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Udall Amendment protects our rights as citizens

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Posted: Tuesday, December 6, 2011 12:00 am | Updated: 6:32 am, Tue Dec 6, 2011.

The Senate will be voting on a bill that will direct American military resources not at an enemy shooting at our military in a war zone, but at American citizens and other civilians far from any battlefield — even people in the United States itself.

The Senate is going to vote on whether Congress will give this president "and every future president" the power to order the military to pick up and imprison without charge or trial civilians anywhere in the world. I know it sounds incredible. New powers to use the military worldwide, even within the United States?

The power is so broad that even U.S. citizens could be swept up by the military, and the military could be used far from any battlefield, even within the United States itself. The worldwide indefinite detention without charge or trial provision is in S. 1867, the National Defense Authorization Act bill.

The bill was drafted in secret by Sens. Carl Levin, D-Mich., and John McCain, R-Ariz., and passed in a closed-door committee meeting without even a single hearing. The senators pushing the indefinite detention proposal have made their goals very clear that they want a worldwide military battlefield that even extends to your hometown. That is an extreme position that will forever change our country.

Now is the time to stop this bad idea. Please urge your senators to vote YES on the Udall Amendment to the National Defense Authorization Act.

Andrew Liebich

Lodi

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Welcome to the discussion.

87 comments:

  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 4:37 am on Tue, Dec 20, 2011.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Andrew stated...Darrell, Cluck off!

    Now that's more like it. A Little Chicken humor goes a long way... Now I know a different answer to the age old question of... What did the chicken say when he got to the other side of the road and saw Chicken Little doing his thing?

     
  • Andrew Liebich posted at 6:45 pm on Mon, Dec 19, 2011.

    Andrew Liebich Posts: 2999

    Darrell, Cluck off!

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 12:21 pm on Mon, Dec 19, 2011.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Chicken Little is out of control... relax Mr Little. You are making a mountain out of a grain of sand.

     
  • Andrew Liebich posted at 7:51 am on Mon, Dec 19, 2011.

    Andrew Liebich Posts: 2999

    Quit your squawking Darrell...

    The 5th and 14th ammendments have been eviscerated you dumb cluck!

    WAKE-UP!

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 6:01 am on Mon, Dec 19, 2011.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Andrew = "Chicken Little"... The real torture is having to have Obama as our president. That does much more damage than this bill.

     
  • Andrew Liebich posted at 6:33 pm on Sun, Dec 18, 2011.

    Andrew Liebich Posts: 2999

    Darrell logic: "you have to admire consistent behavior." is not an emotional response having nothing to do with reality...LOL

    Meanwhile...a bill that legalizes the indefinate detainment, toture and killing of American citizens without due process has become law...

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 5:40 pm on Sun, Dec 18, 2011.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    The seal does it again... you have to admire consistent behavior.

     
  • Kim Lee posted at 3:32 pm on Sun, Dec 18, 2011.

    Kim Lee Posts: 1798

    Andrew wrote, "Darrell, Your never ending inability to be logical is your emotional problem. It's not ours."

    True words, Andrew.

     
  • Kim Lee posted at 3:31 pm on Sun, Dec 18, 2011.

    Kim Lee Posts: 1798

    Darrell: Your emotions lead you off track most of the time on these boards. Well, it's probably more like your ego that's the culprit here. Looks like you have some powerful internal tensions going on there, Darrell.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 4:04 am on Sun, Dec 18, 2011.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405


    Klee stated...Andrew @ 3:28: You said it well in one little a nutshell.

    I agree, he said it well. However, it was an emotional response having nothing to do with reality... which explains why Klee appreciated it.

     
  • Kim Lee posted at 2:59 pm on Sat, Dec 17, 2011.

    Kim Lee Posts: 1798

    Andrew @ 3:28: You said it well in one little a nutshell.

     
  • Andrew Liebich posted at 3:28 pm on Wed, Dec 14, 2011.

    Andrew Liebich Posts: 2999

    Darrell,
    Your never ending inability to be logical is your emotional problem. It's not ours. LOL

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 2:44 pm on Wed, Dec 14, 2011.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Yes Andrew... I do share your concern that people in power can abuse people's rights... and your intent is a good one. However, that does not have anything to do with this bill... think Andrew... you and Klee need to think instead of generating outrage from an emotional platform. This is not a logic problem, its an emotional one that you and Klee share.

     
  • Andrew Liebich posted at 2:02 pm on Wed, Dec 14, 2011.

    Andrew Liebich Posts: 2999

    Darrell logic...One day it's "I share your concern that people in power can abuse people's rights."and "I also appreciate your concern for our country and your desire to make things better." and the next it's, "I cannot wait for this bill to pass."

    What a pronk!


     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 1:29 pm on Wed, Dec 14, 2011.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    I cannot wait for this bill to pass...finally, a solution to a problem I have been wanting to solve.

     
  • Andrew Liebich posted at 10:09 am on Wed, Dec 14, 2011.

    Andrew Liebich Posts: 2999

    K Lee,
    The revised version of the bill heads for a final vote on Thursday which ironically is Bill of Rights Day, 220 years since the liberties now about to be eviscerated were first ratified on December 15, 1791...

     
  • Kim Lee posted at 9:21 am on Wed, Dec 14, 2011.

    Kim Lee Posts: 1798

    Daniel Hutchins wrote, "K Lee, I would expect S.1867 to win. If they don't get it this time, they might try to attach it to another bill that must win."

