves with SNAP will remain a victim, and even become a "professional victim". I have and will continue to issue this challenge to SNAP: when will you fire your scandalous publicists and disassociate yourselves from the greedy trial lawyers, and return SNAP back to it's honorable roots?

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 12:49 pm on Fri, Sep 21, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    I I stated...Mr Golay of the Trotter/John Doe public relations firm stated...

    in order to label the intent of Mr Golay's posts...

    For full disclosure ... I represent ..."The Innocent Until Proven Guilty" by evidence public relations firm... to label the intent of my posts.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 12:43 pm on Fri, Sep 21, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Mr Golay of the Trotter/John Doe public relations firm stated... That Repressed Memory (which seems to be the bug-bear of all these Catholic cases) will not be tapped into throws this particular case into a different ring -

    The Trotter case opened the door to finding this man guilty without a shred of evidence. The John Doe case (jury)will use the Trotter case as evidence he is likely guilty... ( even though they will be instructed not to)

    Thank you for interjecting humor in such a serious case. Unless the John Doe case is held in India where a jury can be found that does not understand English nor hear of repressed memory cases, the Trotter case is fresh and will influence the result of the John Doe case, especially in this area.

    I understand that the court most likely will give the jury instructions to not take repressed memories into account and that the Trotter case is not related to the John Doe case... the appearance of fairness will be presented... then the jury will listen to the testimony of the accuser... then quickly convict no matter what the defense does... It is already a done deal. The script has been written, the players are set, the only thing left is who will be the jurors that award the millions to the accuser, I'm sorry, I mean victim, and at which hotel the champagne will be flowing for the jury and victim to celebrate justice served...

    This case is already over... People like you have already helped to predetermined the outcome. If you think it is possible to get a fair trial in this witch hunt like environment, I think you are naive

     
  • Steve Golay posted at 11:02 am on Fri, Sep 21, 2012.

    Cadavera Vero Innumera Posts: 43

    Jerome, useful points. Bur the San Andreas case is not "decades old" and, according to one report, Repressed Memory will not an issue here. References are meant to illustrate a point, add something to chew on.

    That Repressed Memory (which seems to be the bug-bear of all these Catholic cases) will not be tapped into throws this particular case into a different ring - along with the fact that (in these Catholic cases) this can be considered a recent event. This elevates the importance of Johnn Doe's testimony -- and the charges listed in the summons. If I am correct here this case (civil and/or criminal) will be closely watched. It may have ramifications and implications. Research it. Which Catholic Priest cases have the characteristics of this one from San Andreas.

    Darrell - keep looking!

     
  • Jay Samone posted at 9:04 am on Fri, Sep 21, 2012.

    Jay Samone Posts: 359

    I have to agree with Mr. Chang here Darrell. They really are wound up about this - they clearly scanned online newspapers with a Fr. Kelly keyword search so they could post how guilty he is. [huh]

    I do want to know though - what the heck is this SNAP and are they truly for the victims or are they for the publicity (read: money)?

     
  • Jerome Kinderman posted at 11:54 pm on Thu, Sep 20, 2012.

    Jerome R Kinderman Posts: 2353

    While there's no requirement (that I know of) that civil cases be held until after a criminal jury hears the evidence under a more difficult standard of proof, perhaps a law should be passed that if the government plans to bring criminal charges, civil cases must be held in abeyance.

    While a loss to a defendant in a civil case won't bring a misdemeanor or criminal conviction or sentence to jail or prison, such a conviction sullies the character and reputation of another human being causing incredible life-long damage. Tell me that a jury member in a subsequent criminal trial wouldn't take into account such a civil loss and I'll easily point out a liar.

    Like others here I don't know this Father Kelly and have formed no opinion as to his guilt or innocence (I refuse to follow links from anyone suggesting that such Internet sites actually contain all the evidence one might need to form such opinions) as Mr. Golay "assigns" to contributors here.

