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It is time to rethink Roe versus Wade

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Posted: Saturday, October 27, 2012 12:00 am | Updated: 6:20 am, Sat Oct 27, 2012.

It's interesting that while I was considering a letter of response to a subject raised by John Lucas in his letter published Sept. 27, John Herrick responded to some of the accusations Mr. Lucas made against the Republican party.

I quote Mr. Lucas: "There are several states with Republican majority mandating 'invasive ultrasounds before having an abortion for women who have been raped or victims of incest.'"

The vast number of abortions since Roe vs. Wade have not been performed for those reasons. In cases where they are, the perpetrator of the crime goes free to find another victim while the innocent product of the crime is slain to cover his tracks. Even under those circumstances, there are couples often willing to adopt and some mothers choose to keep their children.

The purpose of sonograms is to give the pregnant woman an opportunity to see her living, moving human baby and to realize it's not a blob of tissue.

Studies have shown that many post-abortion women suffer deep depression and remorse when they realize what they've done. Though we don't hear a lot about it, the trauma of having been a party to the destruction of his own pre-born child can also have a lasting effect on the father.

In its infamous Roe vs. Wade decision of 1973, the then Supreme Court invented a "Woman's Right to Privacy" as a so-called reason for abortion on demand.

Recently a young woman went public with the assertion that the government should pay for birth control products for women. So how "private" is that?

In their Roe vs. Wade decision, the Justices stated that they did not know when life begins. They admitted that if the time arrived when we knew the answer to that, Roe vs. Wade would collapse. Science now shows that life begins at conception.

So now is the time for Congress to pass a life at conception act. It's time to stop the slaughter of innocent human beings. Republicans are certainly not the only ones to value the life of the unborn.

Olive Francis

Lodi

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152 comments:

  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 10:56 am on Wed, Oct 31, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Mr Lucas stated with disbelief...Hail to the king! ( (of bubble people)

    Thank you John, coming from you, it is the highest of compliments.

    [beam]

    I know for a fact, that you perceive it! I am honored.[thumbup]

     
  • John Lucas posted at 9:07 am on Wed, Oct 31, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    In his campaign to become king of the bubble people Darrell Baumbach has cinched his claim to the title with the following:

    It must be hard for you John to be faced with the reality that Bush was a better president than Obama or Clinton.
    Bush was more honest and sincere than either of your idols.

    Hail to the king!

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 8:30 pm on Tue, Oct 30, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    It must be hard for you John to be faced with the reality that Bush was a better president than Obama or Clinton.
    Bush was more honest and sincere than either of your idols.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 4:15 pm on Tue, Oct 30, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Darrell, You voted for George Bush twice and watched the results of his foreign policy in Iraq and his economic policies in 2008. Instead of feeling shame in being so stupid to be a part of that and as a civic duty promising to never talk politics or vote again you double down on that idiocy. Need I say more?

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 3:19 pm on Tue, Oct 30, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Mr Lucas stated... Politically he (Obama) is trying to help all of us get through a hard economic time created by policies you endorse and have voted for.

    Thank you for substantiating my post in which I referenced blindness... perfect example. I do believe you sincerely perceive your statement as truth... it does not mean you lie, but simply that you cannot recognize the obvious.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 3:08 pm on Tue, Oct 30, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Mr Lucas stated...Darrell how is it that I always catch you not having your facts straight and you never catch me?

    More humor... thank you!

    Hint #1, if one is blind, they can not see, if they can not see, they will have difficulty knowing if someone catches them in anything.

    Hint #1, if one is blind, they most likely will not know what is right in front of their face... they in turn will not know what is factual since they miss so much of what happens...

    It is comical that you perceive that you know what is fact.

     
  • stan taves posted at 12:18 pm on Tue, Oct 30, 2012.

    Stan Taves Posts: 313

    ...never mind then.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 11:57 am on Tue, Oct 30, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Darrell how is it that I always catch you not having your facts straight and you never catch me?

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 11:43 am on Tue, Oct 30, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Mr Lucas stated...Darrell I am a Liberal. I believe in science and facts

    [lol]... Thanks for the humor Mr Lucas... its comedy at it's best

     
  • John Lucas posted at 11:30 am on Tue, Oct 30, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    I cannot believe the ignorance of your statement. It is the opposite of what you say. It is happiness that is fleeting and Joy that comes from within. I suggest you talk to your spiritual advisor though I doubt you have one. I think you see yourself at the top of the heap.

     
  • stan taves posted at 11:19 am on Tue, Oct 30, 2012.

    Stan Taves Posts: 313

    It seems clear to me that Mr. Lucas is confusing joy with happiness. Joy is a fleeting emotion; whereas happiness comes from a deeper understanding of purpose that can only be realized through the acceptance of God's will -- Just trying to help.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 10:47 am on Tue, Oct 30, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    No, I am not saying that. Different things make different people happy. The President is an outstanding family man who obviously loves and cares for his wife and family. Politically he is trying to help all of us get through a hard economic time created by policies you endorse and have voted for. Unlike you he is a humble man who does not think he knows it all. I think what makes him happy is trying to make other peoples live better. I also believe you are happy. You have convinced yourself that you are great intellect who has all the answers because of your belief in your own superiority. Judge for yourself whether this is real happiness or not.

     
  • stan taves posted at 10:30 am on Tue, Oct 30, 2012.

    Stan Taves Posts: 313

    If Mr. Lucas is saying that Barack Obama can not be genuinely happy, then I think we have finally found something that can be agreed upon.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 10:03 am on Tue, Oct 30, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Are we having fun yet?

     
  • John Lucas posted at 9:58 am on Tue, Oct 30, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Sometimes it is a false happiness of pompous self righteous hypocrites who have convinced themselves of their superior nature.

     
  • stan taves posted at 9:26 am on Tue, Oct 30, 2012.

    Stan Taves Posts: 313

    To deny God is to impede ones access to it; such is the domain of the fool. If the will of God is eternal then it should follow that humanity would be in search of God's will. Some say that the "search" is a fool's parade, but I argue that the search is the source of all happiness. In other words, one cannot find happiness without God.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 7:40 am on Tue, Oct 30, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Jerome said:

    My concern here is and has always been with those who may actually read these conversations and be dissuaded from learning more about God and Christ that might lead them away from what could be theirs – the gift of Eternal Salvation.

    You may be a "Christian" in the religious sense but you are a Republican. One cannot be a follower of the words of Jesus and believe in the stated ideals of the modern day Conservative Republican party. They are incompatible.

    From your statements on these pages you seem to think as long as you are against abortion and gay people you are following your alleged leader, Jesus. He said absolutely nothing about either.

    What he did talk about was loving your neighbor, helping the poor and the sick. We are a nation of individuals who through our government express who we are spiritually as a group. Republicans as a group have no problem watching the sick suffer and die and implement policies that help those who need nothing and make it worse for those in need.

    As to the gift of eternal life you seem to think you will get that because you believe in Jesus. You must think that because you believe that he existed physically. It is much more than that. You have to believe in what he said. Your best hope is that the Christian religion is bogus for if the criteria is believing in what Jesus said you will not make the cut. Words have meaning.

    When Jesus talked about people like you he used one of his favorite words. Hypocrite

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 7:39 am on Tue, Oct 30, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    I will try to translate Mr Crowder's post at 10:00 pm on Mon, Oct 29, 2012 to reflect what I hear from many atheists and liberal secular thinkers, and what Mr Crowder has posted on other threads.

    Christians are superficial and hypocrites. They believe in fairylands, superstitions and fantasy in order to comfort their lives. They inflict their irrational personal beliefs on others and put their noses in other people's business where it does not belong. Mr Crowder above all thinks Christians are absolutely stupid and has no doubt that Christians opposition to killing unborn babies is only based on the irrational perception that salvation exists.

    Maybe Mr Crowder is god. After all, he appears to know things impossible to know until after we die. It is why I think atheists are people of faith.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 6:38 am on Tue, Oct 30, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Mr Kinderman stated...When anyone approaches someone else's faith with the intention to mock and disparage them or simply to gain an upper hand in a political debate, they will blissfully resort to such tactics as I've witnessed here..

    I agree... which is why I asked Mr Crowder to show more respect by articulating his position without attempting to bait you... You are a classy person Mr Kinderman.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 6:34 am on Tue, Oct 30, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    copying and posting biblical passages only shows a lack of understanding. Since Mr Kinderman's point was that Mr Crowder lacked fundamental understand, Mr Crowder substantiated Mr Kinderman's point by failing to articulate his personal understanding to the passages he copied...

    Facts? hardly.

    Lastly Mr Lucas...be more kind to yourself. Referring to yourself as a bubble type person is not appropriate.

     
  • Jerome Kinderman posted at 10:32 pm on Mon, Oct 29, 2012.

    Jerome R Kinderman Posts: 2352

    Mr. Baumbach, I've written before that engaging in matters of faith on a forum such as this is often inherently dangerous. When anyone approaches someone else's faith with the intention to mock and disparage them or simply to gain an upper hand in a political debate, they will blissfully resort to such tactics as I've witnessed here. When certain people have proved time and again that they’re really not looking for truth, I know that attempting to discuss such matters maturely and respectfully will be a futile endeavor. While I do pity them, I also know that they deserve my prayers – and that is easily given.

    The Bible is not an easy Book to understand. Not only is it The Reference for those of us who DO believe in God, it is also a complicated history of mankind that culminates in a little “eye opener” of what we believe is to come.

    The mocking and disrespect I can handle – I’ve heard it all before. My concern here is and has always been with those who may actually read these conversations and be dissuaded from learning more about God and Christ that might lead them away from what could be theirs – the gift of Eternal Salvation.

    As such, I try hard to refrain from engaging them because I know that the result will be nothing of any real value.

     
  • Andy Crowder posted at 10:00 pm on Mon, Oct 29, 2012.

    Andy Crowder Posts: 245

    Fundamentalist Christians spend their lives pining for an eternity in paradise with Jesus. So concerned are they with the "salvation" of others that they knock on doors with their illustrated tracts and trudge through jungles to strip indigenous peoples of their native culture. And yet, when they think a tiny soul is about to skip the pain and suffering of human life, achieve immortality, and spend all eternity in perfect bliss with their sky god, they SCREAM that this is an atrocity. Your politics and your dogma are laughably inconsistent.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 9:20 pm on Mon, Oct 29, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    You hit the nail on the head Andy. When you present facts to the bubble people they run away in denial. To the bubble people anything that does not agree with their preconceived view of reality just cannot be true.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 8:20 pm on Mon, Oct 29, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Mr Kinderman, I have always there was a difference between understanding a topic and quoting froma book as a Mr Crowder does...

