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Leadership prayer breakfast addresses challenges to Christianity

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Posted: Thursday, September 24, 2009 10:00 pm

Lodi has participated in four decades of leadership prayer breakfasts, but Thursday's annual meeting of Christian community leaders had more of a political overtone.

Lodi City Councilman Bob Johnson urged the crowd of about 100 people to make their opinions known at next Wednesday's special meeting to retain the city's tradition of invocations at the beginning of council meetings.

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70 comments:

  • posted at 7:36 am on Fri, Oct 2, 2009.

    Posts:

    I got served?I must have dozed through it.Cog, it does no good to keep displaying your drug-addled lies; you either can't, or won't, see it. You are clearly, though, always willing to expand the lie.

     
  • posted at 5:03 am on Fri, Oct 2, 2009.

    Posts:

    Billy, you call that a rebuttal? LOL! That was embarrassing. You got served and all you got left is name calling. Pathetic!

     
  • posted at 10:07 am on Thu, Oct 1, 2009.

    Posts:

    How dumb can I be? Why, are you trying to corner the market?I can tell you I’m dumb enough to keep giving you, a sanctimonious self-proclaimed born-again Christian, more chances to stop lying, so I guess I’m pretty dumb, huh?You, who insists the Republican Party and Christianity are one and the same, apparently can’t imagine a religion other than either Republicanism or Christianity. To you, ONLY Christians are religious and those who are religious are exclusively Christians.

     
  • posted at 7:42 am on Thu, Oct 1, 2009.

    Posts:

    Billy, how dumb can you be? He quoted Franklin, a founding father, saying he doubted the divinity of Christ. He then said, the founding fathers were "certainly NOT Christian". He also quoted an article stating that the USA is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion? If you cannot find in that an implied or inferred stance on the issue, then you my friend, are clueless.

     
  • posted at 5:14 am on Thu, Oct 1, 2009.

    Posts:

    My opinion Cog, like yours, is worth its weight in gold (zero).However, you lied and were caught lying. In fact, what you were caught doing is bearing false witness against your neighbor.Now, as always, you try to blame someone else (me this time) for your inherent dishonesty.But as I said, feel free! Lie as if there is no sin in it. LOLWhat a worthless hypocrite.

     
  • posted at 2:56 am on Thu, Oct 1, 2009.

    Posts:

    Billy, I take your opinion for what it's worth. In the arena of reason, you have shown a lack of ability to even find the parking lot.

     
  • posted at 10:37 am on Wed, Sep 30, 2009.

    Posts:

    Gee, I am sorry, mr. man, with all the feelings...I was referring to the "whackjobs", @ the meeting.... but if you have the desire to include yourself... that is not my business..

     
  • posted at 3:40 pm on Tue, Sep 29, 2009.

    Posts:

    Robb... name calling? A characteristic and technique of weak performers in the arena of ideas. You wear your deep anger and insecurities on your sleeves. Next time try to not call a person a name and explain yourself, if you are able.

     
  • posted at 11:21 am on Tue, Sep 29, 2009.

    Posts:

    Cogito wrote "Lodian, in the beginning of this string "davidd" implied that the founding fathers were not religious men."Yes, I see that, thanks. And we agree that a cc meeting does not need to begin with a public prayer. The thousands of dollars being put into this campaign sickens me. What a waste.

     
  • posted at 10:38 am on Tue, Sep 29, 2009.

    Posts:

    Yea.. ok... Psycho...

     
  • posted at 9:55 am on Mon, Sep 28, 2009.

    Posts:

    Correction: I was there and Bill Moersch said "It's not a typical war over land. It's a battle for the heart and soul of this nation"Bill was speaking in a spiritual manner and I am not surprised there is push back from those who are not aware of such things. Ephesians 6:12 tells us "For we are not wrestling with flesh and blood [contending only with physical opponents], but against the despotisms, against the powers, against [the master spirits who are] the world rulers of this present darkness, against the spirit forces of wickedness in the heavenly (supernatural) sphere.This is a spiritual battle and those of us who know God's truth should note those responding foolishly and sincerely pray for them. Remember it's "In God We Trust" not the foolishness of this world.