    The passing of S. 1867 is scary and disgraceful. I'm so ticked at Levin and McCain…and the 93 clueless people that voted yes on this bill. What the heck are they thinking? Thank goodness the president is on top of this and will veto S.1867. "We the people..." are really going to have to keep an eye out for the next time the “elected”, who are supposed to be working for us, try to slip this kind of theft of our liberties by us again. How deceitful this has been. And if you’ve seen McCain and Levin speak on this bill then you know they will certainly try this again. What a disgrace. They should all be ashamed and embarrassed….and us too as we voted for these people.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 6:38 am on Wed, Dec 14, 2011.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Andrew... was the price too high for tutoring? Hummm... well my reasoning was that there are so few people that I am qualified for to help tutor and I can only help the beginning elementary level of intelligence since that is all I am capable of helping. Since you fit in that category of intelligence, you qualify. Since I can help so few, I must charge a higher price for those I do help or Ill go out of business...
    Since it is the Christmas season, Ill give you a discount... How about $80.00 per hour?

     
  • Andrew Liebich posted at 12:44 am on Wed, Dec 14, 2011.

    Andrew Liebich Posts: 2999

    Apparently Darrell suffers from delusions of grandeur as well...

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 6:25 pm on Tue, Dec 13, 2011.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Andrew stated... Why do you continually insist on being "sofa king idiotic?"

    Andrew has finally addressed me with respect an admiration... He gave me a wonderful
    name... Sofa King I.D.I.O.T....or in long form... sofa king “I”ntelligent “D”iligent “I”dea “O”rientated “T”eacher... Just for you Andrew , be happy to tutor you ( only $100.00 per hour) in whatever reasonable subject matter you would like to learn. But please understand Andrew... I will require you to be calm and relaxed while learning.

     
  • Mike Adams posted at 5:43 pm on Tue, Dec 13, 2011.

    Mike Adams Posts: 1439

    angrou..... Of course I know where you were. You run a little dumb a## ultra conservative conspiracy web site, based in Galt I believe. The "newsroom" you refer to is also known as the "kitchen" to your wife, who has to work full time because your "work" is either spent googling your name all day, looking at other conspiratorial websites, a lot of time on you tube of course, blogging, you know mindless waste of time stuff. Your big board is also known as the refrigerator. I think Costco has post-it notes on sale. You should go stock up.

    As to your ridiculous notion "Is H.R. 645 or the fact that the Army is hiring internment/resettlement specialists "wild speculation and gossip"?". Over the many years I've read or heard of hundreds of plausible stories like this, only to find out most of the speculation and rumor mongering comes from dinks like you, the sentinels of freedom. Or nuts as I call them.

    Keep stealing stories and passing them off as your own. Have you written anything, ever on your own? I supposed not. Now move your stuff, dinner's ready.

     
  • Andrew Liebich posted at 3:54 pm on Tue, Dec 13, 2011.

    Andrew Liebich Posts: 2999

    One more question Darrell... Why do you continually insist on being "sofa king idiotic?"

    Perhaps your time would be better spent on an issue you find "appropriate". I noticed you have taken quite an interest in the Galt WalMart issue. LOL

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 1:26 pm on Tue, Dec 13, 2011.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Andrew, to address your concern , Ill answer this directly and devote as much space to this topic as is appropriate...

    ********************************
    ********************************

    but my real concern is....

    *********************************************
    I hope this answers your question in full detail.
    Please feel feel to ask as many questions as you like Andrew.

     
  • Andrew Liebich posted at 11:47 am on Tue, Dec 13, 2011.

    Andrew Liebich Posts: 2999

    Darrell,
    Will your ability to remain willfully ignorant and mentally oblivious ever cease? .
    I know how difficult it is for you to answer a direct question but please try.

    Is H.R. 645 or the fact that the Army is hiring internment/resettlement specialists "wild speculation and gossip"? If so, How do you explain the fact that KBR is currently farming out subcontractors and 93 Senators recently voted on a bill to indefinately detain Americans?

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 10:54 am on Tue, Dec 13, 2011.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Andrew... have you ever considered that your ability to be outraged is controlled by your Chicken Little Syndrome? And... have you ever contemplated why you are so easily manipulated and influenced by wild speculation and gossip. What you consider fact is bizarre at times... You really need a vacation and relaxation to gain composure. Maybe you should focus on positive thought and energy during this Christmas season and regain some stability. Be at peace Andrew... you will be able to be more constructive and successful that way.

     
  • Andrew Liebich posted at 8:48 am on Tue, Dec 13, 2011.

    Andrew Liebich Posts: 2999

    Darrell,
    Have you ever considered that your "ability to remain calm" comes from your daily consumption of fluoride and aspartame? Of course you haven't.

    Does this make you calm Darrell?
    http://www.goarmy.com/careers-and-jobs/browse-career-and-job-categories/legal-and-law-enforcement/internment-resettlement-specialist.html

    How about this? http://static.infowars.com/2011/12/i/general/kbr-doc.pdf

     
  • Mike Adams posted at 6:41 am on Tue, Dec 13, 2011.

    Mike Adams Posts: 1439

    Surprise!! Another youtube video!!!
    Careful Darrell, you risk another 400 line screed of someone else's words.
    Even the insults are copied!

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 5:43 am on Tue, Dec 13, 2011.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Andrew...I am paying attention ... but I do not freak out and lose control of my ability to remain calm. I find that people who get "outraged" like you state do little to contribute to solve the problem. Relax Andrew,it is better to be concerned and take action rather than jump up and down throwing a tantrum. . You do realize that there is not much difference between Chicken Little and yourself. Don't you?