    Frankly, these “he said/she said” types of decades-old cases consisting of repressed memory hold little interest to me other than to cause me to think that unless there is other verifiable evidence to bolster the claim(s) of the accuser(s), such a case should be dismissed WITH prejudice. Clearly of all organizations on the face of the planet capable of massive payout potential it is the Catholic Church. As such, this must be taken into account when deciding to move forward with such evidence-challenged cases.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 10:22 pm on Thu, Sep 20, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Mr Golay... you are avoiding my questions... what is your connection. I do not see where you have posted anything.

    Where are you from. How are you connected to SNAP. What is your relationship with the attorney representing the accused? Are you paid by anyone connected to this case?

    You are only here for this case and have not made comments in this paper concerning any other topic. Why are you wanting Kelly found guilty? It appeears there is conflict of interest.

    Why are you hiding who you are and why you are here? Why stay anonymous?
    I have researched your name , there are 4 in California... which city are you in?

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 10:14 pm on Thu, Sep 20, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    to summerize... its he said/she said material... noevidence of abuse... again, where is the physical evidence, witness, dna, anything... you can postall these accusations, but again... no evidence that substantiates the accusations are real.

    This accuser may have been coached for years. This accuser may truely believe his story but has false memories... I do not know. I do know justice demands independent evidence and proof from that of the accuser.

     
  • Steve Golay posted at 9:55 pm on Thu, Sep 20, 2012.

    Cadavera Vero Innumera Posts: 43

    Darrell, please see my latest remarks posted on the earlier article below. No need to re-post it here. Thank you.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 5:17 pm on Thu, Sep 20, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Thats ok Mr Chang... Ill be the dull intellectual type that "attempts" to debate points and seek truth. You do a good job of being the jokester and making mocking slurs... you are the head of that department. [beam]

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 4:34 pm on Thu, Sep 20, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405


    Mr Golay... you claim or assert that you are not a SNAP representative and was not really interested in this case until recently...yet, you ofter posts that are very detailed and exhaustive. You write in a style and manner that SNAP representatives do.

    How about some evidence and proof. What City do you work out of? What city do you live? How long have you been in this area if in fact you live here? Do you have a facebook account?

    Please post something that I can complete a verification file and determine your connections.
    I was born and raised in Lodi, I'm local. I am easy to find and verify. I am willing to put my name out there for locals to judge me.

    If you are connected to SNAP, you will keep it secret like the others do. Prove me wrong... prove that you are not connected to SNAP.. or do you prefer the John Doe status that the accuser has?

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 4:25 pm on Thu, Sep 20, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Mr Golay stated...Wouldn't, and no need to "paste & copy" the information - to graphic. But it needs to be read by any who is going to comment on the preparation and this civil suit

    Can you please post any evidence that can be verified independently. I am interested in facts, evidence, DNS, witnesses, third party people who have nothing to gain by testimony.

    Accusations are just that ... assertions . Is it not blatantly obvious that physical evidence, witnesses or some type of proof that something wrong was done should be available to substantiate the claims of an accuser.?

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 4:15 pm on Thu, Sep 20, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Mr Golay stated...Everyone. Time out. Inhale, exhale.

    EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!

    That was the point of the letter and what I have been saying all along... When Erika .Robinson stated... All I ask is to give Father Kelly a fair chance and don't judge too hastily, that means quit calling the accuser a victim... quit using terms that gives the impression that anyone is guilty of anything... maybe the accuser is telling the truth, maybe not... but stop with the emotional faith based "He's guilty" type language and lets wait for real evidence to present itself...

    As far as this not being a criminal case ,of course it is civil...but civility to father Kelly is non existent but I think railroading and tainting the jury pool should be a criminal case... when you and your SNAP friends attempt to focus on the heart strings of a person who "CLAIMS" to be abused, and make a strong point why you believe him over father Kelly, you know very well that the trial is over once that conclusion is drawn. The Trotter case is evidence of the jury assigning liability to Kelly without a shred of evidence. The believed Trotter like you are now asking everyone to believe John Doe...