     
  • posted at 7:34 am on Mon, Sep 28, 2009.

    Posts:

    Cogito wrote on Sep 28, 2009 9:11 AM:"Billy, Sept 25, 7:50am"No.On the Kinderman Scale your claim is a 1 (dishonest), Cog.To state, "..."davidd" implied that the founding fathers were not religious men" is a lie on your part. davidd made no such claim. You are, obviously, at your liberty to lie to your heart's content, but the truth - however foreign to you - should still be pointed out.

     
  • posted at 6:43 am on Mon, Sep 28, 2009.

    Posts:

    Still.. Nutbags...

     
  • posted at 4:11 am on Mon, Sep 28, 2009.

    Posts:

    Billy, Sept 25, 7:50 am

     
  • posted at 6:57 pm on Sun, Sep 27, 2009.

    Posts:

    davidd: Now you are beginning to understand. The "govt" is limited by the fact that it must remain secular. The people having been empowered by GOD itself will always rule that which is godless -- that would be govenments and anyone so foolish as to disregard the power of our LORD! That means, don't mess with GOD you fool!

     
  • posted at 6:49 pm on Sun, Sep 27, 2009.

    Posts:

    davidd: you didn't care until some haters from out of town told you to "hate" -- Hate for yourself for God's sake!

     
  • posted at 5:50 pm on Sun, Sep 27, 2009.

    Posts:

    Cogito wrote on Sep 26, 2009 11:19 AM:"Lodian, in the beginning of this string "davidd" implied that the founding fathers were not religious men."Was the comment in which "..."davidd" implied that the founding fathers were not religious men..." one of the many which have been censored by the LNS, Cog?I thought I was thorough when I looked for it, but was unable to find any such claim made by davidd - can you please point it out?Thanks in advance.

     
  • posted at 6:19 am on Sat, Sep 26, 2009.

    Posts:

    Lodian, in the beginning of this string "davidd" implied that the founding fathers were not religious men. I was responding mainly to that person. I'm with you, I don't see any good reason to begin CC meetings with a prayer of any kind. Recitation of the pledge would seem more fitting.

     
  • posted at 6:05 am on Sat, Sep 26, 2009.

    Posts:

    4CivilRights: Yes, we all know how women's fitness businesses have been guilty of centuries of exclusion.

     
  • posted at 6:03 am on Sat, Sep 26, 2009.

    Posts:

    Cogito wrote "Our founding fathers were overwhelmingly Christian thinkers."So, some say the same as you. What does that have to do with allowing prayer at a cc meeting?

     
  • posted at 4:01 am on Sat, Sep 26, 2009.

    Posts:

    Curves is in violation of the Ca Unruh Civil Rts Act which prevents discrimination by a business establishment. Were a complaint to be filed with the agency that enforces that law, it would have to be addressed. That agency has pursued other "women only" health clubs successfully, even shutting one down in Santa Rosa via a highly publicized case.

     
  • posted at 8:21 pm on Fri, Sep 25, 2009.

    Posts:

    Lodian, trust me, of those other 27, maybe 2 or 3 were atheists. Our founding fathers were overwhelmingly Christian thinkers. Even Jefferson, who may have questioned the divinity of Jesus said " I am a Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ". To deny the influence of the Christian philosophy in the founding of our country is pure ignorance of the facts. That being said, I don't believe that our founders wanted future generations to oppress those who had beliefs contrary to theirs. Our founders wanted freedom above all other things. Freedom from a government intruding into our lives. Freedom from a burdensome and unjust authority. The ability to pursue ones life without intrusion. Our government today is more and more taking that away from it's citizenry under the guise of the greater good. But I, for one, ain't drinking that particular flavor of Kool Aid.

