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Letter: Questions remain about the accidental gun discharge in Lodi

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Posted: Tuesday, September 17, 2013 12:00 am

This is in regards to “Lodi SWAT officer accidentally shot” — should state “negligent discharge!”

First, one report stated that the trigger was pulled by the youngster while the weapon was still holstered. I have never seen a modern day tactical holster with the trigger exposed. Triggers are buried deep within the holster body for added protection of the officer.

Second, the Glock may not have an external safety; however, this weapon was surely double-action fire on the first round. This would mean that the youngster would have to pull the trigger as if it were a revolver. That’s a long, hard pull for a 6-year-old.

Something isn’t right here. Negligence on the officer’s part? Luckily it was only a flesh wound to him and not a fatal for someone else.

Randy Braziel

Folsom

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Welcome to the discussion.

18 comments:

  • Mike Adams posted at 6:35 pm on Wed, Sep 18, 2013.

    Mike Adams Posts: 1383

    Submarines find other submarines by the noise they make (or in some extreme situations, by the absence of sound). Now humans aren't shooting at someone 30 miles away, but with the right shooter and conditions, I think a blind shot wouldn't be that hard to make.

    Maybe if people in a crowd didn't want to get shot at by some blind man, they shouldn't stand around someone who is going to get shot at.

     
  • Mike Adams posted at 4:57 pm on Wed, Sep 18, 2013.

    Mike Adams Posts: 1383

    Well actually...... it is quite conceivable that someone could fire accuratly at a noise. You have two ears so you have stereo hearing, just like you have two ears. I'm quite certain in years past I could have shot accurately in the direction of a sound with a good chance of hitting the target. In pitch black darkness, I'd put money on a blind shooter against a sighted shooter.

    Needless to say, crowds would be a problem, but only to the extent that you can separate your target from all the other noise and not knowing if someone was between you and the target or what might be standing behind the target.

     
  • robert maurer posted at 12:33 pm on Wed, Sep 18, 2013.

    mason day Posts: 445

    Regarding the cop Joanne wrote about in her Wed.8:01am comment: That cop sounds like he should be demoted to the "records" department and banned from being anywhere around guns, let alone owning them and his family too. He made no sense at all. There's only one thing I've heard in my life regarding blind people that sounded this ridiculous,at a Society for the Blind event,2 guys hadn't communicated for some time, and 1 said to the other,"Good to see you again!" and both laughed

     
  • Joanne Bobin posted at 8:01 am on Wed, Sep 18, 2013.

    Joanne Bobin Posts: 4488

    I listened to the interview the other day on NPR with the sheriff (or police chief) in Iowa who has authorized BLIND people to obtain gun permits. Hey, why not? No one should have their second amendment rights restricted by handicaps, right?

    Not coincidentally, this sheriff has a blind daughter who he claims should not be denied her rights to own a gun.

    The interviewer was a bit perplexed when the sheriff stated that a blind person would certainly NOT shoot simply in the direction of a "voice," thus avoiding an "accidental" shooting, but rather shoot (excuse the expression) "blindly" at an imagined target because an attacker would most likely be very close by rather than at a distance and probably wouldn't be talking either, which would make them a target.??????

    Someone please explain THIS tactic/reasoning!

     
  • Mike Adams posted at 6:45 am on Wed, Sep 18, 2013.

    Mike Adams Posts: 1383

    " Pray and spray is not very affective"...No truer words have been spoken here.

    Unfortunately, this is what police officers are taught today. At the first whim of trouible, they all pull their guns and empty their magazines in the direction of the problem. For the bad guy, all he needs to do is stand still as this is the safest place in the world. Oh eventually someone will get lucky and actually hit the bad guy like in the left thumb, but by then their on their last magazine.

    An old statistic used to always be used: The average shootout takes place at less then 21 feet and involves 2.7 shots fired by everyone in toto. I wonder what it is now? The proliferation of high capacity magazines means more wasted ammo. More errant shots going downrange, hitting who? The cops said they needed larger cap magazines because the bad guys all had 'em. I think the real reason is that, by shooting enough bullets, the officer would accidently hit his/her intended target.

    "I shot him everytime he moved.' 'He moved everytime I shot."

    Maybe the LPD could practice shooting targets portraying criminals and not each other or themselves.

