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Gay students at Tokay High School face challenges, member of Gay-Straight Alliance says

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Posted: Saturday, August 20, 2011 12:00 am | Updated: 10:39 am, Sat Aug 20, 2011.

Hanan Rashid has family members and friends who are gay. She sees how much people pick on them, calling them "queers" or making other disparaging remarks.

Rashid, a Tokay High senior, is vice president of the campus Gay-Straight Alliance, a student group designed to make students feel more comfortable on campus.

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72 comments:

  • Kim Lee posted at 7:41 pm on Fri, Aug 26, 2011.

    Kim Lee Posts: 1798

    I don't care about your politics, personal beliefs, taxpayer gripes or anti gay issues. I am just glad that the Gay-Straight Alliance group is there on campus and available to the students that need it. Way to go Tokay High!

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 2:12 pm on Fri, Aug 26, 2011.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Darrell: Are there any other groups at school that you oppose? Or is it just the Gay-Straight Alliance group that you want to be off campus? You do realize that there are all kinds of other groups on campus, right?

    K Lee... the answer is obvious...just follow the logic of my position... I have been consistent for months and have many times argued that if schools what to make their facilities available for various organizations, that would be OK, but the teachers of employees of the school should not be the supervisors. For example, if the girl scouts of America were given permission to meet on grounds for an after school program by the school board who is accountable to the voter, then I would have no problem with that as long as no school employee was supervisor. The oversight should be made by people accountable to the parents and tax payer which the school board would accomplish. If the gay alliance group wanted to meet, it should have nothing to do with teachers or supervision of a school employee. The supervisor and group should be approved by the school board where it is subject to public review.

     
  • Kim Lee posted at 9:43 am on Fri, Aug 26, 2011.

    Kim Lee Posts: 1798

    Darrell wrote, "I am very comfortable with gay people and enjoy their company."

    Hmmm.

     
  • Kim Lee posted at 9:43 am on Fri, Aug 26, 2011.

    Kim Lee Posts: 1798

    Darrell: Are there any other groups at school that you oppose? Or is it just the Gay-Straight Alliance group that you want to be off campus? You do realize that there are all kinds of other groups on campus, right?

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 9:04 pm on Thu, Aug 25, 2011.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    K Lee stated...Perhaps you are missing the whole point of those that disagree with you. You are basically telling others that their "lifestyle" means less to you, and to society, than your "lifestyle"

    K Lee is so far off base with her opinion, Im not sure how to respond.... My entire concern is about the a tax payer funded organization having complete control of this situation. I stated this group should only be off school grounds which was the extent of my contribution. I am very comfortable with gay people and enjoy their company. K lee is simply a confused angry woman who cannot think appropriately in my opinion. There was no basis for her conclusion.

     
  • Kim Lee posted at 1:57 pm on Thu, Aug 25, 2011.

    Kim Lee Posts: 1798

    Darrell wrote, "I think it is sad that if a non gay person addresses their disagreement or opposition to the gay lifestyle, that inevitably the person speaking in favor of the gay issue accuses the other side of being bigots and wrong."

    Perhaps you are missing the whole point of those that disagree with you. You are basically telling others that their "lifestyle" means less to you, and to society, than your "lifestyle". Not only that... you demean their choices as if there is something terribly wrong with them (hence the need for this Gay-Straight Alliance group). You are insulting someone at the very core of who they are, so it is reasonable to expect that person to take issue with you. You often make things very personal here, Darrell, and are usually very rude and dismissive. That kind of disrespectful treatment does not bring out the best in others for a debate.

     
  • Kim Lee posted at 1:39 pm on Thu, Aug 25, 2011.

    Kim Lee Posts: 1798

    It sure sounds like some people are afraid that if their student stopped in to visit the Gay-Straight Alliance group at Tokay that their student may become gay.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 4:02 pm on Mon, Aug 22, 2011.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Manuel stated...How are you this thick?
    I explained to you that student groups are required to have an adviser, and that those advisers must be MEMBERS OF THE FACULTY.

    Manuel finally gets close but the answer still alludes him. I think he almost got it. No other possibility exists on school grounds. The school controls the groups and which adults are permitted to associate and “advise” them. As you stated,MEMBERS OF THE FACULTY are the advisers.

    So, if that is true, I assume that these teachers have professional training and certification to be qualified to be an adviser... Manuel... can you verify that all advisers to these clubs are trained and certified? If not, why is only staff permitted to be in this important position. Why not a community member who goes through screening of the independent school board elected by the voters if it were decided to hold these clubs on school grounds?

    The entire situation can be resolved by holding these club meetings off school grounds where these problems could be resolved by requiring parental involvement.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 2:38 pm on Mon, Aug 22, 2011.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Pattye stated...Although we as a society may disagree about homosexuality, hopefully we can all agree that children should be safe at their learning institution - gay and straight alike.

    I agree with this thought 100%... All children should be safe in a controlled environment.
    However, that agreement does not necessitate any club on campus... I would rather see the club off campus where all parents give permission for the minors they are legally held responsible for and held independent of a tax payer funded organization.

