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Letter: Unity, productivity will improve the economy

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Posted: Thursday, January 16, 2014 12:00 am

Another letter has been submitted that claims again that the very people who pay the majority of taxes are somehow not paying their fair share. The mistake is in combining all taxes as if they are equal in nature.

For example, it compares Social Security contributions to federal income taxes. Anyone who pays into Social Security will at retirement have all contributions returned in the form of retirement, whereas federal income taxes are used to pay ongoing immediate expenses the government obligates itself to pay. No person should consider a retirement contribution an equivalent to federal income tax.

When attempting to determine if one segment of our society is paying their fair share, each tax must be examined on its own merit. Claiming all taxes have equivalency and then stating certain people do not pay their fair share based on that assumption is incorrect.

This country is going through trials and tribulations and needs the constructive participation of all citizens. We all should be thankful and appreciative that the people who are driven to succeed do now pay the vast majority of taxes that funds the needed social programs that are available to people who truly need them. Instead of promoting division, we should unify our country and encourage productivity for everyone’s best interests.

Darrell Baumbach


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Welcome to the discussion.


  • Joanne Bobin posted at 4:37 pm on Wed, Jan 22, 2014.

    Joanne Bobin Posts: 4488

    Mr. Liebich wrote: "First, I'm not helplessly stuck in the false left/right paradigm like most here. I understand ALL mainstream media lies."

    Since you are not "left or right," Mr. Liebich, WHAT exactly are you? From what you have written in this forum for the past few years, it appears that you are ANTI the American government, Anti-everything that happens in the government, and you also claim to to pro the Constitution, yet you want the Constitution to be the ORIGINAL version, not the living document that the founding fathers intended.

    You are WAY out of date. I'm just surprised that you have not found a country that is more your cup of tea. We, here, who live in the real world, would be grateful if you did.

  • Jack Gilder posted at 3:33 pm on Wed, Jan 22, 2014.

    Jack Gilder Posts: 26

    I read through the Politifact links on that page and they are pointing to inaccuracies and not "lies." For example, they tend to conclude thusly:

    "To be clear, we're not checking Maddow's broader point that Bush played favorites with the press. Is there any president who hasn't? Rather, we're checking Maddow's statement that President Bush "never did one interview with the New York Times during his entire presidency." That's not the case, so we rate her statement False."

    Lying is really a different creature; that's when you distort or fabricate information to deliberately mislead the public. Multiple studies have found that Fox News is consistent in this practice and the fact that management hands down "talking points" to the infotainment talent is well-known and well documented. If you want to see the evidence for this it is compiled in this article:


    The other links on your page were either dead or just based on the author's opinion. I trust Politifact so I limited my comments to that. The article I linked to (above) is about credible University studies that have looked into the media coverage of news and controversial issues. It paints a well substantiated perspective on the difference between the lies Fox News delivers with clear intentions and the inaccuracies of details you find on networks like MSNBC.

  • Andrew Liebich posted at 10:17 am on Wed, Jan 22, 2014.

    Andrew Liebich Posts: 2999

    First, I'm not helplessly stuck in the false left/right paradigm like most here. I understand ALL mainstream media lies. A fact some who frequent this forum haven't quite figured out yet. My intention was to demonstrate the absurdity of Mr. Lucas's "they are not liars" (MSNBC) claim.

    I suggest you read the entire transcript of the January 18, 2009 Dylan Ratigan show you falsely claim was "heavily edited." You will clearly see the YouTube link I provided did not "intentionally mislead" anyone. MSNBC did.


    Next, the YouTube links I provided were provided because ALL of them go directly to OUR YouTube video which again, clearly demonstrates MSNBC deliberately lies. By the way, ALL of the YouTube links work just fine. I'm guessing that perhaps you didn't realize to leave out the '...' at the end of each?

    Lastly, I do apologize for the fact that the Politifact links as provided didn't work. I should have simply provided a link to where I originally found them. Please note the 'Pants on Fire' status of each.


  • Jack Gilder posted at 11:11 pm on Tue, Jan 21, 2014.