    In my view, easy money for the accuser...$$$$$$$$$$$$$...No evidence or witnesses, just write the check.

     
  • Walter Chang posted at 4:07 pm on Thu, Sep 20, 2012.

    Walt Posts: 1117

    Hey funny local man...

    Watching you keep the $NAP operatives and groupies busy...

    Is very entertaining but you need to freshen up your schtick a bit!!!

    [lol]

     
  • Steve Golay posted at 12:45 pm on Thu, Sep 20, 2012.

    Cadavera Vero Innumera Posts: 43

    Everyone. Time out. Inhale, exhale.

    First, stop talking as if this a criminal case - as yet, it's not; and more, stop degrading the seriousness of teh charges because this will stand before the court as a civil case. Truth is no less served because it is docketed in a civil court.

    Assignment: read the summons for the San Andreas case. Public info here. The Lodi News-Sentinel has linked to it. But open it up at this pdf file link:

    http://www.news10.net/assetpool/documents/120911070932_sktn-diocese-civil-complaint-091112.pdf

    As expected most of the 40 odd pages address the defendants, but the pertinent pages that list the alleged charges can be found on 12-14 of the
    printable pdf pages.

    Wouldn't, and no need to "paste & copy" the information - to graphic. But it needs to be read by any who is going to comment on the preparation and this civil suit

    Since the charges are public - and accessible by linkage through this publication - it is proper to make observations on them. Darrell, I fail to see the "danger" in that!

    What comes to my mind? Besides the common behavior of such predators to prepare and "groom" a prospective victim (and, yes, the victim's "community"), it is the blatant confidence Fr. Kelly had in gaining access to the boy. Where did that come from - based on the testimony of the first trial, practiced experience? The ease of it underlies even a causal reading of the charges - if there can be such a thing. A confidence that encouraged Fr. Kelly to go as far as he did, up to . . . By doing the deed - as numerated by the charges - the assault laid down triggers in the boy that permitted Fr. Kelly to control (so he thought) the boy's subjection and the fallout, the consequences of his behavior.

    This is not baseless "intellectualism", as Darrell would put it, it is a careful reading of the public documents.

    Something very serious is happening here. The boy (the young man) will be testifying in court of some gross and violent behaviors of Fr. Kelly. The kid is lying or he is telling the truth.

    READ THE SUMMONS, FOLKS.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 12:21 pm on Thu, Sep 20, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    CONTINUED...

    Since there is no evidence that exists, the lawyer knows that the accused, father Kelly, has no means to defend himself. Father Kelly cannot present DNA evidence that has overturned many cases where people have been falsely accused and convicted. There are no witnesses that can be refute anything the accuser states...
    In other words, people like Mr Golay who pretend to be objective and an independent thinker, wants everyone to have faith and trust that the accuser is telling the truth.

    I thought this was America where we had rights. I thought that courts would not consider a case where it basically is a “he said/she said scenario. I suggest that freedom,fairness and justice is at stake here.
    This is not about religion or priests. This is about living in a country where a fair trial means a person should not be convicted of a crime unless there is evidence to support the charge.

    Whose next? Teachers, day care providers? The slope is looking very slippery.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 12:19 pm on Thu, Sep 20, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Mr Golay, the friend to SNAP CBS/Sacramento reports it this way:

    "The lawsuit alleges the boy had served as an altar boy when Kelly repeatedly came to his house unannounced and assaulted him." Let us break that down:


    Great idea!!!!!!! Lets break this down.

    The lawsuit alleges... This means “(claims). A wealthy attorney who has won over a billion dollars against priests, has skillfully prepared a legal document that might result in gaining millions more... this lawyer knows exactly what to say and do to gain the sympathies and attention of the public. He also knows how to win law suits that many states like Texas would throw out of court because of the lack of evidence.

