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Do not absolve Obama of responsibility in Benghazi

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Posted: Thursday, May 30, 2013 12:00 am

Susan Estrich, in her May 26 column, sought to absolve Obama from any responsibility for Benghazi by invoking Clinton’s sad abuse of a young intern and his impeachment, connecting it to the tragic death of four Americans. As sad as Clinton’s behavior was, his impeachable offense was for lying under oath and has nothing to do with Benghazi.

In the case of Obama and Benghazi, was there a cover up in the White House or State Department until after the election? As a respected attorney, Susan Estrich knows that is the legal issue yet to be determined.

As far as saying Clinton is “a whole lot more popular” today than Gingrich, it is debatable and just more extraneous commentary — again having nothing to do with the Benghazi legal issue.

Ron Cox

Lodi

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Welcome to the discussion.

111 comments:

  • Thomas Heuer posted at 11:30 am on Wed, Jun 5, 2013.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1666

    Andrew what a pleasant post. No insults and I believe its your own words as well. I agree with you (who would expect) that Wiki is not an end all info resource but it is handy for quick consultation. I use it often as the starting point for research (history) before going to more reliable sources. All articles give resources for further research and I may follow those or not. It is not the sum total of information and you do need to walk through it cautiously but for general purposes it has its place and a degree of reliability. Anyone who quotes from Wiki needs to be aware that the information (if it doesn't stand on its own) can be challenged with more reliable sources.

     
  • Andrew Liebich posted at 7:56 am on Wed, Jun 5, 2013.

    Andrew Liebich Posts: 2999

    When you want to know everything there is to know about a given topic, Wikipedia is the last place you should look.

    Robert McHenry (former editor of Encyclopedia Brittanica) had this to say about Wikipedia:

    “The user who visits Wikipedia to learn about some subject, to confirm some matter of fact, is rather in the position of a visitor to a public restroom. It may be obviously dirty, so that he knows to exercise great care, or it may seem fairly clean, so that he may be lulled into a false sense of security. What he certainly does not know is who has used the facilities before him.”

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 9:48 pm on Tue, Jun 4, 2013.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1666

    Wiki is reliable for most inquiries and usually points out when information has not been substantiated (verified). Something Fox, Rush, Hannity, Jones and Beck have yet to do but that doesn't stop people from turning to those thinking they are getting valid info. Have you heard O'Rielly complain the new IRS director went to the white house 157 times? You don't know why, he doesn't know why but you walked away thing somethings up. When some (eye witness) explains the meetings were regarding health care (IRS plays a large role) of course you don't believe it because Fox led you to another conclusion. I'm sure Alex Jones has fed his followers with equal nonesense.

    Wiki would be alot more reliable if conservative and conspiracy nuts, right wing christian zealots weren't allowed to contribute their conservative media complex fed wack ideas. I don't know anyone who would care about the age of Mr Maurer's wifes age. Besides he confesed to the murder of Vince Foster so is robbing the craddel such a strech? He's a known moose killer as well.

     
  • Andrew Liebich posted at 8:39 pm on Tue, Jun 4, 2013.

    Andrew Liebich Posts: 2999

    Contesting ignorance is not just the civic duty of the informed, it's also an act of compassion toward those who are not.
    [beam]

     
  • Andrew Liebich posted at 8:36 pm on Tue, Jun 4, 2013.

    Andrew Liebich Posts: 2999

    Yes Walter. Dozens of men who have magically vanished from the face of the earth. Do you know where we can find one of them? We have a few questions. For example, Why aren't THEY at the Benghazi hearings?
    [sleeping]

     
  • Andrew Liebich posted at 8:29 pm on Tue, Jun 4, 2013.

    Andrew Liebich Posts: 2999

    Has it not been clearly demonstrated to you that Wikipedia is less than truthful?
    [sleeping]

     
  • Walter Chang posted at 7:41 pm on Tue, Jun 4, 2013.

    Walt Posts: 1171

    "dial-a-prayer"

    1-800-LEVITICUS

    "Hello, you've reached, Levite Priest From Antiquity, because your call is important to us..."

    [smile]

     
  • Walter Chang posted at 7:29 pm on Tue, Jun 4, 2013.

    Walt Posts: 1171

    OK boys, I get it.

    Dr. Donald Haut is right and "Prosecutor" Ken Starr is wrong.

    Alex Jones is correct and the Department of Justice is incorrect.

    Glenn Beck knows the secrets but the FBI doesn't.

    Local Archconservative/Retrogrssive bloggers suggest Wiki is less then truthful.

    Thanks!

    [smile]

     
  • Walter Chang posted at 7:25 pm on Tue, Jun 4, 2013.

    Walt Posts: 1171

    Those men, that followed orders, are still alive.

     
  • robert maurer posted at 3:13 pm on Tue, Jun 4, 2013.

    mason day Posts: 463

    ...and I guess some would only watch as their neighbors were terrorized. Yup, call animal control...Might as well call dial-a-prayer.

     
  • robert maurer posted at 2:45 pm on Tue, Jun 4, 2013.

    mason day Posts: 463

    Yup. I trust wikipedia, especially since they got my wife's birthdate wrong, making me appear to be a child molester, when in fact she was 19, not 15, when I asked her to marry me,when I was 24, contrary to what was written. Anyone who depends on wikipedia,( any neurotic can post BS there)has serious mental issues in my fact based opinion.[angry]

     
  • Mike Adams posted at 10:59 am on Tue, Jun 4, 2013.

    Mike Adams Posts: 1507

    Let us not forget that GHB was listening to school children read when the Pentagon and the WTC were attacked. He then high-tailed it out of dodge on AF 1 and flew to Nebraska.

    What did Mr. Bitz do on either date?

     
  • Mike Adams posted at 10:55 am on Tue, Jun 4, 2013.

