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Patriot’s Corner What is ‘fiscally responsible government’?

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Posted: Monday, March 19, 2012 12:00 am | Updated: 6:17 am, Mon Mar 19, 2012.

In our last installment, we introduced the Tea Party Group of Lodi and defined the group's tenets. This time, let us explore one of those tenets, "fiscally responsible government."

Kim: What is so complicated about fiscally responsible government? All federal, state and local governments need to do is balance their "checkbooks" each month like the rest of us. If my family borrowed 40 cents of every dollar it spent like the federal government does, we would be bankrupted!

Ed: Yes, that would be a very good common-sense approach to the subject. In fact, an extension of that logic would be that when the government has surplus revenues, it would cut taxes. Moreover, the opposite would be true; i.e., increase taxes for increasing deficits to maintain the balance. The problem with this approach is that government behavior would be unpredictable. Taxes on businesses and citizens would be changing constantly based on the state of the economy and government spending.

Kim: So, we are stuck with the present mess?

Ed: Well, no. Interestingly, some economists argue that some indebtedness is healthy and is a good barometer of the country's economic health. What they mean is, limited indebtedness provides stability and predictability in the tax rate and is a "growth-friendly policy." The ratio or comparison between the government debt and size of the economy (Gross Domestic Product or GDP) could be used to regulate the government's actions. In other words, if the debt to GDP ratio grows too large, economic growth is too small and government spending and taxing are likely stifling its growth, requiring corrective action. Alternately, if the debt to GDP ratio is too low, then government has a green light to spend and tax appropriately. Problem is that most career politicians follow their own self-interest and ideology, not what would contribute to the country's well being.

Kim: Besides corruption, what political spending patterns are fiscally irresponsible?

Ed: The greatest offenders are entitlements where someone, an individual or organization, becomes dependent and feels "entitled" to some government benefit. This includes social programs like Social Security but also any policies that are "crony-capitalism" or "crony-unionism" in nature. Social programs tend to be launched on a ballistic path of growth and eventually exceed the ability of taxpayers to pay for them. Crony-capitalism and crony-unionism is when businesses and unions are dependent on a close relationship with the government at all levels. Their success is not dependent on the free market or the rule of law but rather government favoritism in the form of mandating laws, tax breaks, grants, etc. In reality, crony-capitalism/unionism is a quasi-legal money-laundering system. The politicians provide the favorable rules and funding, the business/union provides political contributions, the politicians are re-elected, and the cycle repeats.

Kim: So that is how we get uncompetitive businesses and poor products forced on us like Solyndra and have to pay for over-priced public-sector union benefits.

Ed: Yes, the Lodi City Council, in a March 2012 "shirtsleeve" meeting, had to deal with one of the many public-sector union benefits, the unfunded liability of City employees converting untaken sick leave into retirement benefits. The present unfunded liability for the City is an impressive $17 million. For Stockton, it is a staggering $540 million. Fortunately, Lodi capped (prohibited for new hires) this benefit in 1994/95 and is paying the remaining liability down over time. Stockton has not capped theirs and their problem continues to grow.

Kim: How do regulations and mandates figure into this?

Ed: Regulations are the "hidden" taxes in the economy and bureaucrats, not elected politicians, set most regulations. The hidden tax cost of regulations is estimated to be $1.7 trillion per year and has a stifling effect on economic growth. California has the unenviable title of the state with the high level of regulation in the union — and we wonder why our unemployment is so high... Mandates, especially "unfunded" mandates, are problematic. These mandates are not funded by the level of government creating them — that problem is left to the victims, usually local government and businesses. Most of the City of Lodi's capital indebtedness is due to regulations and unfunded mandates.

Find out more by attending the Lodi Tea Party general meeting Monday, March 26 at 6:30 p.m. in the United Congregational Christian Church, 701 S Hutchins St., Lodi.

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Welcome to the discussion.

78 comments:

  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 8:56 pm on Thu, Mar 29, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Ms bobin stated... What I actually stated is...Mr. Baumbach reminds me of a recent commercial for Comcast - the character has just gotten unlimited telephone service from Comcast and he is telling the person on the other end of the line..."I'm just like a middle-school girl....Blah, blah, blah, talk, talk talk, a whole lot about nothin'"

    Of course Ms bobin... you were being so absurd and child like I decided to respond with absurd comedy. I thought I could send it to your favorite News organization
    ( the Stewart Comedy Show) to see if they agreed with the comic intent... I guess it went right over your head.. lighten up Ms Bobin.. its only comedy... smile... its funny right. I know Tina Fey would think so.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 8:50 pm on Thu, Mar 29, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Darrell stated... I am against any man hitting a woman or any woman hitting a man,.I also stated I oppose verbal abuse where any person attempts to control the behavior of another by yelling and/or screaming at another person. Abuse is not OK under any circumstance. If someone hurts someone else when they are defending themselves, that is not abuse.

    As a response to what I stated, K Lee responded...

    How about if they said someone here should be "B**** slapped" and worse? That's okay with you though, right?

    From what planet does K Lee originate that she would draw her conclusion since I have stated the above. Maybe if we classified on line distortion of truth as an abuse, K Lee would easily be convicted.

     
  • Patrick W Maple posted at 10:03 am on Thu, Mar 29, 2012.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1805

    mskl: You might read the words but when your refuse to hear the meanings...you are an idiot...when you refuse to see an opposing position...you are acting stupid...when you make an intelligent observation...you may have listened. We all do stupid things (mostly accidents), take idiotic positions and at time seem intelligent.

    Intelligence...like histroy...needs a little history under its belt before the truth can be spoken or found...or: time will tell.

    Using the lower case lettering to refer to someone is meant to show superiority and displeasure for the use of a slur or comment towards another...by you.

    One doesn't have to look for the bad from you and your pals, as you throw it in our faces daily. That would depend on your definition of bad.

    "If you look only for the bad in a person you will always find it." That includes the self mskl. Attack the issues not the people.

     
  • Joanne Bobin posted at 9:26 am on Thu, Mar 29, 2012.

    Joanne Bobin Posts: 4488

    Mr. Baumbach wrote:

    "Joanne Bobin posted at 8:58 am on Sat, Mar 24, 2012....I'm just like a middle-school girl....Blah, blah, blah, talk, talk talk, a whole lot about nothin'"

    Who am I to argue with Ms Bobin's assessment of herself.... I think she hit the nail... no the spike square in the head on this one. When Ms Bobin gets it right."

    Here we go again - Mr. Baumbach with his "I'm rubber, your glue" refrain.

    What I wrote was:

    Mr. Baumbach reminds me of a recent commercial for Comcast - the character has just gotten unlimited telephone service from Comcast and he is telling the person on the other end of the line..."I'm just like a middle-school girl....Blah, blah, blah, talk, talk talk, a whole lot about nothin'"

    Actually - he says "I'm like a 12 year-old girl..." more apropos to Mr. Baumbach.

    Grow up, Mr. Baumbach.

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 9:20 am on Thu, Mar 29, 2012.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2857


    I cannot confirm K Lee is a manipulator. But based on her writings, one could speculate.

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 9:09 am on Thu, Mar 29, 2012.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2857

    Darrell,

    Regarding your post at 11:53PM.
    You are aware if K Lee acknowledges you do take her side many times she would have to admit Conservatives really aren't as bad as Liberals make them out to be?
    She would also have to forgo her agenda to demonize Conservatives.

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 9:02 am on Thu, Mar 29, 2012.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2857

    K Lee,

    I hope for you and your friends sake you are nothing like you make yourself out to be,
    on these bloggs, in real life.

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 8:57 am on Thu, Mar 29, 2012.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2857

    K Lee wrote:

    "I cannot remember one time Darrell Baumbach making a negative remark in reference to Brian, Pat, Jerome or anyone else who expresses right wing positions no matter how ugly they are. Makes Darrell Baumbach look very insincere."

    I think you would take issue with that, Darrell.

    -You're right K Lee,

    He would take issue because he has taken many us Conservatives to task. But it is your opinion many positions Conservatives take are ugly. I would never say
    many positions Liberals take are ugly.

    Where's the Love and Kindness K Lee? Now you just run along and tell all your Liberal friends you're not sure Brian is really sincere when he apologized over TWO years ago for saying Lodian should be slapped.

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 8:44 am on Thu, Mar 29, 2012.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2857

    K Lee,

    I would never suggest only people from the left wing digress. Unlike you, I fall short of the grace of God, meaning, I am a sinner like just about every Human. You project yourself as if you are unique, meaning, you rarely digresss, if at all. I'd be more than happy to hold you to a higher standard if you actually are what you continuously project.
    But Heaven forbid I deny you your right to be pompus.

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 8:32 am on Thu, Mar 29, 2012.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2857

    K Lee wrote:

    One doesn't have to look for the bad from you and your pals, as you throw it in our faces daily.

    -Chuckle,

    Pot, Kettle, Black.

     
  • Kim Lee posted at 12:39 am on Thu, Mar 29, 2012.