     
  • posted at 5:54 pm on Fri, Sep 25, 2009.

    Posts:

    What about the other 27 people that signed the Declaration of Independence?

     
  • posted at 5:53 pm on Fri, Sep 25, 2009.

    Posts:

    ..."Moersch added that 29 of the 56 people who signed the Declaration of Independence were seminarians, which he said also confirms America's Christian culture."...Now, how does this confirm "America's Christian culture."?And what about the other 27?And, btw, a seminarian is not always a Christian.

     
  • posted at 4:17 pm on Fri, Sep 25, 2009.

    Posts:

    Maybe if he had horns.

     
  • posted at 4:04 pm on Fri, Sep 25, 2009.

    Posts:

    Could that dude look any more like Dick Cheney? Scary...

     
  • posted at 3:45 pm on Fri, Sep 25, 2009.

    Posts:

    Sheep is right.

     
  • posted at 3:24 pm on Fri, Sep 25, 2009.

    Posts:

    Sometimes I sing "Shepherd Boy" to my sheep.

     
  • posted at 2:46 pm on Fri, Sep 25, 2009.

    Posts:

    Responding to davidd’s comments from 7:50 AMThe sentence you quote from the Treaty of Tripoli is taken as a stand-alone statement and not in the context of the whole document which is misleading.You are correct in that Benjamin Franklin believed in God but was unsure about the divinity of Jesus. You are also correct in that many of our founding fathers believed not only in a higher power but in God. I am not convinced that your statement that they were not Christian is true. 29 of the 56 signers of the Declaration of Independence had seminary degrees. I’m pretty certain they would have studied a lot about the Bible and Jesus to obtain a seminary degree.What I find most disturbing is your judgment of Mr. Moersch’s motives. Since you don’t know Mr. Moersch personally and did not attend the prayer breakfast so did not hear the entirety of Mr. Moersch’s comments your judgment as to his motives are insulting and slanderous. If you are really interested in what our founding fathers believed I suggested you do some research at wallbuilders.com.

     
  • posted at 2:08 pm on Fri, Sep 25, 2009.

    Posts:

    Cogito: your the man. And as these posts come in, they continue to be a source of cheap entertainment.

     
  • posted at 1:19 pm on Fri, Sep 25, 2009.

    Posts:

    Well, if it is, I'm not drinking Red Bull anymore. As a guy in his 50s, I struggle with that enough!

     
  • posted at 11:23 am on Fri, Sep 25, 2009.

    Posts:

    Old men in suits... No good can ever come of it..It is soo refreshing to know that the thinking in That room, is the minority...

     
  • posted at 10:32 am on Fri, Sep 25, 2009.

    Posts:

    Cogito wrote "By the way, they [Hooters] really do have great wings."Is that what they're callin' them these days? ;-)

     
  • posted at 10:24 am on Fri, Sep 25, 2009.

    Posts:

    Well voter, your statement that its the fundamentalists who are always itching for war has little basis in historical fact. But, if you mean that conservative thinkers usually have more guts to defend what is theirs, what is right, and what is honorable, then I'd have to agree with you. Dogs, a man sued Hooters for the right to work there and won. But if I ever went to Hooters and he was my server, I'd leave out of principle. By the way, they really do have great wings.

     
  • posted at 10:10 am on Fri, Sep 25, 2009.

    Posts:

    I wish the time, and any money, spent on discussing and addressing this prayer issue at Lodi cc meetings would be put into... well, our cc meetings for the benefit of our Lodi citizens. Everyone can make their own prayer choices, now can we get back to city business?

     
  • posted at 9:58 am on Fri, Sep 25, 2009.