     
  • Andrew Liebich posted at 9:39 pm on Mon, Dec 12, 2011.

    Andrew Liebich Posts: 2999

    Darrell,
    Anyone who is not outraged is not paying attention. 93 Senators just passed a bill that legalizes the indefinate detainment, toture and killing of American citizens without due process. It's written right in the Senate bill. It's public record. Maybe you need to clear the cobwebs out of your head and open your eyes to see what's really happening.

    Despite reports that Obama is planning to veto the National Defense Authorization Act, Senator Carl Levin has revealed it was the administration itself that lobbied to remove language from the bill that would have protected American citizens from being detained indefinitely without trial.

    http://youtu.be/PLiKvSz_wX8

    WAKE-UP!!!

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 6:51 pm on Mon, Dec 12, 2011.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Andrew... I was joking ...hard to be miffed with humor in mind... you need to relax more and not take things so seriously... as far as Newt... I know who and what he is... nothing you say could possibly make a difference in my assessment... so please criticize away... no problem!

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 2:06 pm on Mon, Dec 12, 2011.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Andrew stated...Daniel, I don't believe it was Galileo that voted YES on S.1867... LOL

    That leaves room for doubt... I would have said I know for a fact that Galileo did not vote... Andrew evidently is not as certain as I am. Have more confidence Andrew... be brave!

     
  • Andrew Liebich posted at 9:48 am on Mon, Dec 12, 2011.

    Andrew Liebich Posts: 2999

    Daniel, I don't believe it was Galileo that voted YES on S.1867... LOL

     
  • daniel hutchins posted at 9:06 am on Mon, Dec 12, 2011.

    daniel hutchins Posts: 1339

    Mike: I guess you couldn't believe it either. "Prosecuted" was correct. Persecuted might be appropriate also, for his unusual beliefs which were not popular in the church.

    Galileo was literally placed on trial by the church. The charge was heresy, and the penalty would have been for the church to put his sole out of misery by burning him at the stake.

    Standard church dogma placed earth at the center of the heavens, and all the heavenly bodies revolved around the earth.

    Galileo had published a scientific description of the motion of the planets around the sun and the moon around the planets, contradiction to the church, therefore a heresy.

    Galileo survived the trial without losing his life, but he was confined to house arrest on the church grounds for the remainder of his life. I believe that he continued to communicate through his daughter Celeste * who I believe was a nun, a coincidence, as Celeste was a nun before the trial.

    [ * Celeste, as in celestial. I know you saw this, right? ]

    Galileo had named one of the moons of Jupiter "Europa" to flatter Europe and possibly the church.

    Galileo testified and basically twisted the meaning of his publication to cause the prosecutors to be confused to the contrary of the allegations.

     
  • Mike Adams posted at 6:03 am on Mon, Dec 12, 2011.

    Mike Adams Posts: 1439

    daniel: I think you mean "persecuted" and not "prosecuted ".

     
  • daniel hutchins posted at 8:01 pm on Sun, Dec 11, 2011.

    daniel hutchins Posts: 1339

    Mike,

    About those things which you think are goofy. They are serious, not goofy. Just because they are in the minority, does not mean that they are wrong.

    There is a fundamental defect of human nature to flow be in unison, like fish in a school that all swim in the same direction. If one fish decides that the school is swimming in the wrong direction, that fish is defective.

    In the 1600's, Galileo was prosecuted under charges that could have caused him to be burned at the stake, for his beliefs that earth is in circular orbit around the sun, not vice versa.

     
  • Mike Adams posted at 7:29 pm on Sun, Dec 11, 2011.

    Mike Adams Posts: 1439

    Obviously paranoia is setting in at the angrou camp.

    daniel this post angrou refers to occurred right as I bringing him out as a fraud. I went to a couple of his links but all they were was somebody saying the same thing angrou just said as though that gave angrou some level of credibility (it didn't). When I called him on it, he started out on this whole moron mike and sofa king idiot (that may have been his girlfriend Steve) and all the other terms he has grown so fond of.

    You do have goofy things you believe happened and I've got you to recite those on several occasions (that's great fun). Instead of playing along, angrou just gets more and more upset.

    Lately as we've all piled on him, he tries to direct us back or mis-direct us..."it's not about me!! (more rage coming out)"

    I suspect he is some sort of plant by law enforcement or shill. Who does he work for? What the ultimate objective is I'm not sure, but clearly I'm getting to him. Who else would spend several hours looking for a post from 2 or 3 months ago? I suspect he's about to blow it. His handlers need to get him back before he blows the whole investigation.
    So sad and depressed. And lonely (which is no surprise). What do you want to bet he records every phone call like Hank Hill's next door neighbor, Dale?

     
  • daniel hutchins posted at 6:58 pm on Sun, Dec 11, 2011.

    daniel hutchins Posts: 1339

    Andrew, You don't save those threads, do you? What's the point?

     
  • Mike Adams posted at 5:42 pm on Sun, Dec 11, 2011.

    Mike Adams Posts: 1439

    daniel: I don't ever recall seeing the creep here prior to the 9/11 stuff and I'm sure he wasn't on the old LNS site. He acts like he owns the place. He's the kind of guy that when he shows up to a party, everyone else wants to go home.

     
  • daniel hutchins posted at 5:22 pm on Sun, Dec 11, 2011.

    daniel hutchins Posts: 1339

    K Lee,

    I would expect S.1867 to win.
    If they don't get it this time, they might try to attach it to another bill that must win.

     
  • Andrew Liebich posted at 2:37 pm on Sun, Dec 11, 2011.