    Kim Lee Posts: 1798

    Patty Maple wrote, "...for instance calling a wheelchair bound person dumb because they are wheelchair bound is simply stupid. I sometimes put you into that category. I sometimes put you into that category. Not always...but sometimes...like Sandra Fluke...plain stupid..."

    So, Patty, why address me at all since you think I am stupid? You also called me an idiot, but in the past have called me intelligent. Which is it, Patty? Can't make up your mind? LOL!

     
  • Kim Lee posted at 12:33 am on Thu, Mar 29, 2012.

    Kim Lee Posts: 1798

    Patty Maple wrote, "If you look only for the bad in a person you will always find it."

    One doesn't have to look for the bad from you and your pals, as you throw it in our faces daily.

     
  • Kim Lee posted at 12:28 am on Thu, Mar 29, 2012.

    Kim Lee Posts: 1798

    Darrell wrote, "if any of the people you memtioned ever say they see bigots around every corner in Lodi, or that the entire Catholic church is evil at it's core, I will take them to task as well."

    How about if they said someone here should be "B**** slapped" and worse? That's okay with you though, right?

     
  • Patrick W Maple posted at 8:21 am on Wed, Mar 28, 2012.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1805

    I would also like to point out that no matter the way a word is put together it doesn't mttaer our minds with automatically put the letters in their proper order...except for Democrats (just kidding). I misspell words wut the meaning is stil there. Much like the Obcare...more FREOM me mor to THEEE. Smart people can always figure it out.

     
  • Patrick W Maple posted at 8:39 am on Tue, Mar 27, 2012.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1805

    Truth mskl...you can't take the truth.

     
  • Patrick W Maple posted at 8:38 am on Tue, Mar 27, 2012.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1805

    mskl: Let me take you to task...the purposful misuse of another person's name is a very demeaning and disrespectful...nearly hateful commnet. Using the lower case lettering to refer to someone is meant to show superiority and displeasure for the use of a slur or comment towards another...by you. If I were to call you an idiot...or a moron...or a stupid uneducated person...that is a referal to your ability to process and use information. Calling someone a sult, whroe, tbgr, btch or any other form of demeaning terms is an attack on possibly something they can do nothing about....for instance calling a wheelchair bound person dumb because they are wheelchair bound is simply stupid. I sometimes put you into that category. Not always...but sometimes...like Sandra Fluke...plain stupid...

    If you look only for the bad in a person you will always find it...balance yourself.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 11:53 pm on Mon, Mar 26, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405


    K Lee... if any of the people you memtioned ever say they see bigots around every corner in Lodi, or that the entire Catholic church is evil at it's core, I will take them to task as well.
    If any of them attack people like your side attacks Sarah Palin, I will take them to task....the picture you selected to represent your image in the pretence of comedy, assissinated the character of Sarah Palin... it was not funny except to people who hated ( and still do) Palin... yet, you proudly use her image. I know, in your mind it was just comedy... ha ha. ... for example, people I respect state Obama is the worst president we ever had and prefers socialist type policies...that is a political statement... if someone said Obama is a murderer ( like many on the left did in describing Bush) I would have a problem with that. If people painted a picture of Obama an air head that cannot think for himself, I would have a problem with that as Obama is an intelligent creative thinker that can articulate his position well...

    So in my view, my side is attacked viciously with hate... your side gets comments like he is the worst president ever... not even close in the hate department.

    If any of them call you personally a racist, I would disagree and support you... However, as long as you completely support people that behave as I described, and you support their positions every time, what is one to think of you?

    I think you are the most civil person here ( lately), and I give you credit for that. However, Mr Kinderman, for example, is 99 % completely civil and yet is tauted as a hate monger by your crowd which in my view is inexplicable.

     
  • Kim Lee posted at 4:42 pm on Mon, Mar 26, 2012.

    Kim Lee Posts: 1798

    Patty wrote, "mskl: There are a few things that DB, JK, KP and many others on this site disagree...it is just that we use civility to express civility for their position then follow that up with a little thing known to mankind as the power of persuasion...not the fit of frivolity. Being wrong is not a weakness as you profess, rather a strength...we learn little from our successes but bounties from our mistakes. You seem to never be wrong..."

    Patty: You can post whatever you like, but it does not make it true. You are often very nasty and disrespectful, as many here already know. You have a reputation. You indeed know how NOT to be civil... that is certain. And I never said anything about you being weak when you are wrong. That comes from you alone.

     
  • Patrick W Maple posted at 1:56 pm on Mon, Mar 26, 2012.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1805

    mskl: There are a few things that DB, JK, KP and many others on this site disagree...it is just that we use civility to express civility for their position then follow that up with a little thing known to mankind as the power of persuasion...not the fit of frivolity. Being wrong is not a weakness as you profess, rather a strength...we learn little from our successes but bounties from our mistakes. You seem to never be wrong...

    He has a right to criticize, who has a heart to help.
    Abraham Lincoln

    He has a right to criticize, who has a heart to help.
    Abraham Lincoln

    Nothing is more thankful than the fish you threw back
    Sarah Elizabeth Maple 1966

     
  • Kim Lee posted at 9:11 am on Mon, Mar 26, 2012.

    Kim Lee Posts: 1798

    Joanne wrote, "One thing can be relied upon - the more Mr. Maple is proven wrong, the more worked up he gets - and the less coherent he becomes."

    Maybe he just has a lot of bad days. Maybe he always gets up on the wrong side of the bed or maybe he's trying to switch to decaf or stop smoking. Who knows! I do know that stress like that can kill ya.

     
  • Kim Lee posted at 9:05 am on Mon, Mar 26, 2012.

    Kim Lee Posts: 1798

    Darrell wrote, "I cannot remember one time K Lee making a negative remark in reference to Steve, Joanne or anyone else who expresses liberal positions no matter how ugly they are. Makes K Lee look very insincere."

    Darrell: I wonder what you would think if your post looked something like this...

    "I cannot remember one time Darrell Baumbach making a negative remark in reference to Brian, Pat, Jerome or anyone else who expresses right wing positions no matter how ugly they are. Makes Darrell Baumbach look very insincere."

    I think you would take issue with that, Darrell.

     
  • Kim Lee posted at 9:00 am on Mon, Mar 26, 2012.

    Kim Lee Posts: 1798

    Darrell: You can post all the attacks on my character you like. I would expect nothing less from you.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 4:04 am on Mon, Mar 26, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Pat, have you noticed that the more attacks and low level remarks Ms Bobin makes , the more k lee seems to chime in ...with her silliness.
    I cannot remember one time K Lee making a negative remark in reference to Steve, Joanne or anyone else who expresses liberal positions no matter how ugly they are.

    Makes K Lee look very insincere.

     
  • Kim Lee posted at 1:36 am on Mon, Mar 26, 2012.

    Kim Lee Posts: 1798

    Joanne wrote, "One thing can be relied upon - the more Mr. Maple is proven wrong, the more worked up he gets - and the less coherent he becomes."

    I noticed that too, Joanne.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 10:58 pm on Sat, Mar 24, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Joanne Bobin posted at 8:58 am on Sat, Mar 24, 2012....I'm just like a middle-school girl....Blah, blah, blah, talk, talk talk, a whole lot about nothin'"


    Who am I to argue with Ms Bobin's assessment of herself.... I think she hit the nail... no the spike square in the head on this one. When Ms Bobin gets it right
    ( which is not often), she should get full credit for a special rare occasion.

    Congratulations Ms Bobin... but really, I would not have said a middle school girl... maybe a freshman in highschool just ready to get her drivers license.?

     
  • Patrick W Maple posted at 7:58 pm on Sat, Mar 24, 2012.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1805

    msidiotb: My favorite people in the world and my life are women...my grandmother...a wise Native American and leader of our tribe...my mother...third grade education with more knowledge of children and the world you could never achieve, my wife...wise, compassionate, tender, educated, generous and loving...my daughter...a born leader, compassionate to people and animals (stray dog and cat syndrome)...Maggie...named after Maggie Thatcher...one of the greatest world leaders ever...Freida Mankiller...love the name...head of the Cherokee Nation for many years...credited for bringing the tribe to fiscal responsibility and away from gov handouts (a lesson that could be learned today)

    So...once again you are caught talking out or your a s s...because your head is up there...sorry...but "if you want to act like a many you will be treated as I treat any man..." Sara Elizabeth Maple 1966.

     
  • Joanne Bobin posted at 8:58 am on Sat, Mar 24, 2012.

    Joanne Bobin Posts: 4488

    Mr. Baumbach reminds me of a recent commercial for Comcast - the character has just gotten unlimited telephone service from Comcast and he is telling the person on the other end of the line..."I'm just like a middle-school girl....Blah, blah, blah, talk, talk talk, a whole lot about nothin'"

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 10:50 pm on Fri, Mar 23, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Ms Bobin stated...If you ever gave me credit for anything, I would have to believe that you had somehow gained some type of intelligence. Not a personal attack, just an acute observation...