    Posts:

    Mazie: nobody cares where you pray, in a corn field or vineyard would suit you best. No matter where man came from, either a Supreme Being or out of the ocean as the result of one celled organism, as soon as man became man, it was all down hill. The last 34 blogs prove it since nothing will ever change. The guy in a suite and tie with a holier than thou attitude is no better than a homeless bum living in a tent. Forget praying, pass the coffee.

     
  • posted at 9:47 am on Fri, Sep 25, 2009.

    Posts:

    Cogito, I never mentioned any presidents, nor did I mention specific wars. I was looking at the larger picture.

     
  • posted at 9:26 am on Fri, Sep 25, 2009.

    Posts:

    That should have read.. "Christian community leaders prayer breakfast"...not ccc.

     
  • posted at 9:21 am on Fri, Sep 25, 2009.

    Posts:

    Cogito wrote "Last time I checked, "Curves" won't allow men to join. Are they living in the 50s?"Well, at least Curves knows they are catering to women for a reason. Most men know they are not women and would freely admit it. It seems the CCC, up until 1994, must have thought that only men were interested in Christian concerns. Did they not know women were Christians too? Know your audience. ;-)

     
  • posted at 9:12 am on Fri, Sep 25, 2009.

    Posts:

    Jerome R. Kinderman wrote "Leave it up to those who hate God (and those who love Him) to distort the man's comment."So, everyone is distorting?

     
  • posted at 9:09 am on Fri, Sep 25, 2009.

    Posts:

    How about a public recitation alternating weekly between, say, Whitman and Dickinson?

     
  • posted at 9:06 am on Fri, Sep 25, 2009.

    Posts:

    davidd wrote "How dare you take their flee from persecution and use it for your own religious advancement. The irony is sickening."I agree.

     
  • posted at 9:04 am on Fri, Sep 25, 2009.

    Posts:

    mazie wrote "I will pray to Jesus any time and any where I please. I would love to see someone try and stop me. We all need to stand up for what we believe in NOW...before it is too late."Who's stopping you from praying to Jesus?

     
  • posted at 8:57 am on Fri, Sep 25, 2009.

    Posts:

    Cogito, concerning Curves and women only, you will never see a man at Hooters, I hope. Is all this back stabing really necessary, what is going to happen will happen. What do you think will happen at the Day of Prayer, nothing. Waste of time, the world will go on. Glad I`m not anything, from all the crap you folks are putting out, I haven`t missed a thing.

     
  • posted at 8:14 am on Fri, Sep 25, 2009.

    Posts:

    So your saying it was the fundamentalists who influenced FDR, JFK, LBJ into war because they were "itching" for it? I happen to be a good friend of Bill Moersch, and you'll never meet a man of higher integrity, with a more happy go lucky personality. He is a golden person in my life.

     
  • posted at 7:46 am on Fri, Sep 25, 2009.

    Posts:

    I didn't say anything about presidents. You grabbed that out of thin air.

     
  • posted at 7:25 am on Fri, Sep 25, 2009.

    Posts:

    I think voter needs to study up a little on American history to gain some knowledge about who the presidents were when we've gone to war. It's good to not sound ignorant.

     
  • posted at 7:22 am on Fri, Sep 25, 2009.

    Posts:

    basp, I was responding to a person who made a remark about the group of Christian community leaders not having a woman member until 1994 (4AStrongLodi, 10:14), not the City Council. If you want to know my feelings about prayer at CC meetings, read the blogs on Ken Owens' column.

     
  • posted at 7:19 am on Fri, Sep 25, 2009.

    Posts:

    Here are four reasons why the City Council should vote for a moment of silence:1.The risk of a lawsuit is too great for a city that is strapped for cash and is already busy with too many legal battles.2.Lodi is a city of many religions, and allowing prayer -- which history shows us will be mostly Christian -- is a divisive decision.3.Prayer can stir emotions and ill will in those who have lived through persecution and seen the hate that many religious people foster. To many, prayer reminds them of excommunication from families, Prop 8, oppression of women, sexual abuse, and other examples of intolerance.4.Citizens who wish to pray have a multitude of venues in which they can do so. A tax-funded building, in a public meeting, for government issues, intended for all citizens is not a venue for prayer.We believe that all Lodi residents should feel welcome at City Council Meetings. You can likely sympathize with those who feel uncomfortable when a prayer of a different denomination is given.Taken from:http://www.lodiunited.org/why.html

     
  • posted at 7:13 am on Fri, Sep 25, 2009.