    Jack Gilder Posts: 26

    Andrew... I was only able to get one of your links and it was a YouTube piece that was a heavily edited segment from MSNBC that made it appear the news presenter was referring to the black man with the gun (shown) as being an example of part of the "armed white racists," but if you saw the whole segment there were many more images that she was referring to. The YouTube piece is intentionally misleading and wants viewers to think she was referring to the one individual. This is similar to the way Fox News distorts stories, so really all you've done is provided an example of someone lying the way Fox News does... and about a dozen dead links. Good work.

  • John Kindseth posted at 8:53 pm on Mon, Jan 20, 2014.

    John Kindseth Posts: 246

    Anyone who believes that their news source speaks only the truth and the sources they do not like speak only wrong, is deluded, or in the words in Kindergarten Cop "Maybe you have a tumor?"

  • Andrew Liebich posted at 6:40 pm on Sat, Jan 18, 2014.

    Andrew Liebich Posts: 2999

    Rachel Maddow and others at MSNBC are not liars?
    Seriously Mr. Lucas? You are too funny! ROFLMAO[lol]


    http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...es-interviews/ "President Bush never did one interview with the New York Times during his entire presidency."[sleeping]

    http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...problem-inher/ With his decision on whether to fire Gen. Stanley McChrystal, President Obama "has to fix yet another problem he inherited from the Bush administration."[sleeping]

    "Louisiana Sen. Mary Landrieu received almost $1.8 million from BP over the last decade."[sleeping]

    "Despite what you may have heard about Wisconsin’s finances, Wisconsin is on track to have a budget surplus this year."[sleeping]

    MSNBC Lies about gun in crowd - YouTube
    http://www.youtube.com/watch ...

    MSNBC Lies to Promote Racial Tension - YouTube
    http://www.youtube.com/watch ...

    MSNBC Lies About Ron Paul RTR.Org - YouTube
    http://www.youtube.com/watch ...

    Robert Reich lies on MSNBC - YouTube
    http://www.youtube.com/watch ...

    MSNBC's Larry O'Donnell lies about Cheney ...
    http://www.youtube.com/watch ...

    Joe Scarborough MSNBC lies about President Obama go ...
    http://www.youtube.com/watch ...

  • John Lucas posted at 12:43 am on Sat, Jan 18, 2014.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Sorry, Ed, but Fox News is just a propaganda machine for the far right in this country. That would be fine by me if they did not out and out lie about factual matters that can be proved. Hannity is the worst of the bunch. You may not like the opinions of Rachel Maddow and others at MSNBC in the evenings but they are not liars.

    The reason studies have shown that Fox News viewer are less well informed than people who do not watch anything is that they are constantly lied to. Fox News is not bad because it represents a right wing point of view, it is bad because it cannot get its facts straight.

  • Ed Walters posted at 1:16 pm on Fri, Jan 17, 2014.

    the old dog Posts: 638

    Lucas: Concerning "tripe" , how can you be so sure that the amount of people watching Fox news are not divided by as many Demos as Republicans that watch the lastest news. If you have ever watched Hannady, many times the audience is made up of Demos and Republican, with a different point of view, fair? I would say so. Two subjects it seems you cannot get off your mind, Fox news and President Reagan. In order to get your news from a cable news network, other than Fox, what would be your choice? CNN or MSMBC ???

  • Joanne Bobin posted at 12:06 pm on Fri, Jan 17, 2014.

    Joanne Bobin Posts: 4488

    Mr. Baumbach wrote: "Instead of promoting division, we should unify our country and encourage productivity for everyone’s best interests."

    Perhaps Mr. Baumbach would benefit greatly from reading the new biography of FOX News leader, Roger Ailes. I think the title says it all.

    “The Loudest Voice in the Room: How the Brilliant, Bombastic Roger Ailes Built Fox News and Divided a Country,”

    Here's what all but the gullible FOX News devotees have known for years:

    "Ailes has amassed more power, the true nature of the organization he was building has come into clearer view and it's become harder and harder for the network to maintain the fiction of "fair and balanced."