     
  • Kevin Paglia posted at 9:50 am on Thu, Sep 20, 2012.

    Kevin Paglia Posts: 2024

    For SNAP Members who have said there have never been a flase accusation against a priest:

    http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/09/20/13984806-ex-priest-sues-catholic-church-to-clear-his-name?lite

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 9:21 am on Thu, Sep 20, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Continued...

    In other words Mr Golay... you are an emotional man of faith that will take the word of someone who is seeking millions of dollars. I am not a man of faith nor practice any religion. For example, based on the content of your post, I cannot imagine you are being truthful. You substantiate your position from websites SNAP uses frequently... Since I go by evidence and proof, I do not accept your word just as I do not accept the word of the accuser. If real evidence is presented, that is a different story.

    But please, spare me the faith based justice you are inflicting upon the reader. This is a legal case in a court of law, not a seminar of what people feel and perceive.
    I do not know father Kelly and do not care to meet him. I am a friend to justice... this is not justice.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 9:18 am on Thu, Sep 20, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    An example of this mindset that evidence and proof are not important to convict was posted by Mr Golay on another thread...

    There are only three optional readings of what happened in San Andreas:
    1. The young man is lying. He has, for whatever malicious and malevolent reasons, fabricated the incident(s) and the narrative spun around them.
    2. Something, some event(s) did happened surrounding Fr. Kelly, but the young man has misinterpreted it (them). A misinformed perception abetted by his legal counsel, the significance of which has now been exaggerated. (The motive I leave to you!)
    3. Or, the young man is telling the truth. A truth whose memory has not been repressed but simply unvoiced. Until now.
    I have chosen to accept number three. Assume that most of Fr. Kelly’s friends have settled for number 2.
    I am not father Kelly's friend...I never met the man. Had never heard his name until the trial.
    Mr Golay like his other friends of SNAP are attempting jury nullification in my opinion. They want the jury to ignore the fact that there is no evidence of proof that anything happened. They want people to turn a blind eye and react with emotion.

     
  • Steve Golay posted at 8:56 am on Thu, Sep 20, 2012.

    Cadavera Vero Innumera Posts: 43

    CBS/Sacramento reports it this way:

    "The lawsuit alleges the boy had served as an altar boy when Kelly repeatedly came to his house unannounced and assaulted him."

    Let us break that down:

    REPEATEDLY: obsessively over and over. The boy was tagged as vulnerable and available

    CAME TO THE HOUSE: Cross the threshold of the boy's place of safety. Another source reports "when his parents were not home". Maybe not always, but enough. Was the man keeping tabs of the family's coming and goings?

    UNANNOUNCED: To the parents? To the boy when alone? What gave the man confidence he could have entry?

    ASSAULTED: The kinds,, the types, the species, the frequency of those assaults. Multiple? Again, confident he could so. How so? Why?

    The dreaded detail will be voiced in court. And please, folks, lay aside the "Repressed Memory" thing. Again, it doesn't apply in San Andreas.

    Multiple victims now? Of course any sheriff's dept will drop only hints and clues - or none at all. That is not he basis to form a judgment, let an opinion. From where? More from San Andreas? Sonora? Are we to believe that no one talked to n one. Though often that is the case with sexual assault. The very act of it is an event that places the victim under the control of the perpetrator. Triggers are established that the perpetrator can use to transfer guilt and shame to the victim. As I said elsewhere, this can be seen as ritualized abuse.

    You, you, and you - were you abused? Do you know what's it is like to open the door to that dread - when you were 12 and your parents were not home.

    "Not all memory is repressed, just voiceless."

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 8:50 am on Thu, Sep 20, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Bella stated...The New Yorker has an excellent piece about the MO of pedophiles like priests, doctors, teachers and Jerry Sandusky this week. "In Plain View: How Child Molesters Get Away With it"

    The letter states “All I ask is to give Father Kelly a fair chance and don't judge too hastily” Bella responds as if this is inappropriate and basically is asking the reader to ignore this plea.

