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Letter: Biblical laws condemn, not the messengers

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Posted: Friday, June 6, 2014 9:50 pm

In Ms. Goni’s “Choose acceptance, not condemnation” letter, May 21, she begins by saying, “Don’t assume people who support what the LGBT community stands for are not students of the Bible or followers of Christ.” I re-read my letter, and nowhere did I suggest such an idea. Then she gives examples of Old Testament judgments when the law is broken, which she herself answers by ending her letter with Rom. 6:14.

She states that heterosexual Christians are being unbiblical by using what she calls “Clobber” passages for their beliefs in morality, which are against LGBT, yet 2 Tim. 3:16 says “all scripture is given ... for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.” You can say “reproof” is another way of saying “clobber.”

The Bible isn’t one of these books that says “you’re OK, I’m OK.” When the Lord healed a man, He told him to go and sin no more, not to go and party on, dude! She says the Bible only mentions homosexuality six times. How many times do you need to be told something is not pleasing to the Lord before you obey? And it’s in both testaments.

She says, “If we can choose between condemnation and understanding, the obvious choice is understanding.” I understand perfectly that there is none righteous — no, not one (Rom 3:10). We are under condemnation through the law in the Old Testament, but by the Lord’s sacrifice on the cross we are now saved from the law by His grace. The law condemns, not me or Ms. Boynton. And like the man healed by Jesus, once we are saved by His grace we are to go and sin no more ... not go right back into whatever we were doing before.

Ms. Goni says her letter is a “direct response to my judge and jury,” me and Ms. Boynton. As for me I’m no one’s judge or jury. I’m just a man trying to treat others as I would like to be treated, and doing my best to love the Lord with all my heart.

Ron Portal


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Welcome to the discussion.


  • Thomas Heuer posted at 10:43 pm on Mon, Jun 16, 2014.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1675

    Mr Lauchland
    No scientific person has ever claimed they know everything. However they do stand by what they do know. Religious people on the other hand do claim to know everything. They always like to start where science has reached a new question to explore further. Ah ha science has run out of answers therefore we must have found god and this is where genesis comes in. And on the first day god made the first particle and blew it up, therefore the big bang ...by god it must be so as he snapped his fingers and sang "Who let the dogs out woof woof" and he said that as big bangs go it was good, very good. No 4th of July display could ever compare let alone last all 6000 or so years since it happened.

  • Ted Lauchland posted at 10:59 pm on Sat, Jun 14, 2014.

    Ted Lauchland Posts: 261

    "It's just that we don't know ALL of the secrets of nature yet."

    That is very optimistic of you.
    We do not know all the secrets to anything so why pretend that we do?

  • Joanne Bobin posted at 11:32 am on Sat, Jun 14, 2014.

    Joanne Bobin Posts: 4488

    "Mother Nature teaches you right away that nothing is an exact science. What ever happened to the accelerator they were going to build in this earthquake prone area of California?"

    This is an awfully odd statement, considering that Mr. Lauchland just gave an example of what conditions lead to "mildew growing in the vineyard."

    EVERYTHING in nature is an exact science. It's just that we don't know ALL of the secrets of nature yet.

    As for accelerators, UC Berkeley has 7 different types. Here's a Wikipedia article on all accelerators and their locations:



  • M. Doyle posted at 6:51 am on Sat, Jun 14, 2014.

    M Doyle Posts: 188

    Everything follows the exact laws of the natural world. If you know of a case where something in nature is contrary to the laws of physics, I'm sure the whole scientific world would stand up and take a keen interest.

  • Christina Welch posted at 11:44 pm on Fri, Jun 13, 2014.

    Christina Welch Posts: 460

    Is it important that we know the whole story ? - No
    Is it important that we live a good life ? - Yes

    I like that, Ted. And, yes, Thomas, a science education is so very valuable. My daughter already has an interest in it and I am definitely trying to encourage her. Science, math, and technology--the jobs of the future. Personally, I think there's room in a person's mind and heart for both science and religion. You don't necessarily have to give up one to have the other. At least, for me anyway.

  • Ted Lauchland posted at 11:05 pm on Fri, Jun 13, 2014.

    Ted Lauchland Posts: 261

    Evangelical interpretations vary. Do as God says, do as I say, do as he/ she says, do as the good book says. Do it or I'll break your arm. Never do it because you want to ? A two year old will respond with less noes than that.

    Faith . Do it because God asks you to.

    Blind Faith? - No.

    Jihad ? - That's funny.

    Strength comes from family.
    Strength comes from strong relationships.
    Strength comes from knowledge and wisdom.
    Strength in individuality comes from mutual respect.