    Ms Bobin must think Pat a genius then... he and many in the forum have given her credit for many things... she has been given complete credit for demonstrating the attitude and reasoning of a liberal democrat that led her to conclude that the Stewart Show is an accurate source of news and that Lodi has bigots around each and every corner ... lately, pink bunny rabbits as well... she gets full credit for all.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 10:31 pm on Fri, Mar 23, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Mr Heuer stated...Darrell
    Please wipe your chin you're beginning to drool
    You've been busy posting and have contributed zip. You were at it since 3AM you must be tired...

    Why thank you from the bottom of my heart Mr Heuer... When someone of your
    ilk says I have contributed nothing ( from your perspective of course) it is the highest of compliments. I am a bit disappointed that you restricted your imagery to just wiping my chin... can't you think of something more derogatory and belittling a die hard liberal such as your self is famous for... Maybe you need to watch more Bill Maher or listen to heavy metal in order to bring out your creative juices...? please try harder next time.

    By the way Mr Heuer.. I never post things at 1:00am or the middle of the night... you have your facts wrong as usual... just what everyone knows to be true... wrong facts...wrong conclusions... Mr Heuer at his best.

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 9:06 pm on Fri, Mar 23, 2012.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2857

    One thing that can be relied upon- the more Mr. Maple makes assertions backed up by facts the more Ms. Bobin attempts to discredit him. She so consumed by her hatred for the truth. She is the epitome of the classic Liberal desperate to demonize anyone she disagrees with.

     
  • Joanne Bobin posted at 2:24 pm on Fri, Mar 23, 2012.

    Joanne Bobin Posts: 4488

    One thing can be relied upon - the more Mr. Maple is proven wrong, the more worked up he gets - and the less coherent he becomes (not that he starts out coherent at all - see his "need" to make up his own secret vocabulary).

    Better stop popping the Xanax, Mr. Maple. You and your misogynistic twin, Rush, will end up in rehab together before you can say, "I hate women!"

     
  • Patrick W Maple posted at 1:43 pm on Fri, Mar 23, 2012.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1805

    mrhuerer: Have you ever heard of a government closed session meeting? Geez....have you been reading consumer reports again? Have you ever been audited by a state agency? Maybe by the IRS? Ever been to small claims court or superior court? Ever had a DUI...a divorce...there is nothing private in any of these.

    Here is an example of a fact: From 1890 to 1914 the unionized wages in manufacturing rose from $17.63 a week to $21.37, and the average work week fell from 54.4 to 48.8 hours State legislation 1912–1918: The ONLY thing in all of your developmental skills was opinion...appropriately assigned to this section of the newspaper. Have you read up on Saul Alinsky and Rosa Parks yet?

    Here is a quote: “The human spirit glows from that small inner light of doubt whether we are right, while those who believe with certainty that they possess the right are dark inside and darken the world outside with cruelty, pain, and injustice.” Sounds like a BO to me!


    msbbbbbnnn: I do believe you are correct...I gave away my brains and sanity when I started responding to your turmage. My word.

    "paragraphic commutation": Give the typewriter a break for goodness sake. More ink doesn't make you righter. Speech COMMUNICATIONS...and yours?

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 11:52 am on Fri, Mar 23, 2012.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1661

    Pat
    You said "(Dems) make a bunch of statements...without stating any facts"

    Please read my post again and then read yours (all of them if needed especially the one with the Hitler remark) and a FACT should become clear: that you over paid for your communication degree.

     
  • Joanne Bobin posted at 10:53 am on Fri, Mar 23, 2012.

    Joanne Bobin Posts: 4488

    Mr. Maple wrote: "I've saved msb for last because that is where she usually is in the line for brains...lost somewher between dumb and dumber...that is a personal attack."

    Thank you, Mr. Maple. Coming from you, I will take that as a compliment. If you ever gave me credit for anything, I would have to believe that you had somehow gained some type of intelligence. Not a personal attack, just an acute observation.

     
  • Patrick W Maple posted at 9:27 am on Fri, Mar 23, 2012.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1805

    Sorry mrlupus: The House is responsible for spending and the budget. The Senate approves it (after compromises are made) then the Pres gets his say. Remember that 2-3 thousand page document the flash around on TV? That BOOK comes from the House.

    Mr Hurrrereer: My degrees are in Speech Communications. I don't need any more classes...I have class...unlike some on this site. You are doing exactly what Dems do...make a bunch of statements...without stating any facts...then defend your postion with even less. It is called stonewalling and obfuscation. Have you been listening to your other half again???

    Sac???...Been there done that...remember when I got my a s s chewed for gettingh a $6Million dollar grant for Estrellita? Supposedly that was done behind close doors.
    Statements by your both halves.

    You watch too many movies...THEY aren't real either...except for Act of Valor.

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 11:38 pm on Thu, Mar 22, 2012.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1661


    Darrell
    Please wipe your chin you're beginning to drool
    You've been busy posting and have contributed zip. You were at it since 3AM you must be tired

    But to what you said "It's the government that meets behind closed doors ". Go to Sacramento sometime and visit the capital. Go inside and see the big room with all the chairs and desks thats where government meets and, discusses bills and votes. No secrets there. Theres another big room where the assembly meets. They do it the same way in Wash DC. Now go to a Large corporation and see if you can listen in on one of their corporate meetings. They'll tell you you have no business there. The government can't tell you you have no business where the peoples business is conducted. Theres no smoke filled back rooms (heres no smoking) especially since Arnold left.

    PM Please note I took your advice and added paragraphs. Hope that helps. Now if I can return some advice I would suggest you take an English composition class.

    Thank you J Lucas for the excellent contributions here. You make a great contrast to DB who adds nothing and like you say wants you to do everything for him. Joanne you are great.I'm glad you don't let them get you down. You are sharper and better than them.

     
  • Ed Miller posted at 10:08 pm on Thu, Mar 22, 2012.

    Ed946 Posts: 70

    Ms Bobin,

    With all due respect, I think you are overly sensitive about the title of the column. The name came from our association with the Tea Party Patriots and nothing else. I disagree with your premise. American patriots through our history have disagreed on issues and that did not affect their degree of patriotism.

    Ms Parigoris’ question was asking for specific examples of corruption in today’s government. My answer was that the amount of taxpayer money being lost to crony-capitalism/unionism thanks to both political parities is massive and is factually accurate.

    The subject of the column was not “are we turning into a socialistic state. Our effort was to stay on task and provide views that have factual backup, no matter how we feel. As for entitlements, they are growing at a geometric rate and are not fiscally sustainable, provable fact even if we would wish otherwise.

    On the “playbook" remark, I would have been OK with a statement from you similar to “this sure sounds like Tea Party rhetoric promoting their agenda.” This would have been a fair question putting the onus on me to prove otherwise.

    We thought it important to define our values so everyone understands where we are coming from in future columns. The three tenets define our reaction to local issues, at all levels. The influence Federal and state governments have on Lodi is significant and is fair game in local discussion and decisions. Attend a City Council meeting if you doubt this. Using examples seemed a reasonable method of clarification when you consider the column is limited to roughly 650 words.

    Sorry, many entitlements do make people dependent – easy to prove. I am 65. Social Security and Medicare is a reality I cannot avoid. Investment in Social Security as a working life requirement and I expect a return on investment, period. I would have preferred a 401k but that was not an option. Moreover, seniors are “stuck” with Medicare because this is the only risk pool that we can join. Insuring oneself as an individual is economically impractical unless you are wealthy.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 9:25 pm on Thu, Mar 22, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Mr Marple said:

    Mr Lucas: Where do you get your information?: "The only time we have balanced the budget was under a Democrat Administration." ??? Newt Gingrich did it four times. Geeeez...do you just make this stuff up???

    Patrick, Are you related to Sarah Palin? Newt Gingrich was speaker of the house during the Clinton Administration. You might find this hard to believe but Bill Clinton(The only President to balance the budget since the 1950's ) was a DEMOCRAT. A big part of that was raising taxes in 1993 WITHOUT a single Republican vote. Rush Limbaugh boldly predicted that this would cause a downturn in the economy and offered to make a million dollar bet that it would do so. Sadly no one took him up on it. All that happened was the biggest peacetime expansion in history, the creation of 23 million jobs leading to a balanced budget for four years.
    Mr Marple said:

    Read some history man!

    Patrick you might want to take your own advice.

     
  • Patrick W Maple posted at 9:15 pm on Thu, Mar 22, 2012.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1805

    mr heurer: " I disagree private industry is the answer to everything thats why I subscribe to consumer reports."??????? DB: the government meets behind closed doors and is not accountable...did you read that in consumer reports?? Send a copy to mr huerer. OR did you figure that out on your own??? DB: "...example... Hitler was "VERY SUCCESSFUL" at killing Jewish people..." As were his cronies! Holy cow!!!

    mrheu: Take a break...make a paragraphic commutation every now and then.

    DB: "there are a lot of people who are very unhappy with medicare as it is... now you want to force everyone to have it.." including my mother in law who is a Dem...VERY GOOD point.