    When you said to Mr Crowder..." so much for a fundamental lack of understanding of the Holy Bible.", I think you nailed it.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 8:16 pm on Mon, Oct 29, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Mr Heuer stated... As a person of no faith you would of course be suspicious or want others of little or no faith

    Who are you talking about? no faith? I am confused.

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 8:04 pm on Mon, Oct 29, 2012.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1459

    Well Mr Crowder I have to stand corrected in my belief the bible was silent on abortion. I never understand people who have spent lots of thought on developing a position and yet when pressed to explain it they act as if it is unexplainable or are embarassed to explain it.Thanks for the post.

     
  • Andy Crowder posted at 7:55 pm on Mon, Oct 29, 2012.

    Andy Crowder Posts: 245

    I understand the Bible and ancient culture very well, Kinderman. You discount the truth because you can't face the contradiction with your dogma.

     
  • Jerome Kinderman posted at 6:54 pm on Mon, Oct 29, 2012.

    Jerome R Kinderman Posts: 2352

    No Mr. Crowder - so much for a fundamental lack of understanding of the Holy Bible.

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 6:42 pm on Mon, Oct 29, 2012.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1459

    My appologies my 4:45 post was to MR Kindeman.

     
  • Andy Crowder posted at 6:35 pm on Mon, Oct 29, 2012.

    Andy Crowder Posts: 245

    The Bible has plenty to say about the value of human fetuses.

    The Hebrew sky god says that abortion is not murder. A fetus is not considered a human life. Furthermore, infants less than one month old are not considered fully human. (Exodus 21:22-23, Leviticus 27:6, Numbers 3:15-16)

    God sometimes approves of killing fetuses. (Hosea 13:16, Hosea 9:16, Hosea 9:14)

    Sometimes the loving Christian God kills newborn babies to punish their parents. (2 Samuel 12:14)

    God sometimes causes abortions by cursing unfaithful wives. (Numbers 5:21-21, 27-28)

    God's law sometimes requires the execution (burning to death) of pregnant women. (Genesis 38:24)

    So much for the sanctity of unborn fetuses.

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 5:33 pm on Mon, Oct 29, 2012.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1459

    And yes you should appreciate Ms Bobin and Mr Lucas who do make the effort to provide you with references. I appreciate them.

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 5:31 pm on Mon, Oct 29, 2012.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1459

    Ok back at you. Can you cite where my depiction is in error? This is where you wanted my point by point criticism of Denesh De Sousa and the partisan hit piece "Obama 2016". Because I did not take notes while at the movie and to provide criticism I would have to Google like anyone else. DeSousa has been on Book TV which you say you watch. Anybody can Google critical reviews as well as favorable reviews. But you of course do this for delays rather than truely curious inquiries. Ultimately its simply you being lazy.So you got my first hand experience and you can of course not take my word I really don't care but you have to do your own homework. Besides you have shown that if someone actually gives you a research answer you find a dismissal comment. So much for the seaqrch for truth.

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 5:03 pm on Mon, Oct 29, 2012.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1459

    Humm Mumbo into jumbo. I like that.

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 4:56 pm on Mon, Oct 29, 2012.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1459

    Its a nondemotional question and credentialling is no more requiered than expected in any other post. As a person of no faith you would of course be suspicious or want others of little or no faith to show support for your nonreligious views. Asking valid question to someone professing to have a knowledge and shows a willingness to post their expertise opinion is not baiting. You of all should understand this.

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 4:45 pm on Mon, Oct 29, 2012.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1459

    There is an inherent contradiction in your 2:38 post where on the one hand you say ""I believe in the sanctity of human life - period." while on the other hand you have little compassion for the lives those that are born. You then would have no similar consideration of the sanctity of life for going to war or the results of capital punishment. You see no inherent contradiction in the sanctity of life in natural disaster. In other words your sanctity of life is not shared by any higher authority. So your sanctity of life is simply a personal conviction developed when you decided to call a fetus a baby you might see on a Gerger Baby Food jar. That would of course be infantacide. No one would condone that so thats why the word baby gets into the dilogue. Now it can be said that there is no reference to abortion in the bible. So your convictions are not based on any bibical teaching but simply your own druthers.. Or what might be considered support like ,do not kill, will find those contradictions in our actions as I've stated before. So what you want through supreme court decision is simply your personal conviction no better or worse than my conviction.

     
  • Andy Crowder posted at 4:06 pm on Mon, Oct 29, 2012.

    Andy Crowder Posts: 245

    Miscarried and aborted fetuses go to heaven? I was under the impression that an eternity in paradise was the goal for you folks. An infant that never experiences pain or suffering and is guaranteed eternal life in perfect paradise seems quite lucky. God chooses about 20 percent of all fetuses for this special privilege through miscarriage, and he kills scads more in stillbirth. Why should you worry about guaranteeing more souls saved to paradise? No chance aborted babies will wind up in Satan's grasp, right?

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 3:50 pm on Mon, Oct 29, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Mr Crowder, since you indicate in past posts that you are an atheist and look down on people of faith, maybe you should be honest and articulate your position without attempting to bait people...

     
  • Jerome Kinderman posted at 3:46 pm on Mon, Oct 29, 2012.

    Jerome R Kinderman Posts: 2352

    Heaven. Of course I know where you're going with this; but it won't hold an ounce of water.

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 3:26 pm on Mon, Oct 29, 2012.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1459

    Here is howthe making of "Obama 2016" was made.
    Lets see, interview 100 people but we can only use 4 and perhaps snippits of 6 more but the rest will have to be discarded because it won't support our racist views or slanted information. Lets see we'll need a map of the middle east and write in big letters "United Muslim States" that will really be something to get the conservatives to spend their money on. Never mind that the Sheites and Sunis never have gotten along. Oh and we need 50 readers to go through Obamas book and find something that can be used to show him as someone who didn't live in the suburbs of Lodi. He has to be made to look "different", as "radical" and of course possibly have met or chance encountered a questionable character. Never mind that Andrew Jackson found alliance with a pirate in his day that saved New Orleans. Ok we'll put it all together and do final edits next week that will guarantee millions fron the suckers.
    Oh and the visit with the brother where he was pictured in slum surroundings and is interviewed later wearing new slacks and white shirt that didn't have the store wrinkles or folds ironed out.
    And again where is the court case that determined Bill Clinton abused anybody?

     
  • Andy Crowder posted at 2:50 pm on Mon, Oct 29, 2012.

    Andy Crowder Posts: 245

    Do you think aborted and miscarried fetuses (act of God on the second one?) go to heaven or hell?

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 2:39 pm on Mon, Oct 29, 2012.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1459

    Obviously Mr Taves you hold your religious convictions strongly. Thats fine. However legislation can use religious beliefs to draw conclusions but laws can't be written enforcing religious beliefs. In other words you can't have a law because the bible tells us so. This could be desirous of one religion but there are a whole lot of folks that are worried about having other religious laws like sharia law imposed. This is why Oklahoma legislated that sharia law can't be imposed there. Also liberalism is not a religion at least in any of my religious studies. It was discussed in my political science classes.

     
  • Jerome Kinderman posted at 2:38 pm on Mon, Oct 29, 2012.

    Jerome R Kinderman Posts: 2352

    My opposition to abortion has absolutely NOTHING to do with what may or may not happen to a child once he or she is born. Such a concern in support of abortion is as abhorrent as the act itself.

    I believe in the sanctity of human life - period.

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 2:22 pm on Mon, Oct 29, 2012.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1459

    MR Kinderman in reading your post I thought, hum thats interesting but no controversy here. However when I reread your last paragraph
    "Faith CANNOT be separated from what it takes to keep this nation whole and strong. In fact, if it ever is removed (aborted), our great Democratic experiment will ultimately fail. They'll try - as we can plainly see even now - but they won't prevail. We’ve seen that happen too many times as history proves."

    I am a firm believer in intellectual freedom and believe everyone has a right to believe whatever they want as long as doesn't hurt anybody or keep me from my intellectual pursuits.

    However you do have a different idea of what of what keeps this nation whole and strong. But you allude to a "they" as in "They'll try - as we can plainly see even now - but they won't prevail. We’ve seen that happen too many times as history proves."

    I have no idea what you are refering to in this pronoun. And what is the history of the "they" you are talking about?

     
  • John Lucas posted at 1:59 pm on Mon, Oct 29, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Reading Mr. Taves is interesting for he always puts the mumbo into jumbo. He can say less with more words than even Mr Baumbach

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 1:47 pm on Mon, Oct 29, 2012.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1459

    MR Kinderman as to your 9:59 post we do differ. I have nothing to gain in the defense of a womans right to choose. However there are many people who want the right to choose and I do sympathize with their concerns. I do not wish to impose abortion on anyone that is unwilling as may happen in China. However your position wants to impose no abortion on those wanting the right. You say you can't wait for a favorable supreme court to impose your will on others. No one wants to impose anything on you.

    You would argue that it is not you but the outcome of the fetus that makes your decision. I don't want to discount your motives but I believe it is based on a an idealized view of life and child rearing where every child experiences a wholesome and enriched upbringing. However you fail to recognize how unwanted children seldom find this idealized situation and are often abused unsupported and deprived especially if the mother is not ready for parenthood.

    If you were to support efforts to aleviate these outcomes (other than adding to our overcrowded jails) as a result of your imposed will then we would probably have fewer needs for abortions. I don't know your stance on birth control is since many conservatives advocate making them illegal as well. But the way to reduce abortions is ready access to birth control.

    So again if your supreme court wish is realized that would in turn create a backlsh of people having as their sole agenda for elections and court decisions to reinstate their right at the exclusion of other issues. This is the continuation of our split society today and it is a never ending game of getting the right mix of political will to impose on the other half their will. We need to learn to live with one another rather than be routinely antagonistic to each other.

     
  • Jerome Kinderman posted at 1:05 pm on Mon, Oct 29, 2012.

    Jerome R Kinderman Posts: 2352

    There are still those who are confused when it comes down to freedom "of" religion as opposed to freedom "from" religion.

