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Taj Khan America’s Islamic history is both long and vibrant

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Taj Khan

Posted: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 12:00 am | Updated: 6:18 am, Tue Sep 14, 2010.

The roots of Islam in North America go back to roots of this nation.

Estevanico of Azamor, also known as Mustafa Zemmouri, who was reported to have explored the future states of Arizona and New Mexico for the Spanish Empire, may have been the first Muslim to enter the historical record in North America in the early 16th century. He was a Berber originally from North Africa. Later came a wave of Muslims in the form of slaves. The latest estimates are that 30 percent of the slaves brought to the U.S. were Muslims.

The historical literature of this nation is replete with references to Islam and Mohammad. The founding fathers knew about Islam and respected the religion and its followers.

In 1775, John Adams wrote: “All sober inquirers after truth, ancient and modern, pagan and Christian, have declared that the happiness of man, as well as his dignity, consists in virtue. Confucius, Zoroaster, Socrates, Mahomet, not to mention authorities really sacred, have agreed in this.”

In a petition, a group of citizens of Chesterfield County, Va., wrote to the state assembly, on Nov. 14, 1785: “Let Jews, Mehometans and Christians of every denomination enjoy religious liberty ... .”

The connection of the Islamic world to our country is deep and as old as this nation.

On December 20, 1777, Morocco, a Muslim country, was the first nation to recognize the United States as a sovereign nation. Subsequently, a Treaty of Peace and Friendship was negotiated and signed by American Agent Thomas Barclay and the King Muhammad III in June 1786, which was later endorsed and signed by Thomas Jefferson and John Adams. This treaty, among other things, said, “Peace and Harmony shall remain ... in the fullest force” and “The Commerce with the United States shall be on the same footing as is the Commerce with Spain or as that with the most favored Nation for the time being and their Citizens shall be respected and esteemed and have full Liberty to pass and repass our Country and Sea Ports whenever they please without interruption.”

According to the Pew Research Center, there are more than 2.5 million Muslims currently living in the the U.S. These estimates are disputed; some estimates go as high as 7.5 million. Muslims in U.S. are highly diverse, perhaps more diverse than any other ethnic group. They come in every color of the rainbow and every nationality.

Ignorant of history of Islam in the U.S., a narrow minded minister, Rev. Terry Jones, of Gainesville Fla., of a tiny 50 member congregation church, recently threatened to burn copies of the Quran, which Muslims believe is word of God Almighty. Muslims consider the Quran to be holy. They wash up before they touch a copy of the Quran. They revere the words. They recite them five times a day in their prayers. They listen to these words with reverence when some Qari (reciter of Quran) recite them with beautiful melodic voices. You get them on CD, DVDs and, of course, online.

Rev. Jones reminds us of the wild and barbaric marauding hordes of Genghis Khan when they ran over Baghdad in the 11th century and burned all the books, including copies of the Quran, they could find. At the time there were one million titles published in Iraq — 600,000 in Arabic language and 400,000 in other languages. Mongolians invaders, like Rev. Jones, were ignorant and uneducated and they did not trust books. Rev. Jones also reminds us of the Nazis wearing swastikas, who burned thousands of books which they disagreed with. Perhaps Rev. Jones does not know that even if he collected all the available copies of the Quran and burned them, he cannot wipe out the teaching of the Quran.

There are millions of people in the world who have the Quran memorized. In Lodi and Stockton alone, there may be about 50 people who can recite every chapter and verse of the Quran without opening it. Rev. Jones does not know that there are hundreds of references to Mary, Jesus, Moses, John, etc., whom Muslims revere.

At least a third of the Quran talks about the Mary, Jesus, Moses and their messages. Should Rev. Jones burn copies of the Quran, he will also be burning the names and references to these holy people that are common to Christianity and Judaism. Rev. Jones does not need to threaten to burn — he needs to learn.

Taj Khan of Lodi is a retired engineer and a member of the Delta College Board of Trustees.

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Welcome to the discussion.

64 comments:

  • Brian Dockter posted at 9:20 pm on Sat, Oct 2, 2010.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2830

    So long as there is this book [the Koran] there will be no peace in the world" – Prime Minister William Gladstone

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 10:13 am on Sun, Sep 26, 2010.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2830


    Relentless: The Failure of the Oslo Accords - Hudna in Islam (5 of 7)


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcdhMjXSrOc

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 8:46 am on Sun, Sep 26, 2010.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Interesting commentary of this issue at this link...

    http://www.lodinews.com/religion/article_9b37b9da-b1f6-50e4-bd71-8490c136c72a.html

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 8:33 am on Sat, Sep 25, 2010.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2830

    http://jeffjenkinsocala.blogspot.com/2009/12/islam-submission-and-duality.html

    Islam:Submission and Duality

    A clip:

    But submission is not enough to explain the success of Islam. Its most powerful principle is duality. Duality is the second major principle of Islam. We see duality in how the Qur’an and Muhammad's life are divided. First comes Mecca: the preacher...the religion---'You have your religion, I have mine.' Then comes Medina. Medina is jihad. You must submit in this life, or Islam has the option of harming you. The two positions contradict each other, but both of them are equally true.

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 7:38 pm on Fri, Sep 24, 2010.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2830


    I would sure like someone to explain how Islam's dual code of ethics can somehow
    complement the West's Unitary logic.

    -The concept of duality is foundationally important to understanding Islam. Islam has a dual code of ethics and logic. This is diametrically opposed to our unitary logic. In unitary logic, which is the logic of the West, in a scenario of a contradiction only one side of the contradiction can be true. So, in symbolic logic, you would say that A and NOT A are contradictory and both cannot be true; either A is true or NOT A is true; both cannot be true.