    I've saved msb for last because that is where she usually is in the line for brains...lost somewher between dumb and dumber...that is a personal attack.
    "Alinsky was no more radical than Rosa Parks - just more organized."
    ?????????????????????????????????????????????

    He wrtote a book Rules for Radicals. Rosa Parks sat in the front of the bus
    ALINSKY: ..." if there is an afterlife, and I have anything to say about it, I will unreservedly choose to go to hlel." Rosa Parks would never have agreed to that. The Tea Party gives Alinsky's Rules for Radicals to its top leadership members. A shortened guide called Rules for Patriots is distributed to its entire network. I doubt if Rosa Parks ever read it. YET:

    On December 1, 1955, in Montgomery, Alabama, Parks refused to obey bus driver James F. Blake's order that she give up her seat to make room for a white passenger. Parks' action was not the first of its kind to impact the civil rights issue. Others had taken similar steps, including Lizzie Jennings in 1854, Homer Plessy in 1892, Irene Morgan in 1946, Sarah Louise Keys in 1955, and Claudette Colvin on the same bus system nine months before Parks, but Parks' civil disobedience had the effect of sparking the Montgomery Bus Boycott.

    Parks became an international icon of resistance to racial segregation. She organized and collaborated with civil rights leaders, including boycott leader Martin Luther King, Jr., helping to launch him to national prominence in the civil rights movement. Those are the facts. Rosa Parks accomplished much more and was a better activist than Alinsky ever thought about. Just the opposite of your comment. You are still an idiot. Organize that.

     
  • Patrick W Maple posted at 8:37 pm on Thu, Mar 22, 2012.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1805

    Mr Miller: The governments of this country are supposed to be ran like a business...like mine...I am asked to do a job...I say what I will do it for...the customer okays the price...I do the job...then I get paid. Simple...like making a sandwich...the problem is that the government entities (nearly all of them) are not capable of doing this...they will proverbably sercw up a free lunch.

    I would like to point out one glaring misconception about taxes and government revenue: ":when the government has surplus revenues (no such thing), it would cut taxes. Moreover, the opposite would be true; i.e., increase taxes for increasing deficits (overspending) to maintain the balance." The problem is not taxes but rather the continued inflating of spending...government entities CREATE jobs so they can get pay raises...better position (eg; supervisor or administrator) thus a raise in position and pay...the misconception is that they would give these up. As far as a checkbook and balancing it...that my friend is in the eye of the beholder...have you heard of defecit spending and sub-balance budgets...look at the state's budget for schools sometime. What a crock!!!!

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 8:26 pm on Thu, Mar 22, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    CONTINUED...

    We all come to conclusions and believe something Mr Heuer. We look at the information in front of us and draw conclusions.. When we learn of additional information later, what we think is fact today can change. I believe that you were attempting to be honest in your assessment of me based on the information I have today. Facts are facts based on what we believe to be fact. I could believe it is a fact that the earth is flat. I then after study and gain new information, change what I believe to be fact.... Now I believe it is a fact that the world is more round shaped, not flat.

    I think Mr Heuer may be one of the world's most confused as to what a fact actually is. He Believes Andi Rooney is right... He believes governments are more trust worthy than corporations... These beliefs may or may not be true... but they obviously are not provable facts... This is an opinion forum Mr Heuer... not a fact forum. We all try to give fact as we believe it is... but in the end, most things you conclude are what you believe and not based on fact. That is why so many things are subject to debate. I assume you would not debate that 2+2=4 but I assume you would debate what political policies are good for our country and why... it would be a debate of what you believe...not fact.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 8:22 pm on Thu, Mar 22, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Mr Heuer stated...You used an interesting choice of word, believe, not based on facts, but in this belief system you have of course you couldn't recognise your distortions or fact empty comments.
    Then Mr Heuer stated... You live in a very warped world. You painted yourself into a corner of that world and all reality is shut out. People don't even exist anymore to you.
    Then Mr Heuer stated... Joanne is very good for you because she can help you get back to the light of day and yes she is smarter than you..

    Response... Mr Heuer accuses me of going by my belief, and not based on fact... he then turns around and rants on for an eternity all about “ HIS BELIEFS”... he believes I live in a warped world, he perceives (believes) Joanne to be smarter than I, he believes Joanne is good for me, he believes people do not exist to me...

     
  • Patrick W Maple posted at 8:21 pm on Thu, Mar 22, 2012.

    Pat Maple Posts: 1805

    Mr Lucas: Where do you get your information?: "The only time we have balanced the budget was under a Democrat Administration." ??? Newt Gingrich did it four times. Geeeez...do you just make this stuff up???
    FDR may have begun SS, but a fellow Democrat is the one who opened the door for its downfall...LBJ...to pay for the Viet Nam war. Labor laws began in the 1800's
    From 1890 to 1914 the unionized wages in manufacturing rose from $17.63 a week to $21.37, and the average work week fell from 54.4 to 48.8 hours State legislation 1912–1918: 36 states adopted the principle of workmen's compensation for all industrial accidents. FDR was the one who managed to move us into WWI...by psissing off the Germans when he began the Lend-Lease to Britain. Read some history man!

     
  • John Lucas posted at 8:13 pm on Thu, Mar 22, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Darrell, like said I am not going to do your work for you. In a post on anther letter I already gave my answer. I will repeat it here.

    Darrell said:

    Your statistics are again meaningless. You ignore that the costs for health care as a percentage of GDP have variables and factors that are not present in other countries that are here in this one.
    You comically draw a conclusion that if we embrace universal health care that our costs will go down to the level of these countries. You also are not addressing the horrors and dissatisfaction with the quality of care that these countries have.

    I understand that, as a conservative science and statistics. are meaningless to you.Let me give you a couple of my personal observations. I lived in Mazatlan Mexico for 18 months a couple of years ago. It is Canada south. I met hundreds of Canadiens and not one say they would want our health system over theirs and I asked nearly every one I met. I ran out of a medicine down there and went to a local pharmacy and picked it up for $28 dollars. Here it cost $230. I have talked to many people from all over Europe and again not one of them would want to trade medical systems with us.
    In a poll conducted in November of last year 70% of Britons said they were satisfied withe the British National Health Service. The current British Prime Minister, David Cameron, is a Tory which is the equivalent of our Republican Party. This is what he had to say about the British National Health Service:

    I believe the creation of the NHS is one of the greatest achievements of the 20th century. I always believed this.
    
David Cameron, 2006

    The fact is that in Briton or any developed country if a politician tried to replace their system with ours he or she would never be elected. They are just not that stupid.
    The American health insurance is a scam designed by Conservatives to rip off the American people and send as much cash as they can to the top 1/10 of one percent of the income bracket and you, Darrell are a willing accomplice. Without you and people like you this scam could not exist

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 7:57 pm on Thu, Mar 22, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Mr Lucas stated...I am not going to your work for you. All the developed countries in the world have some sort of universal healthcare

    Please Mr Lucas... I already know the answer and am not expecting you to do any work for me. Why are you so hesitant to get into actual detail? Why are you uncomfortable in actually addressing specifics? I think you know that as long as you stick to far left theory, statistics and talking points, that you will not have a problem. Lets get into reality and specifics. Name three countries that have proven universal health care that helps their economy and is embraced enthusiastically by the people who are forced to use it. After you name the countries I will focus only on these and then give actual facts concerning these countries...In these three countries, please identify how it is that the cost of their system has the exact same variables that influence the cost of their system. When a government agency can determine what is or is not covered and there are no alternatives, they can decide how to control costs. Letting people die before the get the care they need is one way of controlling costs which can easily be accomplished in any universal health care system. Please address this issue and all variables that result in a lower statistic of cost of health care.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 7:45 pm on Thu, Mar 22, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Mr Heuer stated...I agree with Andy Rooney ( an admitted leftist) when he was on 60 minutes some time ago where he said he trusted government more than corporations because they always meet behind closed doors and seldom disclose what they are doing...

    Sounds like “Orwellian Think" “1984” and Mr Heuer represents the Ministry of Truth...

    It's the government that meets behind closed doors and not accountable. ... it's the corporations that must abide by government regulations, mandates and IRS audits if they do not comply. Every corporation is subject to government oversight and subject to Congressional subpenas to appear before a committee and if they lie, have severe and terrible consequences legally. Every industry is micromanaged and regulated by government. The corporations are also subject to law suits and must pay damages if found guilty of negligence or fraud....When was the last time Congress or any part of the federal government sued by the private sector? The government ( left and right) commits fraud on a daily basis and is not accountable.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 7:28 pm on Thu, Mar 22, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Ms Bobin stated...As far as "all-knowing Ms. Parigoris," I don't understand how this could possibly be perceived as a personal attack

    Of course you do Ms Bobin... its what you live for.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 7:24 pm on Thu, Mar 22, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Mr Heeuer stated...I read your post about Saul Alinsky and there is nothing there to say whats wrong with him. You simply say he was successful. Now according to Sean Hannity (and others) we are not to disparage those that are successful.

