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Keynesan economics do not work

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Posted: Saturday, May 5, 2012 12:00 am | Updated: 2:36 pm, Mon May 7, 2012.

Mr. Lucas' fixation on one economist, John M. Keynes, as if he is the know-all of all things financial, is getting embarrassing. Keynes, who died in 1946, never saw what his theories on economics would bring in real life.

Most liberals have theories based on the fantasies of the utopian world they wish to live in — existing only in their minds. It can never exist in the real world, because human nature cannot be put in a neat box and followed by every human. No one is exactly the same, and as hard as the despotic tyrants have tried, humans cannot be forced to live the way the state wishes willingly. As individuals, we will rebel, which is why individualism is such a threat to authoritarian governments.

So how have Mr. Keynes' theories of governments spending money they don't have artificially increased employment and economic prosperity? A few examples: the Great Depression of the 1930s. Mr. Morgenthau Jr.'s — Roosevelt's Treasure Secretary — evaluation of FDR's economic plan said, "We have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever spent before, and it does not work ... We have never made good on our promises ... I say after eight years of this Administration we have just as much unemployment as when we started ... and an enormous debt to boot!"

Amity Shales, author of "The Forgotten Man: A New History of the Great Depression," stated the TVA dealt a mortal blow to a private employer who wanted to electrify the South, and did nothing to improve the systemic unemployment in the country.

President Nixon, the man who gave us the EPA, long lines at gas stations and fixing prices in the private sector — a la Stalin — once proclaimed that, "We are all Keynesians now."

Last but not least, Jimmy Carter on steroids, our own Obama. Enough said?

Ron Portal

Lodi

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180 comments:

  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 7:44 pm on Tue, May 15, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Klee... "Mitt "is a term in mythology that refers to a leader who rules with fairness and honor...

     
  • Kim Lee posted at 5:31 pm on Tue, May 15, 2012.

    Kim Lee Posts: 1798

    Is "Mitt" short for something?

     
  • Robert Chapman posted at 12:30 pm on Sun, May 13, 2012.

    Bob Chapman Posts: 997

    Mr. Maple, I was fortunate enough to sell my company to a large corporate conglomerate almost 10 years ago. If a member of my management team that had the autonomy to hire and did so without conducting a thorough background check, they would find themselves looking for another job. The wages were fair and based on experience, benefits were costly but more than fair. I needed quality employees, not "cheap" ones. When I have work done at the ranch, I eliminate the contractors that use illegal workers even though it will cost more. I sympathize with your situation because your competetion steals work using low cost illegal employees.

     
  • Robert Chapman posted at 12:20 pm on Sun, May 13, 2012.

    Bob Chapman Posts: 997

    Careful Darrell, with a magnicifent statue like that you will attact freeloading pigeons and they will trash your property.

     
  • Patrick W Maple posted at 11:49 am on Sun, May 13, 2012.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1805

    Borrowed info: "The Honda Odyssey minivan ranked number three behind its little sister, the Honda CR-V and the Nissan Altima, while the Subaru Outback, Honda Pilot, Volkswagen Jetta, Nissan Rogue, Honda Accord, Honda Civic and Nissan Sentra rounded out the list."

    Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2012/05/12/survey-finds-moms-dont-really-want-minivans/?intcmp=features#ixzz1ujXG6279

    WHAT???? NO GOVERNMENT MADE CARS????? We loaned them $80 Trillion dollars and they can't even get ONE into the top 10. Oh that's right Toyota sells more cars than they do in the US...Honda too...Ford too (I forgot we DIDN"T loan THEM ANY money). Where is good ol' JMK and his good ol' economic model when we need him...probably driving a Chevy Volt.

     
  • Patrick W Maple posted at 12:18 pm on Sat, May 12, 2012.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1805

    mrl: STUPID

     
  • Patrick W Maple posted at 12:18 pm on Sat, May 12, 2012.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1805

    Gary: Great post!!! I will follow that this his own words:

    BO: "Economics?? We don' need no stiiinnkkgg eecoonomics!!!"

    "Budget...whas that?? We don' need no stinking buuddggeeetttt"

    "Its everything BUT the economics...Stupid"

    "Smoked refers, drank booze, snorted crank, blow, punked in HS, didn't attend classes...." His words, his book, his biography...BO

    "Last month I was against gay marriage, this month I am for it, last week I was against it...this week I am for it...yesterday I was against it...today I am for it...tomorrow..." "The polls say what??... Wait until next week then we will announce our renouncement of our proposed announcement of the renouncement that we announced before we announced"

    Now THIS is "leading from behind"

    Empty suit, doofus, doper, prompted tele, greenbagger, lawless dictionary, clueless coolness, catch phrase, Hollywood hoopster who rollerskates on lies. BO.

     
  • Joe Baxter posted at 8:58 am on Sat, May 12, 2012.

    Joe Baxter Posts: 1843

    NONSENSE III
    The Liberal Lie
    Maybe Not so Genius

     
  • John Lucas posted at 1:30 am on Sat, May 12, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    FINALLY! A real debate talking about this stuff. Good job Gary and I mean that sincerely. Now that it seems you want to talk about this using real numbers and reasonable arguments without talking points I think we can have a reasonable discussion in which we both might learn something.

    First the numbers. Sometimes we get different numbers from different sources. It does not mean either one of us is lying it just means sometimes our sources may be messing with the numbers to make a political point and we take it as Gospel. So that is something we have to sort out.

    When George Bush took off office the the National debt was 5.6 trillion dollars. when he left it was 10.6 trillion dollars. He put over 5 trillion on the credit card.
    http://www.skymachines.com/US-National-Debt-Per-Capita-Percent-of-GDP-and-by-Presidental-Term.htm


    The 1984 GDP growth was even better than 6.8% it was 7.4%

    Reagan actually only put 1.75 trillion on the debt but in todays dollars that would be over 4 trillion dollars. $1 = $2.93 in 1980 and $1.94 in 1988

    Lets talk about Jimmy Carter. Three things hit Carter unlike hit any other President at the same time

    The first thing is that our industrial plant was getting old and antiquated. The countries after WW II especially Germany and Japan built there industries up from scratch with newer and better technologies. We had lost our competitive edge.

    The second thing was the price of oil tripled from $10 to $32 a barrel

    The third thing was Volker and the Fed in their determination to stifle inflation kept interest rates at historic highs

    Jesus could not have done anything about this.

    Reagan and Clinton both were very lucky in that oil prices were in the $15 to $20 dollar range. They were both lucky that they came in with much pent up demand from a recession and both were the beneficiaries of relatively low interest rates. While both Reagan and Clinton were beneficiaries of massive increases in productivity because of technology Clinton greatly benefited from the Dot Com boom.

    The difference between the two was that Clinton was a fiscal conservative. He was a Keynesian who believed in balancing the budget. He raised taxes and during the upturn of the economy he did everything he could to start paying off the national debt. He was the first President since Ike to balance a budget. He had 300,000 less federal employees at the end of his administration

    Ronald Reagan was a Supply Side theory believer who said that if you cut taxes for the rich they will create jobs and the resulting increased revenues will balance the budget. It never happened. The truth is he did exactly what people like Mr Chapman are screaming about Obama doing today except that Reagan did them in the upturn of the economy. Deficit spending is by definition stimulus spending. He did that every year he was in office whether the economy is going good or bad.

    In the 50 years of Keynesian economics the biggest middle class in the world was built and the longest period of time without the threat of a financial meltdown handed Ronald Reagan a national debt of under a trillion dollars. What did George Bush leave Obama after 28 years(interrupted by Clinton) of supply side theory of economics?

    Gary, I hope we can have discussions with facts and ideas. Your post because it contained them commanded my respect. These types of discussions I like the best though I admit arguments containing ridicule and hyperbole have there own rewards and there are some who think that I am good at it.

     
  • Robert Chapman posted at 8:10 pm on Fri, May 11, 2012.

    Bob Chapman Posts: 997

    Finally took a break from driving to rest and "catch up" on LNS blogs.
    Darrell, Darrell, Darrell....You have obviously garnered the wrong information about our great POTUS. Simply log on to barackobama.com, mediamatters.org or moveon.org and read truthful unbiased facts and accomplishments of Barack the Great. These sites are the best that George Soros' money can produce. I am sure you will be astounded, dazed and awed by the information these sites provide. And you know, King George and Barack the Great wouldn't feed us bad iinformation. Would they?

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 7:26 pm on Fri, May 11, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Obama has got to be the worst president in history ...he gave us more government control and a future economic headaches for decades to come... we need him out or our ecomomy is doomed...

    ObamaCare is the most intrusive expansion of government in the history of the United States. ObamaCare seeks to control one-sixth of the US economy and dictate our health care access. ObamaCare will bankrupt the United States and it must be REPEALED...as well as Obama.

     
  • Gary Musto posted at 5:38 pm on Fri, May 11, 2012.

    Gary Musto Posts: 506

    Democrat President Jimmy Carter left office with 10.6% unemployment, 24% inflation rate, prime interest rate of 21.5%, poverty rate of 15.2% and real median family income falling by 10%, pretty good for your typical "Keynesian" President.

    When President Reagan left office he had created over 16.5 million jobs, (he didn't need to add those Obama like "saved" jobs), and a 5.5% unemployment rate.

    In 1984, the GDP rate of 6.8% was the highest in 50 years.

    During his eight years in office, President Reagan did add 1.9 trillion dollars to the National Debt.

    President Obama, has already added close to 4 trillion dollars to the National Debt in just 3 years and two months, more than Bush did in 8.

    He may have created, (with those magical "saved" jobs being counted) close to 3.4 million jobs and still has over 8% unemployment, adding those that have stopped looking for work, it's closer to 16%.

    He is also on track to establish a whopping 2.2% GDP, not bad for an "Keynesian" guru.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 4:23 pm on Fri, May 11, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Joe, I did not know that you were a highly educated and successful businessman like Mr Chapman or Mr Maple. I understand because of their exalted position and superior intellect that they did not have to get mired in the mud of coming up with counter arguments or facts when someone like a poor dumb truck driver like myself comes up with facts and put them in an argument. That would be so beneath their station. I am glad you have shown me that you are on that level that I can only dream about. It must be nice to never have to think.

     
  • Joe Baxter posted at 4:00 pm on Fri, May 11, 2012.

    Joe Baxter Posts: 1843

    NONSENSE II - The Sequel
    Genius, pure Genius

     
  • John Lucas posted at 3:27 pm on Fri, May 11, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    I am glad to see that you are so happy that people are that desperate people will work for you for less money. It just serves them right, right? I will just repeat what I said to Gary:


    I do not know what this has to do with why trickle down economics works better than Keynesian economics which is what you Pat and our highly educated and very successful business man Robert Chapman celebrates. It is sad that Obama inherited and economy so devastated by years of supply side(also called trickle down,voodoo,my back is yellow) economics. It is also sad that 78% of the 10 trillion dollar debt Obama inherited was put there by so-called financial conservative Republicans. This is close to 8 trillion dollars in stimulus spending by Reagan and the Bushes but that was ok because the vast majority of it went to the "job creators". That worked so well that in the 8 years of the Bush Jr the net loss of private sector jobs 653,000 and Bush Jr. only put 5 trillion on the credit card. In Europe they have been trying yours, Pats and the highly educated and successful businessman Mr. Chapmans ideas to the test and it has resulted in massive unemployment and a downward spiral of their economies.
    Meanwhile here in the states we tried a modest stimulus, are in a modest recovery, have had 25 straight months of private sector job growth and Obama has already created more private sector jobs than Bush did in 8 years of office. Try to get around those facts.
    How about them apples

     
  • John Lucas posted at 3:21 pm on Fri, May 11, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    I do not know what this has to do with why trickle down economics works better than Keynesian economics which is what you Pat and our highly educated and very successful business man Robert Chapman celebrates. It is sad that Obama inherited and economy so devastated by years of supply side(also called trickle down,voodoo,my back is yellow) economics. It is also sad that 78% of the 10 trillion dollar debt Obama inherited was put there by so-called financial conservative Republicans. This is close to 8 trillion dollars in stimulus spending by Reagan and the Bushes but that was ok because the vast majority of it went to the "job creators". That worked so well that in the 8 years of the Bush Jr the net loss of private sector jobs 653,000 and Bush Jr. only put 5 trillion on the credit card. In Europe they have been trying yours, Pats and the highly educated and successful businessman Mr. Chapmans ideas to the test and it has resulted in massive unemployment and a downward spiral of their economies.
    Meanwhile here in the states we tried a modest stimulus, are in a modest recovery, have had 25 straight months of private sector job growth and Obama has already created more private sector jobs than Bush did in 8 years of office. Try to get around those facts.
    How about them apples


     
  • Patrick W Maple posted at 2:13 pm on Fri, May 11, 2012.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1805

    Gary: GREAT line: Looks like it's time to serve up another heaping helping of "Keynesian Stew" since the last portions didn't go as far as Obama and his faithful sheep expected.

    This is good news for the greedy little business owners like myself and Mr Chapman!!! We can now hire people at half price (maybe we could have a price war!!) You know like we have been doing for the past 40 years!! Where's the K-man when you need him???

     
  • Gary Musto posted at 12:42 pm on Fri, May 11, 2012.

    Gary Musto Posts: 506

    Jobless benefits will end this weekend for 230,000 unemployed American workers.

    The GAO reported that 2 million people exhausted their unemployment benefits as of early 2010, with an additional 3.5 million unemployed workers losing their benefits in late 2010 and early 2011.