    Nowhere in the Constitution does it state that one's religious beliefs should not be considered when determining the crafting of our laws. Indeed, many of our leaders actually pray for guidance from God as they determine how to vote for or against a bill AND as they’re writing legislation. I would even submit that George Washington and Abraham Lincoln (as two significant examples) prayed as the duties of their office weighed so heavily upon them. Indeed, it is so obvious that the mention of God in the Gettysburg Address reveals just how important Lincoln's faith was to him as he worked to bring peace between the North and South.

    Faith CANNOT be separated from what it takes to keep this nation whole and strong. In fact, if it ever is removed (aborted), our great Democratic experiment will ultimately fail. They'll try - as we can plainly see even now - but they won't prevail. We’ve seen that happen too many times as history proves.

    Of course this is only what I believe based upon the FACTS as I known them to be.

     
  • stan taves posted at 12:15 pm on Mon, Oct 29, 2012.

    Stan Taves Posts: 313

    Once again Joanne, you are having difficulty interpreting that which is clearly written. Again: MY -- understanding -- of -- RELIGION -- tells -- Me. Tells me, Joanne, not you, not Tom, nor any one else. Clearly you would rather I not share my philosophy/religion with you and your ilk; and the same applies for your religion of liberalism that you can not help but espouse at the expense of anyone who would be so inclined as to read your absurd gibberish.

     
  • Joanne Bobin posted at 11:54 am on Mon, Oct 29, 2012.

    Joanne Bobin Posts: 4488

    Mr. Taves wrote: "My understanding of religion tells me that one can only realize immortality through the defence of God's will. If the fetus is not given the opportunity to become that which is willed by God, then the fetus can not be free."

    So, if religion, as you agree, is based solely on belief and not on fact, then your statement above, Mr. Taves, is simply not factual, but only your belief.

    And under the Constitution, although we are guaranteed the freedom to practice any or no religion, religious beliefs should not be considered when a practice such as abortion is determined to be legal or not. Which is why the SC found that abortion is legal under the Due Process clause of the 14th Amendment.

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 11:05 am on Mon, Oct 29, 2012.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1459

    Lets see, interview 100 people but we can only use 4 and perhaps snippits of 6 more but the rest will have to be discarded because it won't support our racist views or slanted information. Lets see we'll need a map of the middle east and write in big letters "United Muslim States" that will really be something to get the conservatives to spend their money on. Never mind that the Sheites and Sunis never have gotten along. Oh and we need 50 readers to go through Obamas book and find something that can be used to show him as someone who didn't live in the suburbs of Lodi. He has to be made to look "different", as "radical" and of course possibly have met or chance encountered a questionable character. Never mind that Andrew Jackson found alliance with a pirate in his day that saved New Orleans. Ok we'll put it all together and do final edits next week that will guarantee millions fron the suckers.

     
  • stan taves posted at 10:57 am on Mon, Oct 29, 2012.

    Stan Taves Posts: 313

    Jo Bob, is there any other kind-of religion?

     
  • stan taves posted at 10:55 am on Mon, Oct 29, 2012.

    Stan Taves Posts: 313

    Tom, stop being ridiculous. You made my point for me when you assert that the fetus is asleep for all "intents and purposes". You are not saying anything to support your postion. It's like trying to tell me that you pretty smart mostly. Sure, that might work for you -- whatever.

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 10:45 am on Mon, Oct 29, 2012.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1459

    And Mr Baumbach said "Ms Bobin attempts to diminish D' Souza's stature..." and Ms Bobin does such a wonderful job as well, don't you think?

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 10:38 am on Mon, Oct 29, 2012.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1459

    Huh???
    [unsure]

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 10:36 am on Mon, Oct 29, 2012.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1459

    Mr Taves said "Mr. Heuer's analysis of when life begins is based soley on a belief system that can not be support by fact." First what belief system do you believe I have? The fact is the fetus for all intent and purpose is sleeping. Nothing more nothing less. There are no thoughts. What could there possibly be in the way of thought? Even when an infant is born there is little thought and it is based on initial experiences after a full term birth. Cold air, slap on the bottom and mothers arms. These become the first experiences that form the basis of simplistic rudimentary thought. There is still hardly a sense of self identity. What other facts do you believe there might be?


     
  • Jerome Kinderman posted at 9:59 am on Mon, Oct 29, 2012.

    Jerome R Kinderman Posts: 2352

    Mr. Taves - Mr. Heuer's protracted analysis is likely what most liberals depend upon to defend the current law. I've got no argument about that because as it stands today, Roe v. Wade is the "law of the land."

    I, along with many other Americans simply believe the law (and its supporting "facts") is wrong. There are very few laws in the United States that are "settled." Most can be overturned and those that are are based upon who's in control of either crafting the laws or determining their Constitutionality. Frankly, I’m quite surprised that Roe v. Wade has survived for so long. It’s far and away the worst judicial decision in the history of our Republic – it’s horrific.

    I am confident that the tide will eventually turn where human life will be given the respect that it is due. Clearly, so called “progressives” have somehow convinced enough Americans that trees, animals and other non-human life are more important than our most innocent of human beings – those who ARE just one breath away from protection under the United States Constitution.

    I long for the day when the right case will reach the Supreme Court to reverse this travesty and scar on America.

     
  • Bobcatbob Ingram posted at 9:20 am on Mon, Oct 29, 2012.

    99er Posts: 119

    I believe You John Lucas. EVERY unwanted child is a tragedy. Every baby should be wanted. To be born unloved into this unloving world where 'Thugs' are glorified is a horror..... We could help this situation with the use of simple economics. .Now fellow concerned citizen, this is a brand new idea, so try to be brave and Yes it will be another Gov. program but the benefits will far outweigh the cost. ... As John Lucas pointed out, loved children do better and are happier than those that are Unloved and on the whole they turn out socially better, they tend to obey the law better and they in turn treat other humans better.....Every body agree ?? and Money cost savings ? the money cost savings will be enough to attract even the most conservative of Us... So Yes "My" plan is a double edged benefit to our society by vastly cutting down on unwanted pregnancies and the HORROR of being born into this world as a unwanted and unloved baby....The baby has no choice but to be born into this world and most of them will grow up with the feeling of being unloved, maybe even hated because now dads is hounded to pay and Mom can't go out with her girlfriends, which seems very important when you are Young. ....Heres how we can help this situation, We get those money spending 'Liberals' to create a fund that pays $2000.00 to every Male citizen between 18-35 who gets a free vasectomy at the local clinic..... As they say, " takes 2 to tango" and if we can take the unwilling Dads out of the equation, i'm guessing we save 10 million unwanted babies a year, without abortion....

     
  • Joanne Bobin posted at 9:03 am on Mon, Oct 29, 2012.

    Joanne Bobin Posts: 4488

    And Mr. Taves' analysis of religion is based solely on a belief system that cannot be supported by fact.

     
  • Joanne Bobin posted at 8:59 am on Mon, Oct 29, 2012.

    Joanne Bobin Posts: 4488

    Please, Mr. Taves, DEFEND your thinking on this improbable comparison.

     
  • Joanne Bobin posted at 8:56 am on Mon, Oct 29, 2012.

    Joanne Bobin Posts: 4488

    Dinesh D'Souza has lost credibility with his former colleagues.

    He was FORCED to resign from King's College when he committed adultery with his mistress and then became engaged to her while still married to his wife of 20 years.

    He was also FORCED to resign from his post at the Hoover Institution due to his book "The Enemy at Home" that argues that Islamic terrorism was "a justified response to American moral decadence."

    You can think all you like what a great person D'Souza is. He is really a disgraced piece of human trash.

     
  • stan taves posted at 8:29 am on Mon, Oct 29, 2012.

    Stan Taves Posts: 313

    Mr. Heuer's analysis of when life begins is based soley on a belief system that can not be support by fact. Get your facts straight, Tom.

     
  • stan taves posted at 8:20 am on Mon, Oct 29, 2012.

    Stan Taves Posts: 313

    Once again: if you don't believe in slavery then one can not effectively defend the use of abortion.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 7:09 am on Mon, Oct 29, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Ms Bobin attempts to diminish D' Souza's stature by stating... Never obtained a graduate degree, but was previously lauded as a great thinker.

    In reality, he is held in high esteem. Born in Mumbai, India, D’Souza came to the U.S. as an exchange student and graduated Phi Beta Kappa from Dartmouth College in 1983.

    In 2010, Dinesh D’Souza was named the president of The King’s College, a Christian college located in New York City. The mission of The King’s College is to transform society by preparing students for careers in which they help to shape and eventually to lead strategic public and private institutions. D’Souza brought a distinguished 25-year career as a writer, scholar, and public intellectual to The King’s College. D’Souza also served as John M. Olin Fellow at the American Enterprise Institute, and the Robert and Karen Rishwain Fellow at the Hoover Institution at Stanford University.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 6:58 am on Mon, Oct 29, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Ms Bobin sarcastically stated... Perhaps we should have more movies like Obama's America 2016 that are based on reality with no bias whatsoever.

    Let me get this straight... Obama wrote a book and recorded an audio version...2016 for 15 % of the time plays recordings of Obama talking. Obama himself describes people and events in his life in his book. These very same people are and events are interviewed and recorded in the movie. Yet, this movie has no reality.

    Hummm... friends of Obama that knew him in Indonesia are on film talking about what Obama was like, this also is not real...according to Ms Bobin

    Maybe Ms Bobin would be more impressed if animated characters were used and Rush Limbaugh narrated the audio...

    Or, Maybe her idea of a documentary is watching Saturday Night Live and Stewart's Daily Show as she has often quoted as being factual... Why am I reminded of the book "1984" by Orson Wells when I think of Ms Bobin's thinking... She must be heading the "Ministry of Truth" from that book.

    Personally, I trust Obama talking without editing and interviews with real people that Obama states are real... Ms Bobin is simply embarrassed and ashamed that the movie uncovered the real Obama she wants to hide.


     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 6:02 am on Mon, Oct 29, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Josh Morgan stated... Mr. Heuer, let's just say I've been around the block several times and will always be pro choice as long as children will be born into addiction, poverty, no parents, filth and and any of the other consequences of a LIVING hell. I believe there are many situations that being born into are far worse than not being born at all

    There are not too many things said online that truly bother me. But this post does. Unfortunately, I have heard this and even said it myself when I was ignorant of the world. After living in third world countries where real poverty exists as does it's consequences, I finally matured and understood how heartless and cold Mr Morgan's position is. I sincerely felt bad about me for ever having shared Mr Morgan's thought.