    Mike Adams Posts: 1507

    On the night of 9/11/12, President Obama was in the WH situation room trying to coordinate efforts to rescue U.S. Ambassador J. Christopher Stevens, along with Sean Smith, Glen Doherty, and Tyrone S. Woods.

    Does anyone have substatial evidence to refute this?

     
  • Mike Adams posted at 10:49 am on Tue, Jun 4, 2013.

    Mike Adams Posts: 1507

    John: Debating Bill Clinton and his behavior with this group is a no win effort.

    When sound bites, lies, exagerations, and inuendo are the currency of their "truth", an honest man can never hope to win. Best to let them simmer in their cesspool for a couple more decades. When 1 democrat does something bad, that is equivalent to 6 republicans doing something bad. You can't win with their lack of number sense.

    Leave them to look foolish. It's one of the main ways we can recognize them.

     
  • Andrew Liebich posted at 7:28 am on Tue, Jun 4, 2013.

    Andrew Liebich Posts: 2999

    The real truth: Americans died. The Obama administration lied. [sleeping]

     
  • Andrew Liebich posted at 7:26 am on Tue, Jun 4, 2013.

    Andrew Liebich Posts: 2999

    Wikipedia also claims "An autopsy determined that he was shot in the mouth and no other wounds were found on his body."

    FALSE: The signed report of M.E. Dr. Donald Haut was uncovered at the National Archives, proving that Foster had a previously unreported gunshot wound to his neck.
    [sleeping]

     
  • Walter Chang posted at 5:18 pm on Mon, Jun 3, 2013.

    Walt Posts: 1171

    "Once again;4 brave men disobeyed orders to stand down, yet they were killed backing up those in need."

    The simple truth: 4 men disobeyed orders and they were killed.

     
  • Walter Chang posted at 5:17 pm on Mon, Jun 3, 2013.

    Walt Posts: 1171

    "no gunpowder on Foster's suicidal hand"

    From wiki:

    "After a three-year investigation, Ken Starr concluded that Foster's death was a suicide"

    Official findings: Foster's death was concluded to have been a suicide by inquiries/investigations conducted by the United States Park Police, the Department of Justice, the FBI, the United States Congress, Independent Counsel Robert B. Fiske, and Independent Counsel Kenneth Starr.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_of_Vince_Foster

     
  • robert maurer posted at 3:19 pm on Mon, Jun 3, 2013.

    mason day Posts: 463

    About as much as 'Traffic" and the "Cars".[beam]

     
  • robert maurer posted at 3:00 pm on Mon, Jun 3, 2013.

    mason day Posts: 463

    According to some reports, the backups in Tripoli were 3 hours of flight time away from response. We had backups 6 minutes jogging time away. That is where those 4 heroes came from even though they and others were told by higher ranks, unknown at this time,who, to stand down. We should be outraged and fight fire with fire.God knows one cannot reason with lunatics.(terrorists)

     
  • robert maurer posted at 12:53 pm on Mon, Jun 3, 2013.

    mason day Posts: 463

    ... and no gunpowder on Foster's suicidal hand... Hmmm. Just like the US's murder rate: 97% go unsolved.

     
  • robert maurer posted at 12:24 pm on Mon, Jun 3, 2013.

    mason day Posts: 463

    Once again;4 brave men disobeyed orders to stand down, yet they were killed backing up those in need.Why? 1 mile away , there was backup, and they were it. Those are heroes who will be labeled zeroes in history. If the best is denied their oaths, what is next? At this rate, why even have a US militia? Pardon me while I puke.

     
  • Walter Chang posted at 9:44 am on Sun, Jun 2, 2013.

    Walt Posts: 1171

    Thank you

    [thumbup]

     
  • Andrew Liebich posted at 12:19 am on Sun, Jun 2, 2013.

    Andrew Liebich Posts: 2999

    The ignorance can only be described as willful Stan. Personally, in this instance, I also find it disgusting.

    "No credible source has said the we had troops or anything else to help them in time. Please quit LYING about that."

    Honestly Mr. Lucas...Are you kidding?
    Mark Thompson, acting deputy assistant Secretary of State for counterterrorism or Greg Hicks, number two to Ambassador Chris Stevens aren't credible sources?

    How about Tyrone Woods and Glen Doherty? Would you consider them credible sources?

    "We" are sure they died attempting to "help them in time" Mr. Heuer...[sleeping]

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 8:24 pm on Sat, Jun 1, 2013.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1666

    Thank you John. You relate my understanding of the rescue possibilities. Whatever questions remain need to rest until a final report is issued. The problem with Stans post is that he says "we know" and "we also know" when he should be saying I believe and I also believ because there are no facts to support his I knows...yet. When he says we I don't know who is included in his we.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 11:05 am on Sat, Jun 1, 2013.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    The Inspector Generals report disagrees with your assessment. No credible source has said the we had troops or anything else to help them in time. Please quit LYING about that. I do not defend liars either. The problem was in the preparation. You not help others understand a situation by lying or misrepresenting the facts.

     
  • stan taves posted at 8:35 am on Sat, Jun 1, 2013.

    Stan Taves Posts: 319

    Thomas, no harm can come from relevant speculation. Unfortunately relevancy easily escapes those who will not even address that which is clearly known. A refresher for you, Thomas: We know that brave soldiers in Tripoli were ready to help when the "stand-down" order was issued. We know that Hill didn't care whether it was a reaction to a video, or 4 guys out for a walk who wanted to kill Americans -- neither option having even the slightest validity. We also know that Susan Rice ( UN Ambassador ) was sent out to lie for her superiors, when the responsibility to lie to us should have fallen upon either a high ranking State Dept official, or a White House spokesperson. It's this simple: if you want to defend liars then you'll need to become a proficient liar yourself. I'm always helping you; just my nature, I guess.

     
  • Andrew Liebich posted at 7:57 am on Sat, Jun 1, 2013.

    Andrew Liebich Posts: 2999

    The gun which he supposedly used to kill himself was reported to be still in his hand, but the person who first found the body reports that there was no gun at that time. Many irregularities surround the death and the investigation of it.