    Please Mr Heuer, are you for real? Let me give you an example... Hitler was "VERY SUCCESSFUL" at killing Jewish people... would Hannity say that you shouldn't disparage those who are successful? You point is beyond thoughtless, you are absurd.

     
  • Joanne Bobin posted at 4:55 pm on Thu, Mar 22, 2012.

    Joanne Bobin Posts: 4488

    Constructive comments, Mr. Heurer.

    I understand that Mr. Miller has been a sort of "watch-dog" at city council meetings and has questioned many decisions. When I first saw this column, I was hoping that he was going to inform more on the local level. Please keep attending and informing Lodi citizens about local actions. I think your column would be more valuable on the local level, Mr. Miller. Thanks for your community involvement.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 4:51 pm on Thu, Mar 22, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Darrell said:

    Mr Lucas stated...The first thing they would have done is put everyone on medicare which is a single payer system...
    Please itemize all the countries that have a single payer system where they still embrace it and the economy benefited from it?

    I am not going to your work for you. All the developed countries in the world have some sort of universal healthcare. Some are socialistic such as England, some have highly regulated health insurance companies such as Germany and some are single payer such as Norway. What they share in common is that they cover everyone at about half the price and are rated higher than us in general outcomes, and for most the people live longer.

    I will give you an example how Conservatives muddy the water. Sean Hannity said the an Englishwoman had a baby in the hall of a British hospital as an example of how terrible their system is. Turns out if we had the same mortality rate as the english we would have 70,000 less infant deaths a year and double that if we had the same rate as Sweden or Japan

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 4:03 pm on Thu, Mar 22, 2012.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1661

    Ed
    You can't take things personal in the editorial pages. Nobody really knows you I'm sure. However your venture into the editorial pages with a personal point of view representing a national organization you are bound to hear that there are different points of view. Conservatives like the Tea Party have always dislikerd many social programs especially "entitlements". There just happens to be people that favor them and feel they are as pivital as the bill of rights. Entitlements after all are contractual arrangements. If you meet certain rquirements you will be granted participation. If I serve in the military I am entitled to shop at the PX. If I pay into social security I am entitled to benifits just like paying into any insurance program. I disagree private industry is the answer to everything thats why I subscribe to consumer reports. I agree with Andy Rooney when he was on 60 minutes some time ago where he said he trusted government more than corporations because they always meet behind closed doors and seldom disclose what they are doing. I have problems with money in government and want campaign reform above most else. For me to say that anyone who thinks different from me is corrupt is not recognising we are all Americans and have differing views as the founding fathers did. No reg or program can stand if there isn't an American who supports it. If you truely want to do education to your point of view as stated in your 2-21-12 column then you have to hear the opposing view to strengthen your position. It may be difficult. Otherwise you'll just be preaching to your choir.

     
  • Joanne Bobin posted at 1:45 pm on Thu, Mar 22, 2012.

    Joanne Bobin Posts: 4488

    Mr. Miller: I am sorry that you perceive the two items you listed as personal attacks. I stand by my statement that the name "Patriot's Corner" is an insult to anyone who does not agree with TEA Partier's way of thinking - it automatically assumes those who do not agree with your definitions ARE NOT PATRIOTS. Think about it for a minute and maybe you will understand the implication.

    As far as "all-knowing Ms. Parigoris," I don't understand how this could possibly be perceived as a personal attack. She stated, "Besides corruption...," which implies that she has knowledge of ACTUAL corrupt activities within government that have "created fiscal irresponsibility." I want to know WHAT those are and why she has not enumerated them here rather than toss out a verbal bomb that leaves readers wondering what SHE knows that THEY don't know.

    Your current definition of "entitlements" is more accurate. I took exception to the implication in your column that entitlements are somehow responsible for turning this country into a welfare society (or as the TEA Party likes to call it, a Socialist society). And please, don't make me cite a dozen rerferences proving that the TEA Party does not endorse calling President Obama a socialist.

    Partial "Welfare" reform was passed under President Reagan and later President Clinton signed into law the current system, Temporary Assistance to Needy Families (TANF) which eliminated AFDC, and required recipients to obtain job training and get a job. It also instituted tighter restrictions on food stamps and aid to immigrants.

    As far as the TEA Party playbook, sorry you took that so literally. I thought you would understand that to mean the TEA Party "agenda" which includes all of the "answers" to the contrived questions included in your column.

    Your organization, Lodi Citizens In Action, would garner more credibiltiy by simply stating that these are the positions that your organization holds on these topics rather than presenting them as indisputable facts. You are entitled to your opinions, but do the thinking a citizen favor and don't spin facts in subtle ways to make them appear as something they are not - like entitlements making people dependent, unless you believe that YOU, yourself, do not believe you are entitled to receive benefits from the Social Security and Medicare systems you have most likely paid into all of your life.

     
  • Ed Miller posted at 12:23 pm on Thu, Mar 22, 2012.

    Ed946 Posts: 70

    Ms Bobin,

    Suggest you go back and read your own post of 3/21 for personnal attacks like “is an insult not only to the intelligence of anyone who reads it,” “all-knowing Ms. Parigoris,” etc. I would not insult you in that way even though I disagree with your views. Let's just debate the facts.

    Definition of entitlement: You said I got the definition of of the "TEA Party Playbook." So, I quoted Merriam-Webster’s definition and then you said I am using the English language incorrectly. OK, try this PoliSci definition from Auburn @ http://www.auburn.edu/~johnspm/gloss/entitlement_program. It states in brief that an entitlement is: “The kind of government program that provides individuals with personal financial benefits…which an indefinite…number of potential beneficiaries have a legal right…whenever they meet eligibility conditions that are specified by the standing law that authorizes the program. The beneficiaries of entitlement programs are normally individual citizens…sometimes organizations such as business corporations, local governments, or even political parties...The most important examples of entitlement programs at the federal level…include Social Security, Medicare,…,agricultural price support programs…Since the middle 1980s, entitlement programs have accounted for more than half of all federal spending.”

    Since the subject is "fiscally responsible government," our statements in the column are appropriate, factually actuate and not out of anyone's playbook. By the way, when you find a copy of the "tea party playbook," would you mind sending me the link?

     
  • John Lucas posted at 11:25 am on Thu, Mar 22, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Earth to Darrell!
    You said:Mr Lucas...

    you completely glossed over single payer system and tort reform needed.

    In all countries that have universal health care there is no need to fight over who pays the medical bills. They aware already paid for. Single payer universal healthcare is tort reform in of itself.

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 11:02 am on Thu, Mar 22, 2012.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1661

    Darrell
    You live in a very warped world. You painted yourself into a corner of that world and all reality is shut out. People don't even exist anymore to you. There are just these two cardboard cut-outs representing a conservative, which you hold like a childs teddy bear and the other representing everything else you don't understand and call it liberal or other names you hope will be hurtful. I read your post about Saul Alinsky and there is nothing there to say whats wrong with him. You simply say he was successful. Now according to Sean Hannity (and others) we are not to disparage those that are successful. Do you even know who Saul Alinsky is? You can thank Joanne for more information and showing that what little you know about SA came from a comment by Newt so you figured it would be useful to use in your cardboard cut-out conversations. Joanne is very good for you because she can help you get back to the light of day and yes she is smarter than you. You said "I do not lie... I do not distort. I say it as I believe it." You used an interesting choice of word, believe, not based on facts, but in this belief system you have of course you couldn't recognise your distortions or fact empty comments. You also said "I can explain or account for any statement I have made in the Lodi Paper" so when on Mar 20 @ 7:48 you said to John Lucas "that people like you have corrupt intent" what is your accounting or explanation for it. Corrupt is a slanderous word and really requires some backing up. In you posts you've asked for itemization and articulation by others so heres your chance to do likewise.

     
  • Joanne Bobin posted at 9:35 am on Thu, Mar 22, 2012.

    Joanne Bobin Posts: 4488

    Darrell Sarah Baumbach Palin wrote:

    "I assume you are joking Mr Heuer. This man is considered the leader and father of the
    “community organizers. He was an idol of president Obama. Obama taught an Alinsky course in college as a professor. President Obama was in the same profession as his mentor. Obama's career and development was originated and fostered in Chicago. Alinsky was organized and taught in Chicago."

    In desperation, Mr. Baumbach-Palin has abandoned his beloved Widipedia in favor of more right wing writings about Saul Alinsky (sounds foreign/Russian/communist? and thus to be feared).

    Alinsky was no more radical than Rosa Parks - just more organized.