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 7:28 pm on Fri, Sep 24, 2010.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2830

    I was hoping Taj would expand on the history of Muslims here in America
    and actually give us his take on the many Madrassas here that preach Anti-American
    rhetoric. But I'm not going to hold my breath given Taj is but one of the multitudes of Musims
    who are hesitant to say anything critical of their faith. Yet they are quick to be critical
    of anyone criticizing Islam. If it walks like a duck.....

     
  • Jerome Kinderman posted at 5:46 pm on Fri, Sep 24, 2010.

    Jerome R Kinderman Posts: 2352

    Although it appears that the interest in this column has waned, I wonder how the editor who assigns titles to these pieces came up with the word "vibrant" to describe Islam's historical impact upon the United States; unless of course Mr. Khan was permitted to write his own title for his column (more likely). Since the online edition of Merriam-Webster's Dictionary sets for the definition closest to what I believe to be the intent, "pulsating with life, vigor, or activity" seems hardly appropriate even in spite of whether such a definition could be taken negatively. (http://tinyurl.com/27pynpe)

     
  • Sharon Wilders posted at 11:35 am on Mon, Sep 20, 2010.

    Sharon Wilders Posts: 2

    I just thought of something that was glaring at me. The burning of books. Basically, as I stated in my previous post no non-moslem is to criticize anything islamic per sharia laws and moslems expect us, or no - demand us - is better written, to obey their laws. Or else there are always violent jihadists to make sure we do via terror, lawfare jihad, etc.

    Bibles are burned in the Middle East, they are banned in Saudi Arabia as are many outward signs of anyone's religion, and Jews are banned. Jews have been driven out of middle Eastern countries as the moslems are trying to drive them out of Israel - or demanding that they give up more and more land while giving nothing, no PERMANENT promise of peace. Because peace in islam means we either accept the call to islam (da'wa), or accept subjugation or death. Subjugation is only an option given selected groups of people and even that is precarious and without freedoms or rights.

    A hudna is what is called a cease fire, or a 'peace treaty'. It is not to last longer than 10 years and is to be broken as soon as the jihadists are rearmed and/or regrouped. This is what most people do not understand about all the concessions that Israel has made while the moslems have given nothing except violence in return.

    Just today Jewish children in a camp were targets of moslem jihadists. While this author bashes a man who wanted to burn a koran - not ban them - but symbolically burn one to show contempt for what is behind the violence, this author does nothing to change what causes that violence. Instead he is what sharia calls waging jihad by the pen.

    Jihad, in sharia laws (o9) is 'to war against the non-moslems'. If enough moslems are waging the violent jihad then the others are excused from being violent and can wage it via the pen, word, and wealth (zakat - or moslem charity). Yes folks, at least 1/8th of it is REQUIRED to go to their violent jihadists. And some of it can go to those waging the stealth jihad (by the pen and word) such as anyone associated with the Muslim Brotherhood, etc.

    The Holy Land Foundation Trial gave us a glimpse into that when the FBI unclassified the Brotherhood's docs outlining their stealth jihad in our country. Some of their groups are the MSA/MSU, ISNA, ICNA, NAIT, MPAC, CAIR, etc etc etc - basically all moslem groups have been brought under the Brotherhood's 'umbrella' and there are too many to list. And the Brotherhood's military wing includes Hamas, Al Qaeda, Jamaat al Islamaaya, Abu Sayaff, etc etc etc (too many to list too).

    One group that I want to mention that also has a pact with the Brotherhood are the Wahabbists.

    This is more of what the history of islam is in our country. Basically a jihad against us. And all the labels is either just a smoke screen (eg: moderate, extremist, peaceful, radical), or for bashing (islamophobe, racist, hater, etc). Islam labels moslems as either believers or hypocrites. Hypocrites are those who, according to sharia, get the same things done to them as unbelievers - they are bad moslems. A good way to tell is if that moslem, or former moslem, has a death fatwa on their heads.

    The Sharia Terror Report just released: http://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.org/upload/wysiwyg/article%20pdfs/Shariah%20-%20The%20Threat%20to%20America%20(Team%20B%20Report)%2009142010.pdf

     
  • Sharon Wilders posted at 8:44 am on Mon, Sep 20, 2010.

    Sharon Wilders Posts: 2

    #1. moslems do not enslave other moslems. The slave traders went to Africa and gathered up Africans that were not reverted to islam. The author of this article is trying to pull the wool over everyone's eyes because he assumes we have no idea what sharia laws (based directly on the koran and sunnah) says.

    #2. The first foreign war we fought was with moslems. Just as they are pirating around the African, European, and Asian coastlines centuries ago - they are doing it today. They were called the Barbary Pirates and Jefferson figured them out by cracking open islam's text and found out what moslems were about - killing, stealing, lying, torture, etc. I would recommend that everyone get acquainted with sharia laws because moslems will be trying to deceive us (taqiyya - islam's religious deception that they consider a good deed) because their primary goal is to do da'wa (the call to islam).

    #3 Who cares if anyone has memorized the koran?! What they do not do is question it because sharia laws say that no one is to question anything islam, AND that no non-moslem is to criticize islam or else we should be killed. (this is why the death threats against cartoonists, or one cartoonist in America had to go under the FBI protection and change her identity completely, or why a Jihadist tried to blow up Times Square because of the South Park cartoonist). And no moslem works to stop the violence, or the cause behind it (the koran, sharia laws, etc). They do nothing for the victims of their jihadists. Instead all we get is twisted history, cries of victimhood, and other nonsense.
    Now I am sure I will be called names for knowing islam and educating others about islam. The usual names are islamophobe, hater, racist (islam is not a race but they call people who know islam that to try to dissuade them from telling others the truth about islam), etc.

    Brian Dockter has an excellent series of comments which are more accurate than this author's article puts forward. What this author is trying to do is twist history to put islam in a better light than what it really is about.

    This article is nothing but taqiyya.

