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Letter was rife with misinformation

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Posted: Thursday, September 29, 2011 12:00 am | Updated: 6:31 am, Thu Sep 29, 2011.

William Van Amber Fields’ letter on Aug. 15, “Will the United States back a Palestinian State or our ally Israel,” was rife with misinformation. To begin with, Obama has already promised to veto the statehood motion, and Jews are not banned from Muslim nations.

There were many further inaccuracies. To wit:

Israel struck first in the Six Day War against its two secular neighbors. The land seized during the Six Day War was taken from the Palestinians, not the warring nations.

The statehood motion has nothing to do with the Golan Heights, and even less to do with Syria. It refers to the 1967 borders of the Palestinian territories, of which the Heights were not a part.

Jerusalem is already divided into East and West Jerusalem. The Arab population of East Jerusalem pays taxes to Israel, but receives neither representation nor infrastructure.

The settlements are on occupied territories. The transfer of a population into a militarily occupied territory is a war crime by international laws, and the settlers have less of an ancestral claim to their settlements than the Palestinians they illegally forced off the land.

According to Kairos Palestine (the voice of Christians in Palestine), “in the Bethlehem area alone there are 19 illegal Israeli settlements and only 13 percent of Bethlehem area is available for Palestinian (Christian) use and the wall isolates 25 percent of the Bethlehem area’s agricultural land.”

Kairos also stated that Christians are prevented from accessing holy sites and often removed from their land, never allowed to return.

The Holy Land has a universal mission of love, not exclusion.

Emma Lasher

Berkeley

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Welcome to the discussion.

55 comments:

  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 9:07 pm on Fri, Oct 7, 2011.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    I have no doubt K Lee...

     
  • Kim Lee posted at 4:30 pm on Thu, Oct 6, 2011.

    Kim Lee Posts: 1798

    The personal comments from a poster are more interesting (most of the time) than a ton of "cut and paste" paragraphs from websites. I don't even read the "cut and paste" posts anymore.

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 8:06 am on Wed, Oct 5, 2011.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2823

    Another clip:

    In France, large swaths of Muslim neighborhoods are now considered "no-go" zones by French police. At last count, there are 751 Sensitive Urban Zones (Zones Urbaines Sensibles, ZUS), as they are euphemistically called. A complete list of the ZUS can be found on a French government website, complete with satellite maps and precise street demarcations. An estimated 5 million Muslims live in the ZUS, parts of France over which the French state has lost control.

    Muslim immigrants are taking control of other parts of France too. In Paris and other French cities with high Muslim populations, such as Lyons, Marseilles and Toulouse, thousands of Muslims are closing off streets and sidewalks (and by extension, are closing down local businesses and trapping non-Muslim residents in their homes and offices) to accommodate overflowing crowds for Friday prayers. Some mosques have also begun broadcasting sermons and chants of "Allahu Akbar" via loudspeakers into the streets.

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 8:03 am on Wed, Oct 5, 2011.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2823

    http://www.hudson-ny.org/2367/european-muslim-no-go-zones


    European 'No-Go' Zones for Non-Muslims Proliferating
    "Occupation Without Tanks or Soldiers"

    Islamic extremists are stepping up the creation of "no-go" areas in European cities that are off-limits to non-Muslims.

    Many of the "no-go" zones function as microstates governed by Islamic Sharia law. Host-country authorities effectively have lost control in these areas and in many instances are unable to provide even basic public aid such as police, fire fighting and ambulance services.

    The "no-go" areas are the by-product of decades of multicultural policies that have encouraged Muslim immigrants to create parallel societies and remain segregated rather than become integrated into their European host nations.


    -Coming to a neighborhood near you in America if liberals keep their heads in the sand.

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 7:57 am on Wed, Oct 5, 2011.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2823

    Steve,

    You're misinformed about my whereabouts. The last time I was in Cal was a family trip to San Diego and Venice, CA in 2009. And I'll let others speculate what you meant with the scars question.

     
  • Steve Schmidt posted at 10:28 am on Mon, Oct 3, 2011.

    Steve Schmidt Posts: 2296

    Brian, how was the fair. Did you pick up any scars?

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 9:14 am on Mon, Oct 3, 2011.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2823

    It seems to me Emma may want us to believe if the Grand Mufti had not formed an alliance with Hitler in the mass extermination of Jews he would have welcomed them with open arms in the Middle East.