    Posts:

    basp, I believe cogito's blog was satire and was a result of a comment about the Leadership Prayer Breakfast, not City Council Meetings.

     
  • posted at 6:35 am on Fri, Sep 25, 2009.

    Posts:

    CogitoCurves is a private business and can choose to do business with who ever they want. The city council meetings are public and mandated to be inclusive.

     
  • posted at 5:47 am on Fri, Sep 25, 2009.

    Posts:

    Last time I checked, "Curves" won't allow men to join. Are they living in the 50s?

     
  • posted at 5:45 am on Fri, Sep 25, 2009.

    Posts:

    Wtf, the charges against the guy were well founded and documented. He'd been being watched for a long time. Someone I know, who works for the Justice Dept. told me something was going down in Lodi 6 months before the arrests.

     
  • posted at 5:36 am on Fri, Sep 25, 2009.

    Posts:

    Throughout the stormy centuries there has been this war raging, its very essence is a struggle between good and evil. People in every generation have taken one side or the other, there is no neutral position.

     
  • posted at 5:24 am on Fri, Sep 25, 2009.

    Posts:

    Cogito, that was "alleged" terrorist training. There was so much hype and fear mongering on the boob tube it wasn't even funny.The irony is, while the "good" Christians were all for tormenting the Muslim people simply because they **were** Muslim i.e., religious persecution, now they're saying they're fighting a 'war' to preserve their faith?Geez!

     
  • posted at 5:14 am on Fri, Sep 25, 2009.

    Posts:

    What a bunch of kooks. Somebody should tell them it's not 1950 anymore.And women weren't allowed at the breakfast until 1994? Huh?This group is all out about exclusion...and igonrance.

     
  • posted at 5:04 am on Fri, Sep 25, 2009.

    Posts:

    wtf, if our intelligence knew of a plan where a group of people intended to kill people in mass, do you really believe they shouldn't be stopped simply because of their religious affiliation? Thanks be to God that the Bush administration foiled many terrorist attempts to destroy Americans.Bush never ever rounded up people based solely upon their religious affiliation, your claim is a falsehood!

     
  • posted at 4:33 am on Fri, Sep 25, 2009.

    Posts:

    WTF "Muslims rounded up as terrorists"? The only local Muslims I remember being rounded up were the ones who spent time in terrorist training. The rest were left alone. It wasn't like what happened to the Japanese during FDRs administration.

     
  • posted at 4:12 am on Fri, Sep 25, 2009.

    Posts:

    Wow! I am really amazed at how the fundamentalist Christians can be so vehement. I mean, it's good you're defending your beliefs and all that; but, newsflash Mazie....it's not "your" - as in Christians - country. (This is in response to your post of Sep 25, 2009 at 6:59 AM: "This is still our country...") The UNITED States is for EVERYONE of all races, creeds, religions, etc.And while we're on the subject of persecution....where were all you rabid Christians when the Muslims were being rounded up as "terrorists" during Bush's regime?Oh, that's right! You thought rounding people up based solely on the RELIGION was a **good** idea.Hypocrites!

     
  • posted at 3:49 am on Fri, Sep 25, 2009.

    Posts:

    When people of faith are attacked as relentlessly as we've experienced in recent times, it isn't beyond the realm of reality to declare that there is a war going on. To describe it as a "civil" war was not to compare it to the bloodbath of the 1860s. No, what is meant by that phrase is that the war should be waged "civilly."Leave it up to those who hate God (and those who love Him) to distort the man's comment.