     
  • Pattye Nelson posted at 1:23 pm on Mon, Aug 22, 2011.

    Pattye Nelson Posts: 29

    Kudos to Tokay High School for having a GSA Club and the individuals who were brave enough to be named. Although we as a society may disagree about homosexuality, hopefully we can all agree that children should be safe at their learning institution - gay and straight alike.

     
  • Robert Chapman posted at 5:52 am on Mon, Aug 22, 2011.

    Bob Chapman Posts: 997

    MANUEL posted, "Robert Chapman posted at 3:34 pm on Sun, Aug 21, 2011.
    "Mr. Docktor is an adult not an innocent impressionable child."

    Anyone else giggle uncontrollably?"

    I realize that you are giddy with the thought of a school mandate to teach about homosexuals in the classroom to innocent and impressionable children. Hang on to that giddiness as it will soon be gone when this goes to ballot and is overturned.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 9:28 pm on Sun, Aug 21, 2011.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Manuel stated...By now, I have ceased giving you any shred of credibility and am surprised that Joanne or the others on these forums have the patience to endure your nonsense..

    Funny, you must have been reading my mind about you. Except the difference is I have never given you any credibility... it never began. Anyone who would consider CBO reports as evidence of truth is simply misguided.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 9:24 pm on Sun, Aug 21, 2011.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Manuel Stated...Wrong, you know full well that this is what you meant by calling into question the influence that you perceive to emanate from this group and its adviser.

    Manuel.. you know full well you are being dishonest. You have no clue what my intent was. You can infer or guess, but you are dead wrong.
    Again you prove me right... you sometimes say stupid things.

     
  • Manuel Martinez posted at 7:51 pm on Sun, Aug 21, 2011.

    Manuel Martinez Posts: 641

    Darrell Baumbach posted at 7:17 pm on Sun, Aug 21, 2011.
    "I cannot speak for Brian, but Manuel is so far off that it is amazing. I find his accusation insulting. I have no idea what the intent of the teacher is as I cannot see in her heart. I can say that the opportunity is there for undue influence to take place if the instructor crosses the line. I also think that students themselves are capable of influencing each other and if proper supervision is not done, negative things can happen.
    Manuel, for a person who thinks he is superior thinker, you sometimes say really stupid things."

    Wrong, you know full well that this is what you meant by calling into question the influence that you perceive to emanate from this group and its adviser. If you feel insulted, than I am glad to have wounded you, just as you have engaged in subtle hinting and referring to those who dislike bigots as intolerant (Your comments to Warner are examples) in an attempt to insult them. If all you were doing was saying that there was potential for undue influence by advisers to student groups, why have you drawn this thought out over the course of hours (bordering on pure repetition) with regards to a gay straight alliance to the exclusion of student sports groups, art groups or drama groups (the christian play on the front page is another example) and the potential for their 'negative influence'? By now, I have ceased giving you any shred of credibility and am surprised that Joanne or the others on these forums have the patience to endure your nonsense.

    As to whether or not Brian felt this way, you are being disingenuous in claiming not to know. It was here, plain as day and the subject of a constant back and forth between myself and Mr. Docktor.

    Brian Dockter posted at 8:16 am on Sat, Aug 20, 2011.
    LNS wrote:
    Rashid says that freshmen find the idea of homosexuality rather confusing. Last year, a couple of students in the Gay-Straight Alliance began the school year thinking they were straight, only to discover by the end of the year that they weren't, she said.

    -How about that. Kids that thought thet were perfectly fine at the beginning of the year find out they are not by the end of the year. And then this Gay-Straight alliance wonders why people LIKE ME are suspicious of their agenda.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 7:17 pm on Sun, Aug 21, 2011.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Manuel stated...Let's face it, we all know what these two have been arguing - that the Tokay GSA engaged in active "recruiting" (for the purposes of this discussion, recruiting refers to the attempt to change another person's sexual orientation; in this case, towards same sex attraction.) Is this the case Kevin?

    I cannot speak for Brian, but Manuel is so far off that it is amazing. I find his accusation insulting. I have no idea what the intent of the teacher is as I cannot see in her heart. I can say that the opportunity is there for undue influence to take place if the instructor crosses the line. I also think that students themselves are capable of influencing each other and if proper supervision is not done, negative things can happen.
    Manuel, for a person who thinks he is superior thinker, you sometimes say really stupid things.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 6:56 pm on Sun, Aug 21, 2011.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Manuel stated...I actually want to comment on this a tad more because you (Kevin) are the only one that is marginally sane in this discussion.

    Oh My... Manuel .... feeling a bit superior are we... thats the real Manuel I know who really is above it all.

     
  • Manuel Martinez posted at 5:38 pm on Sun, Aug 21, 2011.

    Manuel Martinez Posts: 641

    I actually want to comment on this a tad more because you (Kevin) are the only one that is marginally sane in this discussion. I can acknowledge that student groups solicit the attention of members and carry an influence, however, it is a far cry from arguing that these students engaged in what Darrell and Brian insinuate.