    I have met hundreds of children that fit Mr Morgan's description. I have held their hand and talked with them. I watched them play with other children and laugh, smile and enjoy themselves in what we consider filth. Many have no parents and live in villages...I have had meals with these children where we shared eating bugs, worms, insects and ants on top of sticky rice. We smiled and enjoyed each others company.

    If Mr Morgan had his way, these children who I spent wonderful time with and year after year see their growth and changes, would have never existed.
    I also know of wealthy families whose children suffers more than these children I met. Should we abort these children as well?

    Many human beings suffer in life. I am not god. I do not want to determine who lives or dies. I simply think it is our responsibility to help those who suffer so they can experience joy... which is worth living for.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 5:41 am on Mon, Oct 29, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Mr Heuer stated...As long as the discussion remains confused and emotionalized with using the term "babies" instead of fetus no serious discussion can be held about abortion.

    I imagine Stalin, Mao, and Hitler all had the very same thought as Mr Heuer as they calmly ordered the elimination of something they considered less than human. How easy it is to take an action like ridding the world of a blight( Jews) or land squatters (German farmers) or obstructionist( protestors).

    Yes, when someone can eliminate words that makes things emotional like calling an unborn baby a tissue mass or fetus, it makes the discussion so much easier to have. It is why they use happy positive terms like “pro choice” or “woman's right to choose” or “ have rights to determine what to do with her body as she pleases”... it makes the discussion less confusing , sterile and unemotional.

    Its why soldiers can carry out the orders to kill the target. When one finely understands that they are killing a human being, which an unborn baby is, that regret and confusing emotions come into play because killing innocent life is just so confusing. Right Eric?
    Please understand, I am not religious. I do however understand when a woman becomes pregnant, it is a baby inside, not a rabbit goat or thing... it is a baby.

    If you want the right to kill an unborn baby, then fine, call it what it is and then kill the unborn baby... that is your choice.

     
  • Joanne Bobin posted at 5:39 am on Mon, Oct 29, 2012.

    Joanne Bobin Posts: 4488

    "I assume you have never watched movies at a theatre as 90% of all movies are made with extreme left wing bias."

    Perhaps we should have more movies like Obama's America 2016 that are based on reality with no bias whatsoever.

    Here are a few factoids for you about Dinesh D'Souza - the author of this masterpiece of factual information that you may not know:

    Never obtained a graduate degree, but was previously lauded as a great thinker.

    Most of his "books" are a rehashing of his previous writings - nothing new or original.

    Wrote a book called "The Enemy at Home" that argues that Islamic terrorism was "a justified response to American moral decadence." Conservatives were quite upset and D'Souza was forced to resign his post at the Hoover Institution.

    His publication of "The Roots of Obama's Rage" (the basis for 2016) was derided by intellectuals on the RIGHT and the left. He was a laughingstock among his former collegues.

    He was most recently forced to resign his position as president of King's College (a small evangelical school in Manhattan) because of his engagement to a 29 year old woman - HE WAS STILL MARRIED TO HIS WIFE of 20 years.

    He has been forsaken by the think tanks that previously viewed him as a great conservative intellectual - he is now viewed as a buffoon.

    But you are worried about Hollywood fiction being left wing?

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 5:17 am on Mon, Oct 29, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Relax Mr Luucas, I am not insane. The correct term is skeptcal. When a person like yourself wants to substantiate a point, he first comes out and says "there are studies"...then when someone asks, what studies, they look for one or two that support their preconceived ideas and like a child expect everyone to think it is truth.

    I happen to be a grown up and understand a book or study is meaningless without many independent objective studies. Even then, studies are mostly theories and not practiced in the real world. Unless done with double blind techniques and scientific method, I do not trust studies.

    Lastly, since your reality is so one sided and narrow focused, if you perceive it as truth, it is likely to be distorted.

    So I was hoping there were 15-20 studies done independently by different people at different times that would increase the chances of truth being achieved.

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 11:06 pm on Sun, Oct 28, 2012.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1459

    MR Kinderman hit the nail on the head when he stated below "The only thing that separates a dead “fetus” and a live “human being” is one breath of fresh air!." As long as the discussion remains confused and emotionalized with using the term "babies" instead of fetus no serious discusion can be held about abortion. Because ultimatly you have to discuss the definition of life. Alot was made over Karen Shiho who was brain dead and on expensive machines to keep her "alive", ie., keep the heart beating, but there was no LIFE. The husband had agreed with the doctors that everything had been tried and her condition was not going to reverse and by all definition she was "living dead". Its a form of animism, which like idol worship, we tend to ascribe human traits to inanimate objects. Like refering to a ship as a she. Karen Shivo had been alive but once the brain is gone, the personality is gone. However open eyes, nervous ticks, all lend to the notion that something was alive. It is a very limited definition of life. Even enhancing that definition many would seek euthanasia.

    It has only been in recent times that infant mortality has not been an everyday occurance in huge numbers from natural causes. Still borns, premies, and breached babies obviously never had much of a chance not tall hat long ago. Sanitation made a great difference.

    What exists in the womb is potential. The potential for life. If it makes it it can become a life. When does it become life? When it has its first thoughts from experiences and has a sense of self. Like Karen Shivo a beating heart does not constitute life. You can say she is alive as a technicality but there is no life. So as MR Kinderman alluded to above there can be no life before the first breath. There are no thoughts, no self identification and no memories. What could it possibly be thinking. After it is born the first breath and exposure to air below 98.6 degrees and its first cry begins the establishment of self awareness. Before that we may engage in wishful thinking and emotionalism or practice animism to something thats akin to an appendix before birth. So if we can avoid the emotionalism we can discuss what we really need to talk about to come to terms on this issue.

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 7:52 pm on Sun, Oct 28, 2012.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1459

    The problm with the religious argument is that we are left to interpret what is the will of god. If miscarriages, still borns, premies,occur then was that the will of god? Then you have the politician who believes that rape was the will of god and the mother should bring the child to term as a result. So if someone decides to have an abortion would this too not be considered an act of god as the rapist is interpreted? If we simply go by the decision MR Kinderman goes by that says abortion is wrong because the bible says not to kil. This immediatly comes into conflict with our capital punishment stance and our war stance. It is much easier to give a pass on a defensive war but in a preemptive or offensive war it becomes a real murky question. Of course if we were a christian nation (new testament) and turned the other cheek and did not kill we would not have ever won our independence and woulld have been subject to repeated invasions and serving other ruling countries. So are our acts truely free willed or are they what is intended by god? If a sking accident occurs because of recklessness and the skier dies was it an act of god or the skiers suicide or just an accident. Those that practice dangerous behaviors just for the thrill knowing the risks but when fatalities (or even accidents) happen is this then a question between free will (suicide) or act of god.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 7:42 pm on Sun, Oct 28, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Darrell said:

    Mr Lucas, can you post 12-20 more links of different studies, one or two studies is not very representative of reality.. what you posted is only representative of the findings you desire.

    Darrell you are insane. First I point to the book I got the info from. Then you ask what studies. I supply you with the study done by people at the University of Chicago. I could show you a 100 studies and you would deny it because you are into truthiness. You do not use your brain but your gut. Science is only relevant if it coincides with beliefs you already have . Grow up

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 7:08 pm on Sun, Oct 28, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    love cspan... can get unfiltered information. Glad you watch it Mr Heuer.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 6:02 pm on Sun, Oct 28, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Mr Lucas, can you post 12-20 more links of different studies, one or two studies is not very representative of reality.. what you posted is only representative of the findings you desire.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 5:56 pm on Sun, Oct 28, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Mr Lucas... I would think you too would think Mr Barrow not in touch with reality when it comes to this issue, after all, your far left wing radical sister, Cynthia Neely, is permitted to write her biased rants at her liking.[beam][whistling]

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 5:56 pm on Sun, Oct 28, 2012.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1459

    Mr Morgan
    I couldn't agree with you more as I stated above. It is great to read that Lodi is making an attempt to deal with gangs. Only time will tell if that is a serious endeavor or half hearted attempt. Gangs and gang violence are at the root of many problems in our society. And much more ugently need our attention than what we are being made to feel are more important. Thanks again for your opinion I feel we share.

     
  • Andy Crowder posted at 5:49 pm on Sun, Oct 28, 2012.

    Andy Crowder Posts: 245

    Are you saying that from a reference point of Christianity, miscarried fetuses and aborted babies burn in hell forever?

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 5:41 pm on Sun, Oct 28, 2012.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1459

    Great book John
    When Darrell asked about the studies I wanted to say he just gave you the book. Also Darrell and I may have something in common if indeed he watches CSpan on weekends for the Book TV interviews where the "Freakonomics" authors were interviewed.

    It is always easy for middle class people or higher to envision a life of raising kids and being able to send them to school and can afford even just the basics for them. Have visions of girl scouts, soccer, basebal or even college. These same people can't even imagine a life of poverty where if you aren't addicted those around you probably are. Violence is a norm. Being raised in a crime zone that threatens your childrens well being if not their lives is a nightmare no one wants. And leaving is not an option if you can't afford anything else or you have other family you need to support. Where the stores with the basic necessities aren't around because they are afraid of the neighborhood because the police don't want to go there either. We applaud the guy in the liquer store who stood up to the punk, rightly or wrongly, but in gang areas they come in numbers a single guy can't stand up to. So they leave. It is truely a horrer story that I think needs to be addressed before we attempt to rid ourselves of abortion.

     
  • stan taves posted at 5:30 pm on Sun, Oct 28, 2012.

    Stan Taves Posts: 313

    Which religion are you referring to Andy? My understanding of religion tells me that one can only realize immortality through the defence of God's will. If the fetus is not given the opportunity to become that which is willed by God, then the fetus can not be free. In other words, it is only throught the defence of God's will -- freedom/immortality -- that one can come to understand the immortality of their own soul. It's all about opportunity, Andy, and abortion is the thief of the opportunity.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 5:14 pm on Sun, Oct 28, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    http://pricetheory.uchicago.edu/l
    evitt/Papers/DonohueLevittTheImpactOfLegalized2001.pdf

     
  • John Lucas posted at 5:12 pm on Sun, Oct 28, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    sorry here it is:
    http://pricetheory.uchicago.edu/levitt/Papers/DonohueLevittTheImpactOfLegalized2001.pdf

     
  • John Lucas posted at 5:11 pm on Sun, Oct 28, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    http://pricetheory.uchicago.edu/levitt/Papers/DonohueLevittTheImpactOfLegalized2001.pdf

     
  • John Lucas posted at 5:07 pm on Sun, Oct 28, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    [beam] Darrell accusing someone else not being in reality. ROFL

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 5:01 pm on Sun, Oct 28, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    MsBobin stated...The Republican Party has historically been against sex education. "Leave it to the parents" - that worked out well.
    The Republican Party has historically been against sex education. "Leave it to the parents" - that worked out well.