    Looks like it's time to serve up another heaping helping of "Keynesian Stew" since the last portions didn't go as far as Obama and his faithful sheep expected.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 10:16 am on Fri, May 11, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    If you find my comments so meaningless why do you comment on them at all? Do you notice that I ignore the vast majority of your comments. There is a reason for that

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 9:41 am on Fri, May 11, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Personal attack?... how are you defining personal attack?

    I simply was making a comment about your perception of reality. You often state others are stupid and you are truth... If I were to say that I find your opinions meaningless, would that be a personal attack?

    I ask because I do not find your comments interesting, serious, comical or amusing.
    Just meaningless...that in my view is not a personal attack.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 7:01 pm on Thu, May 10, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Pat, thank you for the brevity of your response to my arguments. The word, "STUPID", so describes the essence of your argument and the state of the mind that produced it.

     
  • Patrick W Maple posted at 6:26 pm on Thu, May 10, 2012.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1805

    mrl: STUPID

     
  • John Lucas posted at 5:08 pm on Thu, May 10, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Pat, thank you for the brevity of your response to my arguments. The word, "BLANK", so describes the essence of your argument and the state of the mind that produced it.

     
  • Patrick W Maple posted at 4:12 pm on Thu, May 10, 2012.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1805

    mrl: BLANK

     
  • John Lucas posted at 2:29 pm on Thu, May 10, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Mr Baumbach said:

    Mr Lucas stated...Pat, Just because you believe the world is flat does not make it so.
    That is right Pat... just because YOU "think it" does not make it so. But... if Mr Lucasof the "World According to Lucas" thinks its true..then there is absolute certainty.
    You have to keep in mind that Mr Lucas is to the far left of Obama
    ( according to him)... and what ever he says is fact... No matter...
    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    Darrell, I have to admit I find your posts interesting and amusing in a clinical sort of way. Do you ever engage is something other than a personal attack? I have read many of your posts and I simply cannot find one that engages is clash of ideas. What have you got against ideas? Did an idea abuse you in some way in your childhood? Maybe you should seek professional help. I like the clash of different ideas as it is a method to seeking the truth. I would love to have that clash with you but you do not seem to have any ideas except in the smearing the character of someone you dislike.

    PS The words one writes is the window into one's soul

     
  • Joe Baxter posted at 2:21 pm on Thu, May 10, 2012.

    Joe Baxter Posts: 1843

    Mr. Baumbach, please excuse the typo on your name. I will be more careful in the future. Apparently you can't even pay a liberal a compliment without making them whine.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 1:11 pm on Thu, May 10, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    sorry about this one. accidentally hit the post comment button before finished

     
  • John Lucas posted at 1:09 pm on Thu, May 10, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Mr. Baxter said:
    Mr. Baumback, don't you find it refreshiing when people title their posts?
    "NONSENSE" Genius, pure genius.
    ------------------------------------------------
    Mr Baxter as is always the case brings to the table his brilliant, analytical, may I say "Genius", mind in his attack on the arguments I made in my post. He like Mr Maple, Mr Baumbach ( notice the spelling Mr Baxter) and our own very highly educated and successful businessman , Mr Chapman has brought his keen mind to the answering each of the arguments that I made.

    These men are a force of nature in the field of debate. The way they answer each argument with a devastating answer, so powerful in the use of the english language and backed up by data that is so clear and to the point that there simple is no answer or reply. I hang my truck driver mind in shame for even being on the same field of battle as these titans of the intellect.
    Yes, Mr Baxter you are in great company

     
  • John Lucas posted at 12:56 pm on Thu, May 10, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Mr. Baxter said:

    Mr. Baumback, don't you find it refreshiing when people title their posts?
    "NONSENSE" Genius, pure genius.
    ------------------------------------------------
    Mr Baxter as is always the brings to the table his brilliant analytical, may I say "Genius", mind in his attack on the arguments I made in my post. He like Mr Maple, Mr Baumbach ( notice the spelling Mr Baxter) our own very Highly educated successful businessman , Mr Chapman

     
  • John Lucas posted at 12:44 pm on Thu, May 10, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Darrell, I have to admit I find your posts interesting and amusing in a clinical sort of way. Do you ever engage is something other than a personal attack? I have read many of your posts and I simply cannot find one that engages is clash of ideas. What have you got against ideas? Did an idea abuse you in some way in your childhood? Maybe you should seek professional help. I like the clash of different ideas as it is a method to seeking the truth. I would love to have that clash with you but you do not seem to have any ideas except in the smearing the character of someone you dislike.

    PS The words one writes is the window into one's soul

     
  • John Lucas posted at 12:01 pm on Thu, May 10, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Brilliant! :) Of course that is not the history of it but I must say very entertaining

     
  • John Lucas posted at 11:52 am on Thu, May 10, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    I find it interesting and amusing the posts in answer to the arguments I made to Mr Chapman’s assertion that “KENYSIAN ECONOMICS is financial suicide”. Mr Maple, Mr Baumbach and Mr Baxter did not address the following arguments I made

    If a country did not use Keynesian economics the vast majority of its population would be in poverty and in a continual state of financial crisis.

    That from the 1930’s through 1980 by using Keynesian economics the United States created the largest middle class and had the longest period of prosperity without a major financial crisis in world history

    In 1980 under Ronald Reagan we switched from Keynesian economics to Supply Side economics otherwise know as the “my back is yellow” theory of economics where in the history of the world this theory has never created a substantial middle class and is in the process of destroying ours

    That from 1980 to 2008 the debt increased from 930 billion inherited under Ronald Reagan to over 10 trillion dollar inherited by Mr Obama and that 78% of this debt was done under so-called fiscal conservative Conservative Republican Presidents.

    That Mr Chapmans ideas of what a economy needs to do in a economic downturn has been tried many times and has always led to disastrous result such as the Great Depression and recent events in Europe.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    I find your answers to my arguments as brilliant and insightful as the writings of that highly educated and very successful businessman, Mr Chapman

     
  • Patrick W Maple posted at 10:05 am on Thu, May 10, 2012.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1805

    It was flat then...why not now? How did they figure it out?

    Answer: Because no one ever fell off!!!

     
  • Joe Baxter posted at 9:38 am on Thu, May 10, 2012.

    Joe Baxter Posts: 1843

    Mr. Baumback, don't you find it refreshiing when people title their posts?
    "NONSENSE" Genius, pure genius.

     
  • Jeff Tillett posted at 8:37 am on Thu, May 10, 2012.

    Jeff Tillett Posts: 541

    Darrell, the number of companies I have run is greater than or equal to the number of state, national or world economies that you have run. Oh, and I have hired, trained, and fired employees. I worked in retail management through out college (and especially during my hiatus). Try and find a new he-doesn't-know-what-he's talking-about meme.

    Robert, no one else views losing half the value, a drop second only to that of 1929, as a "fluctuation". Of note, it took 25 years to get back to the pre-1929-drop level on the DJIA. This time it only took 3+ years. Oh, the humanity!

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 7:40 am on Thu, May 10, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Mr Lucas stated...Pat, Just because you believe the world is flat does not make it so.

    That is right Pat... just because YOU "think it" does not make it so. But... if Mr Lucasof the "World According to Lucas" thinks its true..then there is absolute certainty.

    You have to keep in mind that Mr Lucas is to the far left of Obama
    ( according to him)... and what ever he says is fact... No matter...

     
  • Eric Barrow posted at 7:24 am on Thu, May 10, 2012.

    Eric Barrow Posts: 1460

    Still holding on to your gold? I would have thought a leader of industry and economic wizard such as yourself would have sold last year when gold peaked o well you snooze you lose

     
  • John Lucas posted at 5:23 am on Thu, May 10, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Pat, Just because you believe the world is flat does not make it so.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 10:08 pm on Wed, May 9, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Joe, we missed your exquisite use of the english language. Your artistry with your dialog give us all lessons with what rational discourse should be all about. You are a credit to Conservative Republicans everywhere

     
  • Joe Baxter posted at 8:02 pm on Wed, May 9, 2012.

    Joe Baxter Posts: 1843

    Barney Frank, now there's a model Democrat. Him and Maxine Waters are the epitome of liberal drooling knuckle draggers.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 7:38 pm on Wed, May 9, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Nonsense

    In the 1930‘s
    We instituted a highly progressive tax system.
    
We regulated the financial industry

    We instituted labor laws trying to level the playing field between labor and management
    
We instituted Keynesian Economics

    Is there a country that has a substantial middle class that did not institute the above four policies?
    Mr Chapman, Mr Maple and Mr Baumbach could not come up with one. The truth is that there are small very oil rich countries that have done it but they are so awash with petrol dollars that it does not really matter what sort of economic system they have.

    What this means is that if you did not embrace Keynesian Economics you do not have a substantial middle class and you live in a country that has the very rich, a small middle class and the vast portion of you population is living in perpetual poverty. WHAT THIS MEANS IS THAT IF YOU ARE IN THE VAST MAJORITY OF THE POOR A FINANCIAL CRISIS IS ALL YOU KNOW. IT IS PART OF THE SYSTEM AND WILL GO ON FOREVER.

    From the 1930’s till 1980 our economic system was based on Keynesian economic theory. In those years we created the largest middle class and had the longest period of prosperity without a major financial crisis in world history. With the election of Ronald Reagan we switched to the supply-side theory of economics sometimes referred to as voodoo economics, trickle down or the my back is yellow theory of economics. It is really thousands of years old and it means if you funnel most of the cash to the very rich the economy will take off and everyone will benefit. In the history
    of the world it has never once led to the creation of a substantial middle class and has always led to financial crises and meltdown. That is what happened in 1929 and 2008. A financial crisis happened about every 10 years from 1870 till 1929 in the heyday of the my back is yellow economic theory

    Mr Chapman lays the current financial crisis at the feet of Keynesian Economics saying that stimulus spending part of it is the cause of our current natural debt. He is right that the debt is a major problem but how did we get into this situation?

    The biggest myth in America is that Conservative Republicans are Financial Conservatives. From Carter to Bush Jr we put over 9 trillion dollars on the credit card. 78% of the debt was put on by flagrantly extravagant Conservative Republican Presidents. Putting it on the credit card is called stimulus spending. These so-called Financial Conservatives said if we cut taxes the economy will generate more revenue and there will be no deficit. They cut taxes every chance they got, the vast majority of it going to the super rich and said if we do this these so-called job creators will create tons of jobs. How did that work out? it is true they created jobs but unfortunately they were in other countries. It is a very good idea if not imperative for stimulus spending in a downturn but these so-called Financial Conservatives did it in the upturns also. Not one of them made any effort to balance the budget.



    The only exception in the for 28 years before Obama was Bill Clinton. He like other financially conservative Keynesians such as Carter, Ford, Nixon, Johnson, Ike, Truman all made efforts to pay the debt off in the upturns. Ike, Truman, and Clinton had balanced budgets.


    
It is ironic that if Reagan or the Bushes ran a business the way they ran the government they would be fired but Bill Clinton came through with flying colors.

    What is horrific about these so-called financial conservatives stimulus spending is that the money went to their pals and we did not invest in one major infrastructure project much less fix our deteriorating infrastructure. They are not financial conservatives but financial vultures and Mitt Romney is a perfect representative of who they are.

    Mr Chapman said what a country needs to do in a downturn is the following:

    No matter how you spin it, be it personal, business or government economy, it is really pretty simple. Spend more than you take in and you go broke. Our government spends way more than it takes in, then points fingers at everyone else except themselves for the problem. Infusing money into the economy (Kenysian principle) after borrowing it, with the inability to pay it back, is financial suicide. Even borders on financial fraud

    ------------------------------------------------------------------
    It did not seem to bother Mr Chapman when the people he voted for were picking people pockets. I have to agree with him what Reagan and the Bushes did borders on financial fraud

    That being the case, we have ample examples in history of what happens when his policies are followed in a downturn in the economy. The unemployment rate went from 4.3 in 1928 to 24.9 in 1933 and led to the biggest financial meltdown in the history of our country following exactly the policies he celebrates. In Europe they elected conservatives who enacted policies Mr Chapman celebrates. Their economies almost immediately started a downward spiral and most of these countries are now voting out these idiot conservatives as fast as they can. The United States voted for a modest stimulus and unlike our European counterparts we are in a modest upturn. We are treading water now giving the economy time to recover and go back up as it always does. It is then we have a decision to make.

    Do we elect flagrantly extravagant financially incompetent Conservative Republicans who with their Ryan plan will bankrupt our country with massive tax cuts to the super rich that will explode the national debt, destroy the middle class and the social safety net? Or do we elect real financial conservatives who embrace Keynesian economics and policies that created the largest middle class in the world and one of the longest periods of financial stability in world history while leaving Ronald Reagan a National Debt of 930 billion. It is a credit to the lies and misrepresentations of the corporate conservative media outlets such as Fox News that there is even a question.

     
  • Patrick W Maple posted at 7:11 pm on Wed, May 9, 2012.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1805

    Hey Bob!! I declare you to be right! KE NEVER worked! NEVER will!

     
  • Robert Chapman posted at 3:59 pm on Wed, May 9, 2012.

    Bob Chapman Posts: 997

    This thread has been a blast. Since nobody can come up with a single country that uses/used Kenysian style economics that is not in financial distress, I think the conclusion is self evident. KENYSIAN ECONOMICS is financial suicide. Since there are still people who believe man never walked on the moon and the government is hiding UFO's and extraterrestial bodies, I am not surprised there are still people that believe Kenysian economics is the cure for world financial woes.
    May the Fence Post Be With You, Mr. Maple.
    Hammer down, west bound.