     
  • posted at 3:23 am on Fri, Sep 25, 2009.

    Posts:

    I just don't understand why it upsets atheists so much when we want to pray to Jesus Christ. If there is no Jesus, then why should you care? We are not hurting anyone. And all you have to do is close your ears (something you are already good at). We will not try to convert your beliefs, please leave us alone when we pray. You have every right to be an atheist and i have every right to pray to Jesus Christ. Try to stop me.

     
  • posted at 3:21 am on Fri, Sep 25, 2009.

    Posts:

    Jenn, are you denying that the majority of Lodians, or Americans for that matter, do not identify themselves as Christians?

     
  • posted at 3:18 am on Fri, Sep 25, 2009.

    Posts:

    "Before the Continental Congress signed the Declaration of Independence, they called for a day of "fasting and prayer" as to whether they should secede from England. The CC also called the Bible "the great political textbook of the patriots", then appropriated the funds to import 20,000 Bibles for the people. The CC began each session with a prayer." These are seemingly odd practices for a group of Atheists, wouldn't you agree? http://www.shalomjerusalem.com/heritage/heritage19.html

     
  • posted at 3:12 am on Fri, Sep 25, 2009.

    Posts:

    It was bad enough when Councilperson Johnson made his disgusting remark about Lodi. Now he says he refuses to apologize for it & has already made up his mind about how he will vote on the prayer issue and is not only announcing it in public, but it encouraging others to come and urge his fellow Council members to vote the same way. Johnson is plainly not fit to serve on the Council and will not get my vote should he run again. I am appalled by his behavior & comments and, as a lifelong Lodian, again embarrassed by his remarks. He cannot and does not represent me, nor is he qualified to serve the many other Lodi residents who do not consider themselves to be Christians.

     
  • posted at 3:07 am on Fri, Sep 25, 2009.

    Posts:

    Mazie:Please take the time to educate yourself to the truth that surrounds you.It make no difference whether you "pray" to allah, god, jesus, whatever...//like anyone is listening anyway//

     
  • posted at 2:50 am on Fri, Sep 25, 2009.

    Posts:

    Why do so many self-proclaimed historians ignore this article:"The Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."That is directly from the Treaty of Tropoli, signed in 1797 by John Adams and unanimously by every senator at the time.Or this quote, from Mr Benjamin Franklin:"I have, with most of the present Dissenters in England, some doubts as to [Jesus's] divinity".http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2002/03/ben-franklin-quotes.phpMr Moersch, our Founding Fathers may have believed in a higher power, but they were most certainly NOT Christian.How dare you take their flee from persecution and use it for your own religious advancement. The irony is sickening.

     
  • posted at 2:26 am on Fri, Sep 25, 2009.

    Posts:

    Ross, you know that this has nothing to do with a group of atheists from Wisconsin. Shame on you.Lodi United is made up of Lodi citizens, and people who work and shop in Lodi. We are of all religions. And we do NOT want to hear tax-payer funded prayer at city meetings.A moment of silence is a perfect compromise. If you agree, please join us at www.LodiUnited.org.

     
  • posted at 2:16 am on Fri, Sep 25, 2009.

    Posts:

    This is great recruiting material for the Freedom From Religion Foundation!

     
  • posted at 1:59 am on Fri, Sep 25, 2009.

    Posts:

    We cannot say "Jesus Christ" but it is fine for Muslims to have a National Day of Prayer???? NOT!!!! This is still our country and I will pray to Jesus any time and any where I please. I would love to see someone try and stop me. We all need to stand up for what we believe in NOW...before it is too late. With BO as president, we are going to lose all our freedoms.

     
  • posted at 1:53 am on Fri, Sep 25, 2009.

    Posts:

    "We are in a civil war," said Bill Moersch.Funny, I thought we were having civil public discourse about a topic important to the community. It's always the fundamentalist who are just itching for a war.

     
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