    Actually, Ms. Bobin is sadly mistaken. Most conservatives simply do not want schools to encourage sexual activity by showing boys and girls how to use a cucumbers and condoms in classes of six graders.

    They do want parents to be involved and informed what schools teach. They want schools to discourage sexual activity.


     
  • Andy Crowder posted at 4:53 pm on Sun, Oct 28, 2012.

    Andy Crowder Posts: 245

    A serious question for those opposing abortion on religious grounds:

    What happens to these aborted fetuses (and the millions your God spontaneously aborts through miscarriage) in the view of your religion? Do they go to heaven? What would be wrong with that? Isn't that the goal--to get to heaven? If some of these fetuses had developed into babies and been born into violent and unloving homes, it's inevitable that many would never be law abiding believers and would end up burning in hell forever. Wouldn't it be morally superior for these fetuses to go straight to heaven to be with Jesus and avoid any possibility of an eternity in hell?

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 4:44 pm on Sun, Oct 28, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    They have done studies... really?

    What studies?. Who funded the studies?

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 4:42 pm on Sun, Oct 28, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Mr. Barrow stated...The Lodi News sentinel is as biased paper has I have ever seen

    I can only assume you have never read the LA Times, San Francisco Chronicle,
    Chicago Tribune, USA Today, Stockton Record, Sacramento Bee, The Boston Globe and 90 % of all other papers that are normally biased far left.

    On TV, I assume you have never watched PBS, CCN, NSNBC, CBS, ABC…
    I assume you have never watched movies at a theatre as 90% of all movies are made with extreme left wing bias

    Lodi News is by far balanced and fair. I think Mr. Barrow’s is not in reality.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 4:29 pm on Sun, Oct 28, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    It is illegal in thailand but the law is ignored as it will be here if you get your way.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 4:27 pm on Sun, Oct 28, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    They have done studies on what you are saying. Abortion was legalized in the late 1960's in a few states. The crime rate started going down approximately 18 years later. The same thing happened 18 years after Roe vs Wade. It is all documented in the book Freakonomics. The big lie the pro-birth forces tell is how many millions have died. Most women eventually have children. The Children do much better when the women is emotionally financially prepared and mature enough to give a child what it needs. What the pro-birth forces have done is make women give birth leading to the conditions you have described.The total population is not that much different but the conditions the children go through is. It is a short sided vision.

     
  • Eric Barrow posted at 3:55 pm on Sun, Oct 28, 2012.

    Eric Barrow Posts: 1513

    The Lodi News sentinel is as biased paper has I have ever seen. No journalistic morals. No balance. No sense of fair play. Shame on them.

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 3:46 pm on Sun, Oct 28, 2012.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1459

    Actually it could be more like pigs. Did you know human and pig embreos are pretty much identiclal? Of course you might find a lot of recognition after they are born as well.

     
  • Josh Morgan posted at 3:45 pm on Sun, Oct 28, 2012.

    Josh Morgan Posts: 532

    "Mr Morgan I don't know how old you are but I have many conservative friends who go back a few years and they too scratch their heads and say when did we start being so against abortion."

    Mr. Heuer, let's just say I've been around the block several times and will always be pro choice as long as children will be born into addiction, poverty, no parents, filth and and any of the other consequences of a LIVING hell. I believe there are many situations that being born into are far worse than not being born at all. Our party has allowed the religious right to take control when they don't come close to represent the vast majority. Just my opinion.

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 3:43 pm on Sun, Oct 28, 2012.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1459

    If you can continue to think that way it will go along way in helping you.

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 3:42 pm on Sun, Oct 28, 2012.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1459

    Good point Mr Crowder. Its kind of like the Michael Dukakis question thrown back at the conservatives. Do they really want child visitation rights or sleep overs with the rapist? Does the husband really want to look the guy in the eye knowing he had an intimate encounter with his wife? Perhaps talking to his friends about her? It is nightmarish. The rape is often not a stranger.

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 3:33 pm on Sun, Oct 28, 2012.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1459

    Why aren't they industrialized? Is it because there are too many people? It is always peculiar that such a principle applied to the unborn doesn't apply to the living population. Its kind of like having people hungary but deciding your food (cows) are to be worshiped rather than eaten.

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 3:22 pm on Sun, Oct 28, 2012.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1459

    Nice post Joanne
    This topic is very devisive and deserves attention.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 3:21 pm on Sun, Oct 28, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    I prefer to adapt Thai law to address Mr Crowder's concern.

    Article 305 of Thai Penal Code states that abortion is illegal except in cases when it is committed by a medical practitioner and is considered only as necessary if the same endangers the health of the mother or when the pregnancy is due to sexual offenses such as rape and incest.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 3:19 pm on Sun, Oct 28, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Mr Heuer stated...They are not babies...

    Good point Mr Heuer... Of course, everyone knows it is a rabbit until born, then magically turns into human babies.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 3:16 pm on Sun, Oct 28, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Yes.. that is the excuse all democrats give for not wanting picture ID's

    Absurd to think anyone buys that... Florida desires to protect the integrity of its political system. Democrats what to protect fraud and gain votes no matter what. The ends justifies the means...always with liberals...

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 3:12 pm on Sun, Oct 28, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Mr Heuer stated...I have many conservative friends who go back a few years and they too scratch their heads and say when did we start being so against abortion.

    In Thailand, abortion is against the law. Their population is mixed but mostly not industrialized...no one scratches their head and wonders why they are pro life... I think they scatch the head and wonder why Americans are so thirsty for abortions.

    Article 305 of Thai Penal Code states that abortion is illegal except in cases when it is committed by a medical practitioner and is considered only as necessary if the same endangers the health of the mother or when the pregnancy is due to sexual offenses such as rape and incest.

    Their culture seems to work just fine with this law.

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 2:48 pm on Sun, Oct 28, 2012.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2830

    Sounds like Ms. Bobin is trying to resurrect Air America with her talking points full of distortions and half-truths. But don't try to convince her it's an exercise in futility.

     
  • Andy Crowder posted at 2:40 pm on Sun, Oct 28, 2012.

    Andy Crowder Posts: 245

    if this daughter of yours were to become pregnant as the result of a rape, would you want to force her to carry the child to term? Assuming she is married, how would this affect the relationship with her husband and other children? How would you feel if the biological father of the child, the rapist, would not allow her to give the child up for adoption, but instead wanted to raise her baby?

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 2:39 pm on Sun, Oct 28, 2012.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1459

    They are not babies. And its been going on naturally and intentionally both legally and illegally for eons since it was discovered what a FETUS was and where it was located. see my post below.

     
  • Joanne Bobin posted at 2:07 pm on Sun, Oct 28, 2012.

    Joanne Bobin Posts: 4488

    The key to ending and/or severely cutting the rates of abortion is educating our population about birth control.

    The Republican Party has historically been against sex education. "Leave it to the parents" - that worked out well.

    The Republican Party wants to pass a Personhood Amendment that will not only end abortion, but put an end to certain types of BC - the pill, the morning after pill, IUD's, etc. All of these PREVENT a fertilized egg from implanting in the uterus. Since the egg is already fertilized - these methods of BC will be MURDER.

    The Republican Party, this year, threw a hissy fit over mandating that employer insurance plans cover BC 100% - no COPAY. No, that was a threat to everything they believe in.

    The head of the Republican Party - Rush Limbaugh - called a woman and s l u t and asked why taxpayers should pay for her to have BC for her unlimited sexual encounters.

    Why, why, do we want to return to the 19th Century? Control - the Republican Party is trying to control 1/2 of our population by restricting their reproductive rights.

     
  • Joanne Bobin posted at 1:54 pm on Sun, Oct 28, 2012.

    Joanne Bobin Posts: 4488

    We're not in the 60's. This is 2012. These things should have been eliminated 50 years ago along with Jim Crow and the Black Panthers and the Weather Underground.

    These are MAINSTREAM REPUBLICAN OPERATIVES who are running this. That it itself should be scary.

    T"his week’s New Yorker features a blistering investigation by Jane Mayer into Hans von Spakovsky, a leading propagator of voter fraud myths. His work has led to a flurry of legislation and voting restrictions pushed by Republicans.

    Spakovsky, a Republican lawyer who worked in the Bush administration and is a senior legal fellow at the Heritage Foundation, is a key supporter of True the Vote, the Houston-based group that has been pushing for these new laws. “Although the group has a spontaneous grassroots aura,” Mayer writes, “it was founded by a local Tea Party activist, Catherine Engelbrecht, and from the start it has received guidance from intensely partisan election lawyers and political operatives, who have spent years stoking fear about election fraud.”

     
  • Joanne Bobin posted at 1:48 pm on Sun, Oct 28, 2012.

    Joanne Bobin Posts: 4488

    Of course you don't want this as a campaign issue - neither do Republicans, but the slow thinkers than dominate the party keep throwing fuel on the flames.

    Repress the issues of reproductive rights. Cover it up. Don't make it a prominent issue - that and voter registration fraud and voter ID laws - we'll get elected and reach our goal of a one party country.

     
  • Joanne Bobin posted at 1:46 pm on Sun, Oct 28, 2012.

    Joanne Bobin Posts: 4488

    Frankly - it is designed to stop Democratic voters - witness the PA State Senator:

    This weekend, Pennsylvania Republican House Leader Mike Turzai (R-PA) finally admitted what so many have speculated: Voter identification efforts are meant to suppress Democratic votes in this year’s election.

    At the Republican State Committee meeting, Turzai took the stage and let slip the truth about why Republicans are so insistent on voter identification efforts — it will win Romney the election, he said:

    “We are focused on making sure that we meet our obligations that we’ve talked about for years,” said Turzai in a speech to committee members Saturday. He mentioned the law among a laundry list of accomplishments made by the GOP-run legislature.