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 7:59 am on Mon, Sep 20, 2010.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2830

    http://www.meforum.org/2534/moderate-islam-western-ally-myth


    Moderate Islam: Western Ally or Western Myth?
    A Debate

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 7:29 am on Mon, Sep 20, 2010.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2830

    http://actwestnashville.com/?p=800


    Taqiya and Duality are two of the most important concepts for all unbelievers, kafirs, to understand about the doctrine of Islam and the inconceivably horrible atrocities that are commited in its name.

    The concept of duality is foundationally important to understanding Islam. Islam has a dual code of ethics and logic. This is diametrically opposed to our unitary logic. In unitary logic, which is the logic of the West, in a scenario of a contradiction only one side of the contradiction can be true. So, in symbolic logic, you would say that A and NOT A are contradictory and both cannot be true; either A is true or NOT A is true; both cannot be true.

    This is unitary logic. Unitary logic is the foundation of the scientific method and rational thinking. This is not however the logic of political Islam.

    Islamic logic is dualistic. In symbolic logic, you would illustrate duality by saying that both A and its opposite, NOT A, are both TRUE. This is impossible in a unitary logic understanding of reality. It is also contrary to the fundamentals of reason and science.

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 7:34 pm on Sat, Sep 18, 2010.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2830


    http://www.politicalislam.com/blog/the-study-of-political-islam-2/

    Warner: The term “human being” has no meaning inside of Islam. There is no such thing as humanity, only the duality of the believer and unbeliever. Look at the ethical statements found in the Hadith. A Muslim should not lie, cheat, kill or steal from other Muslims. But a Muslim may lie, deceive or kill an unbeliever if it advances Islam.

    There is no such thing as a universal statement of ethics in Islam. Muslims are to be treated one way and unbelievers another way. The closest Islam comes to a universal statement of ethics is that the entire world must submit to Islam. After Mohammed became a prophet, he never treated an unbeliever the same as a Muslim. Islam denies the truth of the Golden Rule.

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 7:29 pm on Sat, Sep 18, 2010.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2830

    http://www.politicalislam.com/blog/the-study-of-political-islam-2/


    All of Western logic is based upon the law of contradiction—if two things contradict, then at least one of them is false. But Islamic logic is dualistic; two things can contradict each other and both are true.

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 7:15 pm on Sat, Sep 18, 2010.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2830

    And I reiterate from the article. This is important to note:


    "The political violence of the Koran is eternal and universal. The political violence of the Bible was for that particular historical time and place. This is the vast difference between Islam and other ideologies. The violence remains a constant threat to all non-Islamic cultures, now and into the future. Islam is not analogous to Christianity and Judaism in any practical way. Beyond the one-god doctrine, Islam is unique unto itself. "

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 7:13 pm on Sat, Sep 18, 2010.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2830

    It is time for so-called intellectuals to get down to the basics of judging Islam by its actual doctrine, not making lame analogies that are sophomoric assertions. Fact-based reasoning should replace fantasies that are based upon political correctness and multiculturalism.

    Bill Warner,
    Director, Center for the Study of Political Islam

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 7:13 pm on Sat, Sep 18, 2010.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2830

    When we count the magnitude of words devoted to political violence, we have 327,547 words in the Trilogy and 34,039 words in the Hebrew Bible . The Trilogy has 9.6 times as much wordage devoted to political violence as the Hebrew Bible.

    The real problem goes far beyond the quantitative measurement of ten times as much violent material; there is the qualitative measurement. The political violence of the Koran is eternal and universal. The political violence of the Bible was for that particular historical time and place. This is the vast difference between Islam and other ideologies. The violence remains a constant threat to all non-Islamic cultures, now and into the future. Islam is not analogous to Christianity and Judaism in any practical way. Beyond the one-god doctrine, Islam is unique unto itself.

    Another measurement of the difference between the violence found in the Judeo/Christian texts as opposed to that of Islam is found in the use of fear of violence against artists, critics and intellectuals. What artist, critic or intellectual ever feels a twinge of fear if condemning anything Christian or Jewish? However, look at the examples of the violent political threats and murders of Salman Rushdie, Theo van Gogh, Pim Fortuyn, Kurt Westergaard of the Danish Mohammed cartoons, and many others. What artist, critic or intellectual has not had a twinge of fear about Islam when it comes to free expression? The political difference in the response to the two different doctrines is enormous. The political fruit from the two trees is as different as night and day. cont.

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 7:10 pm on Sat, Sep 18, 2010.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2830

    It turns out that jihad occurs in large proportion in all three texts. Here is a chart about the results:

    It is very significant that the Sira devotes 67% of its text to jihad. Mohammed averaged an event of violence every 6 weeks for the last 9 years of his life. Jihad was what made Mohammed successful. Here is a chart of the growth of Islam.

    Basically, when Mohammed was a preacher of religion, Islam grew at the rate of 10 new Muslims per year. But when he turned to jihad, Islam grew at an average rate of 10,000 per year. All of the details of how to wage jihad are recorded in great detail. The Koran gives the great vision of jihad—world conquest by the political process. The Sira is a strategic manual and the Hadith is a tactical manual of jihad.

    Now let’s go to the Hebrew Bible. When we count all of the political violence, we find that 5.6% of the text is devoted to it. There is no admonition towards political violence in the New Testament. cont.

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 7:09 pm on Sat, Sep 18, 2010.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2830

    The first item is to define violence. The only violence that matters to someone outside of either Islam or Christianity or Judaism is what they do to the “other”, political violence. Cain killing Abel is not political violence. Political violence is not killing a lamb for a meal or making an animal sacrifice. Note, however, a vegan or a PETA member considers both of these actions to be violent, but it is not violence against them.

    The next item is to compare the doctrines both quantitatively and qualitatively. The political violence of the Koran is called “fighting in Allah’s cause”, or jihad.

