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More testimony of priest roughhousing children in the 1980s

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Posted: Thursday, March 8, 2012 12:00 am | Updated: 7:37 am, Thu Mar 8, 2012.

The mother of the 37-year-old man suing Father Michael Kelly on a child sexual abuse allegation told a jury Wednesday that she and her then-husband saw Kelly tickle and roughhouse with her two children during the mid-1980s, but she said she felt too intimidated to question his actions.

"We didn't say anything because it's very hard to admonish a priest," the woman said during the fifth day of the civil trial against Kelly, pastor of Lockeford's St. Joachim's Catholic Church since 2004.

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Welcome to the discussion.

20 comments:

  • Kevin Paglia posted at 11:22 pm on Thu, Mar 8, 2012.

    Kevin Paglia Posts: 1980

    K Lee: from your same source: http://faculty.washington.edu/eloftus/Articles/sciam.htm

    "How is it possible for people to acquire elaborate and confident false memories? A growing number of investigations demonstrate that under the right circumstances false memories can be instilled rather easily in some people."

    Also, if you read through the article you posted you will also read how easily some believe the repressed memory is true when it is not. The article talks briefly about people believing they were abused by Satanic cults even though there was no evidence it ever happened.

    Scroll down to "Therapists accounts" and read how they start the process by assuming people have been abused.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 11:12 pm on Thu, Mar 8, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    K lee... When I typed that statement, I had spent a few days seaching for cases in court that wwere in reference to law suits against the priests of the Catholic Church which is related to the thread we are on. I do not know about the history world wide of all child abuse cases. A majority of cases I was able to find that have been involved with SNAP and the Catholic Church have been related to some sort of Repressed Memory Syndome.

    I did not say it was odd for children to have repressed memories, I was not making that point. I was expecting to find cases against priests that were " not related to repressed memory syndrome. They are hard to find lately.

     
  • Kim Lee posted at 10:46 pm on Thu, Mar 8, 2012.

    Kim Lee Posts: 1798

    Darrell wrote, "...but isn't it so odd that a vast majority of child abuse cases are repressed memory syndrome cases just like Tim's who “CLAIMS” 30 years after the fact, that they were abused."

    Darrell: A repressed memory of sexual abuse as a child does not seem to be odd at all. And where did you get your information that a "vast majority of child abuse cases are repressed memory syndrome cases"? I would like to know your source so I can read it myself.

    This is interesting...

    From washington.edu...
    (http://faculty.washington.edu/eloftus/Articles/lof93.htm)

    "The idea of repression of early traumatic memories is a concept that many psychotherapists readily accept ( Bruhn, 1990 ). In fact, it has been said that repression is the foundation on which psychoanalysis rests ( Bower, 1990 ). According to the theory, something happens that is so shocking that the mind grabs hold of the memory and pushes it underground, into some inaccessible corner of the unconscious. There it sleeps for years, or even decades, or even forever–isolated from the rest of mental life. Then, one day, it may rise up and emerge into consciousness. Numerous clinical examples fitting this model can be readily found. Many of these examples involve not memory of murder but rather memory of other sorts of childhood trauma, such as sexual abuse, that allegedly has been repressed for decades until recovered in therapy."

    I think too many people rush to judgment and want to discredit a victim just because the horrific memories of child sexual abuse/molestation were suppressed until adulthood.

     
  • Kim Lee posted at 10:25 pm on Thu, Mar 8, 2012.

    Kim Lee Posts: 1798

    Darrell wrote, "Father Kelly is already guilty in the view of SNAP...and Tim's bias post undercover exposes this."

    There is nothing posted here by someone named Tim Lennon.


     
  • Kim Lee posted at 10:25 pm on Thu, Mar 8, 2012.

    Kim Lee Posts: 1798

    Darrell wrote, "Father Kelly is already guilty in the view of SNAP...and Tim's bias post undercover exposes this."

    There is nothing posted here by someone named Time Lennon.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 9:23 pm on Thu, Mar 8, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Kim Dos stated...Father Kelly is a not innocent

    Ms Dos,I do not know one way or the other if father Kelly is innocent or guilty.

    I think too many people like you rush to judgment and declare the outcome before the trial begins. SNAP and you have declared this man guilty. He has passed a lie detector test and deserves the benefit that all people in America “SHOULD” get, which is presumed innocent until proven guilty. Please at least open your mind and give the defense a chance to present their case. Also open your mind to the possibility that money is a motive in many cases... this may or may not be one of them.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 7:35 pm on Thu, Mar 8, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    according to
    http://www.themediareport.com/2012/03/01/exclusive-deposition-of-snaps-clohessy-revealed/

    SNAPS National director is David Clohessy. In 2012, he was involved in a deposition was conducted in Clayton, Missouri, as part of an effort to determine the violation of a court-imposed gag order in the case of an accused Catholic priest. Interesting information was discovered in this deposition. Imagine... the National Director of SNAP could not give a definition or “repressed memory” while under a legal deposition.