  • Ted Lauchland posted at 11:12 am on Fri, Jan 17, 2014.

    Ted Lauchland Posts: 261

    Tell you what ,

    Why don't we just scrap the whole thing and have the government run on strictly donations.

    I do believe however, the issues would still be the same.

    Agreed - Good word Darrell.

  • Ted Lauchland posted at 10:43 am on Fri, Jan 17, 2014.

    Ted Lauchland Posts: 261

    All this talk of unfairness is mostly hot air until it is proven to be true or false . I ask that someone please prove the unfairness of the tax codes.

  • Christina Welch posted at 9:01 am on Fri, Jan 17, 2014.

    Christina Welch Posts: 460

    There is some logic to Darrell’s point about social security taxes—it is a retirement account, so to speak, that you will draw from once you hit 65. But, as far as data is reported and the fact that it is not a voluntary deduction like an IRA or Roth would be, it should be seen as a tax. And, once you hit the cap of about $100,000 in income, it begins to become regressive. Payroll taxes (along with sales taxes, gas taxes and such) are all regressive, and they are primarily the reason why the tax burden (in terms of ratio to income) in the U.S. falls more heavily on the middle class and poor. Income taxes are progressive, so the tax burden here clearly falls more heavily on the wealthy in that regard, unless your “income” is from capital gains, where you only pay 15%, but the issue at hand here is the burden of all taxes on all people.

    Darrell also makes a point that each tax should be studied on its own merit, but an overall view of taxes in general is also useful. It is very difficult to find data to study the claim that the rich pay a lot less in all taxes by percentage of income; most studies do indeed break down the analysis by individual tax. I haven’t found a single study that looks at all the taxes paid in America, both on the consumer side (sales, gas, excise, property, vehicle registration, etc) and the producer side (payroll taxes for employees, unemployment compensation, business/contractor licenses, environmental fees, OSHA, etc.) Nor any that include estate and gift taxes. But, I did find a study out of DC that looked at the tax burden beyond just income taxes; it was done for the city’s purposes and was an analysis of the states, but it did provide some national averages.

    Accounting for income, property, sales, and auto taxes the estimated national tax burden for a hypothetical family of 3 in 2011 broken down into 5 income levels was as follows: $25,000: 12.3%; $50,000: 9.9%; $75,000: 9.4%;
    $100,000: 8.7%; $150,000: 8.6%. This info is from Table 1, and the website is: http://www.cfo.dc.gov/page/tax-burdens-comparison
    I realize it is an incomplete picture (it doesn’t account for all taxes nor does it include govt. transfer payments or in-kind benefits that aren’t taxed) of this complicated topic, but it was the best I could do. PLEASE if anyone can find additional statistics that better incorporate all tax liabilities and all sources of revenue in terms of burden on income, share the studies. I would really like to have a more complete picture.
    I also found many articles addressing the issue, and found these to be the most unbiased and useful:



    From what I gather in my research, the super rich really do pay less than the rest of us when more than just income tax is considered, but the statistics weren’t as shocking as I had expected. And, I believe the stats for next year and beyond will reflect the additional taxes that have been placed on the rich since the study was done for 2011. In 2013, the top income tax bracket was raised 4.5% and there is an additional 3.8% tax on long term capital gains through the ACA. Also, estate and gift taxes went up to 55% after a $1,000,000 exemption. All of this should definitely help to even out the tax burden.

  • John Lucas posted at 7:55 am on Fri, Jan 17, 2014.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    This administration has been hamstrung by the insanity of the Conservative wing of the Republican party(You know, people who believe the nonsense you just wrote in your comment). Just because you and your conservative friends watching Fox News believe this tripe it does not make it true nor is it the view of the majority of the American people. There is a growing wave of Americans who are just as patriotic as you who see things differently. The first order of business is to defeat the Fox news crowd at the polls and then get to work fixing the mess Republican economic ideas since Reagan had ravaged the middle class with.