    The fight is man's struggles, man's arrogance. You are either on the inside looking out or the outside looking in. Envy, jealousy, hatred, corruption, greed, etc. , all grass is greener scenarios. Is there fairness in socialism ? Is there fairness in free enterprise? Exactly where does sin come in?

    Today's phraseology proclaims - do it because it is politically correct. Exactly who are you following ? Is this evangelical?

  • Ted Lauchland posted at 9:07 pm on Fri, Jun 13, 2014.

    Ted Lauchland Posts: 261

    Mother Nature teaches you right away that nothing is an exact science. What ever happened to the accelerator they were going to build in this earthquake prone area of California?

  • Thomas Heuer posted at 10:51 am on Fri, Jun 13, 2014.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1675

    Atoms do not look like solar systems. Just saying
    A science education is so important and more profitable.

  • Ted Lauchland posted at 2:57 pm on Thu, Jun 12, 2014.

    Ted Lauchland Posts: 261

    I will assume you are talking about the possible Mayan references to current day technology. Yep and they also have been entrepreted as predicting the end of the world date - which has already passed. -Wrong?

    Ah yes, "canyon". That helped you a lot didn't it ? I can only assume you meant "crayon".

    "Oldest Written Book" is a claim by the church as it is actually several books combined. Gospel is God's quoted words. Your logic may take you back further than that but the belief in God is talked about through the Jewish faith and Christian faith and so forth. One thing about the Egyptians and the Mayans is that they all believed in their own gods - not that a god didn't exist.

    I have my own proof and reasons in believing that God exists well beyond any arrogance that man chooses to display. Raised my kids in the church for the purpose of giving them a background of who God was and is. Their choice when they got older. My purpose was to keep them alive and see past man's soul when things get bad - and they will and do get bad . "Challenges" - people like to call them.

    I knew Mr. Johanson briefly - at church and on the street. Interesting man to say the least. Liked to talk. Something had brought him to the Lord years ago. He wanted and needed it. With Father's Day coming up you can imagine his need - my need.

    Is it important that we know the whole story ? - No
    Is it important that we live a good life ? - Yes

    With every overturned stone - a reason to stand in awe.

    To hold it as evidence that God does not exist is somewhat absurd.

    So while you are busy trying to prove he doesn't exist - I will simply enjoy the notion that he actually does. Strife can last a lifetime ya know.

    Your logic might tell me "No"
    My will tells me "Yes"

    I know what an atom looks like even if no picture has been taken.
    My body is made up of atoms and molecules , inert matter, whatever. Repeat "my body is made up of atoms ( that look like solar systems ) , molecules ( that look like galaxies and or so forth)
    The cosmos is not so mysterious.

    -( Here we go with another vineyard analogy.)
    "Mildew" will only grow under certain conditions. It explodes when doused with water. "Big Bang Theory" spreading spores but killing the mildew. Rules - don't you just luv um.

    I always figured since comets are mainly ice - that the earth probably passed through one's tail at some time to create our oceans. It doesn't detract from God's existence or his desire to give peace of mind to us to whom he said are in his likeness. How do you even know what "sin" or "decency" is without the words of the Bible? The book didn't exist during the time of the ancient civilizations but God did. Can I prove it ? - Nope.

    You guys must really think I am an idiot. Crayons come in more than one color - ya know.

  • Christina Welch posted at 10:54 pm on Tue, Jun 10, 2014.

    Christina Welch Posts: 460

    I agree, Ted, it is all about faith. And a sense of humor like yours doesn’t hurt, either. To me, religion is supposed to be something to give people comfort and hope in their difficult lives; something uplifting and loving. Something to look forward to after death, something to help give meaning during life. (Clearly I’m more of a New Testament gal, eh?) Faith and religion should be such beautiful things, but religion becomes politicized and antagonistic, as Thomas said in another post. It becomes the justification for war, for hate, for prejudice, for condemnation and judgment. Personally, that’s not the kind of faith I have or religion that I believe in. And I believe most Christians focus on the positive, affirming aspects of their faith. I truly feel sorry for those who focus on the negative, with so much hatred in their hearts.

  • Rick Houdack posted at 6:36 pm on Tue, Jun 10, 2014.

    Rick Houdack Posts: 189

    It's better for us Mr. Kinderman fears his god to keep him decent; those without a moral compass need one imposed on them.

  • Ed Walters posted at 4:59 pm on Tue, Jun 10, 2014.

    the old dog Posts: 638

    If you miss Cosmos which was presented in a 12 part series you missed a very interesting program and explained as good as any how the universe was created, not just planet earth. It was narrated by Neil De Grass Tyson, who along with Carl Sagan were Astrophysicist and looked to the universe for answers. Not in thousands or even millions of miles, but million and billions of years, learning that life doesn`t exist on any other planet. These men forgot more than any poster presenters thinks they know. They explained how planets were formed and are still being formed as I type. Look Mr. Sagan up on Google and learn something.