     
  • Patrick W Maple posted at 3:33 pm on Wed, May 9, 2012.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1805

    mrb: Let's go back to Carter and the 1977 Community Reinvestment Act...final results...millions of homes "sold" (given away) to people who could not afford them because of Barney Frank and Chris Dodd. Where are those homes today? Unoccupied and being sold to others as rentals. Where are Dodd and Frank...headed home (million dollar mansions).

     
  • Patrick W Maple posted at 3:22 pm on Wed, May 9, 2012.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1805

    mrl: Once again: STUPID The RRA?...you mean the Bail-out Boondoggle.

    mrb: I love how people like you can only bash those who risked their livelihood, home and reputation in order to go into business for themselves....of which 20% fail...meaning that 80% succeed (like Mr Chapman, Baumbach, Kinderman and many others on this site) . Are you jealous? It takes blals...are your's missing?

    My question to you who risk only getting to the PO to get your welfare checks is this:

    You want the "rich" to pay more their "fair share" yet you have only enough juevos to challenge and bad mouth those small businesses who hire you, your friends and others. Why?

    NOW, you want the public to bail out the USPS...afraid you won't get your checks?

     
  • Robert Chapman posted at 3:07 pm on Wed, May 9, 2012.

    Bob Chapman Posts: 997

    Mr. Barrow, funny you should mention that, I do have a balanced part of my portfolio in gold. I was hoping you could come up with some "inside knowledge" would help me grow my portfolio. What do you think of the Facebook IPO as an investment? Google and Apple have done very well for me in spite of the fact that I am somewhat leary of the tech stocks.

     
  • Robert Chapman posted at 2:42 pm on Wed, May 9, 2012.

    Bob Chapman Posts: 997

    Sorry teach, that doesn't wash. DJIA have fluctuated, at times drastically, ever since it was established. With both Republican AND Democratic presidents. The worse the market did during Bush's tenure was right after 9-11.
    One has to wonder how Mr. Soetoro would have done to negate the financial impact that the worst terrorist attack in American history brought. Impose ridiculous taxes on the rich and put everyone on else on the government payroll and welfare?

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 2:14 pm on Wed, May 9, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Actually Eric, no one in the planet is as you described so why the sarcasm? The point is that people with real experience in matters of running companies have insight. They deal in making things happen rather than university professors and people like yourself that do not have the advantage of experience and can only theorize. If you met with hundreds of these people and discussed what makes things work and what makes it difficult to be successful, they would have have similar experiences.

    As far as Krugman, I doubt that any business ( except in in academia) in private sector would hire him even as their janitor. He is all theory and would be useless to most businesses. He has spend his life writing books and theorizing how things work...

     
  • Eric Barrow posted at 2:00 pm on Wed, May 9, 2012.

    Eric Barrow Posts: 1460

    Let’s see February of 2009 stock market is below 8000 and slipping further and then something changed what was it O that’s right the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 was passed by the House with 177 Republicans voted against it then passed the house with only 3 republicans voting in favor Susan Collins, Olympia Snowe, and Arlen Specter. Collins barely won re-election Snowe is retiring stating partisan politics as her reason and as you well know Spector switched parties. The Dow is now almost 5000 points higher. My suggestion for you Mr. Chapman is buy gold.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 1:59 pm on Wed, May 9, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Robert, your experience is similar to mine. I noticed that Eric and " According to the World of Lucas" constantly form a premise based on statistics and theory and expect the debate to center on their perceived reality.

    People who actually make the economy turn ( people who run various businesses) and are involved in the process can draw much better conclusions whose trade is to intellectualize about "what works". Eric and "The world according to Lucas" think they are substantiating their theories with evidence provided by people who provide theories.
    Can you imagine a corporation hiring a CEO based on their theories rather than proven results. Eric and Mr Lucas appear to be experts at citing theory... no real world experience at all.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 1:47 pm on Wed, May 9, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405


    Mr Tillett, I am curious. How many companies have you owned. How many employees have you hired, trained and fired or have you spent your entire life in the educational system first as a student and then as a teacher?

     
  • Jeff Tillett posted at 1:08 pm on Wed, May 9, 2012.

    Jeff Tillett Posts: 541

    You mean right before the bottom dropped out and it lost about half its value in around 9 months? Right before BO instilled his "socialist" policies in May of 2008?

     
  • Robert Chapman posted at 12:48 pm on Wed, May 9, 2012.

    Bob Chapman Posts: 997

    The DJIA is almost exactly the same as it was this time in 2008. Let me recall now, oh yeah, I remember, Bush was President.
    Evidently Mr. Barrow is not only an economist but he is a talented market analyst as well. Very impressive skills.
    Tell us, Mr. Barrow, just how much are you invested and what kind of returns are you realizing from your market knowledge? Perhaps I could benefit from your expertise. Where is the best place to put money these days for maximum returns? I would appreciate any advice you can impart.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 12:22 pm on Wed, May 9, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Eric we cannot keep having these conversations. Are you really suggesting that a Conservative Republican should question his own personal motives? Do you not know that Mr Chapman is a highly educated and very successful businessman? Did you not know that Pat Maple has 8 to 10 employees whose very lives and the lives of their families would cease to exist except for his magnificent benevolence? Did you not know that Darrell Baumbach does not need to watch CNN when he hires a new employee, a feat that defies human comprehension. I insist you immediately apologize and never let this happen again.

     
  • Eric Barrow posted at 11:37 am on Wed, May 9, 2012.

    Eric Barrow Posts: 1460

    Down 47 points I would think a great economist such as yourself would understand a little profit taking, your biggest fan darrell will be so disapointed. By the way thats up 4000 points or 50 % since Obama took office. You should ask yourself why you need the economic news to be negative.

     
  • Patrick W Maple posted at 10:46 am on Wed, May 9, 2012.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1805

    mrb: I see the CEO confidence is skyrocketing in the market.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 10:44 am on Wed, May 9, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    well said

     
  • Eric Barrow posted at 10:32 am on Wed, May 9, 2012.

    Eric Barrow Posts: 1460

    DB I'm sure that Pat and Robert are the end all of discussion on the state of the economy. I am sure that if Pat and Robert say the economy is in the toilet all the rest of the business leader's ,in the country opinions should be tossed out along with all of the economist maybe the major news agencies should just give Pat and Robert a call to find out how things are going. Maybe you Pat and Robert could give Geithner a call and explain the situation to him or maybe the three of you along with Ron could head over to Woodrow Wilson School of Public and International Affairs and explain to Krugmen why his noble winning work is incorrect or maybe today he's teaching at the school of Economics and International Affairs at the at Princeton University.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 10:02 am on Wed, May 9, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Again you amaze us with your flawless use of the english language and the impeccable marshaling of your arguments in refuting every one of Mr Barrows arguments in your unrelenting pursuit of "sane rational discourse". I think I will send your posts to your alma mater so your craftsmanship in the art of "sane rational argument" can get the recognition it so richly deserves. Well Done Sir!!!!

    PS Sorry I forgot to mention what a highly educated and successful businessman you are. I know it is such an important part of the argument. Do not worry, Sir. I will not let it happen again

     
  • John Lucas posted at 9:33 am on Wed, May 9, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Mr, Chapman, you amaze us again with your magnificent display of what you have described as "sane rational discourse". I cannot top what I said earlier so I will repeat it again as it shows how you completely destroyed every one one of Mr Barrow's puny insignificant arguments. After all like you so brilliant stated in your answer that was so to the point of Mr Barrows arguments "they most likely couldn't even run a lemonade stand and make a profit". Simply a brilliant argument that can only come from a highly educated and very successful business man such as yourself.

    Here is what I said earlier:

    It is simply amazing how Mr. Chapman starts with a thesis and builds his argument line by line using nothing but facts combined with an obvious superior intellect weaving a magnificent argument that when his marvelous piece of writing is finished his thesis cannot be denied. What makes this so admirable is his disdain for cheap personal attacks or name calling. Yes, we are privileged here at LNS to have in our company such a highly educated man and successful businessman who can bestow on us these brilliant, mind blowing examples of sane rational discourse. Bravo, Mr. Chapman. Well Done

     
  • John Lucas posted at 9:11 am on Wed, May 9, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Eric, Are not Mr Baumbach's remarks so typical of the Conservative Republican debate style? You present information gleaned from various places to support your argument. Mr. Baumbach had no answer or was to lazy to come up with arguments of his own or get information from somewhere else. He went right into personal attack mode questioning whether you have the life experience to even be making an argument. HE HAS NO ANSWER TO THE ARGUMENTS YOU ARE MAKING SO HE IS TRYING TO CHANGE THE ARGUMENT.
    Do not fall for this. Keep doing what you are doing. You are doing a great job. You make a thesis, back it up with facts and make a very good argument. You are doing what our highly educated and very successful business man Mr Chapman means by the statement "sane and rational argument".

     
  • Robert Chapman posted at 8:55 am on Wed, May 9, 2012.

    Bob Chapman Posts: 997

    Darrell, meadiamatters.org and barackobama.com are the best sources for completely unbiased information. You just know that Georgie and Barry wouldn't steer us wrong. These two sites are my "go to" for rock solid truth. Want to buy a radiator for a 1966 VW?

     
  • Robert Chapman posted at 8:50 am on Wed, May 9, 2012.

    Bob Chapman Posts: 997

    Darrell, I am always amused by the deep insight some people have about economics and running a successful business when they most likely couldn't even run a lemonade stand and make a profit. Those that can do, those that can't criticize. Envy would be my best guess.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 8:36 am on Wed, May 9, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Pat... just make sure before you make any more business decisions that you consult reports and statistics from Bloomburg and others Eric recommends. You wouldn't want to make an uninformed decision that might adversely effect your business...

    We all know that what is reported in his sources are accurate and objective. No question. In fact, I make it a habit of reading all the major papers before I consider hiring an employee... especially CNN...don't you?

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 8:27 am on Wed, May 9, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Mr Borrow stated...From Bloomberg Business Report -- Confidence among U.S. chief executive officers in the first quarter climbed to the highest level in almost three years, a private survey showed.
    From CNN Money -- Mortgage backer Fannie Mae reported the best quarterly results since the housing bubble burst five years ago


    Statistics, reports, propaganda... all seems significant and interesting to Mr Barrow... yet real world business experience that Pat, Robert and others have running "real" businesses are meaningless in drawing economic opinions.

    Mr Barrow, I am curious. What experience in the business world to you have that would give you insight and wisdom to interpret the statistics and reports you read. What actual experience do you have in dealing with government regulations and mandates that make it difficult to make a business work?
    I cannot imagine that anyone who has ever run a business would actually think like you ( unless you are in “ the World According to Lucas”

    If you do run private sector businesses, I would be very interested if your businesses are dependent on government contracts or not.

     
  • Eric Barrow posted at 7:53 am on Wed, May 9, 2012.

    Eric Barrow Posts: 1460

    mrm.. Not offended at all just had better things to do. I also found my info on the web but I could not find the info you posted except on some unreliable extremist sites. That is why I asked for clarification and for you to point out an economic indicator that shows this country heading in the wrong direction, something you have failed to do, I mean just give me one. Here are a few more news stories out today…
    From Bloomberg Business Report -- Confidence among U.S. chief executive officers in the first quarter climbed to the highest level in almost three years, a private survey showed.
    From CNN Money -- Mortgage backer Fannie Mae reported the best quarterly results since the housing bubble burst five years ago, saying it did not need additional billions in tax funds for the quarter and that it believes losses on past mortgages peaked at the end of last year.
    The company also reported just enough profit in the three months ended March 31 to cover its latest payment to the Treasury Department, and predicted better profits ahead.

    Also from CNN -- The U.S. government will make a $15.1 billion profit from the bailout of insurer AIG, according to a congressional watchdog panel's report.
    The Government Accountability Office said Monday that the size of the profit will be determined by the long-term health of American International Group, the timing of the Treasury's sale in the stock and AIG's share price.
    The GAO said that AIG was showing signs in 2011 that the company was becoming "stable and profitable," with net income of $18.5 billion for the

    Some good news wouldn’t you say mrm

     
  • Eric Barrow posted at 7:52 am on Wed, May 9, 2012.

    Eric Barrow Posts: 1460

    I guess there are none as deaf as those that won't listen. That is what John has been talking about you simply make these remarkable statements without substantiation and we are expected to believe them. Do the other people in your life just take everything you say as true and correct? Is it because you get together with all you extremist friends tell you tales to each other pat each other on the back and rejoice in how wise you all are. Talk about the blind leading the blind.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 1:41 am on Wed, May 9, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Robert Chapman posts:

    Gary, some people just like to agitate and pick fights. I find that people who rely on attacks and intimidation are usually incapable of sane rational discourse.I have zero tolerance for people that exhibit such childish behavior. Eventually everyone else will tire of them and they will have to agitate themselves......as it should be


    New York Times? Are you sure Mr. Musto? If so, they probably quoted someone from Fox News. Don't you know it isn't politically correct to expose the truth about the "facts & figures" released by Obama's agencies? It makes LIBERALS heads explode and might distort their view through their rose colored glasses.