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 8:49 am on Mon, Oct 3, 2011.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2823

    Steve wrote:

    Heck, these animals don't even have oil, just a few piles of goat dung and some olives.


    -FRAKING AWESOME! This single sentence sums up Mr Schmidt in his entirety. Ignorance compounded by willful, pigheaded ignorance

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 8:27 am on Mon, Oct 3, 2011.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Emma stated...Mr. Baumbach, if you'd read my entire post you would have noted I also advised you to look at the Israeli Air Force website...

    Emma.. you sound like an intelligent person who can easily answer questions if you desire to do so.
    I did read your entire post...twice...I asked you a simple question that you avoided intentionally. To repeat, I asked you if you believe Al-jazeera is a fair and objective information source? You said there is a wonderful video on You Tube that confirmed your assertion. In my opinion, if your thinking as been shaped and influenced by this organization, it would explain your apparent bias. It does not matter if you take something out of context from the Israeli website to make your points appear accurate when you obviously appreciate and rely on what Al-jazeera broadcasts.

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 8:24 am on Mon, Oct 3, 2011.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2823

    http://histclo.com/essay/war/ww2/cou/pal/gm/gm-ber.html


    The NAZIs had an ally in the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem. He aplauded Hitler's seizure of power in Germany (1933). He was enthusiastic received by the "Islamische Zentralinstitut" and the small Islamic community of Germany which due deference to the NAZIs pronounced him the "Führer of the Arabic world." Husseini's first speech in Berlin denounced the Jews as the "most fierce enemies of the Muslims" and an "ever corruptive element" in the world. Husseini was an honored guest of the NAZI's in Berlin. He met with both Reichsführer SS Heinrich Himmler and Holocaust organizer Adolf Eichmann. Husseini is reported to have visited Auschwitz and encouraged the SS staff operating the gas chambers to work harder. Husseini was exploited by Goebbels' propaganda machine and made numerous broadcasts in Arabic to the Middle East promoting the NAZIs and giving virulently anti-Semitic sermons. Another largely ignored question is the fact that the Arabs are also semmites. NAZI racist science claimed that the Jews had genitically carried diseases. One wonders why the Arabs did not carry these diseases. Of course the NAZI racist science was a pseudo science so they could invent an Arab people free of such contamination. Husseini was an honored guest of the NAZI's in Berlin. He was received by Hitler twice. He pressed Hitler on the last group of Jews left in NAZI hands--the Hungarian Jews. He did not want them to be allowed to escape, fearing they would come to Palestine. Adolf Eichman at the time was attempting to negotiate with the British to exchange 5,000 Hungarian children for German POWs. Husseini's point of view prevalied. The SS were dispatched the children to the NAZI death camps in Poland. Husseini is reported to have visited Auschwitz and encouraged the SS staff operating the gas chambers to work harder. Husseini was exploited by Goebbels' propaganda machine and made numerous broadcasts in Arabic to the Middle East promoting the NAZIs and giving virulently anti-Semitic sermons.


     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 8:18 am on Mon, Oct 3, 2011.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2823

    Emma wrote:

    And for the majority of the last thousand years, the Muslim population of the Middle East has been far more welcoming towards the Jews than the Christian Europeans.

    -Chuckle,

    You really need to contact the people I mentioned in my last 2 posts.

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 8:03 am on Mon, Oct 3, 2011.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2823

    Oh,

    And Frank Gaffney and Steve Emerson need a good laugh too.

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 8:00 am on Mon, Oct 3, 2011.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2823

    Emma,

    Has the thought ever occurred to you if you were to move to a more conservative area of the country you might actually have a chance at learning the truth about this subject instead of advancing lie after lie? And I don't know how you can believe Jews feel comfortable living in Iran under the control of mullahs and imams who want to see every Jew dead and Israel wiped off the face of the Earth. I strongly suggest you get in touch with Robert Spencer, Walid Shoebat, or Brigette Gabrielle and have a discussion with them. Of course it won't take them very long to figure you out that you're just another one of those Muslim Apologists who blame all the ills of Muslims on the Great Satan, America.

     
  • Emma Lasher posted at 8:22 pm on Sun, Oct 2, 2011.

    Emma Lasher Posts: 4

    Mr. Baumbach, if you'd read my entire post you would have noted I also advised you to look at the Israeli Air Force website. The information it provides corresponds with that provided by Al-Jazeera and the information I wrote.