     
  • Ed Walters posted at 8:18 pm on Tue, Sep 17, 2013.

    the old dog Posts: 519

    It would seem that everyone that posted today is in favor of an simi-auto, while I agree, before the advent of the 10 round clip, and revolvers were used and the "hot load" was popular, at one time in compition only, contests were held to see how fast an auto could be reloaded compaired to a revolver using a hot load. Though the revolver is like the modle T, in some cases the S&W .38 cal. Stubby is used as an ankle holster and can prove most effective when the auto is out of ammo. After all, if your good it only takes one round to complete the mission. However you can never carry enough ammo, especially if your life is on the line. In the Corps you fired at something, not at anything. Pray and spray is not very affective.

     
  • robert maurer posted at 7:37 pm on Tue, Sep 17, 2013.

    mason day Posts: 445

    I share your thoughts about this,Joanne, but, they learned something from this "accident", so LPD claims. What did they learn? Maybe at demos, they'll start with a full clip and an empty chamber, or an empty gun and full clip in their pocket. It's quicker and easier to chamber a round on a slide action handgun than it is to fumble around with a safety in an emergency, according to some experts. It just takes a little practice. ... And "a woman with the child who fired the gun left, and so far has not yet been identified." But, they are checking security videos. (Laughable) One could say that LPD "dodged a bullet" this time, but that is not entirely true.Fortunately only one life is alterred and none ended....this time....

     
  • Joanne Bobin posted at 6:11 pm on Tue, Sep 17, 2013.

    Joanne Bobin Posts: 4488

    Thank you for the information, Mr. Adams and Mr. Maurer. What I don't understand is the statement from the police chief that SWAT officers need to be prepared (paraphrasing the essence here) to shoot and kill no matter where they are.

    Seriously? If officers are attending an event like the one at which this shooting occurred, one at which most attendees were children, why in the world would they need to be prepared for an all-out assault by outside "forces?"

    Seems like if there is some "evidence" that the venue might be the target of a terrorist style attack, it would either be cancelled, or SWAT officers uninvolved in "demonstrations of SWAT stuff" would be posted around the event.

    If this is not clear evidence of policy gone wrong, I don't know what would be.

     
  • robert maurer posted at 4:36 pm on Tue, Sep 17, 2013.

    mason day Posts: 445

    I totally agree with Mike's tue.3:45pm comments. And back to Joanne's question about who was making stuff up; the letter writer or LPD? In my opinion,neither since technically the Glock's safety mechanism is the blade in the slot of the trigger which prevents accidental discharge if any part of the trigger is depressed without the blade being depressed, yet it has no on/off safety button to positively lock the trigger. Why anybody likes unsafe guns like these are beyond me. They are accidents waiting to happen.

     
  • Mike Adams posted at 3:45 pm on Tue, Sep 17, 2013.

    Mike Adams Posts: 1383

    OK....good to know. I've only got one Gen 4, the 31C. That and about 10 G22 mags.

    Going back to Joanne's earlier querry, from the one's I've talked to, most cops aren't that into guns. Yea, they got to learn about the ones they carry and the ones the department has, but overall they know about guns what I know about fishing poles and reels.

    I think this was just a sad incident and we're fortunate no one was seriously injured.
    I have questioned the LPD's decision to carry Glocks when the first got them. While it's not particularly sophisticated (once you get past the polymer body), disassembly, checking for a loaded round in the chamber , no visible hammer, trigger safety, etc., these require some experience and expertise to carry though safely. I think they would have been better off with a Beretta, HK, or Sig....which are more sophisticated, yet the points listed above are less fraught with danger.

    But then again, I'm a revolver guy. There is great comfort in wrapping your hand around a nice 586 with pachmyer grips, or even a 2nd Model Hand Ejector in 45 Colt. I KNOW these will always shoot as long as there is ammo in the chambers. They will never jam and I can really shoot single action or double action.

     
  • robert maurer posted at 3:33 pm on Tue, Sep 17, 2013.

    mason day Posts: 445

    The us.glock website has 3 diagrams;1 for each safety feature highlighted in blue for easy identification and explanations for each. Excellent basic explanation of the slotted safety trigger, Mike. See how easy it is for even knowledgeable Glock owners to have different opinions regarding trigger safeties, and I'm sure there are different internal and external safety devices on various models and years.