    We must do more than measure the jihad in the Koran. Islam has three sacred texts: Koran, Sira and Hadith, the Islamic Trilogy. The Sira is Mohammed’s biography. The Hadith are his traditions—what he did and said. Sira and Hadith form the Sunna, the perfect pattern of all Islamic behavior.

    The Koran is the smallest of the three books, the Trilogy. It is only 16% of the Trilogy text . This means that the Sunna is 84% of the word content of Islam’s sacred texts. This statistic alone has large implications. Most of the Islamic doctrine is about Mohammed, not Allah. The Koran says 91 different times that Mohammed is the perfect pattern of life. It is much more important to know Mohammed than the Koran. This is very good news. It is easy to understand a biography about a man. To know Islam, know Mohammed. cont.

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 7:09 pm on Sat, Sep 18, 2010.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2830

    http://www.politicalislam.com/blog/the-political-violence-of-the-bible-and-the-koran/


    The Political Violence of the Bible and the Koran

    One of the most frequently used arguments heard in the defense of Islam is that the Bible is just as violent as the Koran. The logic goes like this. If the Koran is no more violent than the Bible, then why should we worry about Islam? This argument is that Islam is the same as Christianity and Judaism. This is false, but this analogy is very popular, since it allows someone who knows nothing about the actual doctrine of Islam to talk about it. “See, Islam is like Christianity, Christians are just as violent as Muslims.” If this is true, then you don’t have to learn anything about the actual Islamic doctrine.

    However, this is not a theological argument. It is a political one. This argument is not about what goes on in a house of worship, but what goes on the in the marketplace of ideas.

    Now, is the doctrine of Islam more violent than the Bible? There is only one way to prove or disprove the comparison and that is to measure the differences in violence in the Koran and the Bible. cont.

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 7:05 pm on Sat, Sep 18, 2010.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2830

    Yes,

    The very things that anger and frustrate us about Islam are also the sentiments of many Muslims around the world. And for this reason many are converting to Christianity.. Not that I want to see Islam disappear. I would prefer to see it more like the rest of the religions in the world. Tolerant and with a motivation to coexist with other religions and not demand other religions be subservient to them.

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 6:49 pm on Sat, Sep 18, 2010.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2830

    Darrell and Jerome:

    We have a perfect chance of taking Taj to task. It seems to me so many people
    choose the road of Rational Ignorance of Islam. Obviously us three don't.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 5:18 pm on Sat, Sep 18, 2010.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Brian... What's wrong Darrell and Jerome: Your close proximity to Muslims got you intimidated
    that you won't speak out?This touchy feelly thing Darrell and Jerome have going is just too much for me. Perhaps we discuss a solution to the ongoing problem


    Brian.... Khun su-phaap.& mi nii rot-chaat... Id say it in English, but ....
    Ive said what I wanted to say in earlier blogs as it relates to this article....
    Ive expressed my concerns and confronted others.... I decided to have a change of pace and discuss something important... a persons heart and soul.... if you think that is touchy feely, that is your problem, not mine.

     
  • Jerome Kinderman posted at 5:16 pm on Sat, Sep 18, 2010.

    Jerome R Kinderman Posts: 2352

    I'm sorry you feel that way Mr. Dockter. Of course you are entitled to your opinion. However, what I was attempting to say (and do) has nothing to do with Islam. Rather it has everything to do with Christianity - what I believe to be a peaceful and loving faith; and the only path to God.

    I've made it clear during other discussions that based upon what I know of Islam and its holy book, the Koran runs counter to the basic tenets of what Christ would have us do. You ask if I am so intimidated by Islam that I won't speak out. What would you have me do, Mr. Dockter, scream and shout and call them names? What good would that do? I can think of nothing more persuasive than to provide others an alternative to what I believe to be the antithesis of the teachings of my Lord and Savior. I'm sorry if you failed to understand that from what I tried to convey.

    During other conversations I've revealed how I feel about the stonings and other things Muslims believe to be acceptable in furtherance of their faith. I believe my tone and behavior here was absolutely necessary - after all, isn't the possibility of saving just one soul worth it? I'm not saying that anyone was persuaded by my words here to turn to Christ; but just how many do you think may have been dissuaded by not only what you've written about Islam, but your mocking of two individuals merely having a decent conversation?

    Perhaps that's something you should think about before permitting your knuckles to turn white while pounding on your keyboard in anger.

    You disappoint me, Mr. Dockter.

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 4:46 pm on Sat, Sep 18, 2010.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2830

    The House of Peace, where Islam is the recognized religion, and the House of War, where Islam is fighting to become the recognized religion, and because Islam teaches that Allah may change his mind at any time, for Muslims, there is no stable and universal moral code. When you eliminate reason as a guide in human thinking, force is the only thing that determines truth. For that reason, in the House of War, anything goes.

    In regard to the Park51 mosque, both critics and supporters are getting the context wrong. They're framing the debate as if it were a New York or American affair -- a local dispute over land use. This is dangerously naive. The context isn't New York in the year 2010, but the whole world since the seventh century. If you ignore that, you miss the entire point, and are reduced to explaining the protests as examples of bigotry or religious intolerance.
    1

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 4:45 pm on Sat, Sep 18, 2010.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2830

    While the years have passed and the names of the armies and countries have changed, Islam's war against the rest of us continues at full speed. There isn't a day that goes by without a new terrorist attack carried out by a Muslim militant. Women are stoned in Afghanistan because they had the nerve to be raped... Children are beaten to death and strung up in Pakistan, because they were suspected of theft... Non-Muslims living in Muslim countries are in constant fear of kidnapping and murder... It's even happening here. In Buffalo, New York, a Muslim-American television executive who attempted to use his station to improve U.S public opinion about Muslims later beheaded his wife after she filed for divorce. Of the roughly 25 wars currently ongoing, 21 involve Muslim countries. Put differently, Islam is connected to 80% of the planet's armed conflicts, while making up only 20% of its population. There's a reason for that.