    “Pro-Second Amendment? The Castle Doctrine, it’s done. First pro-life legislation – abortion facility regulations – in 22 years, done. Voter ID, WHICH IS GONNA ALLOW GOVERNOR ROMNEY TO WIN THE STATE OF PENNSYLVANIA, DONE.”

    Turzai wasn't even shy about it.

    Video in case you think this is from some liberal conspiracy website:

    http://youtu.be/EuOT1bRYdK8

     
  • Joanne Bobin posted at 1:40 pm on Sun, Oct 28, 2012.

    Joanne Bobin Posts: 4488

    Hypocrisy - no. Florida was trying to eliminate as many voters who are registered Democrats as fast as they possibly could. FACT.

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 1:30 pm on Sun, Oct 28, 2012.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1459

    what got left on the cutting room floor is:
    shut the whole process down during and after rape to avoid pregnancy you realize the extent of this thinking taking place. Another reason sex education is so important.

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 1:13 pm on Sun, Oct 28, 2012.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1459

    Mr Morgan I don't know how old you are but I have many conservative friends who go back a few years and they too scratch their heads and say when did we start being so against abortion. It was a common belief that if there wasn't abortion then there would be more to feed on welfare. Studies have shown that when areas get industrialized birth rates go down as compared to high unemployment areas where it seems more opportunistic to increasing birth rates. For the highly industrialized folks children are a choice and therefore held in high importance. In high unemployment areas sex is diversionary, its constant close encouters with the spouse and though offspring were not an objective it becomes an unintended consequence. It is easy to think that of course if you have sex the possibility of pregnancy increases significantly. However peole still have strange ideas about what what may avoid pregnancy. If its close to menses then maybe I don't have to worry. If a certain tea or other concoction is drunk then that will stop conception. These seem strange but if you listen to congressmen who say a woman can shut the whole process down during and after rape to avoid pregnancy you realize the extent of this thinking taking place. Another reason sex education is so important.

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 12:36 pm on Sun, Oct 28, 2012.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2830

    Ms. Bobin:

    And we haven't even come to the topic of the right-wing group "True the Vote" which openly practices VOTER INTIMIDATION under the guise of "monitoring" the polls on election day.

    Ms. Bobin,

    So you don't think "True the Vote" is attempting to create a positive atmosphere? Unlike in the 60's. Do you honestly believe when the Black Panthers and the Weather Underground tried to intimidate people at the voting centers in Chicago in the 60's with their guns they were just bluffing?

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 12:35 pm on Sun, Oct 28, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Josh Morgan stated...As a conservative Republican I am adamantly pro choice and most of my Republican friends are as well. Our party needs to get off this subject

    I agree Josh, as I can vote for any conserative no matter their position on abortion. I do not want this as a campagin issue. However, I do think it needs to be articulated that prochoice is an inaccurate word when it comes to abotion.

    As long as a person says they are in favor of legalizing a woman's right to end the life of their unborn baby, and that is the definition of prochoice, I have no objection.

    I want to appeal to a person's heart and soul in deciding to end the life of an unborn baby or leting him/her live. I do not want politics to be the guide.

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 12:25 pm on Sun, Oct 28, 2012.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2830

    Ms Bobin wrote:


    And we haven't even touched on the subject of laws passed in REPUBLICAN states designed to prevent legitimate voters from getting to vote period - requiring ID, cutting short early voting, telling people that election day is November 8th:

    -Frankly,

    Unless it's for dishonest reason, I can't understand why ANYONE would be opposed to voters showing ID proving who they are at the voting centers.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 12:20 pm on Sun, Oct 28, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    The state of Florida recently engaged in a campaign to fight voter fraud, combing through their voter rolls to weed out illegitimately-registered voters

    So what did Obama do? He sent his attack dog “Holder” to sue Florida..

    Why is that.? Obviously, Obama knew that the illegitimately-registered voters in Florida would vote for democrats including himself.

    Imagine how corrupt Obama would have to be to sue Florida because they wanted to protect they integrity of their political system...

    Now Democrats are accusing republicans of voter fraud... Amazing hypocrisy.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 12:08 pm on Sun, Oct 28, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405


    Ms Bobin stated... "Election officials in six Florida counties are investigating what appears to be "hundreds” of cases of suspected voter fraud by a GOP consulting firm that has been paid nearly $3 million by the Republican National Committee[lol][lol][whistling]

    Ms Bobin is having fun this Sunday and clearly is disingenuous at best...

    She pretends that Republicans are participating in voter fraud yet Democrats are frothing at the mouth at the suggestion that voters should have to present a picture identification verifying who the voter really is...

    I'm sure ACORN type democrat organizations would be out of business immediately if they had to present a picture ID of all the dead people they register... can you imagine how gruesome a picture of Jimmy Hoffa would be if they had him vote from the grave... Oh my!

     
  • Jerome Kinderman posted at 12:07 pm on Sun, Oct 28, 2012.

    Jerome R Kinderman Posts: 2352

    In Lafayette, California where my oldest daughter lives, directly across from the BART station are Crosses for the men and women who have died in the Iraqi and Afghanistan Wars. Of course the site began as a protest to these campaigns, but I view them as a Field of Honor for those who sacrificed themselves in the name of Freedom.

    Although I haven’t had the opportunity to pass by that field for some time, I am confident that it is still lovingly maintained; or at least it should be. The next time I visit my daughter, I will take the time to view it. But take a look at it here: http://tinyurl.com/5925ex. It's truly amazing.

    Imagine how large the field would have to be to if such a memorial was erected for all those babies slaughtered since 1973 in the name of "What?" What exactly is the purpose behind the killing of unborn human beings?

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 11:59 am on Sun, Oct 28, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    How funny Ms Bobin is. She wants to divert attention from the two leaders running for president.

    We have Obama, who gave $800,000 to ACORN to register 1000's of dead people and disney characters like porky pig, to Mitt Romney which has not given money to corrupt organizations...and instead gives millions of dollars to charity to support the poor. When Obama gives money, it is to buy votes from the grave.

    We need a leader who does not have such dirty hands as Obama so obviously does...

     
  • Jerome Kinderman posted at 11:29 am on Sun, Oct 28, 2012.

    Jerome R Kinderman Posts: 2352

    First, “Pro Choice” sounds so “American,” doesn’t it – as if abortion ought to be a part of the Bill of Rights, right up there with the right to worship as we please. That might be fine with you and I support your right to hold that opinion and voice it whenever and wherever you please. But to suggest that the party (or anyone else) should “get off this subject” is terribly arrogant and very un-American.

    Abortion - the killing of unborn children in the womb - will always be a contentious subject. As long as there are people who believe life begins at conception, it will NEVER be settled. In fact, it might very well be the one thing that tears this nation apart. And while that would literally break my heart, I can think of no better reason. It’s sad really; there are little fish in the Delta that are protected better than babies who simply haven’t taken their first breath. It’s beyond sad. It’s an atrocity.

     
  • Joanne Bobin posted at 11:22 am on Sun, Oct 28, 2012.

    Joanne Bobin Posts: 4488

    And we haven't even touched on the subject of laws passed in REPUBLICAN states designed to prevent legitimate voters from getting to vote period - requiring ID, cutting short early voting, telling people that election day is November 8th:

    "The general election is Nov. 6, but Spanish-speakers in Maricopa County, Ariz., are being told otherwise, with now two documents from the county's elections department stating the date -- in Spanish -- as Nov. 8.

    They are direct translations of English-language documents, except for the date -- which in both cases is listed correctly in English, but not in Spanish."

    Bottom line: Shame on Republican sneakyness.

    And we haven't even come to the topic of the right-wing group "True the Vote" which openly practices VOTER INTIMIDATION under the guise of "monitoring" the polls on election day.

     
  • Joanne Bobin posted at 11:17 am on Sun, Oct 28, 2012.

    Joanne Bobin Posts: 4488

    The Republican National Committee - when hiring this crooked company, actually asked them to CHANGE THEIR NAME because they had PREVIOUSLY been CHARGED WITH VOTER REGISTRATION FRAUD under their old name!

    HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! "PAID MORE THAN $3,000,000 - and you are worried about $800,000 allegedly paid "by Obama?" - actually his CAMPAIGN during the primary.

    One girl was caught on tape saying she couldn't register voters unless they were going to vote for Willard Mitt Romney.

    http://www.coloradopols.com/diary/18543/voter-registration-fraud-caught-on-camera-el-paso-county

    More:

    "Election officials in six Florida counties are investigating what appears to be "hundreds” of cases of suspected voter fraud by a GOP consulting firm that has been paid nearly $3 million by the Republican National Committee to register Republican voters in five key battleground states, state officials tell NBC. "

    The allegations of suspected voter fraud committed by Strategic Allied Consulting of Tempe, Arizona spread Thursday to counties throughout Florida. At the same time, the Republican National Committee said it had severed its ties to the firm altogether.

    "We have heard from supervisors in six counties that they have irregularities in voter registration," said Chris Cate, spokesman for the Florida Department of State, which oversees the state's division of elections. Although local prosecutors are already investigating the firm's conduct, Cate said state officials were also considering turning the matter over to the Florida Department of Law Enforcement to determine if there was a pattern of misconduct.

    The suspected fraud included apparent cases of dead people being registered as Republican voters, said Paul Lux, the supervisor of elections in Okaloosa County and a Republican. He compared the suspected fraud to the alleged acts of ACORN, the liberal activist group that became the center of a national controversy several years ago.

    "It's kind of ironic that the dead people they accused Acorn of registering are now being done by the RPOF" [Republican Party of Florida], Lux said in an interview with NBC News."

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 11:13 am on Sun, Oct 28, 2012.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1459

    MR Kinderman hit the nail on the head when he stated below "The only thing that separates a dead “fetus” and a live “human being” is one breath of fresh air!." As long as the discussion remains confused and emotionalized with using the term "babies" instead of fetus no serious discusion can be held about abortion. Because ultimatly you have to discuss the definition of life. Alot was made over Karen Shiho who was brain dead and on expensive machines to keep her "alive", ie., keep the heart beating, but there was no LIFE. The husband had agreed with the doctors that everything had been tried and her condition was not going to reverse and by all definition she was "living dead". Its a form of animism, which like idol worship, we tend to ascribe human traits to inanimate objects. Like refering to a ship as a she. Karen Shivo had been alive but once the brain is gone, the personality is gone. However open eyes, nervous ticks, all lend to the notion that something was alive. It is a very limited definition of life. Even enhancing that definition many would seek euthanasia.