    Foster was also from Hope, Ark., like Clinton, and also worked for the Rose Law firm. Foster had intimate knowledge of the Clintons’ personal finances. Foster was involved in an investigation of their finances, and reportedly made a phone call to Hillary Clinton, in Los Angeles, just hours before his death.

    Recently, the signed report of M.E. Dr. Donald Haut was uncovered at the National Archives, proving that Foster had a previously unreported gunshot wound to his neck.

    Finally, an FBI memo has surfaced dated the day after the date of the official autopsy, in which the autopsist informs the FBI that there was NO exit wound.

    The "suicide" note, (leaked despite official efforts to keep it from view) has since been revealed to be a forgery.
    [sleeping]

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 1:39 am on Sat, Jun 1, 2013.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1666

    Ed
    That is fascinating detective work. Where do we go with this. Do we go to the Galt police Dept? Do we go to the FBI? Lets see its not a case currently under investigation so do you think this which I found in Wikipedia

    'Foster's death was concluded to have been a suicide by inquiries/investigations conducted by the United States Park Police, the Department of Justice, the FBI, the United States Congress, Independent Counsel Robert B. Fiske, and Independent Counsel Kenneth Starr."

    Now Ken Starr investigated for 3 years so if it wasn't a suicide suicide will have to stand regardless of any inconsistencies you may believe exist. Speculating further is what is refered to as beating a dead horse (eh some pun intended).

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 1:22 am on Sat, Jun 1, 2013.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1666

    I knew it.

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 1:21 am on Sat, Jun 1, 2013.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1666

    Stan
    You said "You do make an important point about the lack of evidence; But did you ever stop to ask yourself why that might be?"
    Ask myself why there is no evicence? You and other commenters want to now have me engage in the speculation game. Yes I could guess as towhat may have happened but to what end? I remember the Kennedy assasination (when I chose to be a democrat) and ever since there have beeen the recurring conspiracy theoriews to this day as to what REALLY happened and who was on the grassy knoll. Oliver Stone even made a movies with his version. I don't care what anybody thinks happened I want to know what happened based on any available evidence. Not speculation. So to say have I ever thought what happened to the evidence, it doesn't matter. We either have it or we don't.

    This goes for your "(staff) were keeping B O informed, then why couldn't he come to the conclusion that the "boiler" is about to blow... " Your asking me? There you go again asking me to join in in the speculation game. There is either a perfectly reasonable explanation or messed up and then its to what degree was the mess up. Bada Bing Bada Boom. We can all join around the camp fire later and talk about what was actually found. But if it was a reasonable explanation there ar going to be continued speculation just as we have indured from the Kennedy explanation.

    And as for your "coming at you" this is an opinion page. You sound like your in some skid-row bar getting ready to brawl. Well your probably younger than me so I'll pass. So that answers your question do I think it will go away? Not a chance. Maybe Oliver Stone should do a movie about Bengazi.

    BTW Thanks for all your "help ".

     
  • Doug Chaney posted at 9:36 pm on Fri, May 31, 2013.

    advocate Posts: 502

    Thumbs up, flyboy!

     
  • Doug Chaney posted at 9:35 pm on Fri, May 31, 2013.

    advocate Posts: 502

    Thumbs up, Bobby, old chap!

     
  • Robert Chapman posted at 6:27 pm on Fri, May 31, 2013.

    Bob Chapman Posts: 997

    Unlike your liberal buddies, I don't need an army of "thumbs up" and "me too" people to present my observations. I simply lay out the facts, you can accept them or offer verifiable proof that they are not as I present them. Or you can simply join Ms.Bobin with an intelligent reply of "doesn't have a leg to stand on".

     
  • Robert Chapman posted at 6:23 pm on Fri, May 31, 2013.

    Bob Chapman Posts: 997

    Bullying? If bullying means allowing you to read facts and truth, I am guilty. Talking BIG? I can accept true & factual arguments against my posts, apparently Mrs. Bobin doesn't have any so she siimply says I am "talking big". Talking BIG? Excuse me while I attempt to decipher exactly what she means.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 6:23 pm on Fri, May 31, 2013.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Sometimes listening to people makes me think I am on LSD or something.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 5:53 pm on Fri, May 31, 2013.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Jealous? [smile]

     
  • Joe Baxter posted at 5:51 pm on Fri, May 31, 2013.

    Joe Baxter Posts: 1904

    Bobbin, if YOUR husband did what Billy the Liar did, you would shrug it of as no big deal?

     
  • John Lucas posted at 5:17 pm on Fri, May 31, 2013.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    [smile]

     
  • robert maurer posted at 4:53 pm on Fri, May 31, 2013.

    mason day Posts: 463

    "Flotsam and jetsam; only remnants of something that floats to the surface,

     
  • Joe Baxter posted at 4:53 pm on Fri, May 31, 2013.

    Joe Baxter Posts: 1904

    Mr. Chapman, it appears that Owe-Blame-O really does favor sequestration if it means keeping people from exposing the TRUTH about the Benghazi mess and proves he and HillBilly lied, lied, lied.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 4:44 pm on Fri, May 31, 2013.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    [smile]

     
  • robert maurer posted at 4:42 pm on Fri, May 31, 2013.

    mason day Posts: 463

    Seems we're all stirring a cauldron of something we don't want on our shoes.

     
  • Walter Chang posted at 4:33 pm on Fri, May 31, 2013.

    Walt Posts: 1171

    "Flotsam and Jetsam"

    Bob, you think metal is making a comeback?

    [smile]

     
  • Walter Chang posted at 4:26 pm on Fri, May 31, 2013.

    Walt Posts: 1171

    "Airman Blog Squad"

    Colonel, you're stirring the pot alone today.

    Where's the crew??

    [huh]

     
  • robert maurer posted at 4:25 pm on Fri, May 31, 2013.

    mason day Posts: 463

    OK, my concience got to me. I killed Vince Foster with the help of a biker gang. Mystery solved. Can we move on to today and more important events?