    In Islam the world exists in two Houses. cont.

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 4:44 pm on Sat, Sep 18, 2010.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2830

    Islam emerged from what is modern day Saudi Arabia in the 7th century, and never
    Good article, John Kindseth

    http://townhall.com/columnists/ArmstrongWilliams/2010/09/14/the_endless_wars_of_islam

    looked back. Muslim armies swept across North Africa and invaded Catholic Spain, destroying or converting the Christian communities along the way. They turned churches into mosques, and made Islam the official religion. Muslim armies also took over the Holy Land, destroyed the last non-Islamic Persian empire, and moved into Asia Minor (modern day Turkey). By the 16th century, Islam had destroyed the Christian Byzantine Empire, had taken over Constantinople, and had turned the Hagia Sophia -- the most beautiful church in Christendom -- into a mosque. A century later, Muslim armies were outside the gates of Vienna. cont.

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 4:40 pm on Sat, Sep 18, 2010.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2830

    I suppose I'll interject here. This touchy feelly thing Darrell and Jerome have going is just too much for me. Perhaps we discuss a solution to the ongoing problem
    with Islam wanting all Non-Muslims to be subservient to Islam and pay a dhimmi tax.
    What's wrong Darrell and Jerome: Your close proximity to Muslims got you intimidated
    that you won't speak out?

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 4:51 pm on Fri, Sep 17, 2010.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Jerome... just plant seeds of thought... leave it to god to see to it that it grows...
    There are many times that I acted on ideas and thoughts years after the planting... Most people who plant seeds never see the results... but at least you take the time and effort to do the right thing, and sometimes it grows even if you are not there to see it. If all you do is plant seeds, you cannot be responsible for the outcome, you do not have that kind of power unless your name is dog spelled backwards (smile)

     
  • Jerome Kinderman posted at 9:27 am on Fri, Sep 17, 2010.

    Jerome R Kinderman Posts: 2352

    Mr. Baumbach, as an unabashed Christian I am very concerned about how I might influence others by my words and behavior. Clearly, there are those who believe Christians to be hateful, bigoted, intolerant and just plain nasty. During my 35 years following Christ, I've found the opposite to be true; of course there are exceptions to folks who believe all sorts of things.

    Sadly, I have never had the joy of sitting with someone who after hearing and learning about what God offers through his Son Jesus actually make the decision right then and there to accept the gift. Typically, they might politely listen (or not) but then go on their way without deciding or maybe never again giving the choice a second thought. But then again, what if something that I might have said or the way I said it or the way I behaved actually nudged them off of the fence to everlasting life in Heaven? WOW! Yet I may never know of such a thing until I one day face the Lord to discuss what I've done down here.

    On the other hand, what if I had been so overly-aggressive or for whatever reason force someone the other way through negative behavior or writing, then that would represent the ultimate failure for me - and for Christ.

    Even through my opinions offered here regarding things not spiritual, I am very careful as to how I come across. Oh, I’m often spirited – that’s for sure – but I always try to be respectful of my opponents, even (and especially) when they don’t return the courtesy.

    There is nothing more important in my life than my relationship with God – and I DO mean nothing. With Christ as my focus, all of my other relationships (family, friends, acquaintances) can only be strengthened, not hurt. Do I make mistakes? Absolutely. After all, even with the promise of everlasting life with God, I’m still a sinner. I just pray that at least once I’ve helped someone to make what I know to be the right decision. And it would literally destroy me if I ever learned that I was instrumental in turning someone away from Him.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 10:14 pm on Thu, Sep 16, 2010.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Jerome, I have always felt that no one can influence the fate of others ultimate destiny in the after life. I am impressed with anyone who makes decisions based on the welfare of others like you. I think if you do what you think is right, there is not much more you can do. You took action based on your judgment in doing what was right. As much as I disagree with Joanne’s positions and dislike her personality, I do respect and admire her for doing what she thinks is right...which is to counter positions she thinks are wrong...

     
  • Jerome Kinderman posted at 6:41 pm on Thu, Sep 16, 2010.

    Jerome R Kinderman Posts: 2352

    Mr. Baumbach, I had thought about that when I brought it to her attention, but she specifically stated that she, "...was born a Christian and raised as such." I had no idea what she meant by that statement. I suppose I could have let it go at that, but there I was stuck between what would be most expedient for me and what I should do.

    First, if I hadn't made the correction, could someone who had not actually become a Christian read what she wrote and depended upon that erroneous information to believe that they were in fact "saved?" If so, could that someone's soul be in dire straits because of my lack of courage to say something? Equally important, what if Ms. Bobin herself actually believes she's fulfilled the requirements of becoming a Christian simply by being born into a Christian family? Same challenge with possibly the same outcome.

    I couldn't take that risk.

    And thank you again for your kind words.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 5:26 pm on Thu, Sep 16, 2010.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Jerome, maybe Joanne meant she was born into a family who practiced christian teachings. You articulated this topic well... thank you.

     
  • Jerome Kinderman posted at 4:16 pm on Thu, Sep 16, 2010.

    Jerome R Kinderman Posts: 2352

    Ms. Bobin, against my better judgment, I’ll comment on your most recent posting. And here's where you've made a significant error - no one is "born" a Christian. Jesus was also not a “Christian,” he was a Jew. Becoming a follower of Christ is a choice that we are all entitled to make once we understand and accept what that actually means. While I agree with you regarding the trappings of organized religion, the basic foundation of what we call Christianity is the understanding that ALL are sinners and only through acceptance of Jesus as the Son of God who was sent to Earth to save men (not condemn us) and that his death was necessary so that ALL men might have eternal life beyond the miniscule time we spend here.

    As far as wars or conflicts, these weren't caused by God or Jesus - but by the innately sinful nature of mankind.