    Andrew Liebich Posts: 2999

    K Lee,

    Perhaps...but consider this...A presidential veto can vanish by a simple 2/3 majority.

    Considering the Senate already passed S.1867 by a 93-7 vote would 67% be that difficult?

    S.1867 + H.R. 645 = 1984

     
  • daniel hutchins posted at 2:10 pm on Sun, Dec 11, 2011.

    daniel hutchins Posts: 1339

    Mike: Were the 9/11 letters the first time that Andrew appeared in here?

     
  • Kim Lee posted at 11:30 am on Sun, Dec 11, 2011.

    Kim Lee Posts: 1798

    I believe there is a veto in the future of S.1867.

     
  • Andrew Liebich posted at 9:37 am on Sun, Dec 11, 2011.

    Andrew Liebich Posts: 2999

    Quitters never win and winners never quit but those who never win and never quit are idiots...

     
  • Mike Adams posted at 7:43 am on Sun, Dec 11, 2011.

    Mike Adams Posts: 1439

    Don't forget to add your picture to!! You're both sad and funny. Go over to Lodi Lake and run over some baby ducks. It'll make someone like you feel good. Maybe let the air out of some little kid's bike. More fun for you. Nudge an old lady with your car who's taking too long in the crosswalk, or better, wait 'till she's right in front of you and lay on your horn! The real world offers a utopia for oddballs like you to have fun for a low price.

    You don't have to let me get under your skin. It's a sign of weakness.

     
  • Mike Adams posted at 1:37 pm on Sat, Dec 10, 2011.

    Mike Adams Posts: 1439

    daniel: as to your post at 9:47 pm on Thu, Dec 8, 2011, This submission by angrou is not a letter. It's just information lifted in toto from some other author and he is attempting to pass it off as his own. That's called plagerism (regardless of how I spell it, creep). If angrou wants some credibility (and that's highly unlikely at this point) and respect, he should submit material that is his. He has tried to get around this in the past by just citing his source, like it made any difference. You at least submit material you have developed (although it is often wrong) and occasionally provide links.

    Angrou just popped (or more likely pooped) up here one day complaining about how some plane crashed into his favorite website: NORAD or something like that. He's so weird. If you don't immediately agree with him he starts calling you names. He even does it to you. I suppose it could be a big joke pulled off by some other real creep, but his writing style and vocabulary don't match anyone here or at the old LNS website or the Stockton Record.

    He deserves no respect because he gives none and I;m pretty sure no one here gives a s**t about what his opinion is about anything.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 6:52 pm on Fri, Dec 9, 2011.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Daniel, all I stated was”When I go to Thailand and stay, I experience a sense of freedom that I do not in USA... you some how interpret that means I am permanently moving?????
    So, when I go to Thailand and stay for 4 months, does that mean I cannot return? Bizarre

     
  • Andrew Liebich posted at 6:47 pm on Fri, Dec 9, 2011.

    Andrew Liebich Posts: 2999

    Daniel, The point is 93 Senators voted YES on S.1867.

    What's your point? Do you honestly think S.1867 somehow doesn't apply to you?

     
  • daniel hutchins posted at 6:08 pm on Fri, Dec 9, 2011.

    daniel hutchins Posts: 1339

    Darrell: The citation doesn't state that you are making a visit.

     
  • Mike Adams posted at 10:38 am on Fri, Dec 9, 2011.

    Mike Adams Posts: 1439

    Poor angrou.. So grouchy. Why don't you get a kitten. Or a gold fish. Maybe both. Just remember, the fish goes in the water, the kitten on your lap, not the other way around.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 10:20 am on Fri, Dec 9, 2011.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Daniel stated...If you abandon the battlefield for any reason other than your family or exigent circumstance, you lose

    Bizarre Daniel... I was simply making an observation that USA is not as free as it was based on my awareness through my experience in Thailand ( and China)

    That does not mean I give up... again... bizarre conclusion on your part.

     
  • daniel hutchins posted at 8:17 am on Fri, Dec 9, 2011.

    daniel hutchins Posts: 1339

    Darrell: "When I go to Thailand and stay, I experience a sense of freedom ..."

    If you abandon the battlefield for any reason other than your family or exigent circumstance, you lose.

    Last man standing on the battlefield wins.

    Fortunately, other people will remain to continue the cause after you leave.

     
  • daniel hutchins posted at 8:09 am on Fri, Dec 9, 2011.

    daniel hutchins Posts: 1339

    Andrew: An incomplete history, and the point is what?

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 5:48 am on Fri, Dec 9, 2011.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405


    Andrew Liebich posted at 11:54 pm on Thu, Dec 8, 2011.... Darrell,
    Believe it or not I do appreciate your understanding of this serious issue...

    Andrew... Actually, I appreciate your posts as I do Mike's and Daniel's when the name calling is deleted and respect for others thinking is given. I often appreciate everyone's passion and interest in topics. I think you in particular have stated many things that inspired me to think... I also appreciate your concern for our country and your desire to make things better.

    We do not have to agree on all things of course... but I respect your intent. I share your concern that people in power can abuse people's rights. When I go to Thailand and stay, I experience a sense of freedom that I do not in USA... that is sad commentary as to how United States has evolved in my mind.

     
  • daniel hutchins posted at 9:47 pm on Thu, Dec 8, 2011.

    daniel hutchins Posts: 1339

    Mike: Andrew's letter is very important because they can pick up people who they don't like, without giving any due process of law. I don't think there are any real terrorists abroad, and I am concerned by the possibility that they wish to pick up US persons. If this is correct, they will need to be picking up many thousands of like-minded people. If they decide that they only want to pick up the leaders, well, there are many thousands of those, still.