    Pat, the liberal can see all right, but it's those pesky rose colored glasses Obama makes them wear that only allows them to see the liberal propaganda and skewed statistics. After all, the "mighty annointed" one is trying to get re-elected so all must look rosy. If it isn't, he just uses his magic powers to make it (appear) so.
May the Fence Post Be With You.
Looks like Obama's favorite Republican got handed his hat today. About time.
    -------------------------------------------------------

    After reading our highly educated and very successful Mr Chapman’s first quote above about sane rational discourse I put the other two up so we can all marvel at his shinning example of how a highly educated very successful businessman through his writing achieves his goal of sane rational discourse.

    I was not to be disappointed. It is simply amazing how he starts with a thesis and builds his argument line by line using nothing but facts combined with an obvious superior intellect weaving a magnificent argument that when his marvelous piece of writing is finished his thesis cannot be denied. What makes this so admirable is his disdain for cheap personal attacks or name calling. Yes, we are privileged here at LNS to have in our company such a highly educated man and successful businessman who can bestow on us these brilliant, mind blowing examples of sane rational discourse. Bravo, Mr. Chapman. Well Done

     
  • Robert Chapman posted at 7:44 pm on Tue, May 8, 2012.

    Bob Chapman Posts: 997

    Pat, the liberal can see all right, but it's those pesky rose colored glasses Obama makes them wear that only allows them to see the liberal propaganda and skewed statistics. After all, the "mighty annointed" one is trying to get re-elected so all must look rosy. If it isn't, he just uses his magic powers to make it (appear) so.
    May the Fence Post Be With You.
    Looks like Obama's favorite Republican got handed his hat today. About time.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 7:14 pm on Tue, May 8, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Pat, I think Eric gets satire.

     
  • Patrick W Maple posted at 5:08 pm on Tue, May 8, 2012.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1805

    mrb: Were you offended?

     
  • Patrick W Maple posted at 5:08 pm on Tue, May 8, 2012.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1805

    mrb: There are none so blind as those who will not see. Take a look at my posts again...the information is all over them and the web. FIRST..open your eyes.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 4:52 pm on Tue, May 8, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Sorry, Eric I thought you were replying to Mr Chapman. Actually the same idea applies to Pat. He is aways reminding us of what a great businessman he is. Facts and Data does not mean much to him either.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 2:23 pm on Tue, May 8, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Yes I have given money the Obama campaign. I have have also given money to Sherrod Brown of Ohio, Elizabeth Warren, Rod Zerban (running against Paul Ryan)among others.
    You say he is running on your tax dollars did not Bush also run on your tax dollars and even more so? Under Bush taxes were higher. Are you not paying less in payroll taxes on you employees?

     
  • John Lucas posted at 2:07 pm on Tue, May 8, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Eric, again I have to explain to you the rules. Mr Chapman is a very well educated and very successful businessman as he has told us on so may occasions. You have to understand what he means by how he puts it , "sane rational discourse". It is because, as he like to remind us so often, that he is so well educated and such a successful businessman that his pronouncements must be treated like edicts from most high such as when Moses gave us the ten Commandments. It is not that the obviously most superior Mr. Chapman disdains facts or data he just does not feel he needs them back up his edicts. Backing up ones ideas with posts with facts or data is for peons like you. I think you should apologize to the most exalted Mr Chapman for thinking he should have to back up his posts with facts or data. Clearly you do to understand what the most exalted Mr Chapman means by "sane ration discourse". I hope we do not have to have this discussion again.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 1:34 pm on Tue, May 8, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Pat, I will type real slow in the hopes you might understand. The chart represents the actual number of actual jobs created or destroyed in every month since Dec 2007. It is not about the unemployment rate or how many people have given up looking for jobs.
    By the way here is a few of fun facts you might enjoy.

    The United States lost 653,000 private-sector jobs on Bush's watch.
    The United States gained 1,700,000 public sector jobs on Bush's watch
    Total gain approx 1,150,000 total jobs, all the gain government jobs

    So far under Obama
    The United States lost 607,000 government jobs since Obama taking office
    The United States, with the private sector jobs created last month, has more private sector jobs now than when Obama took office
    The United States so far under Obama has created more net private sector jobs than under the 8 years of the Bush watch.

    How about them apples?


     
  • Eric Barrow posted at 1:26 pm on Tue, May 8, 2012.

    Eric Barrow Posts: 1460

    mrm you like to through a lot of numbers around but you don't seem willing to back them up with any data also you were unwilling to name any economic indicators that show the economy headed in the wrong direction it seems you are the one with the smoke and mirror BS

     
  • Patrick W Maple posted at 12:15 pm on Tue, May 8, 2012.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1805

    mrl, mrb, mrh, msb: I hope you ALL clicked on the little red "donate" button...BO's going to need your money. He already has my tax dollars to run on.
    Just incase you missed it: http://www.barackobama.com/jobsrecord

     
  • Patrick W Maple posted at 12:07 pm on Tue, May 8, 2012.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1805

    WOW mrb: "http://www.barackobama.com/jobsrecord" ??? WHAT a CROCK!!! (Can I say that Rich??) Did you think we wouldn't check??

    NOWHERE does the BO propaganda machine mention the 3.9 million who left the workforce (add that number back in to the unemployed and see wha the percentage is then), the underemployed at 22%, the ACTUAL number of people out LOOKING (23MILLION) for work (even part-time), the million plus of self-employed people who have had to go out of business. Which by the way have taken up some of those "created jobs" . Smoke and mirrors BO!! Smoke and mirrors BS.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 10:53 am on Tue, May 8, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730


    To get an visual idea on the job growth and loss history, the graph on the web site listed is very good. It shows the job growth or loss for each month since a year before Obama took office.

    http://www.barackobama.com/jobsrecord

    It is from the Obama campaign but has passed muster from all the fact checking organizations

     
  • John Lucas posted at 10:46 am on Tue, May 8, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Eric, you rock. Thank you for taking the time to dig into the weeds on this stuff. Good work, good job.

     
  • Eric Barrow posted at 9:56 am on Tue, May 8, 2012.

    Eric Barrow Posts: 1460

    Thanks for the heads-up on the article Gary I would suggest others read it it’s not near as dire as the few lines you cherry picked. The article states…
    Rather than prodding employment growth, the government is actually providing a drag on the economy. Government spending has fallen for six straight quarters as Recovery Act funds have been exhausted and state and local governments have struggled with tax revenue shortfalls. Accordingly, the public sector has been shedding workers relatively consistently since the recovery officially began in mid-2009, with the exception of a brief spike of temporary hiring during the decennial census. Last month, governments eliminated 15,000 jobs. Private companies added 130,000 jobs over all,…
    Isn’t this what the right wanted less government? The article goes on to state that despite the slow pace of job growth the economy looks healthy….
    Today the United States economy is producing more goods and services than it did when the recession officially began in December 2007, but with about five million fewer workers. Because employers have learned how to produce more with fewer workers, there is also debate about what exactly “healthy” employment would look like in the current economy, and whether it makes sense to use the data from before the financial crisis as a benchmark.
    “We have to reserve judgment until we get the final revisions on these numbers,” said John Ryding, chief economist at RDQ Economics. “I’m not trying to be Pollyannaish, but there is enough in this report to suggest that the economy isn’t necessarily slowing.”
    Like I originally stated it appears that the application of Keynesian economics has helped us get out of the worst recession in US history

     
  • John Lucas posted at 9:34 am on Tue, May 8, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Yes this figure is not good. We only grew 114000 actual private sector jobs last month and that is anemic also. The 25 month straight months of actual job growth in the private sector is good but the numbers could be better. You are right ,Gary, we need to go back to the policies that created Bush's last year in office when we lost close to 800,.000 jobs in one month and 4,400,000 jobs in a year. Change that with your misleading statistics.

     
  • Robert Chapman posted at 9:24 am on Tue, May 8, 2012.

    Bob Chapman Posts: 997

    Mr. Maple, have you noticed the eerie silence to the question "name ONE country that espouses Kenysian style economics that is not in a financial crises"?

     
  • Robert Chapman posted at 9:19 am on Tue, May 8, 2012.

    Bob Chapman Posts: 997

    New York Times? Are you sure Mr. Musto? If so, they probably quoted someone from Fox News. Don't you know it isn't politically correct to expose the truth about the "facts & figures" released by Obama's agencies? It makes LIBERALS heads explode and might distort their view through their rose colored glasses.

     
  • Gary Musto posted at 7:32 am on Tue, May 8, 2012.

    Gary Musto Posts: 506

    NT Times Business, reports that an estimated 342,000 Americans dropped out of the job market altogether in April. That is why the unemployment rate fell to 8.1% from 8.2% not because more workers found jobs, but because so many people left the workforce.

    The share of men taking part in the labor force fell in April to 70%, the lowest figure since the Labor Department started recording unemployment nformation back in 1948.


     
  • Eric Barrow posted at 7:08 am on Tue, May 8, 2012.

    Eric Barrow Posts: 1460

    mrm you seem to have some statistics that are unavailable to the rest of us could you kindly show where your figures come from so those of us, using the Bureu of Labor Statistic’s official figures on unemployment and other economic indicators, can be enlightened as to the real state of the economy. I have been looking at graphs provided by different organization government and non-government and it appears that the economy while still weak is trending in a positive direction on all fronts; consumer spending, consumer confidence, GDP, unemployment, bank earnings, business earnings, etc. etc. but it appears from your post that those numbers and graphs are wrong. Please let me know where I can find your official economic figures that tell a different story. Thanks for the help.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 2:14 am on Tue, May 8, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    In the ending of a post I made at 2:50 pm on Mon, May 7, 2012 I said:

    We wonder why the highly educated and very successful businessman, Mr. Chapman, would so misrepresent what happened blaming Keynesian ideas for what is so clearly the result of ideas he celebrates. We would never doubt his honor. Where does he get his information? I can tell from his posts that he watches Fox News but......Oh, I see
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    In answer to this post Mr Chapman stated:

    Careful there Mr. Maple, you will be accused of posting only what you heard on Fox News like I was. The irony is that most of the information I posted came from atCNN, aptly nicknamed Communist News Network and one of the most LIBERAL media outlets th exists.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I am happy that Mr Chapman cleared up where he got information he used in his misrepresentation of blaming Keynesian ideas for what is so clearly the result of ideas he celebrates, for as I said we would never doubt his honor.

    What is interesting is how he answered his obvious misrepresentation of blaming Keynesian ideas for what is so clearly the result of ideas he celebrates. He did what all Conservative Republicans and especially Fox News does. Like a deer caught in the headlights he changed the subject from his obvious misrepresentation of the facts to where he got the facts. He then said, “CNN, aptly nicknamed Communist News Network and one of the most LIBERAL media outlets th exists.” He retreated to tired old Conservative Republican, Fox News talking points or as some would say, “Hot Air”.

    In an earlier post Mr chapman said about me:

    Gary, some people just like to agitate and pick fights. I find that people who rely on attacks and intimidation are usually incapable of sane rational discourse. I have zero tolerance for people that exhibit such childish behavior. Eventually everyone else will tire of them and they will have to agitate themselves......as it should be
    ------------------------------------------------------------------
    Interesting

     
  • Jeff Tillett posted at 9:22 pm on Mon, May 7, 2012.

    Jeff Tillett Posts: 541

    Yes, and gravity is a thoery. What's your point?

     
  • Robert Chapman posted at 6:33 pm on Mon, May 7, 2012.

    Bob Chapman Posts: 997

    "Scientific studies have suggested", by golly there is an undisputable source of information. Sounds like a ant-acid commercial. Come on Mr. Tillett, I would expect an educator of our children to do better than that.

     
  • Robert Chapman posted at 6:29 pm on Mon, May 7, 2012.

    Bob Chapman Posts: 997

    Careful there Mr. Maple, you will be accused of posting only what you heard on Fox News like I was. The irony is that most of the information I posted came from CNN, aptly nicknamed Communist News Network and one of the most LIBERAL media outlets that exists.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 6:28 pm on Mon, May 7, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Maybe. I think the real problem is that Conservative Republicanism is an Ideology. I remember in the lead up to the Iraq war a Bush official said, “We create our own reality”. That was the telling remark. Look at their media. Fox News cares nothing for facts and will say anything for they are not in the business of seeking the truth but are in the business of propaganda. Like Der Sturmer for the N-zi’s and Pravda for the Communists, Fox News is willing to say anything to help the people who own them create a reality. Der Sturmer hated Jews, the communists hated capitalists and Fox News hates Liberalism. Liberalism is not an ideology. We are not in the business of creating a reality we are in the business of studying it. While a Conservative Republican will ignore history, deny facts to keep the false reality he has been taught in his head, a Liberal cannot do that for his or her passion is to know reality. In the end we will win and the passion to know reality is the real underlying strength of the country we love.

     
  • Patrick W Maple posted at 5:18 pm on Mon, May 7, 2012.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1805

    Robert Chapman says

    Pat, the REAL question should be, name a country that has espoused Kenysian style economics that is not in a financial crisis. There are NONE. Many have failed or on the verge of financial failure such as Ireland, Italy, Greece, Spain, Portugal, Hungary and even United States.

    Bob: You left out France, South Africa, Botswana, Trinidad (home of Robinson Crusoe) bedrock of the Robinson Crusoe economic model: As stolen from someone else:

    "A Robinson Crusoe economy is a simple framework to study trade in economics. It assumes an economy with one consumer, one producer and two goods. The title "Robinson Crusoe" is a reference to the novel of the same name authored by Daniel Defoe in 1719. The story is that of a castaway who spent 28 years on an uninhabited island near Trinidad, thus appropriate to describe an uncomplicated economic structure with only one actor.