     
  • Walter Chang posted at 4:09 pm on Fri, May 31, 2013.

    Walt Posts: 1171

    "coming at me"

    Stan, you're truly the master of bluster!

    Loud, aggressive and pompous but with little effect!

    [wink]

     
  • Walter Chang posted at 4:09 pm on Fri, May 31, 2013.

    Walt Posts: 1171

    "most likely killed in his office and moved"

    Ed, most of the time you seem like a nice normal fellow.

    But when you go on and on...

    About Vince Foster...

    It's seems just a little bit looney.

    I think we need to ask a pro.

    Andrew, any thoughts on the topic??

    [smile]

     
  • robert maurer posted at 3:14 pm on Fri, May 31, 2013.

    mason day Posts: 463

    Our backups were told to "back down". Why? I would like to know why American lives became flotsam and jetsum.

     
  • robert maurer posted at 2:39 pm on Fri, May 31, 2013.

    mason day Posts: 463

    There is so much stupidity out there to supply a whole separate new world. [sad]

     
  • Robert Chapman posted at 2:20 pm on Fri, May 31, 2013.

    Bob Chapman Posts: 997

    "There was backup that could have got there in time. That is a myth."
    And you know that, how? We have already discovered major lies the White House has released regarding the Benghazi fiasco, I am convinced "no available help" is yet another. There were two drones, one filming the whole thing as it was unfolding, one possibly armed. Reportedly, there was also an AC130 in the area that could have help level the playing field. No authorization was given to use any of these assets. Somebody had to make that decision. Wonder who that was? Another mystery is why are the American survivors (25-30, depending which reports are accurate) not only named but are “off limits” to the press and even members of Congress who have tried to contact them? Someone had to issue the orders to restrict access to these people. Wonder who that was?

     
  • John Lucas posted at 1:58 pm on Fri, May 31, 2013.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    How did that adventure in Iraq work out? We are a most definitely a sovereign nation. Being sovereign and not stupid would be nice [smile]

     
  • robert maurer posted at 1:27 pm on Fri, May 31, 2013.

    mason day Posts: 463

    We are the USA! Why do we need approval of China,Russia, or anyone else to keep the USA a sovereign country? I sure as h*** don't need you or Mr. Liebich or anybody else to tell me what makes a great country. I do not need backup for my beliefs as many seem to. What I predicted in 1982 with r&r stars has happened. There is a lot more to come,which you would never believe, but the "division bell" (Pink Floyd) has already begun. Divided we stand: together we fall. I stand and watch.

     
  • Robert Chapman posted at 1:22 pm on Fri, May 31, 2013.

    Bob Chapman Posts: 997

    No bullying, unless you consider providing FACTS bullyiing. Apparently, most liberals do.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 1:14 pm on Fri, May 31, 2013.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    I am afraid you are right

     
  • John Lucas posted at 1:12 pm on Fri, May 31, 2013.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Babbling is not really helping

     
  • stan taves posted at 12:49 pm on Fri, May 31, 2013.

    Stan Taves Posts: 319

    Thomas, why do you believe that coming at me is ever a good idea? glutton for punishment, maybe? You do make an important point about the lack of evidence; But did you ever stop to ask yourself why that might be? Of course not, and that's because the truth would only crush the facade that portrays itself as legitimate leadership. Just so you understand, Thomas: those who know the truth are afraid to reveal the truth. Furthermore, if the so-called experts in the "boiler room" were keeping B O informed, then why couldn't he come to the conclusion that the "boiler" is about to blow a hole through the basement? Hey! no worries, Obama and friends occupy the exec suite, right? You might believe that this thing will just go away, "what difference does it make?" eh? Maybe, but if this incompetent deceiver-in-chief can't stop the flooding in the basement, then the whole building is about to come down -- believe it. By the way, Thomas, if you want to debate then it's your obligation to counter the many well articulated points that I offer; instead of obfuscating with irrelevant speculation that does nothing to support your position -- just trying to help.

     
  • robert maurer posted at 12:48 pm on Fri, May 31, 2013.

    mason day Posts: 463

    Judging from what has been published, we can't count on Russia, but we are working toward a better relationship with China. We can only wait and see how that goes.

     
  • Ed Walters posted at 12:16 pm on Fri, May 31, 2013.

    the old dog Posts: 615

    Mr. Heuer: In my comments made yesterday concerning Vince Forster, perhaps the most important fact was left out. Being that Foster was most likely killed in his office and moved to the park area. As I stated before very little blood was found at the sight of his body. Most damaging to your thoughts are, his body was found and moved by a park ranger, never but never is a body to be moved by anyone other than a Medical Examiner or Coroner. For a body to be placed in a down hill position, very little blood evidence was found from the entry and exit wounds.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 12:15 pm on Fri, May 31, 2013.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    There was backup that could have got there in time. That is a myth. As to Syria there really is not a neat answer. The only time I would support sending our troops there if it was multi force operation backed by the UN. To do anything meaningful and lasting we have to have Russia and China on board.

     
  • robert maurer posted at 11:27 am on Fri, May 31, 2013.

    mason day Posts: 463

    Mr.Heuer; I agree with you on your 10:15 post on your last statement. Obama has let so-called experts do what they thought was best. There will be an outcome,good or bad. But what was so important that Obama or Ms.Clinton could not reply to a request for backup that they did not respond? You said it best;We rely on those that are experts in their fields. Yes, the Bengazi situation was kept secret. Why is it now come to the forefront, instead of when it happened? There are many things happening now that demand our attention,such as an election in Iran in which the 12 guardians will choose a new president(who cowers or leads) radical muslims, Russia sending missiles to back up the Syrian government,while we back the rebels. Seems like Viet Nam all over again; East vs. West; war by proxy.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 10:56 am on Fri, May 31, 2013.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Bill Clinton was the victim of a political witch hunt that was supposed to be about Whitewater. Somehow it got to be about his love life. When asked about ones love life there are only two answers for me. I prefer to say it is none of your business but lying is the second. THIS IS AMERICA. YOUR LOVE LIFE IS NOBODIES BUSINESS. Unless of course you are a Conservative. If you guys concentrated on the art of governing as you do on everyone else's love life maybe you would not be so inept and drive the country into the ditch anytime you have the power. Just one time I wish guys like you or Jerome address the out and out lying of George W Bush and D--k Cheney. Bill Clinton can go anywhere in the world and is loved and admired. There are parts of the world(Spain and Indonesia for two) where George and D--k would be arrested for war crimes.