    I added below that the term "person" denotes that they will be picking up US Citizens.

    Andrew objected to this observation, and this is one of his weaknesses. He doesn't understand the true nature of the source of problem either. He's just reporting the symptom of the problem, and he denies any information which pertains to the source.

     
  • daniel hutchins posted at 9:39 pm on Thu, Dec 8, 2011.

    daniel hutchins Posts: 1339

    Mike, I'm glad that you stated your belief that McCain's aircraft fired the missile, because that was always my belief as well. However this is inconsistent with the statement that McCain's aircraft was struck by the missile. Something is missing from this story. It is well-accepted that McCain jumped out of his aircraft and crawled out on the nose to escape the fire. I wonder if the story was changed in any way to protect McCain.

    When I was in the navy, I saw high quality video of this fire, but I didn't learn that McCain was involved until years later. It was presented to me as a training film which illustrated numerous mistakes in damage control. Most notable, detergent was sprayed on top of a large area, then another hose team followed with water washing it away. Etc.

    Definitely, the flight deck of an aircraft carrier is one of the most dangerous places to be in the navy. On shore, I had to pay a quick visit to the adjacent carrier, and I was astonished at how small in width is the flight deck. Not much distance between port and starboard.

     
  • daniel hutchins posted at 9:32 pm on Thu, Dec 8, 2011.

    daniel hutchins Posts: 1339

    Mike: First a few confessions, which I hope aren't very bad.

    I am not an expert on aviation, because I worked in satellites, of which I have a very good knowledge of the overall systems in a general sense, and very specialized knowledge on my subsystem. However, because of my experience, I can be a fast learner, which is how I pick-up on information.
    I became very very very upset while I was working for an advanced tech satellite corp. We won a program that was to be launched on the Chinese Long March II, and I asked a question if this was not a security issue, the response that I got which described the only possible risk was exactly what happened.

    Instead of this nonsensical exploitation of my engineering skills, I elected to serve my country instead, and I joined the navy.

    So my limited knowledge on aviation is a result of my ability to identify air contacts, study of the missile systems aboard my vessel, and the nuclear reactor by the way, and training presentations from the gunners mates on the missiles that we were carrying. Hence my knowledge on a 10-pound payload, and a unique warhead that is designed to take out an air contact with intent to capture the pilot alive. In this training, the Chief Gunner Mate stated that it would be unlikely that the pilot would survive anyway, although that was the designed intention. This particular Chief Gunner was one who had previously engaged an Iranian vessel that was busted for sowing mines in the persian gulf. His ship only had SAM's, but he delivered a series of these missiles into the ship, and caused it to sink anyway. Probably the missiles' fuel was more dangerous than the warheads.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 9:10 pm on Thu, Dec 8, 2011.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Ms Bobin stated...For anyone to characterize the SPLC as a "radical far left group," has to be the height of ignorance... But I do consider the sources, Mr. Musto and Mr. Baumbach - not the two brightest bulbs on the tree

    Oh Ms Bobin... your bulb is antique, outdated, misinformed, completely burnt and dysfunctional.

    The SPLC is an obvious left wing group... Any group that thinks that Rand Paul is an extremist and the Catholic Family News is a hate group is so far left that communists are to the right of them...

    1. The Southern Poverty Law Center has included Rand Paul on a list of “extremist” candidates in the 2010 elections.
    2. “The Dirty Dozen”, have been “added to the Southern Poverty Law Center’s list of hate groups.” Catholic Family News is listed as one of the “Dirty Dozen”, along with the Remnant, the Fatima Crusader, Catholic Apologetics International, the Slaves of the Immaculate Heart in New Hampshire, Tradition in Action and others, including at least one sedevacantist organization. The Society of Saint Pius X was also lambasted, independently from the “Dirty Dozen” section, as a “Radical Powerhouse”

     
  • Mike Adams posted at 4:59 pm on Thu, Dec 8, 2011.

    Mike Adams Posts: 1439

    If it wasn't for the Southern Poverty Law Center, angrou would be out of information to plagerize. Here's one of his favorites:

    http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d112:s.1867:

    He thinks it's some sort of liberal think tank when really it's the Library of Congress.

    Also, did I say Ryder? I meant U-haul. Sorry.

     
  • Mike Adams posted at 4:47 pm on Thu, Dec 8, 2011.

    Mike Adams Posts: 1439

    This whole story, lifted by angrou (very nice work on the copy and paste commands by the way), is typical of the conspiratorial right. They put out the information after it's a done deal and then blame the "liberal media". Of course if angrou would submit original material, maybe the LNS wouldn't have to check for copyright info and permission to print someone elses words and a delay wouldn't have occurred. Maybe angrou really is just a shill in this, making wild claims from his bunker, and then finding out it's too late already. Comes off as a zealot, winning accolades from others (who he pretends to think like), and then then complain about suppression of free speech. Sounds like the OWS crowd doesn't it.

    "Guess again moron Mike...lol" where did he lift this from?
    And this is the best he can do? You get caught plagiarizing someone else's work and I'm a moron. What's sad is that you do this all the time. All the time. Why demonstrate you can think for yourself when someone (in your case everyone) else is better at it. Where does that put you in the hierarchy knowledgeable people. My guess is at the bottom. Where's the you tube video for that?

    Tsk...tsk...

     
  • Mike Adams posted at 10:01 am on Thu, Dec 8, 2011.