    As a concept in economics, it assumes importance due to its ability to simplify the complexities of the real world. The implicit assumption is that the study of a one agent economy will provide useful insights into the functioning of a real world economy with many economic agents. This article pertains to the study of consumer behaviour, producer behaviour and equilibrium as a part of microeconomics. In other fields of economics, the Robinson Crusoe economy framework is used for essentially the same thing" Hmmmmm 28 years? KISS.

     
  • Patrick W Maple posted at 5:10 pm on Mon, May 7, 2012.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1805

    mrb: The unemployment rate is hedged by the fact that 3.9 million people have LEFT the workforce. Add to that number the 1 million or so people who were self employed and are no longer in business you now have a job loss in this country of nearly 5 million people. 23 million are unemployed, on welfare, unemployment, have gone back to school or are doing something else. The unemployment has gone down because people are no longer looking for work. If 100 people have a job the rate unemployed rate is: 0, However, if 5 die, 10 drop out and 10 disappear or quit...your unemployed work force rate is STILL: ZERO.

    The misery index is NOT down...it does NOT include the HUGE number of underemployed people, those who have LEFT the workforce, or just plain closed up shop (self employed). It includes ONLY the people looking for jobs. The un/underemployed index under Bush never reached 9%. Under BO it has never fallen below 15%. Neither includes those who have dropped out. The numbers put out by this admin is nothing more than liberallollypoping.

     
  • Robert Chapman posted at 5:08 pm on Mon, May 7, 2012.

    Bob Chapman Posts: 997

    You might also be interested in American debt vs. GDP ratio. It is 93.2 up 31% since the current administration took office. Of course the mainstream media wouldn't dream of publishing this telling statistic.

     
  • Robert Chapman posted at 4:38 pm on Mon, May 7, 2012.

    Bob Chapman Posts: 997

    Mr. Barrow, if you honestly believe the actual unemployment rate is a 8.1 then you are one of the people who swallow the skewed date from the BLS. People who haven't looked for work in the last four weeks don't count, people who have been unemployed for over a year (and millions fit this profile) and the ones who have just plain given up finding a job are ignored. Add these people in and the figures are closer to 12% and some analysts claim that is a conservative percentage. People who can only find part time jobs are technically employed don't count either. Check out the BLS (Bureau of Labor Statistics) website for more information on how the published figures are determined.

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 4:36 pm on Mon, May 7, 2012.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1340

    John
    You are aware that conservatives consistently misinterpret inteligene for liberalism. If anything presented with logic or facts exceeds the 20 word ceiling and can't be turned into a laugh line is determined to be liberal. This is the dilema we find ourselves in.

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 4:26 pm on Mon, May 7, 2012.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1340

    Thanks Eric
    The facts are plain the economy is getting better despite the devastation it suffered and republican obstructions to keep it depressed for political purposes.So you have to wonder why there would be any consideration to elect Romney and other conservatives that plan only to continue the same policies on steroids .I lnow the talk of misery indexes is supposed to be a reflection on Obama but it really reflects how we still suffer under the Bush legacy. Most reasons for feeling we are going in the wrong direction can be laid on congress and its failures.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 3:32 pm on Mon, May 7, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    There you go with that Liberal fact stuff again, Eric. I do not know you cannot get it through your head that if it is not on Fox News it is not a fact. Shame on you.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 3:27 pm on Mon, May 7, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    LOL!! "Did someone pass gas in the ballroom?" I put you on notice that I am stealing that line for future use

     
  • Joe Baxter posted at 3:26 pm on Mon, May 7, 2012.

    Joe Baxter Posts: 1843

    Evidently the LNS monitors didn't like your posts Steve,er uh, I mean Ms McSpoon.

     
  • Eric Barrow posted at 3:20 pm on Mon, May 7, 2012.

    Eric Barrow Posts: 1460

    Mrm the unemployment rate is 8.1 down from 9.1 in April of last year, the misery index is actually 10.85 down from over 13 a year ago GDP is as high as it’s ever been what I’m talking about are trends can you point out any that are not headed in a positive direction or are you one of those with a reason for wanting the country to appear to be headed in the wrong direction. I know it’s a bitter pill to swallow but it appears that liberal policies are working, get over it.

     
  • Jeff Tillett posted at 3:19 pm on Mon, May 7, 2012.

    Jeff Tillett Posts: 541

    I post a link to a scientific study... you post a collection of trite, banal platitudes. Nice work, yet again.

     
  • Florence McSpoon posted at 3:14 pm on Mon, May 7, 2012.

    Florence McSpoon Posts: 18

    Why does this letter have a big "UPDATED" notice on it and then a large "COMMENT DELETED" sign halfway through the comments? Did someone pass gas in the ballroom?

     
  • John Lucas posted at 2:50 pm on Mon, May 7, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Robert Chapman says

    Pat, the REAL question should be, name a country that has espoused Kenysian style economics that is not in a financial crisis. There are NONE. Many have failed or on the verge of financial failure such as Ireland, Italy, Greece, Spain, Portugal, Hungary and even United States.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    It is ironic that Mr Chapman chose countries, with the exception of the United States, who turned their back on Keynesian Economics and chose the austerity measures that Mr Chapman celebrates. Those countries chose to do the very things that Mr Chapman has been advising repeatedly on these pages. It is ironic that the United States among the countries Mr Chapman noted was the only one who choose to do a mild stimulus and is the only one who is in a mild recovery. Two years ago Paul Krugman, a Nobel Prize winning Keynesian economist correctly predicted what would happen in Europe and here in the United States.

    We wonder why the highly educated and very successful businessman, Mr. Chapman, would so misrepresent what happened blaming Keynesian ideas for what is so clearly the result of ideas he celebrates. We would never doubt his honor. Where does he get his information? I can tell from his posts that he watches Fox News but......Oh, I see

     
  • Jeff Tillett posted at 1:25 pm on Mon, May 7, 2012.

    Jeff Tillett Posts: 541

    Great use of denial Robert! Really top notch. Since one of the four publications is from a source you deem liberal, then not just that article, but all are deemed irrelevant. Way to attack the messenger.

    Scientific studies have suggested that there is a difference in the way liberals and conservatives think. Low cognitive effort tends to lead to conservative ideas/answers. Conservatives tend to have enarged amygdalas (the primitive thought portion of the brain - think: fight or flight) and smaller anterior cingulates (formulates courage and optimism). Furthermore, Conservatives react to emotional stimuli with much greater intensity than liberals.

    So what this seems to indicate is that quick, gut, emotion-driven answers tend to be conservative in scope. Also, conservatives are more fearful and emotionally reactive. Conservativism is not a disease, nor is liberalism. But biologically, it seems the conservative thinking is more driven by fear, emotion, and low-cognition thinking. Don't agree, find a scientific study that leads to a different conclusion.

    Oh, and I couldn't find the article but a study a few years ago indicated that conservatives will reject "experts" just being being labeled "experts" at an alarming rate... need to find that...

     
  • Gary Musto posted at 1:08 pm on Mon, May 7, 2012.

    Gary Musto Posts: 506

    Speaking of being aware, did you even notice that Mr. Heuer's name (not Hueur) isn't mentioned anywhere in my post, but hey, if those ruby slippers fit, you must admit.

    Now that's just plain funny right there.

     
  • Patrick W Maple posted at 1:00 pm on Mon, May 7, 2012.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1805

    As I said: Stupid.

    mrb: 23 million people are out of work and can barely pay their bills. 500,000 left the work force last month. The misery index is 13.8 (with underemployed at an ALL time high it is closer to 16%). These numbers are the worst since Carter. GDP growth is 2%...woooooooooo. Just wait until those 99 weekers run out of paychecks...they WILL be happy.

     
  • Gary Musto posted at 12:50 pm on Mon, May 7, 2012.

    Gary Musto Posts: 506

    I give up Eric, you brought up the Gallup poll survey, tell me what you think it means??

     
  • Robert Chapman posted at 12:28 pm on Mon, May 7, 2012.

    Bob Chapman Posts: 997

    "Liberals and conservatives don’t just vote differently. They think differently."
    Thankfully so, Mr. Tillett, thankfully so.
    Honestly, you have to read something besides liberal propaganda tabloids.
    The Washington Post? Should be renamed The Liberal Post.
    Get back to me when you can cite unbiased publications and studies that do not include inebriated test subjects.

     
  • Robert Chapman posted at 11:12 am on Mon, May 7, 2012.

    Bob Chapman Posts: 997

    Ooops, sorry, it was Andrew who posted the thread that provided the laughs. Thanks Andrew.

     
  • Robert Chapman posted at 10:58 am on Mon, May 7, 2012.

    Bob Chapman Posts: 997

    Gary, some people just like to agitate and pick fights. I find that people who rely on attacks and intimidation are usually incapable of sane rational discourse. I have zero tolerance for people that exhibit such childish behavior. Eventually everyone else will tire of them and they will have to agitate themselves......as it should be.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 9:50 am on Mon, May 7, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Why would you think I am angry? A little projection perhaps? I have to admit I find your post to be an example of someone totally lacking in self awareness.
    You say:
    If that doesn't seem to sway his opponent over to his way of thinking, he then reverts to plan B, name calling.
    In this post you call me a"small petulant child", "a foul mouth teenager" and you call Mr Hueur "toto".

    I love this statement you make:

    He now has his little "Toto" that follows him around the site and who doubles as his own personal cheerleader.
    Yes, Mr Hueur and I agree on many issues and you could accuse me of following him around because I have commented on his posts and commended him for posts that I thought were well done.

    What is your relationship with Mr, Chapman? Are you not his "toto". Are you not doing exactly what you mistakenly accuse Mr Hueur of doing?

    Did you even read what you wrote? Amazing. Your post does have much entertainment value.

     
  • Eric Barrow posted at 9:38 am on Mon, May 7, 2012.

    Eric Barrow Posts: 1460

    Gary maybe they are, a recent Gallup poll found that 40% of Americans interviewed in national Gallup Poll surveys describe their political views as conservative, 35% as moderate Hmm wonder what that motive could be?

     
  • John Lucas posted at 9:18 am on Mon, May 7, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    I know the statement you made was poor attempt by you at attacking me. It is really a reflection on you. As you and Mr Chapman cannot for whatever reason respond to the substance of my posts and make an effort to have reasonable open and honest debate on ideas you really should do what Mr Chapman is suggesting. Ignore me completely. This will not keep me from commenting on the substance of yours and Mr Chapman's posts but he is right. Ignoring me and saying nothing is your best chance of winning the argument.

     
  • Gary Musto posted at 9:01 am on Mon, May 7, 2012.

    Gary Musto Posts: 506

    Here's some funny stuff for you Eric, in the most recent polling done by CBS/NY Times, 31% believe the nation is headed in the right direction leaving 62% saying it is headed in the wrong direction.

    Rasmussen, May 2, 31% right direction, 62% wrong direction.

    Real Clear Politics average as of May 3, 32.7% right direction, 60% wrong direction, a spread of -27.

    Looks like there a lot of "uniformed" people out there or maybe they are hiding some kind of "ulterior motive" like you suggested??

     
  • Robert Chapman posted at 8:56 am on Mon, May 7, 2012.

    Bob Chapman Posts: 997

    Pat, the REAL question should be, name a country that has espoused Kenysian style economics that is not in a financial crisis. There are NONE. Many have failed or on the verge of financial failure such as Ireland, Italy, Greece, Spain, Portugal, Hungary and even United States. Kenysian economics makes as much sense as buying beer so you can get rich when you cash in the aluminum cans.

     
  • Robert Chapman posted at 8:38 am on Mon, May 7, 2012.

    Bob Chapman Posts: 997

    Gary, thanks for the laughs. Proves that a lot of people are uninformed and oblivious to the current issues.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 8:28 am on Mon, May 7, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    My question has always been the same.

    Name a country who has not used Keynesian economics and has a substantial middle class. There are none

    Your answer and all your Conservative Republican friends answers has always been the same. Silence

     
  • Eric Barrow posted at 8:24 am on Mon, May 7, 2012.

    Eric Barrow Posts: 1460

    Gary it appears that you have started plan B yourself so funny to hear someone complaining about name calling by calling people names.

     
  • Gary Musto posted at 8:03 am on Mon, May 7, 2012.

    Gary Musto Posts: 506

    Excellent post Mr. Liebich.

    Question, "Is he a Keynesian?"

    Lady Obamanoid responds, "He gave you proof, he gave you proof, what more do you want?"

    Priceless!!!


     
  • Jeff Tillett posted at 8:00 am on Mon, May 7, 2012.

    Jeff Tillett Posts: 541

    Study: Conservatives have larger “fear center”
    http://www.salon.com/2010/12/29/conservative_brains/singleton/

    Primal Propensity for Disgust Shapes Political Positions
    http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2011/10/disgust-and-politics/

    Liberals and conservatives don’t just vote differently. They think differently.
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/liberals-and-conservatives-dont-just-vote-differently-they-think-differently/2012/04/12/gIQAzb1kDT_story_1.html

     
  • Eric Barrow posted at 7:39 am on Mon, May 7, 2012.