    And in closing I am surprised Lauchland`s post was not written with a canyon. People are convicted and sentenced to death with the help of DNA. Books written by the Egyptians and the Mayan civilization long before the bible.

  • Walter Chang posted at 4:56 pm on Tue, Jun 10, 2014.

    Walt Posts: 1191

    "Oldest Written Book the Bible"

    Ted, please do a little research and report back.


  • Walter Chang posted at 4:50 pm on Tue, Jun 10, 2014.

    Walt Posts: 1191

    "doing my best to love the Lord with all my heart"

    I'm not buying it.

    Ron doesn't know this material.

    Nor is he familiar with any aspect of the bible.

    He mereley fetched the contents of his letter off the web.

    When angry bloggers start quoting Leviticus...

    Folks, they know that they know have lost the argument.

    Change is coming.

    All the author can do is blog his displeasure!!


  • Eric Barrow posted at 10:19 am on Tue, Jun 10, 2014.

    Eric Barrow Posts: 1604

    I was hoping I would get a response to my question about your claim that "There are scientists out there who believe it is counterintuitive to believe the universe came into being without some form of divine intervention."

  • Thomas Heuer posted at 8:30 am on Tue, Jun 10, 2014.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1675

    When you haven't got proof, what do you have? Fantasy. Fantasy can be fun if its not taken seriously or hurt others. When your fantasies (like hearing voices ie. schizophrenics) make you feel you need to persecute others (LGBT), regulate the lives of others (women, children), harm others or even justify enslaving others then we are not having fun anymore. Faith isn't always moral.

  • Thomas Heuer posted at 8:16 am on Tue, Jun 10, 2014.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1675

    To say there is nothing after death is as absurd as saying there is something after death. NO ONE nows. NO ONE. Also there are no angels or aliens or big foots or ghosts or elves, or fairies, or dragons, or demons, or devils or gods. Of course unless you have some proof. Love to have that URL.

  • Brian Dockter posted at 7:16 pm on Mon, Jun 9, 2014.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2866

    Eric Barrow, what's so unsettling about God creating the universe and the laws that followed?

  • Brian Dockter posted at 7:06 pm on Mon, Jun 9, 2014.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2866

    M. Doyle, Not at all. What I am saying is we don't understand everything in the universe. The way you posed the question is very derogatory. Is a God that perhaps lives in a higher dimension, even extraterrestrial in nature such a bad thing?

  • Rick Houdack posted at 6:27 pm on Mon, Jun 9, 2014.

    Rick Houdack Posts: 189

    Briefly, Brian, I will agree with you that Christians claim to fully understand the origins of the universe and they believe in extraterrestrials based on the disjointed and contradictory creation myths found in Genesis. As far as your newfound beliefs that Jesus was a space alien and your claim that scientists actually believe in magic, I will leave you to explain the details in your own letter to the editor. The subject of Ron Portal's letter, though, is quite different and you shouldn't hijack his topic to float your theories.

  • Thomas Heuer posted at 5:08 pm on Mon, Jun 9, 2014.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1675

    As you say there are scientists "out there."
    No embellishment or additions to this statement need to be made. But how many? How many "out there" scientists compared to those scientists that don't jump to that "divine spark" conclusion actually exist. But I do understand how you only need or only look for that one to base your beliefs on. Ultimately what difference does it make?

    Counterintuitive or counter to intuition. Or you might say counter to expectation, or you might say counter to speculation, or you might even say counter to a gut feeling. Is this not the essence of the fragil footing of religion. Counterintuitive is only valid or useful as far as science can reveal.

    It was only counterintuitive to accept/believe god(s) made exploding volcanos, epic earthquakes, massive floods, severe droughts, devestating epidemics, etc. because the god(s) were angry. Why else would these things happen? Science now tells us, no, these things are naturally occurring according to natural laws. We know gods don't live on mountain tops or in the clouds anymore because we've been there.

    We now have realized stars and planets are moving out from a central point which can be best explained as some kind of big bang (a theory based on known facts). Now we seek facts to go beyond the Big Bang. Ddeity(s) have gone from mountain tops to the clouds to the outer reaches of the univere and now you want to proclaim you found god because its counterintuitive or some "out there" scientists believe it only stands to reason. The nice thing about evidence is we get rid of expectation, speculation, intuition and even gut feelings about the issue. I'm sorry we seem to keep pushing your god further and further right out of the universe.

  • Ted Lauchland posted at 3:20 pm on Mon, Jun 9, 2014.