    And Mr. Paglia, Egypt was massing on the border because they were informed by Russian intelligence that Israel was going to launch a strike. As it turns out, the Russian intelligence was right.

    Mr. Dockter, the link you provided has a list of hundreds of Jews who have ever voiced criticism against Israel, then goes on to urge attacks on these Jews and provides their contact information. That can hardly be seen as a neutral, fair, reliable, or trustworthy source. In fact, it is downright despicable. And for the majority of the last thousand years, the Muslim population of the Middle East has been far more welcoming towards the Jews than the Christian Europeans. In fact, to this day Iran has a Jewish population that dates back thousands of years. These Iranian Jews have no desire to leave, face little to no discrimination, receive constitutional guarantees of parliamentary representation (they will always have a member of parliament from the Jewish community, no matter their size), have received guarantees and protection from the Ayatollah himself, and are overrepresented in Parliament if you look at it in terms of population.
    Further, your statements about the Palestinian Christian community betray your ignorance on the topic. I'd advise you to read what the Christian's themselves are saying: http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=398618
    http://wearewideawake.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2101&Itemid=247
    http://www.kairospalestine.ps/sites/default/Documents/English.pdf
    Jerusalem should be shared because the General Partition plan, the one that gave birth to the state of Israel, declared it to be an international city. Israel occupied Jerusalem in contravention of the very resolution that gave it it's birth. The Arab residents of East Jerusalem have no political representation, receive next to nothing in terms of infrastructure, are constantly subordinated and expelled from their homes in favour of Jewish only settlements and constructions, and still pay taxes to the state of Israel. It's taxation without representation.
    Finally, at no point have the "Arab nations" tried to "exterminate" Israel. The Israeli War of Independence was fought entirely on the land reserved for the Palestinian state, and once the Arab nations had occupied the Palestinian territories they openly squabbled amongst themselves to become the first nation to sign a peace treaty with Israel.

    Mr. Bransom, the fact that the Palestinians had no state doesn't come close to justifying their expulsion from their ancestral land. They had a right not to be expelled, a right not abridged by their lack of a proper state.
    The Declaration of Principles, signed 18 years ago and agreed to by Israel and the PLO, was supposed to lead to a Palestinian state within 5 years. The PLO laid down their weapons and held to their end of the treaty. Yet in those 18 years, Israel has tripled it's settler-colonial population in the West Bank in clear contravention of the treaty. The Palestinians laid down their weapons for years it got them nowhere. Should it come as a surprise that when peaceful methods are exhausted, an oppressed population turns to violent ones? It is wrong, certainly, but not surprising.
    And finally Mr. Bransom, America doesn't have the spotless reputation of delivering freedom that you seem to believe. America is directly responsible for the continued existence of Saudi, Yemeni, and Bahraini dictatorships, and was also responsible for the (now ended) Mubarak regime. It collaborated with the Libyan government by turning over Libyan dissidents to the security forces. It supplied Saddam Hussein with the weapons he used to gas the Kurds. It supported and aided the Franquist rule of Spain, as well as overthrowing the democratically elected government of Iran, the democratically elected government of the DRC, and the democratically elected government of Chile. In all three of those cases, the U.S. aided and abetted the subsequent dictatorships.

     
  • Steve Schmidt posted at 2:37 pm on Sun, Oct 2, 2011.

    Steve Schmidt Posts: 2296

    Jerry wrote "America freed the entire middle east from German occupation in WW2. "

    FRAKING AWESOME! This single sentence sums up Mr Bransom in his entirety. Ignorance compounded by willful, pigheaded ignorance.

    First of all, while German troops did occupy Libya and some of the French colonies in North Africa, there was no German occupation of the Middle East. Even in Syria, which was briefly controlled remotely by the Vichy FRENCH government, it was not American troops that restored Allied control but Free French and British troops. In fact, with the exception of a few advisers, there was no meaningful American military presence whatsoever in the Mid East during WWII.

    Please Jerry, go to the library, read a couple of books and come back when you are capable of participating in an adult conversation. Until then, you are just embarrassing yourself.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 10:01 am on Sun, Oct 2, 2011.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Jerry... great post... I do appreciate your perspective.

     
  • Jerry Bransom posted at 8:17 am on Sun, Oct 2, 2011.