    Eric Barrow Posts: 1460

    Keynesian economics appears to have worked in our last economic crisis; production of goods is twice as high as a decade ago. The stock market is back, GDP is sluggish but a solid 11% higher than the depths of the recession in 2008 and 2009 we saw negative growth in GDP 2010 and 2011 we have seen growth. The only economic indicator that is not positive is unemployment and a big reason for this is cuts in government jobs, exactly what the right wanted. Even conservative columnist David Brooks says that the economy is growing as it has done historically after other recessions and we should see a full recovery about 7 years after the end of the recession. This should give anyone a clue as to why the left is so worried about right wing economic policies; it just takes so long to recover from them. Anyone still claiming that our economy is headed in the wrong direction is either uniformed or has some ulterior motive

     
  • Gary Musto posted at 7:36 am on Mon, May 7, 2012.

    Gary Musto Posts: 506

    Congratulations Mr. Chapman, you must have struck a nerve with your latest post, seems like you angered a fellow poster.

    Like a small, petulant child, he reverts to whining and stamping his feet when anyone dare dare question the validity of his comments.

    If that doesn't seem to sway his opponent over to his way of thinking, he then reverts to plan B, name calling, nobody does it better with the glee of a foul mouth teenager.

    He now has his little "Toto" that follows him around the site and who doubles as his own personal cheerleader.

     
  • Robert Chapman posted at 7:25 am on Mon, May 7, 2012.

    Bob Chapman Posts: 997

    The "Post" Mr. Maple, remember "The Post"......

     
  • Andrew Liebich posted at 7:15 am on Mon, May 7, 2012.

    Andrew Liebich Posts: 2986


    Government cannot create wealth, and neither can the printing presses.

    At Jon Stewart’s much hyped political rally in Washington – 'Rally to Restore Sanity and/or Fear' – an intrepid reporter asked attendees for clarification.

    Obamanoids were asked, "Is President Obama a Keynesian?"

    Listen to their responses... http://youtu.be/_23Nt5XumaU

    ROFLMAO!

     
  • Patrick W Maple posted at 7:09 am on Mon, May 7, 2012.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1805

    My answer to ALL of mrl's post from here forward will be: STUPID

     
  • Patrick W Maple posted at 6:55 am on Mon, May 7, 2012.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1805

    mrh: "Huh?" That is about what one would expect from an intellectual giant. Maybe you agree with mrl. ?

     
  • Patrick W Maple posted at 6:51 am on Mon, May 7, 2012.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1805

    mrl: You have changed...your question is now: name a country who HAS used the Keyensian model, not is using the model. All those you named may have tried it but they found it to be a failure...just like we are finding out.

    Writing more words does not make you more right. Your comparison: "This is the thinking of a demagogue. Hitler, Stalin and Mao have nothing on Mr Chapman."

    THIS is an ASSININE statement. Comparing ANY American to such dispicable people is just plain STUPID, IDIOTIC, CRUEL and DOWN RIGHT DISHONEST.

    You sir are a political BIGOT.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 1:50 am on Mon, May 7, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    All true. The problem is that we as a country we have forgotten the history of the Great Depression. Many believe the nonsense thrown at them by Fox News and the rest of the Conservative media. If one want to look at what the Conservative media is teaching all one has to do is read the letter to the editor "Dishonesty should not be part of our psyche" By Jerry Osgood in todays paper. That is what people on the right think is rational thinking. Scary stuff, indeed. I remember when growing up there were people like Mr. Osgood but they were about 10% of the population. The conservative media has grown that percentage to about 30%.

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 12:26 am on Mon, May 7, 2012.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1340

    John of coourse you are absolutely correct.
    Some say the stimulus didn't work. They really don't understand how much it did work. We avoided a much greater depression. There are those that believe if there was no government intervention (stimulus, unemployment insurance) that it would be a short time before the economy bounced back to normal. This despite the loss of a whole industry (housing and related jobs, carpenters, electricians, painters, et al) along with the loss of the capital industry, the European crisis our economy is unable to bounce back. People suffer.People really take our prosperity for granted and can't even begin to imgine the prospects of a total collapse. .

     
  • John Lucas posted at 10:38 pm on Sun, May 6, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Robert Chapman post at 5:30 pm on Sun, May 6, 2012.reveal much about his character. I will comment on it in chunks

    He says:
    Naw. I know nothing about economics. I am sure the college courses I took in economics had it all wrong, and I am sure the multimillion dollar business I founded ran successfully for 40+ years, during up AND down economies, mean I still can't grasp basic economics. I have probably forgotten more about economics than most people will ever know.

    This is an idea he shares with Pat Maple. Their ideas are not to be considered because of their intrinsic value. They have value because of their life experience. This is obvious nonsense and only a person with an out sized ego and belief that he or she is better than his fellows would think such a thing. Though life experience can certainly can lead to a good idea, the idea has to be judged on its own merits.

    Then he says:
    And therein lies the problem, gullible people swallow unworkable economic "solutions" proposed by government agencies hoping the average citizen is too stupid to figure out it is disasterous until it is too late.

    Again, Pat Maple shares the following idea with him. He has already made the case for his superiority above. He is now saying the rest of us are “ gullable people” and “too stupid to figure out” anything for ourselves. This is the thinking of a demagogue. Hitler, Stalin and Mao have nothing on Mr Chapman.

    Then he says:
    The politicians win, the taxpayers lose.

    This is just a talking point or as some would say, hot air.

    Why did he make this comment? I gave my theory in a response to Mr. Heuer:

    What Mr Chapman is doing with his I am rich, I am so educated, I ran a business argument is running away from the debate at hand. It is just a defense mechanism used when someone cannot defend their position with logic or argument. Once a person uses these arguments any prospect of rational debate about the subject at hand is nil. He has just changed the subject of the debate from Keynesian Economics to an argument on who has the best personal credentials. If you noticed he went into this routine the second you mentioned my posts. I leave it you why this is so.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 10:27 pm on Sun, May 6, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    fraudulent-liberal-claim-conservatism-may-be-a-consequence-of-low-effort-thought/

    Even liberal ‘economic’ policies demonstrate a distinct lack high-effort thought.

    Not too long ago, #OWS losers (poster children of liberalism) Tweeted their outrage at ‘corporate greed’ on their Apple iPhones, while sipping Starbucks lattes purchased using their parents debit cards. Is this really high-effort thinking?

    So-called low-effort thinking conservatives embrace the Founding Fathers ideals of limited government, liberty, the individual, the concept of Federalism, religious and economic freedom. Conservatives also understand our Founders were students of history and based our Constitution on ideas and principles that have stood the test of time.

    History tells us the Founders were correct.

    Contrary to conservatives, high-effort thinking liberals embrace central planning government, class warfare, wealth redistribution, devaluing human life & unions. In short, today’s liberal is embracing Marxist principles.

    If liberals would stop their high-effort thinking and study actual history (not Social Studies) they would discover that Marxism leads to communism. And communism doesn’t work. Ever.

    Maybe our intrepid authors should swallow their liberal pride and re-think their papers thesis.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 10:18 pm on Sun, May 6, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Mr Schmidt... economic loss as a result of malicious intent is the issue... as normal, you are characterizing what I said in a false light.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 10:02 pm on Sun, May 6, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Pat Maple says:

    For the LAST time...Keynesian economics does NOT work. Never has never will.

    He then put some cut and pasted stuff that sounds like it is saying something but does not and conludes with:

    NOWHERE in his theory does he mention the fact that MANY economies around the world WILL NOT abide by his theory or rules. Again...the GDR, Russia, China, Japan, Spain, Venezuela, Mexico...

    This is factually incorrect for Germany, Spain and Japan are countries that used Keynesian economics to build their economies. This leads to the question I aways ask and never get an answer.

    Name a country that has a substantial middle class and has not used Keynesian Economics? There are none

    Notice the deafening silence coming from Pat Maple, Robert Chapman and all the other Conservative Republicans here on this question

     
  • John Lucas posted at 8:41 pm on Sun, May 6, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Robert Chapman writes:
    See Thomas, you get it. When times are lean, you have to cut the fat and go lean to survive, something the government is not willing to do. Gambling with our future is not an option. Borrowing to gamble with our future is just plain inexcusable. There are times when borrowing money makes good sense. But borrowing money on speculation isn't one of them.

    This is what happens when Mr Chapman's ideas are put into action. The basic idea of what I am describing is taught in all beginning Economic classes in all Universities.

    All downturns are caused by lack of demand. Lets say we have 5 businesses that are in a downturn cycle and one goes under leaving four and demand goes down further. The Conservative Republicans fire some teachers, firemen, police etc and cancel some infrastructure projects and demand goes down further. One more of the original businesses goes down due to lack of demand and demand goes down further. The Conservative Republicans fire some more teachers, fireman, police etc and cancel some more infrastructure projects and demand goes down further. You repeat this process until there are no more businesses and no more demand and what you have is a meltdown of the economy. This is exactly what they happened in 1929. From 1928 till 1933 unemployment went from 4.3% to 24.9% and we experienced the biggest meltdown in our history. This is exactly what is happening right now in the European Countries who elected Conservatives who put austerity policies to work.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 8:28 pm on Sun, May 6, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    What Mr Chapman is doing with his I am rich, I am so educated, I ran a business argument is running away from the debate at hand. It is just a defense mechanism used when someone cannot defend their position with logic or argument. Once a person uses these arguments any prospect of rational debate about the subject at hand is nil. He has just changed the subject of the debate from Keynesian Economics to an argument on who has the best personal credentials. If you noticed he went into this routine the second you mentioned my posts. I leave it you why this is so.

     
  • Andrew Liebich posted at 7:59 pm on Sun, May 6, 2012.

    Andrew Liebich Posts: 2986

    LOL... A perfect example Mr. Musto of why you can lead liberals into the world of fact and they will try to follow very unsuccessfully...

     
  • Gary Musto posted at 7:30 pm on Sun, May 6, 2012.

    Gary Musto Posts: 506

    The study was done by a team of psychologists led by a Dr. Eidelman who asked people about their political views in a BAR and in a laboratory setting. Alcohol intoxication was measured among bar patrons. Gee Jeff, why not interview those picked up by the police and taken to the local drunk tank???

    So, a team of psychologists go to a bar, talk to drunks, and later come up with a theory that "suggest that political conservatism may be a process consequence of low-effort thought?"

    Where was the bar located, how many patrons were interviewed, what were the ages of those in the study, sex of the patrons, average income, educational background? What psychometric parameters were used in analyzing the data?

    The good thing Jeff is that the story ended up in the "Huffington Post" you probably didn't know this but they are as far left as they come so there couldn't possibly be any leftist slant given to this hilarious so called "social experiment?"

    What's next up for you Jeff, a study taken to find out how everything is shaping up on your new unicorn ranch??


     
  • Andrew Liebich posted at 7:26 pm on Sun, May 6, 2012.

    Andrew Liebich Posts: 2986

    The way our system works, whenever more money is created more debt is created as well. For example, whenever the U.S. government wants to spend more money than it takes in (which happens constantly), it has to go ask the Federal Reserve for it. The federal government gives U.S. Treasury bonds to the Federal Reserve, and the Federal Reserve gives the U.S. government "Federal Reserve Notes" in return. Usually this is just done electronically. As long as the Federal Reserve System exists, U.S. government debt will continue to go up and up and up.

    So where does the Federal Reserve get the Federal Reserve Notes?

    It just creates them out of thin air.

    Wouldn’t you like to be able to create money out of thin air?

    Instead of issuing money directly, the U.S. government lets the Federal Reserve create it out of thin air and then the U.S. government borrows it.

    Talk about stupid.

    Most Americans are content with believing that the Federal Reserve is just another government agency that sets our interest rates and that is watching out for the best interests of the American people but that is not the case at all. The truth is that the Federal Reserve is a private banking cartel that has been designed to systematically destroy the value of our currency, drain the wealth of the American public and enslave the federal government to perpetually expanding debt.

    During this election year, the economy is the number one issue that voters are concerned about but instead of endlessly blaming both political parties, the truth is that most of the blame should be placed at the feet of the Federal Reserve.

    A total of $16.1 trillion in secret loans were made by the Federal Reserve between December 1, 2007 and July 21, 2010.
    http://www.scribd.com/doc/60553686/GAO-Fed-Investigation#outer_page_144

    The Federal Reserve has more power over the performance of the U.S. economy than anyone else does. The Federal Reserve controls the money supply, the Federal Reserve sets the interest rates and the Federal Reserve hands out bailouts to the big banks that absolutely dwarf anything that Congress ever did.

    If the American people are ever going to learn what is really going on with our economy, then it is absolutely imperative that they get educated about the Federal Reserve.

    According to Article I, Section 8 of the U.S. Constitution, the U.S. Congress has been given the responsibility to coin money and regulate the value thereof.

    So why is the Federal Reserve doing it?

     
  • Robert Chapman posted at 7:25 pm on Sun, May 6, 2012.

    Bob Chapman Posts: 997

    See Thomas, you get it. When times are lean, you have to cut the fat and go lean to survive, something the government is not willing to do. Gambling with our future is not an option. Borrowing to gamble with our future is just plain inexcusable. There are times when borrowing money makes good sense. But borrowing money on speculation isn't one of them.

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 7:22 pm on Sun, May 6, 2012.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1340

    My hats off to you sir you credential yourself well. You have my respect. By your words I think we can also agree "the politicians win" but you have to admit we have the politicians and government the people voted for. Not always what they intended. The system is broken but is fixable needing only for us to agree on what we want as a country.

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 6:10 pm on Sun, May 6, 2012.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1340

    Now we do agree that if you spend more than you take in eventuality you will go broke. The question here is are we to determine our ability to pay back our debt based on our current recessionary economy or on our ability to pay it back after a full recovery? Currently we will not in any near future. Under a full recovery there is a greater ability with greater revenues.