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 10:15 am on Fri, May 31, 2013.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1666

    Stan
    You provide yet another example of 'we know he's guilty, we know what the sentence should be but why can't we just find the evidence.' Its being investigated and so far there are no facts to support a hanging just idle right wing hysterical wishful thinking looking for wrong doing...again. Tiresome.

    And if you supported the "Citizens United" decision for unlimited campaign funding then you are part of the problem of endless campaigning. They aren't cheap and those for the president are hard to cancel considering the security and other set up of food and staff.

    And lets remember this is the 21st century, whatever can be done at the white house can be done on Air Force One or most anywhere else. If you have ever been a CEO you know you hire those specificly to run the various operations you oversee. If theres a problem in the boiler room the CEO is not going to go down where he has no expertise, he relies on the experts to keep him informed.

     
  • Robert Chapman posted at 10:13 am on Fri, May 31, 2013.

    Bob Chapman Posts: 997

    Mr. Lucas says he was trying to "broaden the subject"? Broaden the subject? More like trying to excuse the disgraceful actions of Clinton. As Americans, should we not be able expect our President not to behave like some sexually obsessed pervert engaging in sexual acts with staff in the Oval Office? Attempting to justify his behavior in this manner is like little children who get in trouble and try to get out of it by saying "this kid or that kid did it too". It is unbelievable how liberals try to downplay this incident yet SCREAM to the top of their lungs about any and all indiscretions by conservatives. I don't care if Clinton had sex with Buddy, the presidential dog; he LIED to Congress and America, something that has resulted in incarceration and fines for others.

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 9:35 am on Fri, May 31, 2013.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1666

    So Robert
    you just like to point fingers and hpoe everyone agrees with your political views (and it is political)? If you have negative ideas about Clinton but others see worse behaviors in others should then Clintons misdemeaners stand out amongst the felonies of others?

    And why do you use the word "idolizes"? Thats kind of a teeny bop word that is meant to denigrate an opposing view. Thats very bullying of you. Your not a bully are you?

     
  • John Lucas posted at 9:24 am on Fri, May 31, 2013.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    [smile]

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 9:09 am on Fri, May 31, 2013.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1666

    By George John it does always seem that in religious history the greater sins do revolve around sex but murder and torture, bearing false witness, greed and graft all seem to take a back seat. True for both christians and muslims. If they portray decadence in the movies its usually an orgy. So wall street taking everyones money, going to war under false pretenses, advancing torture as a means of gaining viable inteligence, selling arms for hostages, obstructing sane gun control measures (background checks) to curb guns getting in the hands of criminals must all be pergatory offenses as opposed to any sexual misconduct which is a straight to hell offense.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 8:59 am on Fri, May 31, 2013.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Steve the fact is that every minute of every day there are Americans putting their life on the line. What you are asking is the President (any President) be up 24/7 micro managing. It is impossible. We have lines of leadership. There were mistakes made in this affair and they are being investigated. That is everything but the refusal of the Republican congress to allocate the funds requested to beef up consulate and embassy security. That and did we learn all the lessons from the myriad of consular and embassy attacks during the Bush years as there were so many more and with a greater loss of life? Some things we will just not talk about

     
  • John Lucas posted at 8:49 am on Fri, May 31, 2013.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Jerome was comparing Obama to Clinton. I though we might broaden the subject. I know you guys on the other side of the street are really concerned about the private sexual life of others (in the name of Freedom?) but there is more to integrity than that. There is also the fact that Bill Clinton does more good for others before he wakes up in the morning than you or I will do in our whole lives.

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 8:40 am on Fri, May 31, 2013.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1666

    Come on Mr Bitz just tell us what you think he did on that night. Most conservatives just post their perceived speculations off in this forum as fact so go ahead, reduce the drama and let your imagination ride. Then try to Google some facts. LOL

     
  • Robert Chapman posted at 8:35 am on Fri, May 31, 2013.

    Bob Chapman Posts: 997

    What does it say about someone who idolizes a man with the morals of a common alley cat? Clinton was a disgraced the office of the Presidency. Again with the what about this guy or that guy when defending liberals.

     
  • stan taves posted at 8:33 am on Fri, May 31, 2013.

    Stan Taves Posts: 319

    The Campaigner-and-Chief was packing for another one of his countless fundraisers. The White House spokesperson is not exactly sure about where -- or what -- he was packing, but that he was around... It was said that B O had spoken with Hill and Panetta earlier; I guess he figured that it was all good -- time to party in Vegas right? As to why our brave men in Benghazi were not given the needed assistance that could have come from Tripoli? The White House claims that help would not have arrived in time, but have yet tell anyone how they arrived at that absurd assessment. The general from Africom has yet to testify regarding the stand-down order; however, Panetta has thrown the General "under the bus" where he, presumably, will remain until the "problem" goes away -- it won't. These people are horrible human beings who have put political calculations before leadership, time, and again. And what do they do to try cover-up their deplorable misdeeds? They blame it all on a video. Please! for God's sake! how can any reasonable person look at this travesty and not condemn it for what it is? There is blood on their hands, and they will never wash it away -- believe it!