    Jerry Bransom Posts: 363

    Steve, I did not misunderstand your post. America was founded on the principles of freedom. Therefore, real Americans fight oppression no matter what shape it takes. To do otherwise is an insult to those who founded this country. Maybe your roots do not reach as far back as mine and you cannot understand this principle.

    Right or wrong, we are the only outpost of freedom anywhere in the world. it is a result of laws, democracy, relationships and military power. Yes, we make mistakes. We do our best not to, but Israel is no mistake. To abandon them is impossible and immoral, though I agree some aid is over the top. Also to assume they are just "goats and olives" is proof of your questionable knowledge towards them. Israel produces metal products, electronic and biomedical equipment, food, chemicals, trucks, tractors and excellent software. They have turned their "goats and olives" into a productive paradise and an outpost of freedom in a land of insane Arabs. They must meet this insanity with absolute power. Anything less would be a mistake VS. a people who do not respect the laws of men.

    You are exactly right.. what have Arabs done? They kill anyone smart - teachers, free thinkers, peaceful protesters. They oppress Women. They should thank an American serviceman for their freedom. America freed the entire middle east from German occupation in WW2. And Mr. Obama just freed Libya and no thanks to repubicans, GW Bush's dream of a free middle east is upon us. But people like you will never understand the big picture and the importance of planning ahead. You only care about money and your opinion.

     
  • Steve Schmidt posted at 6:28 pm on Sat, Oct 1, 2011.

    Steve Schmidt Posts: 2296

    Jerry, you may speak to your own ignorance but I actually have more than a passing acquaintance with the history of the region.

    That said, you misunderstood my post. I find the actions of both sides in this conflict to be completely unjustifiable. These people are all cold blooded murderers who kill women and children without compunction or restraint.

    What I cannot understand is why this country feels obligated to take a side in this barbarian battle, much less spend billions of dollars in foreign aid welfare. As I said before, we have no national interest in this region. Heck, these animals don't even have oil, just a few piles of goat dung and some olives.

     
  • Steve Schmidt posted at 5:04 pm on Sat, Oct 1, 2011.

    Steve Schmidt Posts: 2296

    Chuckle....


    I just thought you might stop by on your way to the fair.

     
  • Jerry Bransom posted at 5:01 pm on Sat, Oct 1, 2011.

    Jerry Bransom Posts: 363

    Steve, you really need to stop taking things out of context. The Oslo Accords marks the escalation of Palestinian (Arab) Terrorism. Let's not try to rewrite history when we know so little about it. How far do you have to go back to justify a man's killing of another? Ridiculous argument!

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 4:49 pm on Sat, Oct 1, 2011.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2823

    Steve,

    No. I haven't been to Lodi since 2002.

     
  • Steve Schmidt posted at 1:36 pm on Sat, Oct 1, 2011.

    Steve Schmidt Posts: 2296

    Jerry, you leave out the fact that Jewish terrorists had been assassinating any one in Palestine who opposed their goals since at least the early 1930s

     
  • Steve Schmidt posted at 12:48 pm on Sat, Oct 1, 2011.

    Steve Schmidt Posts: 2296

    Brian, are you in town this weekend?

     
  • Jerry Bransom posted at 11:53 am on Sat, Oct 1, 2011.

    Jerry Bransom Posts: 363

    People.. lets get some perspective. After Germany nearly gassed to death every Jew and put every Arab under slave rule, Americans saved all their butts and voted with the UN to partition the land (1/2 for Jews, 1/2 for Arab Palis) captured by the British & Americans when they drove out the Germans. Palestine was no more sovereign than America was when my ancestors came here in the 1700's. However, the Arabs(Muslims), still to this day a war-like people, immediately attacked all those poor holocaust survivors and tried to pull a Hitler on the Jews again. It should be obvious to everyone by now that Arabs - particularly Muslims - want nothing better to do than sit around telling people how to live their lives and making war if you ignore them. At least Jews are friendly. I applaud their skill. All they needed was a little help.

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 8:21 am on Sat, Oct 1, 2011.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2823

    1) There never was a Palestinian state or a Palestinian nation. There are no Palestinian people, per se. Rather, these are Arabs living in a region that historically has been called many things, including "Palestine."

    2) Israel did not go to war against a Palestinian state and occupy its land. Rather, Israel was attacked by six Arab countries at once. She defended herself, defeated her attackers, and won the so-called territories, not from the Palestinians, but from Jordan and Egypt.