     
  • Robert Chapman posted at 5:30 pm on Sun, May 6, 2012.

    Bob Chapman Posts: 997

    Naw. I know nothing about economics. I am sure the college courses I took in economics had it all wrong, and I am sure the multimillion dollar business I founded ran successfully for 40+ years, during up AND down economies, mean I still can't grasp basic economics. I have probably forgotten more about economics than most people will ever know. And therein lies the problem, gullible people swallow unworkable economic "solutions" proposed by government agencies hoping the average citizen is too stupid to figure out it is disasterous until it is too late.The politicians win, the taxpayers lose.

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 4:48 pm on Sun, May 6, 2012.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1340

    Thank you Mr Tillett
    This is very correct and supported by other studies.

     
  • Robert Chapman posted at 4:47 pm on Sun, May 6, 2012.

    Bob Chapman Posts: 997

    No matter how you spin it, be it personal, business or government economy, it is really pretty simple. Spend more than you take in and you go broke. Our government spends way more than it takes in, then points fingers at everyone else except themselves for the problem. Infusing money into the economy (Kenysian principle) after borrowing it, with the inability to pay it back, is financial suicide. Even borders on financial fraud. Maybe Maddow needs a few roomates.

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 4:36 pm on Sun, May 6, 2012.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1340

    hey good post Pat. Was this suppose to go anywhere in particular in your previous post?.

     
  • Jeff Tillett posted at 4:29 pm on Sun, May 6, 2012.

    Jeff Tillett Posts: 541

    http://m.psp.sagepub.com/content/early/2012/03/16/0146167212439213.abstract?sid=61f31151-754e-4436-96bd-ead6340b61f2

    "Together these data suggest that political conservatism may be a process consequence of low-effort thought; when effortful, deliberate thought is disengaged, endorsement of conservative ideology increases."

    See: conservative analogies, Robert Chapman

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 4:27 pm on Sun, May 6, 2012.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1340

    PM
    Three things
    1) huh?
    2) Thanks for proving my point that when a conservative reads an unintelligible post from another conservative but figures it serves his views there will be the exchange of supportive "way-to-goes" perpetuating a happy ignorant bliss.
    3) huh?

     
  • Patrick W Maple posted at 4:08 pm on Sun, May 6, 2012.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1805

    I forgot a word: Greed...something that can be found at all socio-economic levels.

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 4:05 pm on Sun, May 6, 2012.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1340

    Mr Chapman I have to assume you are unable to grasp the fundamentals of economics. So yes I concede whether its a bucket of water or sand you take from the pool the act of adding it back at any end will not raise the level. However the analogy has no relationship to the complexities of our economy and only further hinders developing solutions. I understand the point you are trying to make however it has no corelation to reality as J Lucas has pointed out in his several posts.

     
  • Patrick W Maple posted at 3:47 pm on Sun, May 6, 2012.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1805

    Soooo...mrh...you are losing your pension and benefits?? And you want me to continue pay for them like I have been doing? Welcome to the real world.

    mrl: You GUARANTEE it??? What is your guarantee worth? Nothing! Just like BO's hope and change...

    Bob: The problem with the above two is they want you to put your water into their pools. Your sand in their box. Your gas in their cars. Your fuel into their homes.

    For the LAST time...Keynesian economics does NOT work. Never has never will.
    "A central conclusion of Keynesian economics is that, in some situations, no strong automatic mechanism moves output and employment towards full employment levels." .."Some interpretations of Keynes have emphasized his stress on the international coordination of Keynesian policies, the need for international economic institutions, and the ways in which economic forces could lead to war or could promote peace.[" ... international economic institutions??? Like the IMF and UN.

    NOWHERE in his theory does he mention the fact that MANY economies around the world WILL NOT abide by his theory or rules. Again...the GDR, Russia, China, Japan, Spain, Venezuela, Mexico...

     
  • John Lucas posted at 2:52 pm on Sun, May 6, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    The pool analogy does not work because a pool of water does not have a life of its own. A pool is a zero sum game. An economy is like a living organism in a tank of water that can grow and shrinks on its own. When growing you do not need to add anything to it. When it is dying if you do not do something for it can meltdown to nothing. From 1870 to 1929 we had a financial meltdown just about every 10 years. In the 1930's we learned that if you add water(money/stimulas) to the pool when the organism is dying that it will recover and start growing on it's own. So we added water(money/stimulas) to the pool and the organism(the economy) started growing again and we avoided the deflation and the meltdown. The problem is that you only have so much water(money) to put in the pool. When the organism is growing you have to take out water(money/paying off the debt).to keep your accounts even. Our problem now is that Reagan and the Bushes put water(money/stimulus) in the the pool and never took any out (money/paying off the debt).

    This is not a perfect analogy but it is much closer to the truth than Roberts

     
  • John Lucas posted at 1:51 pm on Sun, May 6, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    if you notice in the above post there is not one talking point and I guarantee you none of our resident Conservative Republicans will answer any of the arguments I made. If they repy at all it will be with a personal attack or a talking point. All they know is talking points for reasonable arguments gets them confused and open and honest debate is beyond them

     
  • John Lucas posted at 1:35 pm on Sun, May 6, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Robert Chapman said:
    Spending your way out of debt doesn't work, never has, never will. Sooner or later, the bill comes due so we borrow more money to to stay afloat.

    He is absolutely right. From Carter to Bush Jr we put over 9 trillion dollars on the credit card. 78% was put on by Republicans Presidents. Putting it on the credit card is called stimulus spending. These so-called financial Conservatives said if we cut taxes the economy will generate more revenue and there will be no deficit. They cut taxes every chance they got, the vast majority of it going to the super rich and said if we do this these job creators will create tons of jobs. How did that work out? it is true they created jobs but unfortunately they were in other countries. It is not a bad idea for stimulus spending in a downturn but these so-called financial conservative did it in the upturns also. Not one of them made any effort to balance the budget.
    The only exception in the for 28 years before Obama was Bill Clinton. He like other financially conservative Keynesians such as Carter, Ford, Nixon, Johnson, Ike, Truman all made efforts to pay the debt off in the upturns. Ike, Truman, and Clinton had balanced budgets and tried to pay some of the debt off.

    It is always amazing to me that guys like Robert who claim to be financial Conservative and say that the government should be run like a business voted for the most profligate spenders in the history of this nation and will defend these lavish, wasteful spenders until his dying breath. It is ironic that if Reagan or the Bushes ran a business the way they ran the government they would be fired but Bill Clinton came through with flying colors
    By the way, it is no accident that from the 1930's till Reagan this country was run by Presidents who were Keynesians. It was the period of the greatest prosperity in the history of the world. the Greatest middle class in the world was built. There were upturns and downturns but there was no total meltdown as in 1929 or anything on par with what almost happened in 2008. All I can say is thank you Ronald Reagan for the mess we are in..

     
  • Robert Chapman posted at 12:59 pm on Sun, May 6, 2012.

    Bob Chapman Posts: 997

    Are you kidding me? OK, if you want play "what if" then simply replace the water in the pool with sand. The point being that +1-1 equals 0, not 2. Well, not in the REAL world.

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 12:35 pm on Sun, May 6, 2012.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1340

    See this is the problem with the pool analogy. It makes the assumption the water is stagnant. The water is evaporating and needs the hose turned on to replenish toe loss. In this analogy the hose is freemarket economy. Normally it works automaticly but you didn't pay your water bill so the pump can't give needed water. Now you can oh if I leave it alone it will come back on its own. That is not beyond the realm of possibilities however if your water gets too low it begins damaging the pool. Not to mention the fish will get sick and die (stay with me I'm trying to make this analogy work). Now you need another water source bottled or a hose from your neighbor to fill your pool. Is this sustainable. NOOOOOO. Can you do this forever. All together now NOOOOO. Your trying to protect your pool while you pay your bill and wait for the city to turn your water on. I know its not your fault the city has problems with due dates on their bills. One past the crisis and the pump is working again freemarkets are on their own you stop the bottoled water delivery buy your beighbor some pizza and we sit at the kitchen table writing checks to pay off the bottled water.

    So now we can talk about the sustainability of other government spending like entitlements and defense which I think you are getting confused with. and yes tax payers will pay the cost as long as conservative continue to let ultra wealthy not pay taxes and rob us of pensions, health care, education, jobs, etc.

     
  • Patrick W Maple posted at 12:17 pm on Sun, May 6, 2012.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1805

    mrss: The problem here is who threw the first rock. My point was the unintended consequences...they hurt no matter who throws the rock. I don't mind disagreements just disagreeable people and posts. I consider you to be fairly intelligent, biting, sarcastic and sometimes a bit mean..like most of us here...others I am not so fond of. I just ask that people bring information intead of just one of the above.

     
  • Robert Chapman posted at 11:44 am on Sun, May 6, 2012.

    Bob Chapman Posts: 997

    The difference is the money Mr. Romney puts in offshore bank accounts BELONGS to Mr. Romney to do with as he pleases. Money borrowed by the federel government and dumped in the "shallow end" has to be paid back by taxpayers. Spending your way out of debt doesn't work, never has, never will. Sooner or later, the bill comes due so we borrow more money to to stay afloat. An endless cycle that spirals America into bankruptcy and we all lose.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 11:35 am on Sun, May 6, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Robert I do not think your analogy holds water(Bad pun but I could not help myself sorry) For the sake of argument lets compare supply side economics and Keynesian economics. They are the two competing management systems for our free market capitalistic economic system. Also lets talk separately about the upturn and the downturn of the business cycle. Lets start with the downturn of the cycle and the Conservative Republicans idea of dealing with it with austerity.


    All downturns are caused by lack of demand. Lets say we have 5 businesses that are in a downturn cycle and one goes under leaving four and demand goes down further. The Conservative Republicans fire some teachers, firemen, police etc and cancel some infrastructure projects and demand goes down further. One more of the original businesses goes down due to lack of demand and demand goes down further. The Conservative Republicans fire some more teachers, fireman, police etc and cancel some more infrastructure projects and demand goes down further. You repeat this process until there are no more businesses and no more demand and what you have is a meltdown of the economy. This is exactly what they happened in 1929. From 1928 till 1933 unemployment went from 4.3% to 24.9% and we experienced the biggest meltdown in our history. This is exactly what is happening right now in the European Countries who elected Conservatives who put austerity policies to work.

    If you reply I will have to get back to later as I have things I have to do

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 11:16 am on Sun, May 6, 2012.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1340

    See this is the problem with some conservatives. Where ever on earth this pool analogy came from any intelligent person would scratch their head and say huh?
    They would let it go and say I must have just heard that wrong and let it go. Nope not a conservative. They would hear that, obviously knowing nothing of economics, and revel in the simplicity and say wow now I know what my position is on Kenysian economics. And then to actually use the comment publicly thinking they have made a meaningful contribution is sad commentary. However other conservatives will read and say, huh? But they will think Oh sounds like he is against it and respond with right ons and high fives thinking that will really put liberals in their place. No closer to truth but their dopamine centers are flush and they spike the football feeling satisfied they have kept the world in darkness for at least the time being.

     
  • Steve Schmidt posted at 11:12 am on Sun, May 6, 2012.

    Steve Schmidt Posts: 2239

    What happens when a fellow like Mr Romney takes his giant bucket, fills it with water from the shallow end and dumps it into an offshore bank account? I guessing the shallow end of the pool gets left high and dry.

     
  • Patrick W Maple posted at 10:54 am on Sun, May 6, 2012.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1805

    Bob: Best answer: Yep

     
  • Robert Chapman posted at 10:38 am on Sun, May 6, 2012.

    Bob Chapman Posts: 997

    The best analogy I have heard regarding Kenysian Economics is,"It is like taking a bucket of water from the deep end of the pool, dumping it in the shallow end an expecting the level of the water in the pool to rise". Not going to happen.

     
  • Steve Schmidt posted at 7:32 am on Sun, May 6, 2012.

    Steve Schmidt Posts: 2239

    Chuckle.....with the conservative position becoming increasingly untenable over the last couple of months, it was inevitable that something like this would happen.

    These folks will do anything to avoid an honest discussion of the issues facing our nation. Josef Goebbels and Carl Rove would be proud!

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 12:57 am on Sun, May 6, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    When someone like yourself begins the debate in a position that everything wrong is because of one side and everything right is because of the other side... its a waste of time to discuss anything. There is no way to debate someone so biased and ego driven...

     
  • John Lucas posted at 12:48 am on Sun, May 6, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Joanne, go for it. Can you imagine Dr Strangelove on the stand with your lawyer cross examining him? Worth the price of admission. He would have to change his pants afterword.

     
  • Joanne Bobin posted at 11:12 pm on Sat, May 5, 2012.

    Joanne Bobin Posts: 4488

    I have no idea what you are trying to say.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 8:32 pm on Sat, May 5, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Pat, I am going to answer the following comment you made in another letter

    Oh boy! kl and jl: It is called a question mrl...try asking one sometime. I am very good at answering them...let me give you a couple of examples: Mr Maple...what did you mean by...? Or hey Pat...I don't understan...can you clarify?

    This was an answer to me poking fun at you in one of my comments. One of the things I like about you is that sometimes you listen which is rare for most of your allies on these pages. I also like the fact though you can certainly dish it out you also can take it. You are not a whiner. The fact is we both share the same character defect. We both are know it alls. Do you think I am crazy in my political beliefs. Yes, absolutely. Do I think you are crazy in your political beliefs. Yes, absolutely. So what?