     
  • John Lucas posted at 1:59 am on Fri, May 31, 2013.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Jerome said:

    The bottom line is Bill Clinton is a confirmed liar. But the worst part of his lying is that he actually tried to thwart another American’s right to her day in court by suborning perjury. The words “Clinton” and “Integrity” should never be used in the same sentence unless it’s to emphasize what the man has none of.

    It always amuses me how Jerome glides over David Vitter, Tom Foley, Larry Craig, John Ensign etc. I have to admit we Democrats enjoy the pain of these Republicans not because of the sex but the blatant hypocrisy involved. It is the hypocrisy that is so outrageous.

    I have seen Jerome defend George W Bush many times and call him a good man who has integrity. Lets look at the record

    When a young man he used political pull to avoid service in Vietnam, a war he vigorously supported. He has never come clean about this

    He stood on a stage with a man by his side who alleged John McCain was a traitor during his primary fight with John McCain

    He had one of his supporters put up $500,000 for a book of lies about John Kerry’s military service while saying publicly he applauded Kerry’s service. Swiftboating has been defined as the process of smearing a military veteran's service record for political purposes. This is one of Georges’s contributions to the public discourse

    He knowingly made many false claims about Iraq so he could go perpetrate of the greatest foreign policy disasters of all time costing at least a trillion dollars, an untold amount of dead, wounded and suffering.

    He told the world we do not torture while setting up a world wide torture regime.

    He set up monitoring of US citizens telephone inside the US while saying publicly we did not do that.

    This is just off the top of my head. I am sure some of my friends on this forum will remind me of the other lies and misrepresentations of Mr. Bush. He did not have sex in the White House so in Jerome’s mind he is A-OK.

     
  • roy bitz posted at 11:01 pm on Thu, May 30, 2013.

    roy bitz Posts: 503

    Still would like to know how our president spent the night of 9/11/2012.
    Anyone else?

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 10:02 pm on Thu, May 30, 2013.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1666

    If they delete a comment does it reduce your post count. Oh well one comment deleted and 2091 to go.

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 9:43 pm on Thu, May 30, 2013.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1666

    [thumbup]

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 9:42 pm on Thu, May 30, 2013.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1666

    Forgive the mangle above. The "Talk about the t before any evidence of anything has been forth coming." should have never left t)he keyboard.

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 7:47 pm on Thu, May 30, 2013.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1666

    Mr Walters
    who has the questions? Those investigating the Vince Foster case or only you in your limited capacity as a casual observer? I frankly have to go with the people that actually investigated the case. More trying to denigrate the Clintons by heresay.

    This was what was so infuriating about conservatives continuing to look for the "tecnicality" to gain political advantage. After Vince Foster and Watergate turned up nothing, the sex scandals evaporated they found their technicality in a blue dress. I was upset with Clinton but I was so much more fed up with conservatives and their repeated scandal hunting on the nightly news as we find going on today. Its like a real life "Les Miserable" where yes the hero,Jean Valjean, was technically a criminal who served a severe prison sentence for a loaf of bread chased by the determined inspector Javert you quickly dismiss any petty crimes of the hero and disipse the heartless obsessive pursuit of the inspector. His pursuit hardly befits the original crimes especially when you consider the harshness of the prison sentence already served and the inevitable sentence if caught again. .

    So when the conservatives say well Clinton lied you mean thats it after all we've been through. All that has been done to the detriment of the country? I'm sorry the obtained pound of flesh is not nearly as incriminating as what has transpired. Some titilation and embarassing revalations that most would try to evade dealing with in open conversation and especially publically. Sorry. I wasn't allowed to be angry with Clinton. My anger was already spent.

    As then there is so much that needs to be done and conservatives continue to obstruct but find the time to have hearing after hearing that if they do come up with something (probably a technicality again) I'm sorry I just won't have any anger left again to suit you. Its not liberals giving a pass to either Clinton or Obama but an even greater dissatisfaction for conservative witch hunting and political self serving on tax payers dollars. The "tea Party " candidates have been the worst. Vince Foster? It happened ,it was investigated why waste any more time in idle speculation. Fast and furious or Bengazi have both been investigated over and over in congress and the press and guess what? Nada. AP emails and IRS are being investigated and no matter what turns up it better be something big and horrible to over come my frustration for the endless hearings and rumor mill scandals and do nothing conservative congressionals. Before any evidence is in and only hopeful speculation the conservatives are throwing around the word impeachment. Talk about the t before any evidence of anything has been forth coming. Talk about the cart before the evidence.

    We have a president that is ready to address the burning issues of the day whether you fully agree with him or not he still won by a majority of Americans who believe he has the right answers. Romney didn't win. Santorun, Bachman, Perry, Portman, Gingrich, all didn't win. There is a reason. Heres a clue, its not the 47% theory no matter how comforting that may be for you.

     
  • Lawrence Steinberg posted at 6:56 pm on Thu, May 30, 2013.

    Lawrence Steinberg Posts: 65

    I think Gingrich is polling in the low single digits these days.

     
  • Lawrence Steinberg posted at 6:53 pm on Thu, May 30, 2013.

    Lawrence Steinberg Posts: 65

    Its a war folks. People die in wars. Under Bush, consular workers lost their lives on a regular basis and you didn't see the wing nuts demanding any investigation into their deaths, did you?

     
  • Walter Chang posted at 6:35 pm on Thu, May 30, 2013.

    Walt Posts: 1171

    Vroooom... Vroooom...

    [wink]

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 6:31 pm on Thu, May 30, 2013.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1666

    Jerome if lying was a personal failing and truely punishable we would have NO politicians left. We would have no salesmen left. Police would have fewer convictions. Wall street would be a ghost town rather than the hub of our capitalistic life. Fox news would have to abandon their stations. Glen Beck and Rush Limbaugh would actually wind up in the rehab programs they need. Is there unemployment for attorneys? Lets see where would our tax system be?