    Let's face it, we all know what these two have been arguing - that the Tokay GSA engaged in active "recruiting" (for the purposes of this discussion, recruiting refers to the attempt to change another person's sexual orientation; in this case, towards same sex attraction.) Is this the case Kevin?

     
  • Manuel Martinez posted at 5:29 pm on Sun, Aug 21, 2011.

    Manuel Martinez Posts: 641

    Kevin, Darrell made no comment on influence from the students, he made the insinuation that the adviser/instructor was the progenitor of this influence.

     
  • Kevin Paglia posted at 5:22 pm on Sun, Aug 21, 2011.

    Kevin Paglia Posts: 2050

    "Have you had no experience with extra-curricular student groups on a public school?"

    I have. In HS I worked with SADD. After two years with them I can honestly say I was influenced to NEVER drink and drive. I did the Drama club in HS and learned that making a fool of your self in public is fun and it influenced me to come out of my shell a bit (I use to be very reclusive, now I'm just a little bit). Also played HS Football, it influenced me to be a team player and how work ethic pays off. I worked on my HS literary club for 4 years and it influenced me to look for meaning behind what I read.

    My son has been influenced in his extra-curricular activities as well. Comedy sports has influenced him to be more open around people. School talent shows have influenced him to take a risk and share his talents with complete strangers.

    It doesn't even have to be a Ex-cir activity to influence people. A person's attitude can influence those around them. One negative person in an office can influence everyone around them to be negative as well. On the other hand a positive hard worker can influence the co-workers to perform harder as well.

    We are influenced by the people around us, the more time we spend around them the more influenced we are. there is an old saying, Garbage in Garbage out. The inverse is true too, positive in positive out. Some kids are very easily influenced to behave as those who have accepted them tell them to behave. It is the reason cults look for kids to recruit and why gangs go after kids. They are easily influenced to do things they wouldn't do in a few years. Unfortunately in many situations like I listed the youth are so manipulated by those that have influenced them that they are unable to break free from those influences.

     
  • Manuel Martinez posted at 4:06 pm on Sun, Aug 21, 2011.

    Manuel Martinez Posts: 641

    Robert Chapman posted at 3:34 pm on Sun, Aug 21, 2011.
    "Mr. Docktor is an adult not an innocent impressionable child."

    Anyone else giggle uncontrollably?

     
  • Manuel Martinez posted at 4:05 pm on Sun, Aug 21, 2011.

    Manuel Martinez Posts: 641

    Darrell Baumbach posted at 1:28 pm on Sun, Aug 21, 2011.
    "Manuel maintains his perfect record of seeing what he wants to see and ignoring what does not fit his reality.
    You changed my scenario to fit your thinking.
    I said the priest would attend as adviser... did not say he would be a moderator... just as the teacher “claims” to not teach and is simply an independent adviser. Therefore, your thinking is flawed .

    Your last point is also wrong. I am not comparing anything religious activity to sexual identity... I was only addressing the concept of an adult influencing a group of minor students who are meeting on school grounds. You alone are making that connection which in my view has nothing to do with my point or Ms Bobin's."

    How are you this thick?

    I explained to you that student groups are required to have an adviser, and that those advisers must be MEMBERS OF THE FACULTY. You cannot bring a priest and call him an adviser. Faculty members who are advisers serve as moderator in student groups so things do not get out of hand (either resulting in conflict among peers, damage to facilities or physical harm-liability). The scenario is maintained because Anaforian stands as the adviser and fills the roles I have hitherto described. You go further to assert that she is pontificating or influencing, without evidence. Have you had no experience with extra-curricular student groups on a public school?

     
  • Robert Chapman posted at 3:34 pm on Sun, Aug 21, 2011.

    Bob Chapman Posts: 997

    JOANNE posted, "Please, Mr. Docktor, go to a gay bar sometime and then relate your experiences there. If you tell me that you have suddenly converted to homosexuality, I will believe your theory. If you emerge unscathed and have retained your virginity, then you "have some splaining to do!"
    Mr. Docktor is an adult not an innocent impressionable child. Even YOU should see the difference that makes.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 1:28 pm on Sun, Aug 21, 2011.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405


    Manuel maintains his perfect record of seeing what he wants to see and ignoring what does not fit his reality.
    You changed my scenario to fit your thinking.
    I said the priest would attend as adviser... did not say he would be a moderator... just as the teacher “claims” to not teach and is simply an independent adviser. Therefore, your thinking is flawed .

    Your last point is also wrong. I am not comparing anything religious activity to sexual identity... I was only addressing the concept of an adult influencing a group of minor students who are meeting on school grounds. You alone are making that connection which in my view has nothing to do with my point or Ms Bobin's.

     
  • Manuel Martinez posted at 12:37 pm on Sun, Aug 21, 2011.

    Manuel Martinez Posts: 641

    Darrell Baumbach posted at 12:29 pm on Sun, Aug 21, 2011.
    "Ms Bobin.. good question. The answer is I do not have enough information and am not aware of this event. I do have a few thoughts though...