    Mike Adams Posts: 1439

    Daniel: Some good work on your part for a change. But I'm pretty sure McCain's aircraft launched the missle (mechanical error). The flight deck was crowded with aircraft because they were launching a strike. The "variant" I spoke of was the sub-type of aircraft like A-4S or A-4E, not it's name. Even though it is a ground attack aircraft no longer in the inventory, it is still used as an aggressor aircraft at top gun because it is so nimble.

    I believe McCain's father was commander of the Mediteranian fleet during the Vietnam war. I think the North Vietnam government offered to let McCain go, but like a good sailor he refused. And was beaten for it. Again and aganin.

    As for the creep, well not much can be done with him. By the way did you know that the creeps letter was lifted almost entirely from some dorky right-wing, antigovernment web site.

    Typical for a creep. Not enough intelligence to write something on his own, has to copy it it from someone else. This means the creep is either illiterate, lazy, or just a cheater. My guess is a lot of all three with no dignity.

     
  • Joanne Bobin posted at 9:31 am on Thu, Dec 8, 2011.

    Joanne Bobin Posts: 4488

    Mr. Baumbach wrote: "Gary... Ms Bobin accuses anyone quoting Fox as a right wing nut.... now she uses info from a radical far left group that you illustrated."

    For anyone to characterize the SPLC as a "radical far left group," has to be the height of ignorance. But I do consider the sources, Mr. Musto and Mr. Baumbach - not the two brightest bulbs on the tree.

     
  • daniel hutchins posted at 8:51 am on Thu, Dec 8, 2011.

    daniel hutchins Posts: 1339

    Mike: In regards to the McCain chain, I recall reading an article several years ago, but I can't exactly remember the details. Perhaps I am confusing John McCain himself for his relatives. This Senator McCain crashed two aircraft prior to his assignment to USS Forestall.

    His lineage includes a 4-star admiral in WW-II, and Vietnam, who advised the presidents involving Laos and Campbodia.

    I might be wrong, however. My detailed investigations to write these statements here show that McCain's aircraft was one that was struck by the Zuni.

     
  • daniel hutchins posted at 8:28 am on Thu, Dec 8, 2011.

    daniel hutchins Posts: 1339

    Mike Adams "I suppose any missle could be shot from the carrying aircraft at another aircraft and in that sense be called an "air to air" missle. I don't think the Zuni was primarily intended to be fired ..."

    I don't know if you are aware that an air-to-air missile only needs about a 10 pound warhead, or less. Even if a missile only generates chaff, it could take out an air target [with the intent of capturing a pilot alive from flight]. If you look at a picture of the Zuni, indeed there isn't much to it. As you can see, a single explosive, even if it did not detonate, was sufficient to ignite the fuel if nothing else, and result in the fire that ensued did result in plenty of detonations.

    I don't know if you are aware that the aircraft were "parked" on the flight deck of the carrier, and that LtCdr McCain was in his aircraft, when the missile was fired across the deck from McCain's aircraft. McCain escaped the fire which had engulfed the aft flight deck, by climbing out on the nose and jumped off the fueling probe.

    The final accident report states that a malfunction had occurred in the electrical circuitry which arms and fires the missiles.

    However, McCain is well-connected, so I doubt that if the accident was due to his negligence, that it would have been reported as such in the incident report.

     
  • Mike Adams posted at 6:16 am on Thu, Dec 8, 2011.

    Mike Adams Posts: 1439

    daniel: I suppose any missle could be shot from the carrying aircraft at another aircraft and in that sense be called an "air to air" missle. I don't think the Zuni was primarily intended to be fired at other aircraft except maybe against large formations where the chance of a hit was much higher.

    So who was McCain's close relative?

    It's curious that you mention a short circuit in the firiring circuit of the aircraft. I didn't mention it nor anyone else here. So if you are aware that a short circuit was the cause of the accidental firing, then I really doubt (and the Navy backs me up on this) you can hold McCain responsible. Maybe his crew chief, but again, the Navy didn't discipline anyone.

    As for Androu: CREEP ALERT! CREEP ALERT!
    The thought just makes my skin crawl.

    Andoru: Are you going to rent any Ryder trucks soon? Here's a tip:pay cash and use phony DL and insurance documents so they can't trace it back to you.

     
  • daniel hutchins posted at 4:13 am on Thu, Dec 8, 2011.

    daniel hutchins Posts: 1339

    Andrew: "Although you may not consider yourself a "person" I assure you S.1867 does..."

    For you, this is correct, but not for me.

    I would not report to people the definition of "person" if there were not a remedy for it. In the case of the LNS readership * , the condition is a state of mind, and the first step is acceptance, and I don't know if there are any such people here.

    I am aware that people do exist in Lodi who are not US persons, but they do not read the newspaper. In fact, they are wonderful friends of mine, and they don't even know that I goof around in the letters and comments. I would probably catch some ridiculous jokes if I were caught by my friends in here.

     
  • daniel hutchins posted at 4:07 am on Thu, Dec 8, 2011.

    daniel hutchins Posts: 1339

    Andrew,
    Once we agree to the content and passage of S. 1867, I don't see anything to debate in the letter. My comment about McCain was given to establish the lack of professional credibility of the author of the bill. The only thing about it was that Mike Adams opened his "mouth," so he needed to be put in his proper place.

     
  • Andrew Liebich posted at 12:20 am on Thu, Dec 8, 2011.