    Impeachment is like accusations your Fox news people like to run with but in a court of law evidence is required for a conviction. Since there were no convictions you have to let it go and can't continue the conservative penchant for reinvestigation after reinvestigation thinking if we just look at it again and again from different angles because of a hopeful belief something new might turn up exhausts people. That is not an inquiry for truth but a trying to make things fit the desired outcome. Now that maybe how they run courts in Texas and the rest of the old west in the old days but today in civilized society you look at the evidence then draw your conclusions not the other way around.

     
  • Ed Walters posted at 6:01 pm on Thu, May 30, 2013.

    the old dog Posts: 615

    Sorry Eric: I was not clear. The old sayings goes, you never hear the bullet that kills you since a round goes about 2,200 ft. a second as the speed of sound is around 786 ft. per second. Depending on what ever is launched from a drone, your toast.

     
  • Ed Walters posted at 5:51 pm on Thu, May 30, 2013.

    the old dog Posts: 615

    Joanne: Concerning Vince Foster, there are still many questions as to how and where he died. Just like anything else, on a daily basis the story fades, though I still remember quite well. He supposedly had an affair with Rodham Clinton. The day he died all the important papers in his desk were gone. There was little or no blood at the sight of his body, his body was found facing down hill, still no blood, meaning it was put there post mortem.

     
  • robert maurer posted at 4:50 pm on Thu, May 30, 2013.

    mason day Posts: 463

    Which Clinton were you referring to? According to National Journal, Gallup/USA Today, as of Sept.2012, Bill Clinton had an approval rating of 69%.Hillary's was 65%, Obama was at 53% and Biden was at 44%.

     
  • Eric Barrow posted at 4:17 pm on Thu, May 30, 2013.

    Eric Barrow Posts: 1591

    I don't get it Ed "the buzz that removes me from the living"
    Anyway keep us updated would love to hear if Obamacare changes your healthcare or forces you to switch doctors I'm assuming it hasn't yet.

     
  • Eric Barrow posted at 3:30 pm on Thu, May 30, 2013.

    Eric Barrow Posts: 1591

    Clinton's approval rating today is at 66 % and when you factor in the extreme right and haters this is remarkable high. When you lie outside of 33% of mean on the bell curve you are on the fringes or you could be considered extreme. This is why Obama troubles you so much you are so far right that moderate looks left.

     
  • Ed Walters posted at 3:13 pm on Thu, May 30, 2013.

    the old dog Posts: 615

    Eric: Let me remind you, just like the bullet that removes you from the living, you will never here the buzz that does the same. Wait until Barry`s Obama care kicks in, you think this country has problems now. I have been with Kaiser Permanente for over 50 years and have yet to find a better health plan, simply because I have never had cause to leave Kaiser and look for another health plan. I just hope Barry`s foolishness does not screw up an outstanding organization that ranks 5 stars as far as Medicare is concerned.

     
  • Jerome Kinderman posted at 3:07 pm on Thu, May 30, 2013.

    Jerome R Kinderman Posts: 2367

    So someone suggests that we can’t expect anyone to be perfect - of course we can’t because no one is. And for this reason people DO make mistakes. But unless one is ten years old or less, lying is NEVER a mistake. It is an overt action; something one does with forethought. Clinton wasn’t just caught lying to us (on television with the wagging finger), but he lost his license to practice law because of his lack of integrity. I would think that by the time anyone rises to the level of “most powerful person on Earth,” they would have learned to tell the truth.

    As far as his impeachment was concerned, yes he was impeached but not convicted. So what? Impeachment is a political process. The fact that he wasn’t convicted says more about the Senate who collectively failed the American people by letting Clinton off easy. In the history of the United States, only two presidents have been impeached - and both were let off the hook.

    The bottom line is Bill Clinton is a confirmed liar. But the worst part of his lying is that he actually tried to thwart another American’s right to her day in court by suborning perjury. The words “Clinton” and “Integrity” should never be used in the same sentence unless it’s to emphasize what the man has none of.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 3:04 pm on Thu, May 30, 2013.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    I do not remember. I think he was calling someone a knucklehead

     
  • John Lucas posted at 3:01 pm on Thu, May 30, 2013.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    They are trying the same thing with Obama. You have to admire the consistency at being over the top liars and fear mongers. Sometimes one wonder if the American people will ever catch on to their nonsense.

     
  • Joanne Bobin posted at 2:56 pm on Thu, May 30, 2013.

    Joanne Bobin Posts: 4488

    Darn - what did I miss that was deleted?

     
  • Joanne Bobin posted at 2:52 pm on Thu, May 30, 2013.

    Joanne Bobin Posts: 4488

    This doesn't even apply to Mr. Kinderman since he has revealed he gets all of his healthcare free of charge at the VA clinic at McClellan or at one of the VA hospitals if he requires hospitalization.

    The House voted for impeachment on one count of perjury and one count of obstruction of justice for arising from the Lewinski scandal and the Paula Jones lawsuit. The Senate acquitted him - they only had 50 of the 2/3's needed to impeach.

    The fact remains that the Republicans tried to get Clinton on just about every thing they possibly could, with Ken Starr investigating every move he ever made including trying to accuse him of murder in the Vince Foster suicide.

    The topper of course was Newt Gingrich making an issue of Clinton's alleged sex scandals while he was still married to his second wife and at the same time was bedding Callista, then a Congressional staffer.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 2:25 pm on Thu, May 30, 2013.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Hate makes one irrational. Saying the word Clinton to people like Jerome is like feeding sharks bloody meat. The rational part of their mind quits working and they start foaming at the mouth. When one stops, backs away and looks at it analytically it is very interesting. It is a pavlovian thing. They have been conditioned to be insane

     
  • Eric Barrow posted at 2:04 pm on Thu, May 30, 2013.

    Eric Barrow Posts: 1591

    Clinton was impeached and acquitted I think we are still a country of laws and when someone is acquitted they are free and clear from accusations but the right is not happy with the outcome so there must be a conspiracy. As far as apologies you can find slick willy's at

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7r4e5Wg4PDI

    Also have you had to change insurers or Doctors because until you do you are just fear mongering

     
  • Jerome Kinderman posted at 1:45 pm on Thu, May 30, 2013.