    A priest meeting as adviser on school grounds to pray with this group would be equivalent to a teacher being involved the the Alliance group on school grounds. If an atheist student attended this group and by the end of the school year suddenly the student found they were actually Catholic, because of this group, I would think the parent of this child would have concerns.
    What is your opinion is Bobin?"

    A priest meeting on campus as adviser to the group (to my knowledge, this is impermissible) would not be comparable to a teacher being adviser to a Gay-Straight Alliance because the latter only acts as a moderator and maintains the facility while the former actively leads students in a religious act. A student prayer group is only permissible when the students themselves are the ones that consciously and voluntarily engage in the act to the exclusion of authoritative influence.

    Which brings me to my next point, your analogy is once again flawed because you are comparing a religious practice, which is a conscious choice, to the development of sexual identity and acknowledgement of sexual attraction for which are immutable characteristics that are not influenced by coercion or pleading.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 12:29 pm on Sun, Aug 21, 2011.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Ms Bobin stated...If this is your belief, then do you object to the "Meet me at the pole" groups who meet in the morning before school to pray? Or is it that prayer is an acceptable concept that should be encouraged among "minors?"

    Ms Bobin.. good question. The answer is I do not have enough information and am not aware of this event. I do have a few thoughts though...

    A priest meeting as adviser on school grounds to pray with this group would be equivalent to a teacher being involved the the Alliance group on school grounds. If an atheist student attended this group and by the end of the school year suddenly the student found they were actually Catholic, because of this group, I would think the parent of this child would have concerns.
    What is your opinion is Bobin?

     
  • Manuel Martinez posted at 12:25 pm on Sun, Aug 21, 2011.

    Manuel Martinez Posts: 641

    You're engaging in a form of semantics. Ask the instructor if she meant "absolutely nothing is being taught"; "nothing part of the curriculum is being discussed" or if she meant "I am not pontificating my position in a bid to influence students meeting after hours."

    Likely, the third applies. Your insinuations remain baseless.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 12:18 pm on Sun, Aug 21, 2011.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Ms Bobin and Manuel... I did not say something is wrong because they meet, I said something is wrong if the teacher says nothing is being taught when obviously, something is taught. Had the teacher not stated that nothing was being taught, it would not have caught my attention.

     
  • Joanne Bobin posted at 11:11 am on Sun, Aug 21, 2011.

    Joanne Bobin Posts: 4488

    Please, Mr. Docktor, go to a gay bar sometime and then relate your experiences there. If you tell me that you have suddenly converted to homosexuality, I will believe your theory. If you emerge unscathed and have retained your virginity, then you "have some splaining to do!"

     
  • Joanne Bobin posted at 11:08 am on Sun, Aug 21, 2011.

    Joanne Bobin Posts: 4488

    Mr. Baumbach wrote: "However, if this is a tax payer public school where minors are entrusted to the employees of this facility, the adults have a responsibility to make sure any group that a child associates with is appropriate."

    If this is your belief, then do you object to the "Meet me at the pole" groups who meet in the morning before school to pray? Or is it that prayer is an acceptable concept that should be encouraged among "minors?"

     
  • Manuel Martinez posted at 9:25 am on Sun, Aug 21, 2011.

    Manuel Martinez Posts: 641

    Darrell, these groups are after-school; extra curricular. They exist because the state has an obligation to permit free speech and association among students when it does not conflict with the curriculum. An adviser(teacher) is required for any student group to meet on campus because a faculty member is responsible for the facility that each student group uses and must be watchful that cordiality is maintained. The students are the ones that congregate and discuss amongst themselves while the adviser simply acts as a moderator. In this sense, it is safer than if one were to discuss things with their peers beyond the watchful eyes of a mature adult. In short, I see nothing wrong.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 8:52 am on Sun, Aug 21, 2011.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Kasie Lahman posted at 8:50 pm on Sat, Aug 20, 2011...Love is love, it's that simple, I'm sorry that your hate or ignorance or fear or intolerance clouds your vision.

    I join Kasie's view that love is love and that all people should be appreciated and respected. However, I think Kasie is misguided if she thinks this conflict is about hate. This discussion can lead to truth and understanding, whatever that is . I think the accusation that people on this tread are hateful is counterproductive and discourages honest debate. I think Kasie's remark is unfortunate.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 8:30 am on Sun, Aug 21, 2011.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    K Lee posted at 7:49 pm on Sat, Aug 20, 2011...
    This Tokay Gay-Straight Alliance group sounds like a good place for students that need to talk.