    3) Jerusalem was never the capital of any state but Israel. It was certainly never the capital of a country that never existed. Why should the Palestinians get any part of it? Because they want it? Because they have terrorists?

    4) Jerusalem, under the current Israeli control, is a free and open city. Israel, as a democracy, guarantees freedom of religion within its borders. Contrast this fact with areas that have come under Palestinian occupation. What percentage of Christians have left in recent years because they cannot stand the harassment and persecution?

    5) Most Arabs living in Palestine today are not indigenous to the region. It was not until after the Jews had changed deserts and swamps into a productive and thriving land that the Arabs started migrating there. Arafat himself was born and raised in Cairo, Egypt. Did you know that?

    The belief that giving the Palestinians a state will bring peace is a delusion. The truth is that they want it all. The short-term goal is a state consisting of the West Bank and Gaza. The long-term goal is a state which includes all of "historical Palestine," including Jordan.

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 8:17 am on Sat, Oct 1, 2011.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2823

    http://www.masada2000.org/been-had.html


    Did you know that there was never any country called Palestine? Did you know that there is no such thing as a Palestinian people?

    The ideas that the West Bank and Gaza are occupied Palestinian land, and that the Palestinian people are fighting for their land, have been accepted by most of the governments of the world and by most of the media in the world. But if you read on, you will see that these two claims are the biggest lies ever deliberately perpetrated on humanity.

    Check out any map of the Middle East and see for yourself. You will find Palestine listed as a region as it always has been, but definitely not a country. We can locate the Mojave Desert on the map, but we still do not recognize it as our 51st state, let alone a country. Similarly, the region of Siberia is a region not a state. Or the Sahara is a region not a state, etc. Neither is Palestine a state. It never was a country, just a region.

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 8:13 am on Sat, Oct 1, 2011.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2823

    Emma wrote:

    This is how Israel responds to nonviolent activism.

    -Regardless what Israel does, the Palestinians won't be happy until there is no Israel.


     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 8:06 am on Sat, Oct 1, 2011.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2823

    MYTH

    “The Palestinian Arabs were never offered a state and therefore have been denied the right to self-determination.”

    FACT
    The Peel Commission in 1937 concluded the only logical solution to resolving the contradictory aspirations of the Jews and Arabs was to partition Palestine into separate Jewish and Arab states. The Arabs rejected the plan because it forced them to accept the creation of a Jewish state, and required some Palestinians to live under "Jewish domination." The Zionists opposed the Peel Plan's boundaries because they would have been confined to little more than a ghetto of 1,900 out of the 10,310 square miles remaining in Palestine. Nevertheless, the Zionists decided to negotiate with the British, while the Arabs refused to consider any compromises.

    Again, in 1939, the British White Paper called for the establishment of an Arab state in Palestine within 10 years, and for limiting Jewish immigration to no more than 75,000 over the following five years. Afterward, no one would be allowed in without the consent of the Arab population. Though the Arabs had been granted a concession on Jewish immigration, and been offered independence — the goal of Arab nationalists — they repudiated the White Paper.

    With partition, the Palestinians were given a state and the opportunity for self-determination. This too was rejected.

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 7:56 am on Sat, Oct 1, 2011.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2823

    From this site.

    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf3.html

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 7:55 am on Sat, Oct 1, 2011.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2823

    Myths & Facts Online
    Partition

    MYTH

    “The United Nations unjustly partitioned Palestine.”

    FACT

    As World War II ended, the magnitude of the Holocaust became known. This accelerated demands for a resolution to the question of Palestine so the survivors of Hitler's "Final Solution" might find sanctuary in a homeland of their own.

    The British tried to work out an agreement acceptable to both Arabs and Jews, but their insistence on the former's approval guaranteed failure because the Arabs would not make any concessions. They subsequently turned the issue over to the UN in February 1947.

    The UN established a Special Commission on Palestine (UNSCOP) to devise a solution. Delegates from 11 nations* went to the area and found what had long been apparent: The conflicting national aspirations of Jews and Arabs could not be reconciled.