    It has only been in recent times that infant mortality has not been an everyday occurance in huge numbers from natural causes. Still borns, premies, and breached babies obviously never had much of a chance not tall hat long ago. Sanitation made a great difference.

    What exists in the womb is potential. The potential for life. If it makes it it can become a life. When does it become life? When it has its first thoughts from experiences and has a sense of self. Like Karen Shivo a beating heart does not constitute life. You can say she is alive as a technicality but there is no life. So as MR Kinderman alluded to above there can be no life before the first breath. There are no thoughts, no self identification and no memories. What could it possibly be thinking. After it is born the first breath and exposure to air below 98.6 degrees and its first cry begins the establishment of self awareness. Before that we may engage in wishful thinking and emotionalism or practice animism to something thats akin to an appendix before birth. So if we can avoid the emotionalism we can discuss what we really need to talk about to come to terms on this issue.

     
  • Joanne Bobin posted at 11:06 am on Sun, Oct 28, 2012.

    Joanne Bobin Posts: 4488

    Mr. Baumbach wrote: "They are new voter registration applications turned in by the community organizing group, ACORN,"

    Well, I guess your "buddies" in the Republican Party just couldn't get enough of the ACORN scandal since this year they hired their own version of ACORN.

    "Colin Small, working for the Republican Party of Virginia was arrested by the Rockingham County, Va., Sheriff’s Office on Thursday and charged with attempting to destroy voter registration forms by tossing them into a dumpster behind a shopping center in Harrisonburg, Va."

    "But there is more to the story, as evidence emerges to document that it ties into a still-expanding NATIONWIDE GOP VOTER REGISTRATION Fraud Scandal that the BRAD BLOG first began reporting in late September, after we’d learned that the Republican Party of Florida had turned in more than 100 allegedly fraudulent and otherwise suspect voter registration forms in Palm Beach County. The story has continued to widen ever since, to a dozen Florida counties and several other states, now including Virginia, and even to the upper-echelons of the Republican Party itself."

     
  • Josh Morgan posted at 11:06 am on Sun, Oct 28, 2012.

    Josh Morgan Posts: 532

    As a conservative Republican I an adamantly pro choice and most of my Republican friends are as well. Our party needs to get off this subject.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 10:19 am on Sun, Oct 28, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Mr Lucas wants to divert attention away from Obama and all the jobs he has sent overseas by bringing up one tiny investment of Bain Capital ( Freeport’s Sensata Technologies) since Romney was the leader years ago of Bain...

    Clearly, Obama has shipped more jobs overseas that any other American...

    Obama jobs Tzar &General Electric CEO Jeffrey Immelt heads the President's jobs Council

    GE has has been racking up big profits overseas, thanks to over 25,000 jobs he sent to China and other overseas locations.


    Thanks to President Obama, taxpayer money, mostly in the form of stimulus funds, ended up in the hands of companies overseas. Instead of creating jobs in America, the stimulus and other Obama policies created jobs or sent money to Finland, New Zealand, Indonesia, India, Mexico, Germany, Australia, Switzerland, China, Denmark, South Korea, the Dominican Republic, Thailand, Vietnam, Italy, Russia, Luxembourg, El Salvador, Great Britain, Spain, Japan, and France

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 9:13 am on Sun, Oct 28, 2012.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2830

    John,

    It's interesting you bring up the term pseudo-Conservative. Pseudo is is used to mark something as false, fraudulent, or pretending to be something it is not. Well, if they aren't Conservative they are more likely to be Liberal. So, I agree with you there is a complete lack of honor and character. But, I can't think of any Conservatives here who
    aren't dyed in the wool Conservatives. You must be speaking of dyed in the wool Liberals.

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 9:00 am on Sun, Oct 28, 2012.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2830

    Let's face it - President Obama had associations with ACORN and we're not entirley sure he doesn't now - but this does not matter to Bobin and Co.in this forum because they have endlessly denied he participated in any sort of illegal activities with that organization?

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 7:30 am on Sun, Oct 28, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-501445_162-4521003.html

    for discloser, the linkfor the last two posts...

    Ms Bobin wants to pretend that Obama, a professional community organizer, who gave $800,000 to ACORN, a community organizing organization that only registerd votes for democrats nationwide, is not connected. During the campaign, Obama gave a speech at an ACORN rally in which he stated tha ACORN would have a big influence in his administration if elected. Thank goodness Breitbart exposed Obama's corruption.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 7:22 am on Sun, Oct 28, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Continued to refute Ms. Bobin’s claim

    As if that weren't bad enough, Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama's campaign gave $800,000 to ACORN to help with voter registration, according to WiredPRNEws:

    GRIFFIN: So roughly half of them are bad.

    HOAGLAND: Correct.

    GRIFFIN: Registered to a dead person, registered as a person who lives at a fast-food shop.

    HOAGLAND: Yes.

    GRIFFIN: Or just all of them amazingly in the same hand.

    HOAGLAND: Yes. Yes. All the signatures look exactly the same. Everything on the card filled out looks just the same.

    GRIFFIN: Ruth Ann. Fraud?

    HOAGLAND: We have no idea what the motive behind it is. It's just overwhelming to us.

    GRIFFIN: It's not that some are bad. Once they started going through them, every one they looked at was bad.


     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 7:20 am on Sun, Oct 28, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Ms Bobin stated … Let's face it - President Obama was no longer associated with ACORN - but did/does that matter to you and your buddies in this forum who have endlessly accused him of participating in some sort of illegal activities with that organization?

    Buddies in this forum? Ok, How about liberal news organizations…let’s take CBS
    By CBSNews / US News/ February 11, 2009, 2:11 PM

    Drew Griffin of CNN's Special Investigations Unit is digging into this for us. You'll be pretty surprised by what he found.

    DREW GRIFFIN: There are 5,000 of them.

    GRIFFIN: These.

    HOAGLAND: These.

    GRIFFIN: Those?

    HOAGLAND: And these.

    GRIFFIN: They are new voter registration applications turned in by the community organizing group, ACORN, which has launched a massive voter registration drive, and with 5,000 applications in this one county dumped just before the October 6 deadline; it looked to Elections Board Administrator Ruth Ann Hoagland like ACORN was extremely successful, until her workers began finding problems.

    GRIFFIN: A lot of them?

    HOAGLAND: 50 percent. We had close to 5,000 total from ACORN, and so far we have identified about 2,100.

     
  • Jerome Kinderman posted at 11:49 pm on Sat, Oct 27, 2012.

    Jerome R Kinderman Posts: 2352

    “The Bible says nothing about abortion?” It certainly does: “Thou shall not kill.” (Exodus 20:13) Of course if you don’t believe in such things, Mr. Lucas, then you’re on solid ground. But I do, and that means that abortion IS my business. But thanks for the offer to absolve me of all responsibility. I choose not to be forgiven.

    Have you ever seen the aftermath of an abortion, Mr. Lucas? Tiny human legs, arms, fingers, toes and other baby body parts. I remember each time one of my babies was born - we actually stopped to count each finger and toe to make sure none were missing. I think it would be a grand exercise to have women who choose to abort their babies conduct that same body part count just to make sure nothing was left behind! Remember – we men have no standing here; we can pace in the waiting room like in days of yore.

    Too gruesome for you, Mr. Lucas; too gross? Too un-PC? Too bad! If women want the right to abort unborn human beings, then they should be held responsible for disposing of them afterward. What a wonderful world we live in! The only thing that separates a dead “fetus” and a live “human being” is one breath of fresh air! Talk about a house of horrors we’ve built right here in these United States of America. And to think each year people actually celebrate Roe v. Wade. And I’d wager all that I have that most of those doing the celebrating are Democrats.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 8:26 pm on Sat, Oct 27, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Winning? What is winning to you Mr Lucas? I do not know what you mean by that..

    In my view, winning is not possible and is not part of my thinking.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 7:34 pm on Sat, Oct 27, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Right. How much you think he will make on this deal that is going on now in Freeport shipping those jobs to China? He has had an interest in Bain now and then. He makes money on every Bain deal.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 7:24 pm on Sat, Oct 27, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Joanne It is interesting that the pseudo-Conservatives of today even talk about honor and character. It is their complete lack of honor and character that is probably the biggest problem we have politically in this country. Winning is all they care about.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 6:38 pm on Sat, Oct 27, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    When they invent a 100% method of birth control you may have a case. A women, an individual, has the right to way when and how her body(notice HER BODY) is used for reproduction. It is none of your business, Jerome. The bible says nothing about abortion.Jesus said nothing abortion. Pseudo-Conservatives such as yourself really ought to just mind your own business or better yet show your concern for children by not being against any program that helps children who are out of the womb. You are such hypocrites. That goes for Darrell and Brian also.

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 4:00 pm on Sat, Oct 27, 2012.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2830


    http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%20America/Abortion%20is%20Murder/blood_profits.htm

    Since a child in the womb has been ruled “non-human” by the Godless and wicked Supreme Court in 1973, that child can be treated inhumanely, including being tortured for as long as desired by some lunatic madman in a lab-coat.

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 3:51 pm on Sat, Oct 27, 2012.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2830

    Premature babies 'feel true pain'
    Premature babies experience feelings of pain rather than simply displaying reflex reactions, a study says.
    Experts have never been sure how a premature baby responds to pain, the Journal of Neuroscience reported.

    But a team from University College London found that they do feel pain after analyzing brain scans taken when blood samples were being drawn.

    They hope the findings will lead to more formal plans for managing pain in premature babies.

    Lead researcher Professor Maria Fitzgerald said: "We have shown for the first time that the information about pain reaches the brain in premature babies.

    "Beforehand, although we could assume it, we did not know for sure that these babies could feel pain.

    "These babies' brains are so immature that it was difficult to genuinely know that the pain was going to their brain."

    Previous research had shown that premature babies are capable of displaying behavioral, physiological and metabolic signs of pain and distress.

    However, the measures were all indirect and could be dismissed as bodily reflex reactions, rather than measures of true pain experience.

    Researchers conducted brain scans on 18 babies in the neonatal unit at the Elizabeth Garrett Anderson and Obstetric Hospital in central London.



     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 3:49 pm on Sat, Oct 27, 2012.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2830

    http://www.bibleprobe.com/abortion.htm

    Beware!