    I think anyone who finds a save haven to discuss something they have questions about and want to educate themselves is appropriate. That is obvious. However, if this is a tax payer public school where minors are entrusted to the employees of this facility, the adults have a responsibility to make sure any group that a child associates with is appropriate.
    When a teacher says nothing is being taught, and this is on school grounds, something is wrong.
    Anaforian, who is a teacher at Tokay, seems to be very involved and influential concerning this group. This teacher represents Tokay High school. Parents who send their children to Tokay entrust the education of their child to her. This situation with teacher involvement crosses the line of this just being a place for students who need to talk... why else would the teacher be so careful to twice say no teaching is going on, when in reality, there is. I understand there is no lesson plan or formal classroom instruction... but there are others ways to "teach" informally.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 9:09 pm on Sat, Aug 20, 2011.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Manuel stated...Instead, I wait for other individuals to establish why something is wrong through objective thought.

    I believe you believe that Manuel... I know it comforts you.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 9:07 pm on Sat, Aug 20, 2011.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Mr Holmes stated...Screw saying it's my opinion, it is a FACT that there is nothing wrong/negative about being homosexual...

    I respect Mr Holmes opinion that he feels his opinions are facts.

     
  • Kasie Lahman posted at 8:50 pm on Sat, Aug 20, 2011.

    klahman Posts: 1

    "We are confronted primarily with a moral issue… whether all Americans are to be afforded equal rights and equal opportunities, whether we are going to treat our fellow Americans as we want to be treated."

    JFK said that in 1963 during a radio broadcast. I remember learning about the civil rights movement and thinking, wow, how did some people think that they were better than others? I would never be like that. Now, as a grownup, living in 2011, I see the same behavior, just different central issue. To be honest, I'm ashamed we even HAVE this conversation. As I raise my child in a world full of people who decided to give rights to some and deny them from others, I have hope that one day, he will be looking back at the glaring inequalities, and he will think...wow how did some people think that they were better, more deserving, than others? I know he will be just as ashamed as I am. Until then, I will contribute to the ever growing chorus of voices that demand equality for everyone. Love is love, it's that simple, I'm sorry that your hate or ignorance or fear or intolerance clouds your vision.

     
  • Kim Lee posted at 8:00 pm on Sat, Aug 20, 2011.

    Kim Lee Posts: 1798

    Kevin Paglia wrote, "If sexual orientation is just how you are born, then why do we persecute people who have a sexual orientation towards young people?"

    Kevin: Are you speaking of pedophilia? I do not believe that pedophilia is a sexual orientation. And we know that sexual acts on children retard their development, going on to cause many problems in adulthood, so this helps us know that it is not "right" for someone to molest a child. Agree? Two homosexual adults, that choose to be in a relationship with each other, harm no one.

     
  • Kim Lee posted at 7:49 pm on Sat, Aug 20, 2011.

    Kim Lee Posts: 1798

    Indeed, God does not make mistakes. This Tokay Gay-Straight Alliance group sounds like a good place for students that need to talk.

     
  • M Holmes posted at 6:31 pm on Sat, Aug 20, 2011.

    ManicMandy Posts: 1

    I opened a account on here just so I could comment on this. Although I know it will fall upon the deaf ears of the ignorant. I have to join in on the voices for equality for all. We live in a time where it is more important than ever to stand up for our fellow man/woman/trans whatever someone identifies as. Screw saying it's my opinion, it is a FACT that there is nothing wrong/negative about being homosexual. It is just a part of who a person is. It's not a birth defect, a mental disorder , or a choice. It is just a fact, some men fall in love with other men, some woman fall in love with other woman, and some people just fall in love with whoever inspires them to enjoy and live life. Big friggen deal. Seriously it is absolutely ridiculous that we are living in a time in this country where we deny anyone rights to a full and happy life based on who they do the down and dirty with. If you are going to stick whole heartedly to the word of the bible then no one should be eating shrimp or buy a fancy car. You can't pick and choose wich parts to live out. I'm sorry to all the people out there who had to live their entire lives in the shadows. There are still people today living a miserable life afraid to just feel the natural love they feel because hateful and ignorant people feel they need to hide away anything that makes them question their blind faith. If people have to accept that being a homosexual is natural in nature (including with humans) then they have to admit there may be misinformation that they based their entire lives on. Be prepared people, there are all kinds of unique individuals walking the earth. And people like me and my family are doing things each and everyday to encourage they come out into the light and enjoy their lives, while standing beside them to fight the fight until they have all the rights they deserve.

     
  • Kevin Paglia posted at 5:28 pm on Sat, Aug 20, 2011.

    Kevin Paglia Posts: 2050

    Sorry, Joanne, but in courts where it matters, a cheating spouse can lose kids and lose assets. There are two different states in this matter, fault and no-fault states. In the military if you are caught cheating you can be discharged, unless you are the Commander in chief. Adultery may not be illegal but it weakens your position in divorce court and can lead to losing a career, therefore you can be "punished" in a civil court for cheating.

    My mechanic (and once friend) in Springfield was discovered to have had multiple affairs on his wife. In Divorce court she was awarded all three kids with the judge citing the multiple affairs as an unstable environment to have kids. He also lost most of his friends in the divorce.

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 4:44 pm on Sat, Aug 20, 2011.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2850

    Joanne wrote:

    I guess we all know who Mr. Docktor will be voting for next year - the one candidate who has a stake in the "Pray Away the Gay" clinic.