    The reason sometimes I do not answer you is not because I cannot decipher what you are saying but because you are not addressing the topic in any meaningful manner. This thread is about Keynesian Economics. Look at your comment. There is nothing there about the mechanics of how it works. You just state a bunch of statistics, say k-boy does not work and get in a couple of very mild digs at Thomas and I. I am not even sure you have a working knowledge of the theory.

    The basic theory is when the economy good pay off the debt. When the economy is bad borrow money, build infrastructure until the economy starts to recover and then go back to paying the national debt. Wash, rinse, repeat. It is a very conservative financial theory. You must pay off the debt in the up part of the cycle. This is what Truman, Eisenhower, Johnson, and Nixon, Ford and Carter and Bill Clinton tried to accomplish. When Carter left office the debt was less than a trillion dollars.

    From Carter to Bush Jr the debt increased to over 10 trillion dollars. 78% of that was done under Republican Presidents. In every upturn of the economy under Republican Presidents they made no effort to pay off the debt. They just cut taxes and borrowed more money. How can they call themselves financial conservatives? They are not. It is ironic that Bill Clinton was the only Financial conservative since Jimmy Carter J? Carter only increased the debt 280 billion dollars.

    The so called financial conservative now want to pay off the debt in a downturn. What does history say about that? The policies that the conservative Republicans want to impose on us now are the same they imposed on the nation in 1929. Unemployment went from 4.3% to 24.9% in three year and caused the greatest financial meltdown in the history of our nation. It has been tried in Europe in the last two years by their conservatives and the result is a downturn in their economies.

    If you want to have a dialog and have me address the issues you bring up you are going to have to address the issues I bring up. Who knows maybe both of us might learn something

     
  • John Lucas posted at 6:58 pm on Sat, May 5, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Dr. Strangelove, I have to admit it took awhile to reply to your comment. I did not know how hard it is type while laughing. Even for you, your comments are so out in left field that I thought I was watching Steven Colbert. I have to admit laughter is my main reaction to most of the nonsense you write. There was one thing you said that I wanted to comment on. You said:

    ( Bobin/Lucas).. no debate of substance possible with these folks...

    How do you know when you have never tried it?

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 6:02 pm on Sat, May 5, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405


    Ron... not one post that disproved anything you stated.... my only complaint is that
    you do not write enough letters bringing even more value and accuracy to the readers.

    Obviously there is no debate as anything other than radical left wing views are considered “wrong” by the likes of the twins ( Bobin/Lucas).. no debate of substance possible with these folks...

    It also must be very frustrating to the lefties as Andrew, who is considered by them a conspiracy nut, and Pat, considered whacked out, posted more reality on this thread that all the combined liberal positions on all threads that Lucas and Bobin ,with uncontrolled anger, posted. They must be devastated that they were more informative and accurate to economic conditions than themselves.

    It is refreshing to the reader though that truth is making its way to light.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 2:42 pm on Sat, May 5, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Joe we really have missed your penetrating comments. How they have a central idea and the you build upon those ideas with facts that support your thesis is a lesson to us all. They way you read someone else's comment and respond directly to that comment so that you and the person you are arguing with can get at the heart of the matter and come closer to the truth without personal attacks that get in the was of reasonable dialog. Yes I am in awe of your magnificent intellect that can guide us through a difficult argument. You have been missed.

     
  • Patrick W Maple posted at 1:57 pm on Sat, May 5, 2012.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1805

    mrl: You are writing a book...publish it...let's see who would buy it. mrh: Maybe you could co-author it...paragraphs and complete words work well.

    Plagerism from Pat Maple: Let's just look at one thing: The Misery Index: The Unemployment rate plus the Inflation rate.

    MI: Under Bush: average yearly index: 7.7 Including underemp: 7.8
    Under BO the average has been 10.6 Incudingl underemp: 15.1

    Number of jobs created under BO: 4 Million Number leaving workforce: 3.8 million
    According to the Gallop Poll: Unemployed: 10.2% Underemployed: 19.9% Misery index: 13.2 When Including the underemployed: 15.4%

    It takes JOBS to get people out of poverty and misery...NOT the government.
    Giving money away does NOT create jobs...just spending. K-boy doesn't work....neither does BO. It takes confidence to spend your savings...BO has none and offers none.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 1:40 pm on Sat, May 5, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Is it not amazing how Conservative Republicans are so concerned about the national debt all of the sudden? 78% of this debt from Carter to Bush Jr was done under Conservative Republican and like all debt is really a financial stimulus. Unfortunately most of this debt was sent to the top 1/10 of one percent of income earners as Mr Heuer points out and they did it while watching the infrastructure deteriorate. How did that work out? 2008 is it’s story. What is their solution? The Ryan budget which is just more stimulus spending in the form of tax cuts for the wealthy leading to massive deficits and draconian cuts in the safety net. Same old story.

    The basic problem is that Conservatives Republicans are not financial conservatives. In the last 30 years they have always done the same thing. If the economy is going good they cut taxes to send money to the top income bracket and increase the national debt. If the economy is going bad they cut taxes to send money to the top income bracket and increase the national debt. The important point to remember is that they are alway stimulating the economy by increasing the national debt. They just do the least effective form of stimulus spending which is sending money to the super rich. Imagine if they had spent that money on infrastructure.

    It is ironic that economist Paul Krugman, a Keynesian, is a far more financial conservative than any of these Conservative Republicans. He has always been against deficits in good economic times. Unlike Conservative Republicans he understands something called the business cycle. What goes up must come down. He has always been for paying down the government debt when the economy is going good. This what Bill Clinton did. Conservative Republicans are never interested in paying down the debt. That is their history and their plans for the future. Just look at the Ryan plan.

    What about when the economy is on the downward path? This is caused by lack of demand. This is the time that government needs to step in. It borrows money and invests mainly on infrastructure projects to create demand. This gives the economy a breather, keeps many businesses from going under and when the economy starts the upswing you start paying down the national debt freeing the private sector to invest by borrowing money at lower rates for the government is out of the credit markets. This is what a Keynesian would do and not a Conservative republican. They will just cut more taxes, send more money to the rich and create more national debt

    What is our Conservative Republican austerity plan do in bad times? Lets say we have 5 businesses that are on the brink in a downturn and one goes under leaving four and demand goes down further. The Conservative Republicans fire some teachers, fireman, police etc and cancel some infrastructure projects and demand goes down further. Another one of the original businesses goes down due to lack of demand.You repeat this process until there are no more businesses and no more demand and what you have is a meltdown of the economy. This is the history of what the Conservative Republicans want us to do. This is what happened from 1928 till 1933 when unemployment went from 4.3% to 24.9%. This is exactly what is happening in the European Countries who elected Conservatives who put these insane policies to work.

    Mr Liebich points out:

    Today, the U.S. national debt is equivalent to 101.5 percent of U.S. GDP.

    After WW II U.S. national debt is equivalent to 130 percent of U.S.

    He then says that I do not think the national debt is a major problem

    Who do you think I am? Dick Cheney, who said deficits do not matter? Do you think I am a Conservative Republican? I have always been in favor of paying down the national debt instead of funneling money to the super rich in good times. The GDP last year was 15 trillion dollars. If we do what Conservative Republicans want us to do we will have a financial meltdown. The tax base will crumble. If GDP is 10 trillion the current debt would be 150% of GDP and will skyrocket. This will please Conservative Republicans for the only thing they like better than destroying economies is increasing the national debt. This is is their history

     
  • Joe Baxter posted at 1:24 pm on Sat, May 5, 2012.

    Joe Baxter Posts: 1843

    JOANNE, how dare he use YOUR tactics.

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 11:57 am on Sat, May 5, 2012.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1340

    Lets check our Laffer Curves to see how an alternative like supply side economis has done. OOps its respomsible for much of the debt Andrew presented. Hey its just a little nostalgic now thinking about the days when there was a middle class. The ultra wealthy are now increasing their wealth at incredible speeds. Oh yes they worked so hard to earn it. Lets see when their parents died they had to be driven to the attorneys office to sign the inheritence documents, then lunch with the politicians and buy that last loop hole to avoid paying any tax followed by a visit to FOX nes to develop the propaganda of the week to rile conservative (its so easy) with simplistic concepts conveyed in simple words like socialism (formerly communism), career politicians, welfare and nanny states and so many more (woo tough work) so they get middle classers and small business to think they are protecting themselves when actuall they are protecting super billionaires who further steal what everreal working middle class wallets have left. Yeah so how is that working for you . Its destroying this country unless you name is Koch. And wealth is so easy to move after you decide there is nothing left in America to steal. Whoa globalization.

     
  • Joanne Bobin posted at 11:44 am on Sat, May 5, 2012.

    Joanne Bobin Posts: 4488

    To be expected - immediate agreement with a person who challenges a person you do not like without any understanding of the topic.

     
  • Andrew Liebich posted at 6:49 am on Sat, May 5, 2012.

    Andrew Liebich Posts: 2986

    It should be obvious to everyone but the most dedicated adherent of Keynesianism that the stimulus did not accomplish its end. The combination of outright spending by Congress, the desperate schemes to reflate the housing market, the attempt to transfuse bleeding firms with other people’s money, and the creation of trillions in artificial money, has not done a thing to lift the US economy.

    Today, the U.S. national debt is equivalent to 101.5 percent of U.S. GDP.

    The Fed actually purchased approximately 61 percent of all government debt issued by the U.S. Treasury Department in 2011.

    It is a shell game that cannot go on for too much longer.

    Mr. Lucas does not consider this to be a major problem.

    The Obama administration is currently stealing approximately 150 million dollars from our children and our grandchildren every single hour to finance our reckless spending, but for Mr. Lucas that is not nearly good enough.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 6:43 am on Sat, May 5, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Ron... Thank you for bringing reality to an issue which has been sorely lacking by some posters lately. Clearly, some people like Mr Lucas do not have the experience or wisdom that you bring to the table.
    Hopefully, they can gain perspective from what you have articulated . Unfortunately, I do not think it possible.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 2:18 am on Sat, May 5, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Congratulations! 308 words and no outright lie. That is quite an achievement for you. In honor of this achievement I shall now refer to you as Mr Portman instead of “The Liar” as I have in the past.

    I have laid out the case for Keynesian Economics many times here. I have described its operation and given its history using facts and logic. I have asked the following question many times:

    Name a country that has a substantial middle class that has not used Keynesian Economics.

    The silence is deafening.

    When I lay out the facts and history you, Robert Chapman, Joe Baxter and others just answer with personal attacks and nothing related to the actual argument that I am making.

    Your letter is a perfect example. The title is “Keynesan economics do not work” Look at your first paragraph:

    Mr. Lucas' fixation on one economist, John M. Keynes, as if he is the know-all of all things financial, is getting embarrassing. Keynes, who died in 1946, never saw what his theories on economics would bring in real life.

    You start off with a personal attack on me. You bring up when Keyes died and stated he never saw what his theories on economics would bring in real life. This is untrue for in WW II we had the biggest stimulus package in American history and the results were there for everyone to see.

    The next paragraph is :

    Most liberals have theories based on the fantasies of the utopian world they wish to live in — existing only in their minds. It can never exist in the real world, because human nature cannot be put in a neat box and followed by every human. No one is exactly the same, and as hard as the despotic tyrants have tried, humans cannot be forced to live the way the state wishes willingly. As individuals, we will rebel, which is why individualism is such a threat to authoritarian governments.

    This mishmash of nonsense has something to do with Keynesian Economics?

    The next paragraph:

    So how have Mr. Keynes' theories of governments spending money they don't have artificially increased employment and economic prosperity? A few examples: the Great Depression of the 1930s. Mr. Morgenthau Jr.'s — Roosevelt's Treasure Secretary — evaluation of FDR's economic plan said, "We have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever spent before, and it does not work ... We have never made good on our promises ... I say after eight years of this Administration we have just as much unemployment as when we started ... and an enormous debt to boot!"

    The unemployment rate was 10 points lower than 8 years before but two years later when the stimulus of WW II hit it dropped another 10 points. In 1928 the rate was 4.2%. austerity measures initiated by Hoover resulted in it going to 24.9 when Roosevelt came into office.

    The next Paragraph:

    Amity Shales, author of "The Forgotten Man: A New History of the Great Depression," stated the TVA dealt a mortal blow to a private employer who wanted to electrify the South, and did nothing to improve the systemic unemployment in the country.

    Economist Paul Krugman has criticized The Forgotten Man. He has taken issue with its central tenet that New Deal policies exacerbated the Great Depression. Krugman wrote of "a whole intellectual industry, mainly operating out of right-wing think tanks, devoted to propagating the idea that FDR actually made the Depression worse.... But the definitive study of fiscal policy in the 1930s, by the MIT economist E. Cary Brown, reached a very different conclusion: Fiscal stimulus was unsuccessful 'not because it does not work, but because it was not tried'."[30]

    The next two paragraphs:
    President Nixon, the man who gave us the EPA, long lines at gas stations and fixing prices in the private sector — a la Stalin — once proclaimed that, "We are all Keynesians now."
    Last but not least, Jimmy Carter on steroids, our own Obama. Enough said?

    Just two random attacks having nothing to do with subject at hand


    That is your letter. Some random quotes, some personal attacks on former presidents, some bewildering bs and a personal attack on me. There is not one argument made against any argument I have made. There is not an factual argument made against any facet of Keyes thinking. Your letter could have been written by someone who has not a clue as to what Keynesian Economics is. Mr. Portman, you bore me

     

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