    The contrasting attitudes of the two groups "could not fail to give the impression that the Jews were imbued with the sense of right and were prepared to plead their case before any unbiased tribunal, while the Arabs felt unsure of the justice of their cause, or were afraid to bow to the judgment of the nations."1

    Although most of the Commission's members acknowledged the need to find a compromise solution, it was difficult for them to envision one given the parties' intractability. At a meeting with a group of Arabs in Beirut, the Czechoslovakian member of the Commission told his audience: "I have listened to your demands and it seems to me that in your view the compromise is: We want our demands met completely, the rest can be divided among those left."2

    When they returned, the delegates of seven nations — Canada, Czechoslovakia, Guatemala, The Netherlands, Peru, Sweden and Uruguay — recommended the establishment of two separate states, Jewish and Arab, to be joined by economic union, with Jerusalem an internationalized enclave. Three nations — India, Iran and Yugoslavia — recommended a unitary state with Arab and Jewish provinces. Australia abstained.

    The Jews of Palestine were not satisfied with the small territory allotted to them by the Commission, nor were they happy that Jerusalem was severed from the Jewish State; nevertheless, they welcomed the compromise. The Arabs rejected the UNSCOP's recommendations.

    The ad hoc committee of the UN General Assembly rejected the Arab demand for a unitary Arab state. The majority recommendation for partition was subsequently adopted 33-13 with 10 abstentions on November 29, 1947.3

     
  • Andy Crowder posted at 7:55 pm on Fri, Sep 30, 2011.

    Andy Crowder Posts: 245

    They're killing each other over who has the best imaginary friend.

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 7:44 pm on Fri, Sep 30, 2011.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2823

    Emma wrote:

    Mr. Dockter,
    America was supplying Israel with arms and weapons decades before the Islamic Republic of Iran came into being.

    Hmm,

    Other Islamic countries in the region have also supplied arms to Palestinians long before the IRI came into being. The point is, it hasn't always been Iran that wants to wipe Israel off the map. Islam, in general does not want Israel to be recognized or exist. Islam ousted the Jews out of the Middle East before. They are just at it again. It's not just a recent thing, Emma. You seem to have forgotten what the Ottomans did.

     
  • Steve Schmidt posted at 4:19 pm on Fri, Sep 30, 2011.

    Steve Schmidt Posts: 2296

    The fact is that both sides are murderous barbarians with the blood of tens of thousands on their hands. There is no reason whatsoever for the United States to take sides in this prison riot.

     
  • Steve Schmidt posted at 4:16 pm on Fri, Sep 30, 2011.

    Steve Schmidt Posts: 2296

    Darrell wrote: May I ask, do you believe Al-jazeera is a fair and objective information source?

    To be fair, I think my other brother has a point there. Al-Jazeera is the FOX News of the Mideast.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 2:52 pm on Fri, Sep 30, 2011.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    And Mr. Baumbach, what information of mine was incorrect? I've checked and rechecked my facts, but I've yet to find any inaccuracy...

    I would not be surprised if you found no errors or deletions of facts with the sources you referenced.
    Truth is in the eye of the beholder from my perspective. If General Grant and Robert E Lee each wrote a book about their truth in the Civil War, I'm sure each would see what happened completely different.

    In your account of the six day war, Israel struck first against its two secular neighbors. The land seized during the Six Day War was taken from the Palestinians, not the warring nations. In my view, this is incomplete and distorted.

    According to http://www.sixdaywar.org/precursors.asp , there were many variables and circumstances that you conveniently left off that made your point appear black and white... In fact...
    The Six-Day War, the third major Arab-Israeli conflict, was in a sense a continuation of the first two wars. Broadly speaking, the causes of the fighting in 1967 overlapped with the causes of fighting in 1948 (Arab rejection of Israel) and 1956 (continued rejectionism and an Egyptian blockade of shipping to Israel). Specifically, the war stemmed from Egypt's decision to expel United Nations troops from the Sinai peninsula and blockade Israel's port of Eilat, under international law a casus belli, or act of war, in addition to Arab threats to destroy Israel. Much of the above could be traced to Soviet meddling and misinformation.

    Unfortunately, your facts are very narrow in focus and blatantly biased.

     
  • Kevin Paglia posted at 2:52 pm on Fri, Sep 30, 2011.

    Kevin Paglia Posts: 1987

    If the Mexican army amassed along our border with tanks, artillery and thousands of infantry, released press statements that they were going to retake south-west US back into their control would we wait for them to strike first and kill thousands of innocent civilians or would we send our military to preemptively strike a clearly hostile force that was about to strike us?

    If not for US aide, in all forms, then Israel and millions of Israelites would have been slaughtered in the name of religious resentment.