    Just as that avenue is doomed to fail, so is praying that Mr. Docktor will educated himself and stop believing that homosexuality is infectious.

    -I've never been to a gay bar. But my common sense tells me you're dead wrong in implying
    gays don't try to influence non-gays into exploring the possibility they might be gay. And you cannot possibly prove every heterosexual going into a bar like this
    were unknowlingly closet gays.

     
  • Manuel Martinez posted at 3:40 pm on Sat, Aug 20, 2011.

    Manuel Martinez Posts: 641

    Darrell, I don't assume that something is right or wrong on the basis of scientific knowledge. That would be use of the is-ought problem.

    Instead, I wait for other individuals to establish why something is wrong through objective thought.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 3:20 pm on Sat, Aug 20, 2011.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Manuel stated...I gravitate towards scientific understanding as it gives a rational basis for making conclusions and for revising those conclusions

    I know you think it gives a rational basis for making conclusions, but I think it gives a false sense of right and wrong. Too many people assume something is fact because they have some scientific studies that support it as fact.
    I think science limits these people's thinking to what they perceive as absolute truth.
    Science is the"box" that you think in. If you could think out side the box, alternate truths will appear.

     
  • Joanne Bobin posted at 3:15 pm on Sat, Aug 20, 2011.

    Joanne Bobin Posts: 4488

    I guess we all know who Mr. Docktor will be voting for next year - the one candidate who has a stake in the "Pray Away the Gay" clinic.

    Just as that avenue is doomed to fail, so is praying that Mr. Docktor will educated himself and stop believing that homosexuality is infectious.

     
  • Manuel Martinez posted at 3:12 pm on Sat, Aug 20, 2011.

    Manuel Martinez Posts: 641

    If you were arguing that I do not consider homosexuality to be a psychological disorder merely because psychologists, psychiatrists and specialists do not consider it to be one, then I guess I can correct you in this manner:

    My argument here is not that it is not a psychological disorder because specialist A says it isn't, that would be argument by authority. What I did here was to rebut Brian's claim that the science had concluded that homosexuality is a psychological disorder. By demonstrating that the scientific community does not accept this conclusion and that the studies done over the course of numerous decades have rebuked this claim, it serves to establish Brian's conclusion as erroneous.

     
  • Joanne Bobin posted at 3:11 pm on Sat, Aug 20, 2011.

    Joanne Bobin Posts: 4488

    It is sad once again that, not having commented on this article, Mr. Baumbach feels the need to invoke my name. I was impressed with his comments up to that point, civilized as they were. I must REALLY bug you, huh?

    Mr. Baumbach stated: "Warner should be embarrassed." For what? For engaging in a civilized conversation about this topic? Without name-calling?

    FYI, Mr. Paglia - adultery is not punishable by civil law - in divorce court or otherwise. It is certainly taken into consideration as a reason for requesting a divorce. Perhaps you are confusing that with Catholic law or other religion's laws?

     
  • Manuel Martinez posted at 3:04 pm on Sat, Aug 20, 2011.

    Manuel Martinez Posts: 641

    Darrell, I have personal opinions as well, I simply do not deem them to be permissible when making a statement on truth. I acknowledge with the highest form of skepticism that any one of my personal beliefs may be wrong, and so, I gravitate towards scientific understanding as it gives a rational basis for making conclusions and for revising those conclusions when new threads of evidence and observation are introduced. It is the only thing permissible in debate because it is objective rather than subjective.

    You know this protocol, and it is fruitless (by now) to bring up this difference between you and I.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 2:49 pm on Sat, Aug 20, 2011.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Manuel stated...No. Psychologists, psychiatrists, and other mental health professionals agree that homosexuality is not an illness, a mental disorder, or an emotional problem.

    Personally, my "OPINION" is that homosexuality is not an illness, a mental disorder, or an emotional problem. However, science and mental health professions have nothing to do with my opinion. I think depending on science for your opinion is short sighted. Science is one consideration. I think it is possible I am wrong, but in my opinion I am not.

     
  • Manuel Martinez posted at 2:15 pm on Sat, Aug 20, 2011.

    Manuel Martinez Posts: 641

    Brian Dockter posted at 8:16 am on Sat, Aug 20, 2011.
    "LNS wrote:
    'Rashid says that freshmen find the idea of homosexuality rather confusing. Last year, a couple of students in the Gay-Straight Alliance began the school year thinking they were straight, only to discover by the end of the year that they weren't, she said.'
    -How about that. Kids that thought thet were perfectly fine at the beginning of the year find out they are not by the end of the year. And then this Gay-Straight alliance wonders why people LIKE ME are suspicious of their agenda."

    Point of order, both heterosexuality and homosexuality can be described as fine.

    Second, it is false logic to assume that their initial identity as heterosexuals was peaceful and devoid of questioning prior to joining a GSA or that they were comfortable with it.