    Ted Lauchland Posts: 261

    Skip the proof - go directly to faith. It is beyond our comprehension anyway. Yep - I said these words. Don't know if it came from anywhere else to be able to quote them.

    "Oldest Written Book" the Bible.

    Drawings on a cave wall - yeah you go with that.
    Carbon dating? Your date looks pretty old to me but I really don't think she will tell you exactly how old she really is. Doubt that she remembers anyway. Strike a match for that true carbon testing. Careful not to catch your dry water resistant front lawn - The house may go too !

    FOSSILS ! Oh yeah! - The only possible proof that is indisputable - right ? - Fossils can only be created by pressure. The kind of pressure that a flood with tons and tons of water pushing down can create. Most all historic civilizations talk about it. ( It's in the Bible too - imagine that)

    Layers and layers of sediment - gee - where did THAT come from !

    Oldest rock? Who made it to know when it was bornedededed. Carbon again? - awe come on ! Carbon is plant life - you know - OIL. I change it every ten thousand miles. (diesel engine dubby - I gotta code) - Somebody's made up rule. Maybe we can figure it out by using that frequency if we can count the changed filters along with it.

    Faith - Why argue about all the rest of it when you can't prove any of it other than if someone else tried to prove it and wrote it down for you to read and interpret ?

    Faith - Do you have any? My uncle and his family did and still does. Faith, that he would be successful in helping create an engine capable of reaching the stars. His kids (now my age) assisted in becoming computer egg spurts to assist. All devout Christians.

    I am just glad God stopped on the seventh day and rested. Any more and my head would have to explode.

    "Scary Stuff" - Good words Mr. Barrow.

  • Jerome Kinderman posted at 1:23 pm on Mon, Jun 9, 2014.

    Jerome R Kinderman Posts: 2370

    Christians believe that God controls the universe, M. Doyle. The Bible also makes references to Angels which we believe exist in Heaven and have a distinct purpose. Not that I am attempting to speak for Mr. Dockter, but these could very well be the "extraterrestrials" he might be referring to. In other words - it's true that we are not alone. Of course there are also those who believe that this is all there is; that once we die, there's nothing. I don't believe that and I am sure Mr. Dockter doesn't either.

    For those who believe that we are all alone and that our actions (behavior) here are of no consequence, then perhaps there's no point in being decent; no reason to try to be "good" versus "bad." I refuse to believe that this is all one big accident that simply happened. The odds of that are simply out of this world! But then again, this is just what I believe.

  • Eric Barrow posted at 10:32 am on Mon, Jun 9, 2014.

    Eric Barrow Posts: 1604

    Please name one, I would like to read their work.

  • Joanne Bobin posted at 10:30 am on Mon, Jun 9, 2014.

    Joanne Bobin Posts: 4488


    And it is clear from these posts and others that he cannot tell the difference between an adjective and an adverb, thereby totally misinterpreting others' posts.

  • Eric Barrow posted at 10:19 am on Mon, Jun 9, 2014.

    Eric Barrow Posts: 1604

    Ron is doing his best to "love the Lord with all his heart" shame he can't extend that charity to his fellow man.

  • Eric Barrow posted at 10:02 am on Mon, Jun 9, 2014.

    Eric Barrow Posts: 1604

    Wow I'm not sure which is more unsettling the Ron's LTE or Brian's response both are scary stuff.

  • M. Doyle posted at 10:25 am on Sun, Jun 8, 2014.

    M Doyle Posts: 188

    Mr. Dockter, are you implying that aliens control the universe and wrote the bible?

  • Brian Dockter posted at 11:50 am on Sat, Jun 7, 2014.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2866


    There are scientists out there who believe it is counterintuative to believe the universe came into being without some form of divine intervention.

  • Brian Dockter posted at 11:45 am on Sat, Jun 7, 2014.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2866


    Why is it so hysterical to you that there may be a being us non-Atheists consider a God that is guided by the laws of the universe?

  • Brian Dockter posted at 11:39 am on Sat, Jun 7, 2014.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2866


    I think it's fair to say you believe humans don't completely understand what is in the universe. That being said, I'm sure you have pondered the notion there are extraterrestrials. Let's say some of these extraterrestrials exist in a higher dimension than us humans. Thus, they appear Godlike to us humans WHO WANT TO believe there is more than just what exists on Earth. Now, can you honestly say you have never pondered this notion? And why is it such a struggle for you Atheists to imply there may be beings so far advanced of us humans?

  • Rick Houdack posted at 7:24 am on Sat, Jun 7, 2014.

    Rick Houdack Posts: 189

    Right... Mr. Portal is just doing his best to love his lord. Loudly. Repeatedly. Hysterically. And it is so fortunate his lord hates the same people Mr. Ron Portal does.


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