    Andrew Liebich Posts: 2999

    K Lee,
    As America continues it's slide into Banana Republic despotism...For those of us paying attention and showing the appropriate level of concern it can seem as if we are living in the twilight zone. Many remain willfully ignorant and mentally oblivious. Disturbing huh... Why do you think most people are sleepwalking through their lives?

    Darrell,
    "scary" is an understatement...Remember H.R.645? Here is a document originating from Halliburton subsidiary KBR that describes services KBR is looking to farm out to subcontractors...even more scary...

    http://static.infowars.com/2011/12/i/general/kbr-doc.pdf

    Mr.Musto,
    Freedom burns deep and strong in the hearts of real Americans and that’s something the SPLC can’t extinguish–no matter how many lists it makes. Take a look at the definitions of violent radicalization and homegrown terrorism as defined in Section 899A of H.R.1955... http://youtu.be/EbguIBIh1qQ

    Joanne Bobin said..."I don't pretend to know anything at all about this bill, and from the comments here, it sounds pretty scary, but doing a Google search on it brought up, in the first 30 references, only publications from extreme right-wing organizations, i.e., right-wing militias."

    Joanne,
    Hello? A Democrat and a Republican authored S.1867. 93 Senators voted YES! Escape the left/right paradigm for a second and READ THE BILL!

    Here is a link to Mr. Adam's favorite "conspiracy theory" website...The Library of Congress. http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d112:s.1867:

    Daniel, Seriously? How on earth is debating McCain's plane incident relevant? Although you may not consider yourself a "person" I assure you S.1867 does...

     
  • daniel hutchins posted at 7:48 pm on Wed, Dec 7, 2011.

    daniel hutchins Posts: 1339

    Mike: I don't know what goes on inside your head where you get your information from.

     
  • daniel hutchins posted at 7:43 pm on Wed, Dec 7, 2011.

    daniel hutchins Posts: 1339

    Mike: I am soooooo sorrrrry. It was a Zuni

    A Zuni can be used as an Air-to-air missile.

    So you can eat crow.

    It was an A-4 Skyhawk , but that is irrelevant also.

     
  • daniel hutchins posted at 7:39 pm on Wed, Dec 7, 2011.

    daniel hutchins Posts: 1339

    Mike: I was also not aware that it was important what kind of missile it was, except that it fired across the flight deck and caused some problems.

    So excuse me.

     
  • daniel hutchins posted at 7:10 pm on Wed, Dec 7, 2011.

    daniel hutchins Posts: 1339

    Mike. This is irrelevant, but was not a close relative of McCain in command of a vessel which suffered a serious mishap, at no detriment to the other McCain? I have my idea what it was, but I don't want to speak from my memory, because you might expect me to know every detail.

    In the case of the Forestall, do you have proof that an electrical circuit malfunction accidentally fired the missile across the flight deck?

     
  • daniel hutchins posted at 7:05 pm on Wed, Dec 7, 2011.

    daniel hutchins Posts: 1339

    Not an air-to-air? Shrike AGM-45. OK, but I think that would be worse if it had detonated. I thought air-to-air because there wasn't much of a detonation.

    Wasn't his fault? Being from the navy myself, I hold the commanding officer responsible for whatever the vessel does, whether the Captain is on the bridge of the ship or not at the time of a mishap.

    This was McCain's aircraft, and was he not responsible for his own aircraft? Can you say that somebody else was responsible for it, and they just gave it to him?

    For all the aircraft on board an aircraft carrier, is nobody responsible for them?

    If McCain was not responsible for his own aircraft, then who was responsible for it? Nobody?

    That's where I get my information from.

     
  • Mike Adams posted at 6:37 pm on Wed, Dec 7, 2011.

    Mike Adams Posts: 1439

    Geezz daniel, get your facts straigtht! A missle accidentally launched off his plane, an A-4 ( I'm not sure of the variant) but it wasn't an "air to air" missle. It was a Shrike or something like that. I don't remember exactly. A-4's generally don't carry IR guided or radar homing air to air missles. He had nothing to do with the fire on board the Forrestal. A missle malfunctioned and launched. It didn't arm. If it hadn't hit another aircraft loaded like his, it probably would have gone overboard, end of story.

    I honestly don't know where you get these crazy things from and how the fact that he was involved in a major naval disaster which wasn't his fault is even mentioned by you as though it would lend some sort of gravitas to what ever point your trying to make (incorrectly by the way).

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 4:55 pm on Wed, Dec 7, 2011.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Gary... Ms Bobin accuses anyone quoting Fox as a right wing nut.... now she uses info from a radical far left group that you illustrated... I wonder if that earns Ms Bobin a special label that she so enthusiastically attaches to people she disagrees with....

     
  • Gary Musto posted at 4:04 pm on Wed, Dec 7, 2011.

    Gary Musto Posts: 506

    The Southern Poverty Law Center is a far left organization that smear anyone or any group who does not believe in their pro-immigration agenda whether it be legal or illegal immigration. They also believe in "social justice" and advocate multiculturalism.

    Some of their targets are Glen Beck, Ron Paul, Judge Napoltiano, "FAIR", California Coalition for Immigration Reform, Traditionalist Catholics,and any group who does not support the homosexual agenda are labeled as a "hate group."

    They have been criticized by some civil rights organizations for "keeping dossiers on people solely because of their political or religious views."

    With such a rise in the number of their version of "hate groups" you would have to believe that President Obama's life is in constant danger or has been threatened more than his predecessors.

    Homeland Security Committee findings by US Secret Service Director, Mark Sullivan, while testifying before congress, "dismissed published reports that the level of death threats against President Obama are four times greater than typical threat levels against recent presidents-claiming the current volume of threats is comparable to that under G W Bush or Bill Clinton."