  • Ed Walters posted at 4:59 pm on Thu, Jan 16, 2014.

    the old dog Posts: 638

    Lucas, you suggest the disappearing middle class is going to sit and watch the unfairness of the tax code will destroy their livelihoods, the present admisistration has been doing that for the last 6 years. With Republicans and Demos so far apart on everything under the sun, to unify our country is nothing but a pipe dream fueled by weed, race, rich and poor, most Americans would like to see the same thing. Sad but that isn

  • Kerry Suess posted at 1:13 pm on Thu, Jan 16, 2014.

    The Knight Romer Posts: 13

    Good word Darrell.

  • Ted Lauchland posted at 10:20 am on Thu, Jan 16, 2014.

    Ted Lauchland Posts: 261

    Actually , Mr. Baumbach , they are all equal in nature in that they are all considered "taxes" triggered by the flow of cash and that in turn supports government programs . No flow - no tax and flows sometimes are triggered by law . Inheritance tax is an example. Playing with words - which can be a lawyer game - bring on the idea of what a "fee" is or other tax rule avoidance words. Games.

    The government feels they own all land within it's borders and can tax accordingly. Foreclosing on properties is avoided normally because of their understanding that the individual can do more with the land than the government can. Besides, it costs money to do so but they are certainly first in line when the cash starts flowing.

    What I get irritated by is the complexity of the whole system and the suspicion it creates as in the case of Mr. Lucas' standpoint. Except on Tuesdays.

    The average wage earner does not have the choices of tax itemization. It has been taken from them or simply not required of them to file taxes and they feel there is something untrustworthy about the idea that some people do. It is required by law that those details -for those who have to - are tracked and recorded which is subject to scrutiny . The tax man's scrutiny. All of this is extremely expensive except for the average tax payer that does not have to go through all of this. It's results are still the same - suspicion. They believe that somehow it is not fair. They are correct , it is not fair. Trying to stay ahead of the game is still required though. It just gets more complicated as you move forward with incomes.

    I have broken up fights in the vineyard between people of different races, languages and backgrounds just for the misunderstandings created by the lack of their ability to communicate between themselves. I saw suspicion in both individuals.

    My question to Mr. Lucas would be - what , in his opinion (of course) is a fair share of taxes. It no doubt disagrees with mine. If he pays ten dollars and I pay ten dollars that is fair - right? If he pays ten percent and I pay ten percent that is fair - right? - Ten percent of what ? That is where the complexities start.

    Then I believe a good examination of all taxes and tax codes would be in order. Social Security, sales taxes, personal income taxes, corporate taxes, inventory taxes and on and on and see just who they apply to for what purpose and just how complicated it is just to enforce those taxes upon the people. Except on Tuesday.

    I can repeat that "except on Tuesday" again and again and you might ask why and what does it mean?

    It is the type of complexities in the tax codes that drive me nuts. All I mean is - that is the day I take off (fictitiously). It may not be the day you take off but it is for someone. Confused? - It can't be fair if you are confused. If it was the third Sunday of the fourth month of the most odd years in succession - you might suspect that I am a very mild Christian that doesn't go to church that often. Tax codes don't have to make sense or be fair. It is just an income source for the government influenced by even the guy who sits on the corner with his hand out.

    People who make lots of money are subject to the opinion of others that don't. It is part of the burden of such. It's part of the American dream. All I see is envy by those whose do not get on board with the positive motion that you describe Mr. Baumbach.

    I suppose a thorough examination of all taxes is in order - as usual. A thorough exam of the difference between communism and free enterprise would be helpful also. I never said paying fair share of taxes was communism. Obamacare pushes towards communism. More government controls.

    If the intent of the individual is to work outside the intentions of the law then they would be subject to the consequences of the law. That is what is fair , or attempts to be fair.

  • John Lucas posted at 8:35 am on Thu, Jan 16, 2014.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Gotta love ya, Darrell when you say this:

    Instead of promoting division, we should unify our country and encourage productivity for everyone’s best interests.

    If you think the disappearing middle class is going to sit and watch the unfairness of the tax code destroy their livelihoods I think you should think again.


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