    Jerome R Kinderman Posts: 2367

    Oh come now - please! Bill Clinton is the epitome of dishonesty; and his wife isn’t that far removed. He never owned up or apologized to the American people for wagging his finger at us insisting that he “never had sex with that woman, Miss Lewinsky.” For those of you still hung up on what the definition of “sex” and “is” are, then that’s something you’ll have to deal with. The fact is his impeachment had nothing to do with sex or even Miss Lewinsky - it had to do with his habitual lying and attempts to have others to lie for him. The President of the United States should be above such childish behavior - but he got caught and still tried to wriggle out of it. And now we’re finding out that Mr. Obama might have the same character flaws as his Democrat predecessor.

    Something coming down the pike for President Obama were his promises that if we wanted to keep our current health care provider, we will be able to do so. Of course he said that on numerous occasions with each time raising his voice so as to make us want to believe him. But now we've learned that that might not be the case. Of course I'm not at all surprised - and I'm sure there will be more lies to be uncovered in coming months when 2014 brings with it more unleashing of "Obamacare." But hey, it's not like he knew these things were untrue, right? After all, did he actually read the bill before he signed it? If not, then he might be able to rely upon that excuse.

     
  • Eric Barrow posted at 1:19 pm on Thu, May 30, 2013.

    Eric Barrow Posts: 1591

    yawning can be brought on by anxiety. bzzzz

     
  • Andrew Liebich posted at 12:58 pm on Thu, May 30, 2013.

    Andrew Liebich Posts: 2999

    [yawn]

     
  • Eric Barrow posted at 12:48 pm on Thu, May 30, 2013.

    Eric Barrow Posts: 1591

    Remember Andrew when you here the buzz it's already too late.

     
  • Joanne Bobin posted at 11:34 am on Thu, May 30, 2013.

    Joanne Bobin Posts: 4488

    Rule to live by - If you don't want to be targeted or killed accidentally by a drone strike, don't leave the US and take up with terrorists in a foreign country.

    Should we REALLY feel bad about Anwar al-Awlaki, a radical Muslim terrorist and traitor being killed?

    Do YOU, Mr. Liebich, REALLY feel bad that he wasn't captured and given his day in court? I doubt it.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 11:33 am on Thu, May 30, 2013.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    I never thought of it that way. Poor Jerome for no one lives up to his standards

     
  • John Lucas posted at 11:30 am on Thu, May 30, 2013.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    [smile]

     
  • Joanne Bobin posted at 11:09 am on Thu, May 30, 2013.

    Joanne Bobin Posts: 4488

    I find it interesting that Mr. Kinderman consistently remarks that the "majority" of the American people have no morals and lack "integrity, decency, and honesty."

    It must be so disappointing to live in a country in which one despises the majority of his countrymen and women, not to mention his president.

    I didn't think much of George Walker Bush, but I certainly didn't hate him. After all, it was his daddy's idea to try to "make a man" out of his ne'er do well son by propelling him to first governor, then president. HW tried to prop him up by stacking his cabinet and staff with all of his old cronies and poor Dubbya could only stand by while they bulldozed over him.

    The experience was so traumatic that the poor guy has been reduced to painting naked self-portraits of himself in the shower and bath. tsk, tsk, tsk!

     
  • Eric Barrow posted at 11:05 am on Thu, May 30, 2013.

    Eric Barrow Posts: 1591

    careful Andrew those drones can seeeee you.

     
  • Andrew Liebich posted at 10:58 am on Thu, May 30, 2013.

    Andrew Liebich Posts: 2999

    A "knucklehead" might refer to a president who has assassinated American citizens without due process as "honmorable."
    .[sleeping]

     
  • John Lucas posted at 10:55 am on Thu, May 30, 2013.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    So true. When you are so inept at governing (witness the Bush Administration) as the Republicans most certainly are to gain power you have go with your strength. If you have nothing positive to offer you only choice is to go negative al the time.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 10:50 am on Thu, May 30, 2013.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Integrity is not about being perfect. None of us are perfect. It is about owning up to your mistakes. Bill Clinton did. Has George Bush, Dick Cheney or Donald Rumsfeld ever owned up to anything they ever did? Republicans and Democrats have different definitions of what integrity is. Democrats think more along the things that Jesus taught. Republicans are more into Joe McCarthy.

     
  • Eric Barrow posted at 10:44 am on Thu, May 30, 2013.

    Eric Barrow Posts: 1591

    "Obama is simply Clinton, Part II. " that's the truth the way the right is acting is very similar to the way the treated Bill times two. When Clinton was President the right only spent about half of ther time looking for an excuse to take him down, although they were unable to, now those knuckleheads on the right spend 100% of there time trying to smear the good name of the honmorable Barack Hussein Obama President of these United States and Commander in Chief of the strongest military in history.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 10:42 am on Thu, May 30, 2013.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Mr. Cox, the fact the Bill Clinton is a whole tot more popular than Newt Gingrich is only debatable in your mind

     
  • John Lucas posted at 10:13 am on Thu, May 30, 2013.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    You being a person who thinks George Bush and Dick Cheney were men of integrity frankly leaves the question on whether you know what it is open to question.

     
  • Jerome Kinderman posted at 9:34 am on Thu, May 30, 2013.

    Jerome R Kinderman Posts: 2367

    Clinton's "popular" because the majority of the American people simply don't care about integrity, honesty or decency. As long as his troubles regarding his impeachment are thought be "just about sex," it won't ever matter. As a nation, we've lost our moral compass. From here the only way we can go is down.

    Obama is simply Clinton, Part II. The “perfect” president’s starting to show his true colors, but again – those who supported him won’t hold him accountable. And with a complicit media leaving him virtually alone (with few exceptions), he won’t be held to account either.

    Oh well.

     

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