    Just saw a clip on TV showing your hero, Newt Gingrich, supporting an audience member's comments claiming that Obama is a "Muslim, follower of Alinsky, a Kenyan, and his goal is to bring this country to its knees." Newt agreed. Shows what this coward will do to get a vote.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 3:26 am on Thu, Mar 22, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Mr Lucas... you completely glossed over single payer system and tort reform needed. In our system, billions are spend in medical malpractice cases and the cost of legal issues in our health care system is staggering... Other countries do not have the same legal costs in their systems. Your statistics do not take into account many things. Like union wages and benefits the increase the costs. To make a fair comparison to other countries, you would have to account for doctors who have 100k a year malpractice insurance, and the higher pay and cost of care our health care providers get.
    Are you suggesting that doctors and nurses reduce their income? Are you suggesting to deunionize health care providers? There are so many variables that your statistics are meaningless at best.

    Also, there are a lot of people who are very unhappy with medicare as it is... now you want to force everyone to have it...

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 3:16 am on Thu, Mar 22, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Mr Lucas stated...The first thing they would have done is put everyone on medicare which is a single payer system...

    Please itemize all the countries that have a single payer system where they still embrace it and the economy benefited from it?

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 3:13 am on Thu, Mar 22, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Mr Lucas stated...There is not a day that goes by that Nancy Pelosi is not made a target. They say their policies will lead to downfall of our economy...

    Really Mr Lucas... if that is the case, please articulate the policies and legislation specifically endorsed and promoted by Nancy Pelosi that actually helped our economy. Please itemize the bills that resulted in a prosperous economy.

    No more negative... lets review the merit of what you claim Pelosi did. Maybe we could start with the Obamacare where she stated we need to pass the bill to see what is in it. Just a suggestion... you know her positives... I do not.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 3:06 am on Thu, Mar 22, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Mr Heuer asks...Darrell, Who is Saul Alinsky?
    I assume you are joking Mr Heuer. This man is considered the leader and father of the
    “community organizers. He was an idol of president Obama. Obama taught an Alinsky course in college as a professor. President Obama was in the same profession as his mentor. Obama's career and development was originated and fostered in Chicago. Alinsky was organized and taught in Chicago.
    Many of Alinsky's principles have been utilized and embraced by the democratic party and unions. ACORN organization embraced many of his principles. This man was very effective and successful in organizing groups to achieve goals they set out to complete.
    To ask... Who is Alinsky?... is incredible... but at the same time, since you embrace his principles and do not know who he is, maybe one could consider that evidence that people who you embrace have used Alinsky's principles to capture you in it's audience.
    You have perceived that lies and distortions are my game, but you are completely wrong. I can explain or account for any statement I have made in the Lodi Paper... easily... I do not lie... I do not distort. I say it as I believe it.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 4:49 pm on Wed, Mar 21, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Mr Heuer
    Thank you for a very good post. A real truth was when you wrote
    " One debt is the result of war costs, bank failures and tax cuts"
    The most maligned body in America today in my mind is the Democratic progressive caucus in the House of Representatives. There is not a day that goes by that Nancy Pelosi is not made a target. They say their policies will lead to downfall of our economy. Sometimes it is good to play a game of what if" Lets pretend the Al Gore won with majorities in the House and Senate sand they could pass their agenda.
    The first thing they would have done is put everyone on medicare which is a single payer system. Yes taxes would have gone up but we spend 17.5% of our GDP on medical costs in this country while the rest of the developed world spends between 10% and 12% with the Swiss being the most. If we were totally incompetent and brought it down to 14% that would free up somewhere between 400 and 500 billion dollars A YEAR! Business owners would be freed from providing insurance to their employees and employees would not have to worry about going to another job without insurance. The death panels that the insurance companies have been killing people with would be a thing of the past. There would be no bankruptcies because of health costs. Entrepreneurs could take more chances know their families would not be without health benefits if they failed. Those of us with a conscious would not have to feeling of guilt and helplessness that comes when see a victim of our current system. Yes the CEO of United Health would not have earned 750 million dollars in stock options by creating the best death panels in America but I am sure with his moral code he will always make money.
    The second thing they would have done is bring back Glass-Seagall and further reregulated Wall Street making it more transparent. After witnessing the events of 2008 this should need much explaining.
    It is very possible that 911 might never have happened. If one reads Richard Clarke's (he was the terror chief of Bush Sr., Clinton and Bush Jr.) it is clear that Osama and the terror threat was not even on their radar. Let us say that it did. We would have gone after him and would have got Ben Ladin. We definitely would not have gone into Iraq and we would have left Afghanistan long ago.
    There would have been tax cuts to those making less $500.000 and after that figure taxes would have gone up to what West Germany taxes which is 45%. Capital Gains taxes would be treated as income with exceptions for housing and retirement. This will go a long way to keeping the biggest casino,, the US stock market, the world under control. It would pay to invest for the long term.
    With the Dot Com bubble burst we would have gone into a recession even if 911 did not happen. it is what a free market does. The genius of Keynesian ideas is that it is two sided. Clinton did his part by paying off the debt(something this current crop of Conservatives would never do) while time are good because as a student of history he knows that it will not last forever. My conservative friends when times are good cut taxes saying that we should give people back their money and when times are bad they say cut taxes because this will create jobs. All it guarantees is that you will drive up the national debt. Clinton did his part and when we are in a recession we go to step two. There is no demand and interest rates are low. The beauty of this is that is time we as a nation through our elected representatives decide what do we need to do in the national interest what private enterprise cannot do by itself. In the 1930's we built TVA and electrified the south,built roads bridges by the thousands. In the 1940's we fought world war !!. In the 1950's we started building the interstate highway system. In the 1960's went to the moon. In the 70's we did nothing and when Saint Ronnie blessed us with his anti=government rhetoric we have not had a national vision since. Starting in 2003 we should have started the rebuilding of the national smart electrical grid. The first goal of this project would have been to increase the range of which you can transport electricity without substantial loss from 70 miles of today to over 700 miles. The second is to make it possible for anyone connected to the grid to sell electricity back to the grid. If a homeowner had a solar system he could be selling electricity back to the grid when he is not using it. I used to haul onions to a plant in Fernley NV. It us natural hot spring water to make electricity to dry the onions. They could be sending electricity to San Francisco. Men like Boone Pickens would building windmills by the thousands. Entrepreneurs of all stripes would have been sitting up nights figuring out how to take advantage of this. The government would not have built this. They would hire private companies to do the work. The companies would pay workers who have to buy cars, food, housing etc. This investment by itself would have spurred the economy and because it would be creating something needed and useful it would pay for itself over and over and would have something wonderful to show for it. What was our Conservative friends stimulus? The Iraq war.What do we have to show for it? Death, maiming and a mountain of debt. You have to ask yourself, Why?
    It is because our corporate Government which is run by the oil companies, Coal companies, the defense contractors and the utility companies would lose money. It is that simple and when you vote Republican that is who you are voting for.

     
  • Joanne Bobin posted at 4:33 pm on Wed, Mar 21, 2012.

    Joanne Bobin Posts: 4488

    If Mr. Miller believes that correcting the definition of "entitlement" is a personal attack, then that would seem to be a big problem of his perception. His dictionary definition as follows:

    1a: the state or condition of being entitled : RIGHT b : a right to benefits specified especially by law or contract
    2a: government program providing benefits to members of a specified group; also : funds supporting or distributed by such a program
    3: belief that one is deserving of or entitled to certain privileges

    Definition 1a is a very general description, but by law, those receiving entitlements have a RIGHT to receive them.. 1b. corresponds with government entitlements as does 2a. #3 has nothing to do with government entitlements and has ALL to do with Mr. Miller's definition contained in the original column, below:

    "The greatest offenders are entitlements where someone, an individual or organization, becomes dependent and feels "entitled" to some government benefit."

    To describe the beneficiaries of entitlement programs as people who feel "entitled," i.e., a flippant reference to people who "want something for nothing," is incorrect and is the type of inflammatory language for which the TEA Party and conservatives in general are known.

    Using pejoratives to define government and government programs is neither productive nor honest and only serves to pervert sincere discussion.