    Once these things are understood and accepted, it is then our responsibility to learn as much as we can about the nature of God and His Son through the teachings of the Bible. Only recently have I become better informed as to how we've arrived at this point in time known as the "Age (or Covenant) of Grace." There have been many other covenants and their accompanying dispensations (for the lack of a better word, "deals") between God and man (Edenic, Adamic, Noahic, Mosaic, etc.) that once understood, allow us to better understand what has happened and what is required of us.

    The salvation part is relative simple - the attempt to live as Christ-like a life as possible is where it begins to get hard.

    Of course, all of these things are matters of faith. But there is plenty of proof that Jesus did walk the Earth, perform miracles and become the most significant man to ever inhabit this planet. No one has ever had such an influence on mankind than He. While some may consider him a prophet or a good teacher, I (and millions of others like me) understand Him to be much more than that.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 4:02 pm on Thu, Sep 16, 2010.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Joanne Bobin posted at 3:00 pm on Thu, Sep 16, 2010...

    Good points! I enjoyed reading… Interesting to contemplate your thoughts here.

    Can you please expand and make clearer...
    1). trappings of organized religion... what are trapping of religion to you?
    2).Unfortunately, religion is often used as an excuse for war... which wars are you referring to that do not involve Islam? Are you talking about the last 200 years or in history?

     
  • Joanne Bobin posted at 3:00 pm on Thu, Sep 16, 2010.

    Joanne Bobin Posts: 4488

    Mr. Kinderman: I was born a Christian and raised as such, however I do not accept all of the trappings of organized religion, especially those that are extreme as are many sects of Christianity, Islam, Judaism, etc. However, I do believe that religion, for "right thinking people," can lead to many good things. Unfortunately, religion is often used as an excuse for war, conflict, or whatever one wants to call it. It should rightfully be criticized for those reasons, but I fear that there will never be a resolution to that here on earth, and one must wonder what is going on above, if it turns out that all believers, whether in God or Jesus Christ or whatever, are right about heaven.

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 8:27 am on Thu, Sep 16, 2010.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2830

    And those Christian organizations spreading the word of God in Africa that has convinced many Muslims to convert to Christianity must chap her hyde too.

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 8:15 am on Thu, Sep 16, 2010.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2830

    If Joanne can give us an example of something Radical Christians do that is extreme as Radical Muslims then I'd be willing to here her out. Perhaps she
    feels the occasional situations she's had at church where all these Radicals
    want to do is pray for her or spend time rerading the Bible with her is just too much for her she should become Muslim and experience the relief that ONLY Radical Christians chap her hyde.

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 8:07 am on Thu, Sep 16, 2010.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2830

    Joanne wrote:

    Granted, the belief that Jesus Christ is the only path to God is one of the fundamental tenets of Christianity - it is only a belief and no one can PROVE that belief. It is simply a matter of faith, which is the right of all who profess to the Christian philosophy to proclaim. You speak as if this was a scientific fact. Just as you are so convinced that this is truth, so are followers of other religions that their BELIEFS are the right ones.

    - I see Joanne still wants to switch the conversation to the issue of her sentiments about Christianity. She seems reluctant to concede that the issue of Radical Muslims
    running around chopping people's heads off because they won't convert to Islam is
    far more important to discuss than anything Radical Christians currenty do to coerce people to become Christian.

     
  • Joe Baxter posted at 8:03 am on Thu, Sep 16, 2010.

    Joe Baxter Posts: 1846

    Mr. Khan, reading your story reminds me of the old adage "practice what you preach". If you want world tolerance towards Islam, then Islam has to practice world tolerance of other religions. Burning Christian bibles and persecuting Christians is OK for Islamics, but not Ok for Christians to but the quran and persecute islamiics. What happened to the "Do unto others" way of life?

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 5:48 am on Thu, Sep 16, 2010.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Jerome, maybe if you restricted religious comments to sharing principles and philosophies that result from your faith without making any attempt to persuade or change someone’s perspective would be acceptable... I understand that religious debate or anything challenging may be better in another forum, but gentle educational information should be well received... either way, I enjoy you and others thoughts, even Joanne at times.

     
  • Jerome Kinderman posted at 9:59 pm on Wed, Sep 15, 2010.

    Jerome R Kinderman Posts: 2352

    I'm sorry Mr. Baumbach, but my experience in this regard has only resulted with trouble. One of the things that I will absolutely not permit myself to do is to dissuade anyone from considering finding salvation through Jesus. While I am usually up for a good and lively debate over almost any other subject, I won't run the risk with this.

    Sadly, my ability to discern when someone is being sincere in their desire to learn more insofar as spiritual matters are concerned has not been altogether successful online. As you know I do respect you and what you offer here. As an agnostic, if you are truly interested in discovering more (which I believe you are), then I would suggest seeking out someone with whom you can converse eye-to-eye. There's way too much room for error on an anonymous blog; and that is what this still is despite the requirement that we post under our true names.

    Thanks.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 7:46 pm on Wed, Sep 15, 2010.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    jerome, as an agnostic person, I actually enjoy reading what you and Joanne write as it relates to faith, church, and religion... I find it heart felt and informative... I hope you and Joanne do choose to express yourself as it is educational.

     
  • Jerome Kinderman posted at 3:45 pm on Wed, Sep 15, 2010.

    Jerome R Kinderman Posts: 2352

    Ms. Bobin, I hope you will forgive me for not engaging in matters of faith any more than I already have here. In the past I've attempted to explain the tenets of Christanity and I've learned that on a forum such as this, it was a futile exercise. I won't waste your or my time again. Nevertheless, I stand by my comments in this regard as posted at 9:52 p.m. on Tuesday, Septempter 14, 2010.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 3:45 pm on Wed, Sep 15, 2010.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Kevin Paglia posted at 9:21 am on Wed, Sep 15, 2010...Twistilings (can I coin that term, meaning people who twist things deliberately?).