    Third, I was a member of Lodi High's Gay-Straight Alliance (...when it had one), not one time did we encourage someone to "explore". The entire purpose of a GSA is to provide a safe place for LGBT students and allies and provided resources so individuals can come to terms with their orientation or identity. Your insinuation that recruiting takes place is fatuous.

     
  • Manuel Martinez posted at 2:06 pm on Sat, Aug 20, 2011.

    Manuel Martinez Posts: 641

    It's cute that Brian feels the need to post the same responses on multiple threads. Instead of acting in kind, I'll leave the book recommendation on the other thread (for which he unjustifiably dismissed in favor of his own subjective stance and catholic dogma - as if they are comparable to scientific studies) and post the American Psychological Association's stance on the issue of sexual orientation.

    "Is homosexuality a mental illness or emotional problem?

    No. Psychologists, psychiatrists, and other mental health professionals agree that homosexuality is not an illness, a mental disorder, or an emotional problem. More than 35 years of objective, well-designed scientific research has shown that homosexuality, in and itself, is not associated with mental disorders or emotional or social problems."

    http://www.apa.org/helpcenter/sexual-orientation.aspx

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 11:41 am on Sat, Aug 20, 2011.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2850

    Mr. Sunderson,

    Science has proven pedophilia and homosexuality are psychological disorders. I don't see how one can be born with either of these psychological disorders. But I may have to retract my statement in the event you can prove you can tell a baby in the womb long enough they will be be born gay. Now, I don't know if we want to change the scope of this debate by including the power of suggestion.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 11:32 am on Sat, Aug 20, 2011.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Warner Sunderson posted ...There is no such thing as "the gay lifestyle...

    Oh my... Warner is displaying his bias and bigotry as to others that have a different "opinion" than he... You sound so dictatorial and and authoritarian in your comments. I know you are an educated intelligent person who believes he has a firm grasp of reality... however, there are others equally educated that draw different conclusions than you looking at the exact same data and research that you do. That is why you should be more tolerant of other people's opinion rather than lowering yourself in stature.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 11:24 am on Sat, Aug 20, 2011.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Warner stated...Mr. Baumbach, I do not see where I addressed you in any of my posts.

    Warner... of course you did. This is an opinion forum... this it not a private chat room. When you post something here, you are addressing all readers who form an opinion as to the content of your post. You should be more aware as to what you are participating in.

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 11:18 am on Sat, Aug 20, 2011.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2850

    Darrell,

    Good points.

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 11:16 am on Sat, Aug 20, 2011.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2850

    Mr. Sunderson wrote:

    Mr. Dockter, the club is not encouraging any illegal activities by minors. To state such is ridiculous.

    -You seem reluctant to address the issue of how impressionable a teenager is.

     
  • Warner Sunderson posted at 11:06 am on Sat, Aug 20, 2011.

    Warner Sunderson Posts: 53

    Mr. Baumbach, I do not see where I addressed you in any of my posts.

    There is no such thing as "the gay lifestyle" any more than there is such a thing as a "blue-eyed lifestyle", or an "Italian-American" lifestyle. If you believe that someone is "wrong" BECAUSE they are black, Italian, blue-eyed, or gay, then that is a prejudiced position. Do you think that society should be "tolerant" as you put it, of racists?

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 10:53 am on Sat, Aug 20, 2011.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Warner Sunderson posted at 10:01 am on Sat, Aug 20, 2011...
    unless scientific evidence and decades of research destroys the bigoted dogma you've accepted as some kind of Truth.

    I think it is sad that if a non gay person addresses their disagreement or opposition to the gay lifestyle, that inevitably the person speaking in favor of the gay issue accuses the other side of being bigots and wrong. It is why most people will not engage in a conversation with people like Ms bobin and Mr Sunderson. Warner should be embarrassed.
    I’m sure Warner has evidence he considers scientific and accurate in supporting his position. However, Warner still has to have faith that the science he refers to is accurate. It would be appropriate if Warner would be more tolerant of other people. He seems to be dismissive and condescending to me

     
  • Simon Birch posted at 10:21 am on Sat, Aug 20, 2011.

    Simon Birch - Online Manager Posts: 164 Staff

    Everyone:
    Thanks for the good comments so far, and for staying on topic and keeping the debate civil.

     
  • Warner Sunderson posted at 10:01 am on Sat, Aug 20, 2011.

    Warner Sunderson Posts: 53

    Kevin, educate yourself. Pedophilia is not a sexual orientation. There is no evidence that people are born pedophiles or polygamists. There is nothing scary about this, unless scientific evidence and decades of research destroys the bigoted dogma you've accepted as some kind of Truth. I guess that would be scary if science destroyed my religious beliefs.

     
  • Warner Sunderson posted at 9:47 am on Sat, Aug 20, 2011.

    Warner Sunderson Posts: 53

    Mr. Dockter, the club is not encouraging any illegal activities by minors. To state such is ridiculous.

     
  • Kevin Paglia posted at 9:46 am on Sat, Aug 20, 2011.