    However, in the deposition, the reader learns:
    SNAP has never advertised or promoted itself as a rape crisis center;
    SNAP's tax records have shown no expenses for rape counseling services nor any identification as a "rape crisis center";
    Clohessy has no formal training as a rape counselor;
    Clohessy works out of his home;
    There are no paid licensed rape crisis counselors on SNAP's staff, with the possible exception of SNAP president Barbara Blaine in Chicago;
    Clohessy could not give a definition of "rape trauma syndrome";
    Clohessy could not tell what a "safe exam" is; and
    Clohessy could not give a definition of "repressed memory."
    In other words, lawyers for an accused priest effectively shredded Clohessy's claim that SNAP operates in the manner of a rape crisis center.
    Clohessy also said that he had no idea that SNAP "is required by federal law to contribute so much of their assets every year for charitable purposes."
    "I'm not aware of that," Clohessy replied.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 7:22 pm on Thu, Mar 8, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Since Melanie Julia Sakoda is the SNAP East Bay Director, and part of the same aggressive organization that sees priests guilty until proven innocent, of course she is going to support Tim Lennon's terrible behavior in attempting to manipulate the public.

    How could she possible defend his blatant obvious deceit at presenting himself as some innocent bystander yet is one of the key advocates in attempting to overturn legislation that will ultimately benefit his own pocket book in my opinion. The answer is easy... SNAP does not care what tactics they use as the ends justifies the means. Father Kelly is already guilty in the view of SNAP...and Tim's bias post undercover exposes this.
    All one does if have to follow SNAP and the attorneys that support them who make millions upon millions of dollars off this industry.
    Like Kevin stated, priests who are guilty should be taken off the street... but isn't it so odd that a vast majority of child abuse cases are repressed memory syndrome cases just like Tim's who “CLAIMS” 30 years after the fact, that they were abused. Of course it happens...to discount the billions of dollars at stake and that the plaintive s can hide behind the secrecy of “ John Doe”, the priest should not be considered guilty before the trial even begins... like SNAP does in each case.


    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/24/us/24bcclergy.html?pagewanted=all

     
  • Melanie Sakoda posted at 6:28 pm on Thu, Mar 8, 2012.

    Melanie Sakoda Posts: 16

    Can traumatic events be forgotten… and then remembered later in life? A variety of scientific sources say “yes.”

    http://blogs.brown.edu/recoveredmemory/

    Melanie Jula Sakoda
    Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests (SNAP)
    SNAP East Bay Director
    Toll Free Phone: 1-877-SNAPHEALS (1-877-762-7432)
    melanie.sakoda@gmail.com
    925-708-6175

    PS I wouldn't hire Darrell Baumbach to do online research. If you want to know more about Tim Lennon, check out the two links pasted below.

    http://www.lodinews.com/news/article_6327e964-d4c6-54a6-80a0-d3d4bdb7c776.html

    http://www.snapnetwork.org/california

     
  • Kim Lee posted at 5:03 pm on Thu, Mar 8, 2012.

    Kim Lee Posts: 1798

    The Catholic church has brought this all on the Catholic Church and the Catholic priests by the horrific and abusive way they have handled their priests that have sexual molested so many many innocent children. The Catholic Church has invited the unscrupulous to try and dip their hand into the endless money pot of the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church has been incredibly and unforgivably (in my opinion) negligent in cases of child sexual abuse. They have lost all credibility. Some innocent priests pay the price for it. That is the fault of the Catholic Church and the abuser priests. When the Catholic Church decides to stand against child sexual abuse then perhaps the innocent priests will not be accused along with the abusive priests.

     
  • Kim Lee posted at 5:00 pm on Thu, Mar 8, 2012.

    Kim Lee Posts: 1798

    Kevin wrote, "This is where I have a hard time. While I want every single predator priest locked up and those that enabled them to find victims to face punishment as well, I also equally want every single innocent priest to be vindicated in the media just as loudly as they were demonized."

    What do you propose?

     
  • Kim Lee posted at 4:50 pm on Thu, Mar 8, 2012.

    Kim Lee Posts: 1798

    Kevin: How should an abused child pursue justice for being sexually molested?

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 4:19 pm on Thu, Mar 8, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    I was wondering why there are so many repressed memory syndrome cases … It could be a result of the statute of limitation laws in California... it appears that the legal action must begin within three years after the person should have reasonably discovered injury... As a result, if the person suddenly remembers abuse in 2010, he has until 2014 to file a claim. Without repressed memory syndrome, the attorney that represents John Doe in this case would be millions of dollars less rich. This attorey alone has won almost a billion dollars in child abuse cases... with big money at stake, people should take that in account as a possible reason for these law suits.

    http://www.blanelaw.com/blog/special-statute-of-limitations-for-child-abuse-in-california-san-diego.cfm

    In a legal action for a person over the age of eighteen, recovering for sexual abuse that happened while he or she was a minor child must be as follows: the time for the commencement of the legal action must be within eight years of the date the person attains the age of majority (eighteen years old) or within three years of the date the person discovers (or reasonably should have discovered) that psychological injury or illness occurring after the age of eighteen was caused by the sexual abuse, whichever period expires later