    Kevin, since it happens so often, great idea... will save time and energy...Twistilings

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 3:43 pm on Wed, Sep 15, 2010.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Joanne...Im still waiting... the writer did this... Do you agree that he should have made this association... or not... why?

    Taj equated Genghis Khan burning all books and Nazis wearing swastikas to the actions of Mr Jones... I think it is is ludicrous and disingenuous

     
  • Joanne Bobin posted at 11:27 am on Wed, Sep 15, 2010.

    Joanne Bobin Posts: 4488

    Mr. Kinderman: It is well established that fundamentalist Christians (most prominently) are not "tolerant" of other religions. They are "anti" other religions as is the "pastor" in Florida.

    What other religion proselytizes around the world trying to convert everyone? Why have wars been fought, crusades been launched, and populations subjagated in order to force Christianity on others? Christians even fight each other to promote their particular brand of Christianity. My son attended a Lutheran school here in Lodi for one year and the very first thing he learned was that Catholics and Mormons are not Christians. What kind of "right thinking" Christian teaches that?

    Granted, the belief that Jesus Christ is the only path to God is one of the fundamental tenets of Christianity - it is only a belief and no one can PROVE that belief. It is simply a matter of faith, which is the right of all who profess to the Christian philosophy to proclaim. You speak as if this was a scientific fact. Just as you are so convinced that this is truth, so are followers of other religions that their BELIEFS are the right ones.

     
  • Kevin Paglia posted at 9:21 am on Wed, Sep 15, 2010.

    Kevin Paglia Posts: 2023

    Brian, that was how I took your statements, but we all know how some here like to twist things we say into things we didn't say. Not that we should censor what we say to avoid the Twistilings (can I coin that term, meaning people who twist things deliberately?). I just thought I would throw out my comments before they had a chance so they couldn't.

    Incidentally, slavery is still big (relatively speaking) in Asian countries as well. And it is still going on here in the US by good ol' American people http://berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2004/09/23_16691.shtml. It may not be state sanctioned as in some other countries, but we still have a problem with it here.

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 8:11 am on Wed, Sep 15, 2010.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2830

    I'm not too sure Taj wants mainstream America to know too much about Islam. Unless he doesn't believe so much of the truth about Islam should remain shrouded in secrecy.

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 8:04 am on Wed, Sep 15, 2010.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2830

    Taj wrote:

    Perhaps Rev. Jones does not know that even if he collected all the available copies of the Quran and burned them, he cannot wipe out the teaching of the Quran.

    -There is much in the Koran that needs to be revised. Unlike Muslims in Islamic
    countries who seize Bibles on a regular basis to be destroyed, most other religions
    don't destroy other religions holy books or murder people because their God was mocked in a cartoon.

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 7:55 am on Wed, Sep 15, 2010.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2830

    Kevin,

    I was trying to make a point about how it was the Black Muslims in Africa who sold the slaves to the Americans. Incidently, slavery is still common in many Islamic countries.

     
  • Kevin Paglia posted at 10:57 pm on Tue, Sep 14, 2010.

    Kevin Paglia Posts: 2023

    Brian, I don't think it was how you meant it but your statements could be interpreted (especially by those who seem to enjoy misinterpreting statements) as saying that slavery in the US was a good thing. Slavery is never, was never a good thing.

     
  • Jerome Kinderman posted at 9:52 pm on Tue, Sep 14, 2010.

    Jerome R Kinderman Posts: 2352

    Ms. Bobin stated, “Which, by extension, makes him anti every other religion that is not Christianity.”

    How many Christians do you know who are actually “pro” any other religion? If you mean they are tolerant of others believing as they choose, I believe all level-headed Christians would support that; we cannot force anyone to believe in anything. But if you’re suggesting that Christians should actually support or otherwise encourage others to believe in anything other than salvation through Jesus Christ, then that would expose a fundamental problem with that individual’s understanding of what it actually means to be a Christian.

    As Christians, we do not believe in “all religions leading to God” as I’ve heard of many, especially Hollywood elites. While we in no way want anyone to be condemned and separated from God, there is only one way to avoid that eventuality – through believing in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. We believe there is no other way.

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 9:33 pm on Tue, Sep 14, 2010.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2830

    Taj wrote:

    The latest estimates are that 30 percent of the slaves brought to the U.S. were Muslims.

    And they were puchased from the Muslim hierarchy in Africa where they expierenced
    not too good living conditions. To this day many of the descendants of slaves still remeber hearing stories of these slaves expressing their thankfulness for the Americans who freed them from ruthless imprisonment of the Muslim Hierarchy in Africa

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 9:05 pm on Tue, Sep 14, 2010.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    To equate what he did and the motive behind it to Genghis Khan burning all books and Nazis wearing swastikasis ludicrous and disingenuous
    joanne... this was my main point... please respond to issue instead of missing the point....

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 9:00 pm on Tue, Sep 14, 2010.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    I can imagine Joanne on Noah’s ark after 40 days and 40 nights where the earth flooded , comes out from inside the ark and looks at all the water with no land in sight... her partner looks out and says... boy was that a rain storm... Joanne indignantly looks at her man and says... Where in the world did you get the idea that it rained…

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 8:52 pm on Tue, Sep 14, 2010.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Because CNN, Fox, MSNBC, and just about every media outlet reported that Mr Jones was going to burn Korans on 9/11 and broadcasts linked the two events together, and since all the news organizations were going to cover the event on 9/11, and since many news reporters talked about the relationship between this person and 9/11 and burning the Koran, and since Jones stated he would not burn Korans due to a link to the Mosque in question, and since the FBI talked about Jones burning the Korans on 9/11 which was a national security concern, and since he has not burned Korans prior to 9/ 11 and has no plans to burn Korans in the future… all this information … One might conclude there is a connection.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 8:48 pm on Tue, Sep 14, 2010.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Where in the world did Ms jobin get the idea that Darrell Baumbach said "Pastor" Jones was protesting the so-called 9/11 mosque and the 3000 casualties of the TERRORIST attacks on the WTC, Pentagon and flight 93?
    Joanne... please take the time to read what I state... you will soon be setting a record in misreading and misunderstanding simple blogs at LNS...