    Some pictures below could make some people sick!
    Abortion - Let Us Reason
    (So many Americans are waiting to adopt them)
    don't snuff out their tiny lives...they want to live

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 2:55 pm on Sat, Oct 27, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Alex, I do have a problem with "force" as well. If my daughter went in for an abortion, I would not want her forced. On the other hand, I know when my wife and I went through the process of abortion years ago, we were not thinking anything other than a blob of tissue was being removed. Had I perceived it was an unborn baby, I would not have paid money to abort but would have encouraged my wife to have the baby.

    When Mr Kinderman stated below, " I doubt that any woman fails to realize that the unborn baby they’re carrying is a “living, moving human baby.” Im sure that is true for most, but it was not the case in my sistuation with my wife back then...Maybe we were just beyond stupid as younger adults, but we did not perceive it a baby.

     
  • Joanne Bobin posted at 2:39 pm on Sat, Oct 27, 2012.

    Joanne Bobin Posts: 4488

    Mr. Baumbach wrote: "The left wing part of our country is bankrupt of honor."

    Mr. Docktor wrote: "I once heard Sen John Kerry had a vested interest in the Billion dollar aborted babie parts market."

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

     
  • Joanne Bobin posted at 2:36 pm on Sat, Oct 27, 2012.

    Joanne Bobin Posts: 4488

    Willard Mitt Romney was the CEO - the officer who signed all documents required by the Feds until 2002.

    Now he wants to terminate that relationship retroactively.

    If the roles were reversed, believe me, Mr. Baumbach, you would be mocking that to no end.

    Let's face it - President Obama was no longer associated with ACORN - but did/does that matter to you and your buddies in this forum who have endlessly accused him of participating in some sort of illegal activities with that organization?

    Give me a break - YOU should be ashamed for distorting reality for political gains.

     
  • Joanne Bobin posted at 2:32 pm on Sat, Oct 27, 2012.

    Joanne Bobin Posts: 4488

    Mr. Baumbach - if an adolescent, teenager, or woman has already made the decision to have an abortion and she is on the operating table, why are we forcing her to see the fetus?

    It is only an attempt to try to change her decision at the last minute - to shame her into thinking she is making a mistake.

    I have nothing politically to gain - so that is a lie. And no, I am not ashamed, nor am I distorting reality.

    Rapists are all about control, not sex. Violating a woman with either an external ultrasound, and worse, with a transvaginal ultrasound is a desire for the same control.

     
  • Alex Kennedy posted at 1:58 pm on Sat, Oct 27, 2012.

    Alex Posts: 215

    Why not just offer the woman a sonogram? If she wants it, fine. If not, fine. Why is it any of our business what she sees? And, why are we trying to force a fairly large wand into her vagina? Is that American?

     
  • Jerome Kinderman posted at 1:33 pm on Sat, Oct 27, 2012.

    Jerome R Kinderman Posts: 2352

    Frankly, what women do with their own bodies is not my concern - and never has been. It's the bodies of the unborn children they're carrying that have me worried.

    Ms. Francis wrote: "The purpose of sonograms is to give the pregnant woman an opportunity to see her living, moving human baby and to realize it's not a blob of tissue.”

    Now here I do have a problem. I doubt that any woman fails to realize that the unborn baby they’re carrying is a “living, moving human baby.” I cannot fathom that they would believe otherwise. Therefore, to put the mother of this unborn child through an invasive and wholly unnecessary procedure would indeed violate the woman’s rights regarding her own body.

    You see, it IS the lives of all those defenseless children that would have me reverse Woe v. Wade. Millions lost so far? Regardless of one’s faith, such a travesty cannot be taken lightly. During the Holocaust it was guesstimated that over six million human beings were slaughtered by the Nazis. The only thing that separated those innocent people and those within the bodies of all the women who chose abortion is less than an inch of human tissue – and a law that says it’s okay to kill them.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 1:09 pm on Sat, Oct 27, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    So what kind of deposal services does Stericycle perform?

    This companies non-RCRA , noncontrolled pharmaceutical waste service helps various companies' office safely dispose of:
    Partially used medicines,unused pharmaceutical drug samples, vials, and expired medications...

    In addition,
    Based on this companies internal expert review, hundreds of clinical, peer-reviewed articles have documented the presence of pharmaceuticals or their constituents in drinking water and/or groundwater in the United States and other developed nations

    Their non-RCRA-hazardous drug disposal service allows companies to:
    Demonstrate their commitment to protecting life in communities...
    Be environmentally responsible...
    Address growing public health concerns about pharmaceuticals in our drinking water
    As an environmental leader, you can help protect your waterways, community, and environment from being contaminated with pharmaceuticals.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 1:03 pm on Sat, Oct 27, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    In my view, this constant distortion of reality by liberals is so obvious that I cannot imagine how a thinking person can be liberal...
    For example,


    Stericycle specializes in proper pickup, treatment, and disposal of bio-hazards, such as “red bag” medical waste and sharps containers. This company offers Bio-hazard waste disposal services. This is not an abortion issue in any stretch of the imagination. This company does not encourage or participate in abortions, it only treats the problems caused by people who do support and perform abortions...as well as 100 's of other bio-hazards having nothing to do with abortions.

    The left wing part of our country is bankrupt of honor.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 12:49 pm on Sat, Oct 27, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Mr Lucas stated...1999 the GOP presidential candidate had been part of an investment group that invested $75 million in Stericycle

    In reality, Bain negotiated the Stericyle investment deal in November 1999, nine months after Romney said he left.

    Bain Managing Director Steve Pagliuca, would talk on the record. The others spoke only on condition of anonymity, citing either Bain’s low-key culture or the desire not to anger friends in the Obama campaign.

    Pagliuca, a Democrat who unsuccessfully ran for Senate in 2010, told CNN: “Mitt Romney left Bain Capital in February 1999 to run the Olympics and has had absolutely no involvement with the management or investment activities of the firm or with any of its portfolio companies since the day of his departure.”

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 12:33 pm on Sat, Oct 27, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Olive Francis stated...The purpose of sonograms is to give the pregnant woman an opportunity to see her living, moving human baby and to realize it's not a blob of tissue.

    then Ms Bobin stated....an external sonogram, let alone a transvaginal sonogram, has only one goal - to shame and to add to the agony already being suffered by the pregnant woman

    Ms Bobin, I think you are being absurd for political gains... Olive Francis articulated the intent and goal of compassionate people who believe abortion is killing a baby. You are simply attempting to inflame people's passions. You should be ashamed but no, you are very enthusiastic and proud to distort reality.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 12:26 pm on Sat, Oct 27, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Ms Bobin stated...I am willing to bet that Mr. Baumbach has never had to face a decision about aborting a child, no matter the cirumstances...

    Unfortunately, you would be wrong Ms Bobin. When I was in college, young and ignorant, I encouraged and paid for my wife ( now x wife) to have an abortion for reasons Ill keep private. Decades later, I regret it. If a sonogram would have been available for my wife and I, we would have understood better just what we were doing... After all these years, I still wonder what my child would have been like, what joys and achievements would have been accomplished and what benefits my child would have given to others.

     
  • Joanne Bobin posted at 10:47 am on Sat, Oct 27, 2012.

    Joanne Bobin Posts: 4488

    Mr. Baumbach wrote: "It would seem reasonable if we want to give woman the legal right to kill an unborn baby that at least the woman should be given an opportunity to know just what it is she is killing."

    I am willing to bet that Mr. Baumbach has never had to face a decision about aborting a child, no matter the cirumstances. Has never known anyone who has faced this decision and has never known anyone who has made this decision.

    Forcing a woman to have an external sonogram, let alone a transvaginal sonogram, has only one goal - to shame and to add to the agony already being suffered by the pregnant woman.

    There are 32,000 pregnancies each year that are the result of rape. 31 states in THIS COUNTRY allow rapists PARENTAL RIGHTS - What does that mean?

    Horrifyingly, a rapist can petition for custody and/or visitation of a child conceived by rape.

    What would you tell YOUR daughter, if you had one, when her rapist comes knocking at the door to pick up HIS child for a nice weekend visit?

     
  • Andy Crowder posted at 10:15 am on Sat, Oct 27, 2012.

    Andy Crowder Posts: 245

    You once heard? From who? Can you substantiate that with a link to a reputable source? Of course you can't.

    Someone so concerned about abortion profiteering ought to know that Romney made millions from a company that disposed of aborted babies, and an award winning Catholic newspaper has documented it.

    http://thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/major-catholic-paper-romney-not-obama-is-the-anti-life-pro-abortion-candidate/news/2012/08/14/46497

     
  • John Lucas posted at 10:09 am on Sat, Oct 27, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    I see we have our pseudo Conservative men telling women what to do with own bodies.

    Brian said:

    I once heard Sen John Kerry had a vested interest in the Billion dollar aborted babie parts market.

    The pseudo Conservative rumor mill. no facts

    this however is well documented

    1999 the GOP presidential candidate had been part of an investment group that invested $75 million in Stericycle, a medical-waste disposal firm that has been attacked by anti-abortion groups for disposing aborted fetuses collected from family planning clinics

    use google keywords:

    fetus disposal Romney

    Hypocrites

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 9:21 am on Sat, Oct 27, 2012.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2830

    I once heard Sen John Kerry had a vested interest in the Billion dollar aborted babie parts market.

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 9:18 am on Sat, Oct 27, 2012.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2830

    Since the inception of Roe V Wade millions of unborn BABIES have been slaughtered.
    This mindset that unborn BABIES are expendable is outright nonsense. Adoption organizations are struggling to find babies for adoption in America. Lately, those seeking to adopt are having to venture to other countries. This is quite expensive.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 7:25 am on Sat, Oct 27, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Olive Francis stated...The purpose of sonograms is to give the pregnant woman an opportunity to see her living, moving human baby and to realize it's not a blob of tissue.

    She also quoted Mr. Lucas: "There are several states with Republican majority mandating 'invasive ultrasounds before having an abortion for women who have been raped or victims of incest.

    Interesting that Mr Lucas and his sister Cynthia Neely, who wrote an article titled, “ Republican-Style Sharia Law denies Woman Basic Rights, interprets this sonogram that has an intent to give opportunity to view what is being aborted as no better than raping a woman.

    It would seem reasonable if we want to give woman the legal right to kill an unborn baby that at least the woman should be given an opportunity to know just what it is she is killing.

    Ms. Francis made a convincing argument for revisiting Roe vs. Wade

     

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