     
  • Joanne Bobin posted at 1:13 pm on Wed, Dec 7, 2011.

    Joanne Bobin Posts: 4488

    I don't pretend to know anything at all about this bill, and from the comments here, it sounds pretty scary, but doing a Google search on it brought up, in the first 30 references, only publications from extreme right-wing organizations, i.e., right-wing militias.

    Interesting bit of information in the November 21, issue of Newsweek in an article entitled, "My Life as a White Supremacist," it was reported that:

    "Since President Obama’s election, the number of right-wing extremist groups—a term that covers a broad array of dissidents ranging from white supremacists to antigovernment militias—has mushroomed from 149 to 824, according to the Southern Poverty Law Center, the Alabama-based civil-rights group"

    On the surface, that fact is much more frightening. Anyone interested in reading this article, which is frightening in itself:

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2011/11/20/my-life-as-white-supremacist.html

     
  • daniel hutchins posted at 11:43 am on Wed, Dec 7, 2011.

    daniel hutchins Posts: 1339

    McCain's aircraft was involved in the USS Forestal fire during the Vietnam War, by far the worst aircraft carrier disaster, and one of the worst fires aboard a US Vessel in American war history. Over 100 US service members lost their lives in the fire to save the ship.

    McCain's aircraft fired an Air-to-air missile across the flight deck.

    Film of the USS Forestal fire is used today in US Navy firefighting training.

     
  • daniel hutchins posted at 11:40 am on Wed, Dec 7, 2011.

    daniel hutchins Posts: 1339

    K Lee: Thank you.

     
  • Kim Lee posted at 9:56 am on Wed, Dec 7, 2011.

    Kim Lee Posts: 1798

    Daniel: A "yes" vote on the Udall amendment would have removed language in SB 1867 that allows the federal government to hold Americans indefinitely without charge.


     
  • Kim Lee posted at 9:52 am on Wed, Dec 7, 2011.

    Kim Lee Posts: 1798

    Can you believe that McCain could have been our president? Now that's scary, as he would support such a police state.

    Rand Paul speaks on SB 1867. McCain's responses do not make any sense.

    Rand Paul speaks on what makes you a suspect
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=malCdqGAvVQ

    "No Right To A Trial' Made Possible By John McCain
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=6LeDgxlLrIQ

    Senator Rand Paul questions John McCain on S. 1867
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPRAxJ5NUZE


     
  • daniel hutchins posted at 9:45 am on Wed, Dec 7, 2011.

    daniel hutchins Posts: 1339

    ALL: Look up "person" in any law dictionary. It is a corporation, and it can be a US Citizen.

    The term "person" does not include natural people.

    Below, Darrell quoted Section 1031 which applies to "persons."

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 9:29 am on Wed, Dec 7, 2011.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    The direction our legislators are going in passing bills without much analysis is scary...
    I wonder if Ms Pelosi, as she did in the Health care bill, state that they must pass this bill in order to see what is in it.... it appears that many politicians are doing as Pelosi advises, both on the right and left.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 9:26 am on Wed, Dec 7, 2011.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    SEC. 1031. AFFIRMATION OF AUTHORITY OF THE ARMED FORCES OF THE UNITED STATES TO DETAIN COVERED PERSONS PURSUANT TO THE AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF MILITARY FORCE.

    (a) In General- Congress affirms that the authority of the President to use all necessary and appropriate force pursuant to the Authorization for Use of Military Force (Public Law 107-40) includes the authority for the Armed Forces of the United States to detain covered persons (as defined in subsection (b)) pending disposition under the law of war.

    (b) Covered Persons- A covered person under this section is any person as follows:
    (1) A person who planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored those responsible for those attacks.
    (2) A person who was a part of or substantially supported al-Qaeda, the Taliban, or associated forces that are engaged in hostilities against the United States or its coalition partners, including any person who has committed a belligerent act or has directly supported such hostilities in aid of such enemy forces.

     
  • Kim Lee posted at 9:11 am on Wed, Dec 7, 2011.

    Kim Lee Posts: 1798

    I see that McCain is at it again. What are McCain and this Levin character thinking? Maybe their position has gone to their heads. Out of touch with reality? This is the United States of America for Pete's sake! It's so disturbing that these men drafted and support this SB 1867, and that so many actually voted in favor of it! It's hard to believe that McCain was a presidential candidate just a couple of years ago. Incredible! I hope President Obama follows through with a veto. This is insane! Police state? The senators who voted in favor of SB 1867 should never hold elected office again.

     
  • daniel hutchins posted at 7:20 pm on Tue, Dec 6, 2011.

    daniel hutchins Posts: 1339

    Andrew: Thank you for reporting on this topic.

    What was the intended Udall amendment?

     
  • daniel hutchins posted at 7:17 pm on Tue, Dec 6, 2011.

    daniel hutchins Posts: 1339

    Andrew: As a lemming train, all of the US Citizens will stand silent, even when their neighbor is harvested into the planned process.

    The US Citizens agree with their US Senators which they continuously re-elect on a 6-year periodic cycle. To wit, I cannot count the number of times that Dianne Feinstein and Barbara Boxer have been re-elected.

     
  • Andrew Liebich posted at 8:41 am on Tue, Dec 6, 2011.

    Andrew Liebich Posts: 2999

    Apparently the LNS doesn't realize they already voted (93-7) in favor of S.1867. I submitted this letter a week ago...

     

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