     
  • robert maurer posted at 3:12 pm on Tue, Sep 17, 2013.

    mason day Posts: 445

    Glocks have a trigger safety,firing pin safety, and drop safety. All part of the "autosafety" feature Mike described. It is standard on generation 4 Glocks. See us.glock.com/technology/safe-action.

     
  • Mike Adams posted at 12:06 pm on Tue, Sep 17, 2013.

    Mike Adams Posts: 1383

    Robert is not quite correct. A Glock "Auto Safe" pistol has 1 safety that is located in a slot in the trigger. When you squeeze the trigger, you depress the safety which allows the hammer to hit on the firing pin. You can squeeze the trigger without activating the safety but the trigger will not go all the way back enough to shoot the gun. It is not easy to do this nor does it make any sense to do this after youi've proved to yourself that it actually won't work. Glocks can be fired only if the trigger and safety are depressed. They can' t go off if you drop them or run over them.

    Unfortunatly this feature also means that it the trigger gets snagged by clothing (or the finger of a curious young boy) and goes all the way back along with the safety, the gun will fire. This is why there are 2 things you never do with a Glock. One is use lead cast bullets and stick a loaded Glock in your waistband or pocket. That is unless you want to kick over to that other letter today and become a "transexual".

    Because of this "Safe Action", you can't just shove a Glock into any old holster. In general, the trigger should be enclosed in the holster. Now some specialized units might have a different holster set-up like SWAT who might be called on to rapidly access their sidearm with the least amount of hinderence.

    I own 4 Glocks. They are pretty much the only new firearms I use. They are durable. I've never never had any sort of malfunction. Glocks have been packed with mud, sand, durt, water you name it. Shake it off, put a round in the chamber and it will shoot. They've even been left in the ocean for a year, loaded and worked flawlessly. They've had hundreds of thousands of raounds put through them and required only a new magazine to continue to operate.

     
  • Mike Adams posted at 12:03 pm on Tue, Sep 17, 2013.

    Mike Adams Posts: 1383

    Joanne: I typed out a wonderful explaination that didn't get posted.

    So at that....

    First: A handgun is any pistol or revolver.
    Second: A pistol is any handgun that doesn't have a revolving cylinder that holds
    bullets
    Third: A revolver has a cylinder to hold cartriges. It can be "sinlge actioni" meaning you have to the hammer each time you shoot it. the hammer also turns the cylinder to line a chamber up with the barrel. A "double action" the hammer and rotates the cylinder with a pull of the trigger.

     
  • Barry Oaks posted at 11:02 am on Tue, Sep 17, 2013.

    Barry Oaks Posts: 2

    Mr. Braziel needs to know more about Glock handguns before posting that statement about "a long and hard trigger pull" for a 6 year old. Glocks are different than a lot of pistols that Mr. Braziel may be familiar with. They do not have a long and hard trigger pull.
    I own three different brands of autoloaders, including a glock, and I know the differences.

     
  • robert maurer posted at 9:13 am on Tue, Sep 17, 2013.

    mason day Posts: 445

    Joanne; Actually, the letter writer and Mike are both correct. The LPD misspoke when it was said that their glocks have no safeties, when in fact,they have 3. Check out www.alpharubicon.com/leo/glockpistols.htm. glockpistols pt.1 overview should clear up any unanswered questions .

     
  • Joanne Bobin posted at 7:37 am on Tue, Sep 17, 2013.

    Joanne Bobin Posts: 4488

    Mr. Adams: Can you dumb this down for the average person.

    Does this mean that the LPD or the letter writer is making stuff up?

     
  • Mike Adams posted at 7:03 am on Tue, Sep 17, 2013.

    Mike Adams Posts: 1383

    Glocks are neither "single action" or "double action". The trigger pull is the same from the first round to the last.

    The Glock has an external safety on the trigger. Without depressing this as you squeeze the trigger (very difficult to do) the trigger will not release the hammer.

    Because the safety is on the trigger, many Glock owners are wary of sticking a loaded gun in their wasteband or pocket or holster. Anything that can catch that safety and allow the trigger to move to the rear is something any Glock owner seeks to avoid. Holsters for Glocks have to be designed to avoid this otherwise the gun will go off when you holster it.

    Maybe the LPD should have bought 1911's instead.

     

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