    The venomous Bella is so kind to make clear she and SNAP are about vigilantism. She is so consumed by anger and hate that you can almost visualize her salivating as she typed this post.
    All the letter writer was asking for is justice; Evidence, proof and substantiating facts is what will bring justice.
    Mr Trotter won 3.7 million in the last case where not one shread of evidence was presented accorting to a juror. They were convinced something happened because of all the complaints... SNAP, which involved in all child abuse cases nationwide, is making the complaints like we see in Bella's post... notice how quick she posted here. They are on alert and consider all priests guilty just because they are priests.

     
  • Arabella Clark posted at 5:53 am on Thu, Sep 20, 2012.

    Arabella Posts: 129

    Just for the record: Malcolm Gladwell, author of "How Child Molesters Get Away With It" in this week's New Yorker ( you can read it online) is NOT and has NEVER been a member of SNAP.

     
  • Arabella Clark posted at 5:48 am on Thu, Sep 20, 2012.

    Arabella Posts: 129

    The New Yorker has an excellent piece about the MO of pedophiles like priests, doctors, teachers and Jerry Sandusky this week.

    "In Plain View: How Child Molesters Get Away With it"

    http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/atlarge/2012/09/24/120924crat_atlarge_gladwell?currentPage=1

    Malcolm Gladwell, the author of the New Yorker piece and acclaimed author of the best selling books, "The Tipping Point" and "Outliers" states that pedophiles groom their communities first before molesting boys. The predators make friends with the parents, insinuate themselves into community activities; make sure they come across as the good guy.

    Gladwell also talks about how pedophiles start out by first tickling and then wrestling with boys before "testing" them to see if they can go further.

    There have been many, many accounts from boys and parents that Kelly tickled and wrestled with boys. This is how Sandusky started out, too.

    Very illuminating article.

     
  • Arabella Clark posted at 5:35 am on Thu, Sep 20, 2012.

    Arabella Posts: 129

    Ms. Robinson:

    You are way, way, way behind the news curve. Did you not read the Union Democrat story, the Stockton Record story and the Lodi News story from last week that says there is a CRIMINAL investigation into Kelly and that more than one victim has come forward? How do you know dozens have victims have NOT come forward to the police? They're not saying the exact number, but news reports are that more than one have come forward to the police.

    In the criminal investigation that is being conducted by Sgt. Chris Hewitt, there will be NO financial compensation for the victims who come forward.

    Additionally, news reports are that the new 24 year old victim from San Andreas NEVER REPRESSED his memories of the abuse. See quote from story:

    "Finaldi also noted that the new case involving the San Andreas victim doesn’t revolve around repressed memories.

    “This kid is young, he’s only 24 years old, he didn’t repress anything. It’s a red herring to detract from the real issues,” Finaldi said. “How many different victims need to come forward that have specific recollections of it happening?”

    Additionally, if you cared to do your homework by reading up on child abuse, you would have found out that he average age of victims who come forward about abuse, most men don't come forward until their mid thirties or 40s. They're better able to handle the shame and rage that comes with being abused.

    Because medical health professionals have learned through research that the majority victims won't come forward until they are older, many state legislatures, such as Delaware's - have done away with statute of limitations altogether. In the state of Connecticut, victims have until their fiftieth birthday to come forward.

    In Boston, in the last few years the Suffolk County District Attorney's office have successfully criminally prosecuted priests who molested boys in the 1950s and 1960s.

    Last year, just before he died, a 70 year old man came forward to say that he had been molested by a child psychiatrist at Judge Baker Guidance Center in Boston.. His secret had eaten him alive.

    The questions you ask about why it takes so long for victims to come forward are so easily answered - in books, and on the internet. Google is your friend.

    And remember, there is a CRIMINAL investigation into Kelly.

     

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