    I am not an attorney of course and maybe I do not understand this correctly. If someone has better information, please make a correction as truth is important.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 4:01 pm on Thu, Mar 8, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    I am suspicious that father Kelly is being railroaded here. Do you remember Tim Lennon who earlier posted that he had gone to the trial and that the testimony in the paper was reported in softer terms that what really happened. Tim Lennon posted at 10:46 pm on Sun, Mar 4, 2012

    I posted that Tim appeared to be bias and maybe abused himself.
    Well I did some online research and it turns out Tim lives in San Francisco and is the regional director of SNAP... He is also in the repressed memory syndrome club where he accused a catholic priest of sexual abuse 30 years after it happened. He was 12 at the time according to the NY Times. He is actively engaged in politics and is participating in activity to do away with statue of limitations of child abuse in California. If he is successful, he will gain financially from his efforts it appears.

    In fact, Tim just retired from a position in February so he can devote all his time to SNAP as its director in San Francisco. I think this man was very deceptive in his posts as he appeared to be a concerned local who happened to go to the trial... He posted the same post in the Modesto paper as he did in Lodi's.

    SNAP is very aggressive and assumes priests are guilty first. Since he is the director, he obviously was attempting to manipulate public perception of this priest.
    Obviously, Joanne and Klee are predisposed to his thinking and are susceptible to his kind of manipulations. He must be very pleased at the content of their posts. I am sure he is saying to himself...great job Tim, they are eating out of my hands.

     
  • Kevin Paglia posted at 2:48 pm on Thu, Mar 8, 2012.

    Kevin Paglia Posts: 1980

    "Child abusers may have forgotten any inappropriate behavior with children, but the children (now adults) can recall the horror quite vividly in many cases."

    Here is the problem, K Lee. If someone YOU babysat 30 years ago,,, ok you can't be that old how about just 15 years ago had a "therapist" recover a lost memory that is completely false of YOU sexually abusing them how would you be able to defend yourself?

    This is where I have a hard time. While I want every single predator priest locked up and those that enabled them to find victims to face punishment as well, I also equally want every single innocent priest to be vindicated in the media just as loudly as they were demonized. There are more than 300 priest who have been accused and then found to be completely innocent that are still having to deal with people believing they are guilty. They are still waiting to get back to their passion, working inside the Catholic Church. But because some therapist "recovered" a memory that was a lie, they are banished from service.

    The guilty should be punished, both those those victimized the children AND those who are now victimizing innocent priests.

     
  • Kim Lee posted at 2:22 pm on Thu, Mar 8, 2012.

    Kim Lee Posts: 1798

    Kevin Paglia wrote, "I do agree that the tickling is A LOT over the top."

    To say the least.

     
  • Kim Lee posted at 2:19 pm on Thu, Mar 8, 2012.

    Kim Lee Posts: 1798

    Joanne Bobin wrote, "Even if it is determined by the jury that no actual sexual contact took place, his behavior is still very suspect, especially his "tickling" fetish."

    I agree, Joanne. And many unsolicited offers to babysit is suspect as well.

     
  • Kim Lee posted at 2:16 pm on Thu, Mar 8, 2012.

    Kim Lee Posts: 1798

    Child abusers may have forgotten any inappropriate behavior with children, but the children (now adults) can recall the horror quite vividly in many cases. The adult abuser often doesn't think he/she was doing any harm to the child, so the memory is not horrific in their eyes.

     
  • Kevin Paglia posted at 1:51 pm on Thu, Mar 8, 2012.

    Kevin Paglia Posts: 1980

    Joanne: I have known several priests who offer babysitting services for parishioners. Also known many who rarely ate alone with families inviting them over so often. I even knew several families that had standing invites to the parish priest to come over for dinner when ever he needed. It is not uncommon for Catholic families to reach out to their priests so that the priest feels like he has an extended family with him.

    I do agree that the tickling is A LOT over the top. But I have also had an uncle whose children were well grown and out of the house and it had been so long since he was around kids he didn't know how to play with them. He thought rough housing was the way to go for us boys. I heard an elbow in the gut from a cousin cured him of that problem. My point is that some adults don't know HOW to play with kids. Especially some older generation men see rough housing as a way to "toughen up" the kids.

    Now that the memories are 30+ years old. Time and "recovered" memories have a way of twisting what really happened. A while back I was talking with my parents about a very clear memory I had of getting in big trouble for something (don't ask, but it involved a dirt clod and a neighbors window) but they didn't remember it at all.

     
  • Joanne Bobin posted at 10:14 am on Thu, Mar 8, 2012.

    Joanne Bobin Posts: 4488

    Interesting that this priest, unlike many of his fellow priests according to testimony, consistently "invited" himself to dinner at the homes of parishioners with children and offered, unsolicited, to "babysit" for parishioners' children.

    Even if it is determined by the jury that no actual sexual contact took place, his behavior is still very suspect, especially his "tickling" fetish. Really?

     
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