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 8:45 pm on Tue, Sep 14, 2010.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2830

    http://hypocrisy.com/2010/08/31/nyc-mosque-vs-thomas-jefferson/


    The book, Cruel and Usual Punishment by Nonie Darwish is a fascinating insider’s look at the Islam religion, Sharia laws and how they came into being. But it was the author’s last chapter regarding America which I found to be both compelling and chilling.

    You can almost hear the desperation in Ms. Darwish’s voice as she tries to convince the reader that Islam is not a religion of peace. For example, she states that there are 35,213 references in the Koran, Sharia laws and various Muslim scriptures basically advocating killing non-believers. Yes, the Old Testament is also rather bloodthirsty in places however the whole premise to Christianity is Jesus’ messages in the New Testament. He repudiated the Old Testament and taught that in the face of violence we should turn the other cheek and He gave us the Golden Rule. Islam, on the other hand, is the exact opposite. In the early parts of the Koran Mohammed was respectful of the “People of the Book” meaning Jews and Christians. As both Muslims and Jews were desert tribal people back then there was a natural affinity that is until Jewish tribes declined Mohammad’s “request” that they convert and join his tribe. Their refusal triggered a hatred of all Jews continuing to this day. From that point forward the Koran gets bloodier and bloodier in its suggested treatment of all infidels and apostates.

    For Islam, this hatred of Jews has remained unchanged in the past 1400+ years. One example in Darwish’s book is that in 2005 the British House of Commons passed a bill aimed at curbing religious hatred. A delegation of prominent Muslims applied to have Islam exempt from the bill since followers of Mohammed must humiliate, hate, distrust, deceive and kill Christians and Jews. They therefore knew that readings from the Koran would be hate crimes under the new law as hatred of non-believers continues to be a central doctrine of Islamic scriptures. The scary part is that anti-Semitism is facing resurgence particularly in Europe which has experienced a large influx of conservative Muslims.


     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 8:38 pm on Tue, Sep 14, 2010.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2830

    Taj,

    Funny you would bring up America's tolerance for all religions. Does this mean you
    are considering condemning all the Islamic countries that aren't tolerant of any religion but Islam? Or are you going to opt out on this because you believe it is U.S. foreign policy to blame for the intolerances of these countries? What else do you feel Islam should not be held accountable for?

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 8:28 pm on Tue, Sep 14, 2010.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2830

    Next thing Taj Khan will tell us is he believes the persecution of Christians in Egypt,
    Iraq, Indonesia, and malasya is somehow attributed to U.S. foreign policy.

    Taj,
    If Muslims revere Mary, Jesus, Moses, John, etc. then why are Christians, along with all the other Non-Muslim religions, being subjugated by Islam all over the world? And why is it almost a death sentence for someone to even speak of Christianity in Saudi Arabia and other Islamic countries?

    And Joanne,
    Can you give us an example of an Islamic country or the now many countries overrun by Muslims in Europe where Islam is tolerant of other religions? And perhaps you could give us your take on what Turkey (the birthplace of Christianity) has done to deserve the almost complete annihilation of anything giving refetrence to
    Christianity by the now dominant Muslim religion? There is word that the last Eastern Orhodox Monestary in Turkey may become a thing of the past. Not that you Taj care.

     
  • Joanne Bobin posted at 7:43 pm on Tue, Sep 14, 2010.

    Joanne Bobin Posts: 4488

    Where in the world did Mr. Baumbach get the idea that "Pastor" Jones was protesting the so-called 9/11 mosque and the 3000 casualties of the TERRORIST attacks on the WTC, Pentagon and flight 93?

    When pressed by the media, Jones said he was burning the Quran because it was anti-Christian because Muslims did not acknowledge Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. Which, by extension, makes him anti every other religion that is not Christianity.

    Jones only latched on to the 9/11 mosque coattails when he needed an out for cancelling his book burning fiesta and attempting to save face - fat chance BTW!

    Mr. Baumbach's attempt to legitimize this bigoted kook who, thankfully, only has 60 followers, is shameful.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 3:17 pm on Tue, Sep 14, 2010.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Rev. Jones reminds us of the wild and barbaric marauding hordes of Genghis Khan when they ran over Baghdad in the 11th century and burned all the books, including copies of the Quran, they could find. At the time there were one million titles published in Iraq — 600,000...Rev. Jones also reminds us of the Nazis wearing swastikas, who burned thousands of books ...

    I was interested in your article until you mischaracterized what happened. Mr. Jones, who I think was misguided and should not have threatened to burn the Quran, was responding to one particular situation in which 3000 people died. He was trying to draw attention only to one particular Mosque being built at one particular location. To equate what he did and the motive behind it to Genghis Khan burning all books and Nazis wearing swastikasis ludicrous and disingenuous. What is your motive in this Mr. Khan? Is it your desire to fan the flames of hatred? I think you are slapping the face of all who honestly are concerned about 9/11 and who is responsible for it and fear it may happen again. No person I know approved of Mr. Jones actions, but you are not much better.

     
  • John Kindseth posted at 1:43 pm on Tue, Sep 14, 2010.

    John Kindseth Posts: 243

    http://spectator.org/archives/2010/09/13/9-119

     
  • John Kindseth posted at 11:34 am on Tue, Sep 14, 2010.

    John Kindseth Posts: 243

    http://townhall.com/columnists/ArmstrongWilliams/2010/09/14/the_endless_wars_of_islam

     

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