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 2:31 pm on Wed, Mar 21, 2012.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1661

    Ed
    I personally appreciate your comments here to further expand on the thinking behind the column. Politics and economics are very complicated and adaquate discussion cannot be made in short posts in the editorial section. When you say entitlements you try to make it a dirty word. I have no problem with those like yourself who don't need it. There is a purpose and a rational for them but safety net is the short answer. I agree with John Lucas that Social Security is not a problem right now. Besides it is paid into by the eventual recipients mostly. SS is like an insurance you pay into and may or may not need. But theres always the possibility you may need it. I agree with you cromy capitalism is the biggest problem we have in this country. This is why the rich keep getting richer and the middle class is shrinking. We can't have any decent economy without the middle class. We start to look like Mexico or other countries that consolidate wealth at the top (another form of entitlement class. They didn't earn it). When you say crony unionism I am not sure what you are concerned about. It is nol any where near the size and problem of crony capitalism. The hey-day of unions seems to be over which is both benificial and detrimental. Of course the concerns are different between state and national government in terms olf politics. So is there a particular concern. Tax cuts is a curious argument and hard to argue witholut specifics. Most have gone to the extremely wealthy. They are at the tolp of the heap. Paying taxes and receiving rebates is an invisible book keeping entry. Now when it comes to the small buisiness they are hard pressed by taxes and need a break but their share of relief is not the job creating kind (skip any pent up demand).. Small business is the major job creaters but they don't make jobs out of thin air. When the number of customers increase then they hire. The biggest consumer demand is with the midle class. When they get dollars they spend. Tax relief for them is greatly needed and when 300000 spend a dollar well thats, well $300000. So stimulus is effective when it goes to consumers however it doesn't last forever and in this economy it would have to be sustained for to long a time waiting for the private sector to kick in. Tax relief now would also be negative impact 1 because most would go to the the extremely wealthy and little to the demand producing consumers and the job creating small business. Now if you look at the stock market it is doing well and I made money on some Google stock recently. What I'm trying to say the wealthy are already spending. They aren't waiting for a tax break to spend. But they to are waiting to expand their spending when there are clear signs to invest. Europe has to get over their economic woes, banks need to feel theres a future to turn loose of their capitol. The rich don't necessarily want tax cuts they want a predictable tax year to year. They will spend because they have all the money.When we talk of debt which I'm glad you recognise some debt is benificial and since Alex Hamilton we have even benifited from debt. But in my view there are 2 debts. One debt is the result of war costs, bank failures and tax cuts. These I see as temporary and will right themselves as time goes by. The second is governments tendency to overspend. I see this as a chronic problem and needs attention. So to say we need to cut spending now that may in the long run cut things that may be desired as the economy recovers. What we need to do is decide what it is as a nation we want, Figure out what future revenues we can anticipate what those will cost. This is a different recession and a difficult one. We lost the housing industry and all the related construction support. Those were jobs lost and can't be regained for some time. So to create new jobs they have to come from some where else. There is nothing right now to match the scale. Our economy has been down for the count and it is a waiting period. The politicians know this but you can't say it in an election year. So someone touts a plan the other shuts it down to look like something is trying to be done. However each side finds it a great time while people make donations to their preferred parties and candidates. Stimulus and tax relief can only be viewed as a charitable relief while we wait.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 1:40 pm on Wed, Mar 21, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Mr Miller said

    I am reading a number of personal attacks in response to the column and follow-up comments instead of substantive arguments. When the discussion turns personal, then that person(s) is admitting defeat. Why don't you make your case factually, if you have one?


    Mr Miller
    I did not make any personal attacks. What i did do was point out the differences between Tea Party and Liberal financial thinking. I will do so again.

    We Liberals believe in the following:

    1. A highly progressive income tax
    2. Financial regulation of Wall Street
    3. Labor laws protecting working people
    4. Keynesian economics

    I pointed out that all nations that have a substantial middle class have implemented these policies. I even named a few of them for you. I also challenged you, Mr Baumbach, Mr Kinderman and all my Conservative friends here to come up with one country in the world which followed Conservative of Tea Party Financial policies that has a substantial middle class and has avoided financial disaster.. The only answer I get from any of you are Fox News talking points. I can understand why easily enough. THERE ARE NO COUNTRIES IN THE WORLD AND NEVER HAS BEEN THAT FOLLOW WHAT YOU ARE ADVOCATING AND HAS A STRONG MIDDLE CLASS. NONE,0 NADA.UNDERSTAND? COMPRENDE?

     
  • John Lucas posted at 1:14 pm on Wed, Mar 21, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Mr Baumbach again brings up the Conservative Lord and Savior, Ronald Reagan. In many peoples mind George W Bush was the worst President we ever had but for my money It had to be Mr Reagan.
    Poor Jimmy Carter had to deal with the price of oil going from $10 to $32 a barrel and because we were much dependent on the price of oil in the 70’s and 80’s we were lucky not to have a major depression. Carter decontrolled the price of oil in 1978 but it was not until 1985 that it finally responded and went down to $10 a barrel. If you drove a car, if your power company used oil to make electricity, if you used anything brought to you by truck or train your cost of living became much cheaper. Unlike his tax cuts, which was a huge boon to uber rich, this acted as a tax cut for idiots like me, you know ,working people. I drove long haul for over 25 years. I remember the cost in fuel form here to Boston and back went from $2000 to $1100. If Mr Reagan had the fuel prices rise as they did for Mr Carter and Mr Bush we would have probably went into a deep recession or a depression
    In Mr Bushes case by lowering taxes on the uber rich, gutting financial regulations, and ignoring laws that protect working people nearly drove into what Republicans have a long history of, which is drive us into a major depression. From 1870 to 1929 because of no progressive income tax, little financial regulation, no real labor laws and no understanding of Keynesian economics, this country experienced a major depression just about every 10 years. In 1932 with the election of FDR this trend was reversed, the above policies were introduced and we were rewarded with the growth of the biggest middle class in the world. This was replicated in Europe, Japan , Australia, New Zealand etc. This reversal was introduced by Mr Reagan and Mr Bush did everything in his power to lead us into financial ruin and the destruction of the middle class which Mr Reagan’s policies and ideas will always ultimately lead to, They are the same ideas that were in place that led to the Great Depression.
    Mr Reagan’s ultimate crimes were twofold. He made us feel good about our prejudices and made selfishness and greed seem like virtues instead of the biblical vices that they most definitely are.

     
  • Ed Miller posted at 9:49 am on Wed, Mar 21, 2012.

    Ed946 Posts: 70

    I am reading a number of personal attacks in response to the column and follow-up comments instead of substantive arguments. When the discussion turns personal, then that person(s) is admitting defeat. Why don't you make your case factually, if you have one?

    Per Merriam-Webster:
    en•ti•tle•ment
    noun \-ˈtī-təl-mənt\
    1a: the state or condition of being entitled : RIGHT b : a right to benefits specified especially by law or contract
    2a: government program providing benefits to members of a specified group; also : funds supporting or distributed by such a program
    3: belief that one is deserving of or entitled to certain privileges

    Sounds like I have it right. Crony-capitalism/unionism is a form of entitlement. And, the government is picking a winner in the market place and businesses/unions are picking a political winner. In other words, this is a money laundering system to buy power as stated.

     
  • Joanne Bobin posted at 5:24 am on Wed, Mar 21, 2012.

    Joanne Bobin Posts: 4488

    Please forgive Mr. Baumbach, Mr. Lucas and Mr. Heuer. His body of knowledge is tied solely to what he finds on Wikipedia, his bible for understanding what he really does not comprehend.

    And if that fails, throw out "Saul Alinsky," another topic of which he has absolutely no comprehension.

     
  • Joanne Bobin posted at 5:22 am on Wed, Mar 21, 2012.

    Joanne Bobin Posts: 4488

    This so-called "Patriot's Corner" is an insult not only to the intelligence of anyone who reads it, but just its name alone implies that anyone not agreeing with the TEA Partiers is NOT a patriot.

    "Kim: Besides corruption, what political spending patterns are fiscally irresponsible?"

    It would be helpful for the all-knowing Ms. Parigoris to tell us about the pervasive "corruption" she sees in government. Instead, she coyly throws out this noun as casually as tossing a hand grenade into a crowd. What corruption?...Earmarks, maybe? Or do you mean flat out stealing taxpayer money.

    "Ed: The greatest offenders are entitlements where someone, an individual or organization, becomes dependent and feels "entitled" to some government benefit. This includes social programs like Social Security but also any policies that are "crony-capitalism" or "crony-unionism" in nature."

    These definitions are straight out of the "TEA Party Playbook." At the very least, Mr. Miller has a propagandized perception of what an entitlement is. At worst, he and Ms. Parigoris are deliberately throwing out terms they deem to be frightening to the most ill-informed in the guise of "educating" the ignorant masses.

    Under Mr. Miller's definition of "crony-capitalism," we should also consider all forms of subsidies to corporations (oil/energy), farmers, and even a simple "rebate" for purchasing an energy efficient appliance.

    Ah, the art of nuance...well practiced by the TEA Party. Mr. Miller defines "entitlement" as: "an individual or organization, becomes dependent and feels "entitled" to some government benefit."

    Entitlements, defined correctly, are legislated programs, such as Social Security and Medicare, to which citizens are guaranteed benefits...not inducements to dependency on some government freebee as Mr. Miller implies.

    Looking forward to more of this organization's propaganda pieces. No telling what's next.

     
  • Andrew Liebich posted at 12:30 am on Wed, Mar 21, 2012.