    Both sides have done horrendous acts. How much compassion would we have for a group who massacred our Olympic athletes? If you look back on US history, how did we respond when the displaced indian tribes attacked US forces? The military hunted them down and slaughtered them. What did the US government do at Wacko when FBI agents were killed? Now would the US just hand over a portion of it's land to a group of people a large portion of listen to or support murdering every single American? Or would we say that was ridiculous and fight that land grab in the name of national security?

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 2:26 pm on Fri, Sep 30, 2011.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Emma stated...There's an excellent documentary by Al-Jazeera on Youtube.

    May I ask, do you believe Al-jazeera is a fair and objective information source?

     
  • Emma Lasher posted at 1:32 pm on Fri, Sep 30, 2011.

    Emma Lasher Posts: 4

    As for the allegations that Israel did not strike first in the 6 Day War, I'd advise you to look up Operation Focus. There's an excellent documentary by Al-Jazeera on Youtube. If that's not enough, you can look up the 6 Day War on the Israeli Air Force website. They state quite clearly that the IAF attacked first.

     
  • Emma Lasher posted at 1:18 pm on Fri, Sep 30, 2011.

    Emma Lasher Posts: 4

    Mr. Dockter,
    America was supplying Israel with arms and weapons decades before the Islamic Republic of Iran came into being. Further, your comments relating to Palestinians laying down their weapons are grossly inaccurate. The PLO laid down their weapons decades ago. Nothing changed, Israel continued to take more and more land, so different groups sprang up. The Palestinians who protest nonviolently every week (I'm thinking of Jawaher Abu Rahmah specifically, although unfortunately there are are many others) are fired upon with rubber bullets and teargas, sent to jail on ridiculous charges, and occasionally killed. Within Israel, a bill was recently enacted to fine and jail those Israeli citizens who just speak in support of the nonviolent boycott of settlement goods. This is how Israel responds to nonviolent activism.

    And Mr. Baumbach, what information of mine was incorrect? I've checked and rechecked my facts, but I've yet to find any inaccuracy. If you care to inform me I'll address it immediately.

     
  • Steve Schmidt posted at 10:32 am on Fri, Sep 30, 2011.

    Steve Schmidt Posts: 2296

    Arguing about whether the Israelis are better than the Palestinians is like arguing about whether perverts who molest girls are better than perverts who molest boys.

     
  • Alex Kennedy posted at 9:34 am on Fri, Sep 30, 2011.

    Alex Posts: 215

    DB stated: "You pretend that one side is angelic and the other side hellish. From my perspective, you are not objective and have a distorted view of reality"

    Both sides are hellish and if you think Israel is anything but, your relaity is distorted. Happy people who dont feel subjuagated and victimized don't blow themselves up.

     
  • Steve Schmidt posted at 9:21 am on Fri, Sep 30, 2011.

    Steve Schmidt Posts: 2296

    Hey Brian, are you here in town? I thought I saw you the other day.

     
  • Alex Kennedy posted at 9:10 am on Fri, Sep 30, 2011.

    Alex Posts: 215

    Mr. B,

    For starters, you never answered my question: Do you really believe America's unilateral support of Israel has not fomented resentment against us by its Arab neighbors?

    Second, what about Rachael Corrie, a young American who was run over by an Israeli bulldozer while protesting the unlawful demolition of Palestinian homes and water wells. We paid for those bulldozers.

    Hamas killed three Israeli civilians in late 2008, Israel retaliated with a siege on Gaza killing 1300 people, 400 of which were CHILDREN. At one point, they bombed a UN school clearly full of civilians.

    Aside from atrocities committed by Israel’s army, Israeli citizens commit terrorist attacks on the Arab population regularly even more regularly than Palestinian terrorists strike Israelis.

    United Nations Refugee Commission reports that 5,000,000 Palestinians are considered refugees. Either displaced during an initial conflicts (48, 76) or descendents of those originally displaced. Israel will not allow any right of return to these people but continually drafts new “Jewish” citizens from all over the world, giving them rights that Palestinians can barley dream of.

    Israel takes 80% of the water from aquifers in the West Bank. The international community has been coming down on them for years about this.

    Whenever a lone Palestinian terrorist attacks Israel retaliates by collectively punishing the community the terrorists are from, demolishing homes and launching rockets.

    I do not in any way think we should support either side. I hate the fact that our planes, guns, bullets, gasses, cluster bombs, and nukes are at Israel’s disposal to use how they wish. There have been countless reports detailing their atrocities, most recently, the Goldstone report. We have a financial mess at home and should not be spending billions to mediate or perpetuate something so clearly not in our interest. Israel does not even respect us.