    Andrew Liebich Posts: 2999

    http://www.usdebtclock.org/

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 9:57 pm on Tue, Mar 20, 2012.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1661

    Darrel
    Who is Saul Alinsky? Maybe you are following a playbook. After all you throw out strange names and calling me a radical without even knowing me. Lies and distortions is your game. After agreeing Reagan cut taxes you give a string of accomplishments however you ignore the fact that deficits occured resulting in tax hikes which Reagan reluctantly signed but felt it necessary to do. Any positive you claim should have carried forward into Bush senior but he too had to fight deficits by raising taxes (read my lips). Whether its stimulus or tax cuts they have a boosting effect that aren't sustainable. Its like getting a raise you spend up to it and start the cycle over with inflation. You said the rich paid more? They have always taken advantage of loop holes and off shore accounts to avolid their fair share. Yes I used the word fail on purpose. There are a number of factors that contributed to the economic boost following the inflationary period of Carter and the oil shortage.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 7:48 pm on Tue, Mar 20, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405


    Darrell Baumbach says: John Lucas accurately described his own post with his first sentence... good job John!

    then John Lucas posted... What insightful commentary Darrell. Your reasoning is so exquisite

    Why thank you John! I agree, your original post was so filled with inaccuracies and falsehoods, that I thought it reasonable to let your words speak for themselves. As I expected, someone ( Mr Miller) would make a post that reflected reality. He did a very good job, don't you think?

    By the way...you used the word “libtard” to describe yourself. I do not think you are being honest. I think you know exactly what you are saying and intentionally with consciousness distort and confuse reality. Personally, I never use that word as it distracts from the argument that should be made... that people like you have corrupt intent.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 7:33 pm on Tue, Mar 20, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    .Thomas Heuer posted at 2:51 pm on Tue, Mar 20, 2012....Another myth about Raegan cutting taxes when actually he raised taxes more often than lowering them. ( I assume you are referring to Ronald Reagan)

    Mr Heuer and Mr Lucas read the same books. They must have Saul Alinsky's book “Rules for Radicals” memorized as it promotes lies and distortions as a means to confuse, divide and conquer.

    For example, When Ronald Reagan was elected president, the Economic Recovery Tax Act (ERTA) of 1981, the Reagan tax cuts, was his key agenda. His proposal was to provide a 25 percent cut in personal marginal tax rates that he felt would spur the economy. The result of the Reagan tax cuts showed that reducing excessive tax rates stimulates growth, reduces tax avoidance, increased the amount and share of tax payments generated by the rich. The rich paid more in taxes with lower tax rates after the tax cuts Ronald Reagan promoted.
    This is the reality Mr Heuer and Lucas know to be true, but intentional distort. In reality, the democrats would not support the tax cut in rates unless Reagan compromised and agreed to tax increases in other areas … It was the liberal tax hungry political vampires that insisted and demanded higher taxes and now these two men are attempting to fool people in believing an alternate history that is pure fantasy.
    They should be ashamed..but quite the contrary, they are proud to carry on as Saul Alinsky surrogates .
    Amazing

     
  • John Lucas posted at 7:08 pm on Tue, Mar 20, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Mr Miller,
    The fact is your column really did not say much in the way of anything concrete.
    What really annoyed me was your saying that Social Security was financially irresponsible. The fact is that it is completely solvent well into 2030's and then would be able to pay at an 80% rate. To say otherwise is a lie.
    The policies the Tea Party proposes are mirror images of what Andrew Mellon did to the nation after the crash in 1929. These policies after 3 years led to 25% unemployment and the worst depression in our nations history. If the Tea Party Or the Conservative wing (they are the same) of the Republican party were in charge since 2008 there is no doubt we would have 25% unemployment today. Keynesian economics works. In a downturn the Government must step in to create demand otherwise you create a downward spiral which feeds upon itself.. In good times you pay off the national debt. This is what Clinton was doing the last four years of his Presidency . What did George Bush do? He immediately cut taxes, cut every regulation he could find, created an unpaid for benefit in medicare part d, and started the Iraq war, one of the biggest foreign policy and fiscal disasters of all time. People who now call themselves Tea Party people went out a voted for him again in 2004. What galls me and other Democrats is that you vote for these incompetents such as Bush and then blame the Democrats for the results. You now want to double down on policies that got us into this mess in the first place. When someone is dying of lead poisoning it is not a good idea to feed them lead and that is what Conservative and the Tea Party types want to do.

     
  • Thomas Heuer posted at 2:51 pm on Tue, Mar 20, 2012.

    nth degree wise Posts: 1661

    Thank you John Lucas
    for pointing out the simplistic and misguided statements presented in this propaganda piece. This seems to be common with the various Tea Party participants. By the way Ed Miller perpetuates a common myth that taxes lowered after WWII boosted the economy. They may have helped but the main boost came from our economic competition (Europe, Japan) was destroyed by the war. Another myth about Raegan cutting taxes when actually he raised taxes more often than lowering them. After the first major cut deficits rose to the point that increasing taxes became necessary at least 6 more time. Reagan was a good talker. One of the biggest mistakes we made was repealing the Glass-Stegal Act done with the promise that deregulation will have the economy soar with less government hindrance. Now you know why government oversight is necessary. Yes I know Clinton signed it but during that time there were the same conservative forces that demonized anyone against the idea like they did with the drum beat to war in Iraq. Another bad conservative idea. Add to this the several tax cuts of G Bush to the rich and you have the foundation for our economic quagmire today. Now the simplistic minded do their elementary math and say oh whats needed is more tax cuts for the rich (P Ryan again), get rid of regulations (Frank-Dodd) and oh by the way we need to go to war with Iran (and possibly Russia) and everything will be just fine. Now to say gee theres no money for the poor, the sick, the elderly,. students, because it was given over to the rich (it is ludicris to say they earned it.We are only talking about another entitlement system) doesn't bode well with me. If your talking about home budgets it's like over spending and saying we need to take things backto get our money back. So before there are major cuts I want my money back. I want the money spent on the wars back (what a waste), I want the tax break money back (obviolusly tax cuts haven't done anything for the econolmy). I want the money taken by the banks back (both the stolen and the hand outs) and finally I want money out of governmen that seems to be causing all of our problems of crony capitalism especially with the supreme courts "Citizens United" decision. Oh btw the same tea partiers not liking career politicians but applaud the Grover Norquist tax pledge, guess what, its being signed by those that want to get reelected. They want careers in poolitics robbing from the poor to give to the rich. Sickening.

     
  • Ed Miller posted at 10:42 am on Tue, Mar 20, 2012.

    Ed946 Posts: 70

    Mr. Lucas,

    I am trying to figure out the connection between your comments and the column printed in the newspaper. The best I can figure-out is that you believe that a highly progressive tax, financial regulation of Wall Street, labor laws and Keynesian economics are fiscally responsible versus the idea of connecting GNP to government policies, “nonsense” in your words. You said nothing about the growth of entitlements nor crony-capitalism/unionism, all big government problems, so I guess you think they are OK. You apparently did not pick-up from the column that neither political party has been particularly fiscally responsible. However, I put words in your month that may not be what you intended. I would, however, appreciate seeing the sources, not partisan or ideological sound bites, you used in your claims about what policies drove various national debts and the ability/inability of the taxpayers of those eras to pay for it.

    To your comments, FDR’s policies were not successful; the depression did not end until the mid-1940s. World War II and the decision of President Truman (D) to reduce the tax rate after the war drove the prosperity of the 1950s, counter to Keyes’ theory. In the 1960s, President Kennedy (D) used the same tactic of reducing taxes for that era’s economic woes. In reality, one could then say that President Carter (D) forgot how to do it and President Reagan (R) famously “stole” the technique to drive prosperity of the 1980s and 1990s. Bush, the second, used it again after 9/11 to good effect.

     
  • John Lucas posted at 7:46 am on Tue, Mar 20, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    Darrell Baumbach says:

    John Lucas accurately described his own post with his first sentence... good job John!

    What insightful commentary Darrell. Your reasoning is so exquisite. Your line of argument is so deep and thought provoking. I know now not to get into an argument with such a awesome intellect. Did you go to the same University as Rush Limbaugh or Sean Hannity? Sarah Palin? I am awestruck how you repudiated my argument line by line. Oh well I will now skulk back to my libtard hiding place properly chastised.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 7:15 am on Tue, Mar 20, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    John Lucas accurately described his own post with his first sentence... good job John!

     
  • John Lucas posted at 2:03 pm on Mon, Mar 19, 2012.

    John Lucas Posts: 2730

    What a bunch of nonsense!
    In 1932 we elected FDR and over time 4 main policies were implemented
    1. A highly progressive income tax
    2. Financial regulation of Wall Street
    3. Labor laws protecting working people
    4. Keynesian economics

    This led to the creation of the biggest middle class the world has ever seen and all countries that followed these principles did likewise. THERE ARE NO COUNTRIES IN THE WORLD WITH A LARGE MIDDLE BASED ON "CONSERVATIVE" OR "TEA PARTY ECONOMICS". NONE
    Since 1980 we have been down the "Conservative" road. 2/3's of the National debt has happened under "Conservatives". The financial meltdown of 2008 was a direct result of their policies. The only time we have balanced the budget was under a Democrat Administration.
    Our Republican and Conservative friends by cutting taxes on the very wealthy and destroying labor laws protecting working people have been putting as much of our nations income in the hands of the top 1/10 of one percent of the American people as fast as they can. The Republican party and the Tea Party have two sets of people voting for them. The top 1/10 of one percent the income bracket and the suckers. It all comes down to whether you believe what they say or do you believe your lying eyes.

     

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