    And Brian,

    Did you ever consider that Iran may feel that it has to supply Palestinian militants with weapons becuase America is supplying the Israelis? Also, if Palestinians lay down their guns there would be no Palestine. Israel would simply continue to do what it has been doing for decades, annex arab land piece by piece, slowly taking back all the land "God promised them."

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 8:47 am on Fri, Sep 30, 2011.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2823

    Alex,

    Perhaps if Iran were to stop supplying the Palestinians with arms with the sole intent of destroying israel, the U.S. would not have to help defend Israel by supplying them with arms.

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 8:41 am on Fri, Sep 30, 2011.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2823

    I remember when Israel handed over some land to the Palestinians that had greenhouses on it. Instead of profiting from this. The Palestinians destroyed the greenhouses.

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 8:03 am on Fri, Sep 30, 2011.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2823

    Alex,

    If the Palestinians were to lay down their guns there would be peace. However, If Israel were to lay down THEIR guns there would be massive bloodshed. Think about it.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 6:44 pm on Thu, Sep 29, 2011.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Alex... there are two sides to every story. You only have one side and view.
    Both sides of this conflict have valid concerns. Both sides have committed vilolence.
    That is what happens in a conflict . You pretend that one side is angelic and the other side hellish. From my perspective, you are not objective and have a distorted view of reality.

     
  • Alex Kennedy posted at 2:07 pm on Thu, Sep 29, 2011.

    Alex Posts: 215

    Darrell,

    We, as Americans pay for the guns, bullets, bombs, tanks, fighter jets, and gasses that Israel uses against the Palestinians. There is no way Israel could even begin to pay for its own defense. When Israel has shown, time and time again, its disregard for Geneva Conventions, U.N resolutions and direct American pleas, why are we, as Americans, continuing to support them. Now, we have to look like a bunch of one-sided hypocrites when we become the only country to veto the Palestinian bid for statehood at the UN. Things like that make us look terrible in the eyes of the world Also, what lie did I tell? Hate may have been a strong word, but do you really believe America's unilateral support of Israel has not fomented resentment against us by its Arab neighbors?

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 12:56 pm on Thu, Sep 29, 2011.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Alex Kennedy stated....No wonder the Arab world hates us. We should not be sending Israel a dime muchless billions of dollars a year.
    The Arab world does not hate us Alex. Some people in Arab countries hate us just as some Democrats hate Republicans enough to call all tea party participants racists... When one tells a lie long enough, sometimes it becomes a false truth. When people like you make irresponsible propaganda appear to be truth, then people who do hate us use you as evidence that they are justified in violence. Just think Alex, your actions contributes to killing people. Was that your intent?

     
  • Kevin Paglia posted at 11:08 am on Thu, Sep 29, 2011.

    Kevin Paglia Posts: 1987

    What facts did they get wrong?

     
  • Joanne Bobin posted at 10:13 am on Thu, Sep 29, 2011.

    Joanne Bobin Posts: 4488

    http://www.sixdaywar.org/myths-and-facts.asp

    Like getting the news of the attack on the henhouse from the fox.

    Great comment, Mr. Schmidt.

     
  • Alex Kennedy posted at 10:11 am on Thu, Sep 29, 2011.

    Alex Posts: 215

    I think if Americans really truly understood the brutal, unrelenting nature of the occupation there is no way we would continue to support it. Israel and its friends depend on this misinformation to defend their Apartide state and continue their unjust treatment of the Palestinian people. No wonder the Arab world hates us. We should not be sending Israel a dime muchless billions of dollars a year.

     
  • Steve Schmidt posted at 8:04 am on Thu, Sep 29, 2011.

    Steve Schmidt Posts: 2296

    I don't see why the US supports either of these gangs of thugs. They don't even have any oil. Let them resolve the matter themselves and we can negotiate with the survivors to import their dates, goat dung and whatever else that region produces.

     
  • Kevin Paglia posted at 7:13 am on Thu, Sep 29, 2011.

    Kevin Paglia Posts: 1987

    http://www.sixdaywar.org/myths-and-facts.asp

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 6:49 am on Thu, Sep 29, 2011.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Humm...was the title of this letter in reference to the content of Ms Lasher's
    or Mr Field's letter. Looks like it could go either way.

     

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