    Kevin Paglia Posts: 2050

    "Again, do you not respect decades of research conducted around the world which clearly confirms that sexual orientation is not a choice, but an immutable human trait"

    There is a scary ramification for your line of thought. If sexual orientation is just how you are born, then why do we persecute people who have a sexual orientation towards young people? Why are adulterers punished in divorce court if it is just their genetic orientation? And, again, why is polygamy illegal if it is just how they were born.

    I have no doubt that there are some people, probably a majority of gays, towards being sexually attracted to the same sex. I also believe that there is a small % of people who are "convinced" they are gay by social pressure per situations like the one I cited. Look at some of the stereo-types out there, Hollywood and society repeatedly makes jokes about if a guy likes show-tunes he must be gay. Or if he works in certain industries, he must be gay. Society and Hollywood have so indoctrinated our mindset that a guy can not even acknowledge that another guy may look good with out being called gay.

    And as for your studies. I have a very large amount of skepticism for any study done by the psychological fields. They are about as accurate as a 30 day forecast from the weather man, they may get some right but get more wrong.

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 9:41 am on Sat, Aug 20, 2011.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2850

    MR. SUNDERSON,

    There is no scientific or medical proof that one is born gay. It's all specualtion based on the findings of the proponents of advancing the gay agenda.

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 9:30 am on Sat, Aug 20, 2011.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2850

    Warner,

    You are sidestepping the whold point I am trying to make, that being, children of an impressionable age are more likely to entertain the thought of acting out in a way
    they shouldn't. And I don't see why the school would want to encourage any liable lawsuits by parents on the basis of aiding and abetting minors.

     
  • Warner Sunderson posted at 9:20 am on Sat, Aug 20, 2011.

    Warner Sunderson Posts: 53

    Mr. Paglia, you seem confused about the nature of sexual orientation. Again, do you not respect decades of research conducted around the world which clearly confirms that sexual orientation is not a choice, but an immutable human trait, the same as race, eye color, height, intelligence, etc. Human beings are born gay. They are not born fundamentalists or polygamists.

     
  • Kevin Paglia posted at 9:10 am on Sat, Aug 20, 2011.

    Kevin Paglia Posts: 2050

    Just a question: Why are gay rights pushed so hard for when Polygamy is still illegal? Shouldn't Polygamy be made legal now as well? Why are we discriminating against this group of people? Give them the same rights as other Americans.

     
  • Warner Sunderson posted at 9:09 am on Sat, Aug 20, 2011.

    Warner Sunderson Posts: 53

    Mr. Dockter, the school is not hosting a sex club. And yes, what I am stating is that sexual orientation is not something one choses. Every major medical and scientific association in the US and around the world has concluded the same.

     
  • Kevin Paglia posted at 9:09 am on Sat, Aug 20, 2011.

    Kevin Paglia Posts: 2050

    Warner: When I was in College I had a sociology class where they brought in a panel of gay and straight representatives. One of the gay reps said that the reason he knew he was gay was because he 'loved' his best friend. After a long time of struggling with feeling love for another guy he realized he must be gay, why else would he love a guy? Society teaches that love and sexual attraction are the same thing.

    So now we take the hypothetical HS freshman who has a best friend and feels strong care for. As part of the FM's attempt to do good he joins the Alliance. Now he is surrounded with people telling him if he has such strong feelings for another guy he might be gay and he should explore that.

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 8:56 am on Sat, Aug 20, 2011.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2850

    Warner,

    So you're saying someone at the very impressionable age of a Freshman would not start to question their sexuality if given the chance to investigate? As far as myself, I would have held firm that I am perfectly fine.

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 8:31 am on Sat, Aug 20, 2011.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2850

    Proponents of SB 48 seem to be a bit confused when it comes to what the definitions of progress and digress are.

     
  • Warner Sunderson posted at 8:26 am on Sat, Aug 20, 2011.

    Warner Sunderson Posts: 53

    Mr. Dockter, when you were a high school freshman, do you think that belonging to a group that includes straights and gays working together would have turned you gay?

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 8:20 am on Sat, Aug 20, 2011.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2850

    Anaforian wrote,

    "It doesn't mean we're teaching it or encouraging it, but we're not discouraging it," Anaforian said. "I don't recruit anybody."

    -Let me get this straight. She's not discouraging anything she's not encouraging.

     
  • Brian Dockter posted at 8:16 am on Sat, Aug 20, 2011.

    Brian Dockter Posts: 2850

    LNS wrote:

    Rashid says that freshmen find the idea of homosexuality rather confusing. Last year, a couple of students in the Gay-Straight Alliance began the school year thinking they were straight, only to discover by the end of the year that they weren't, she said.

    -How about that. Kids that thought thet were perfectly fine at the beginning of the year find out they are not by the end of the year. And then this Gay-Straight alliance wonders why people LIKE ME are suspicious of their agenda.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 6:55 am on Sat, Aug 20, 2011.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Article stated..."It doesn't mean we're teaching it or encouraging it

    If I approve of a group who forms a kindness alliance club, for example,that holds a meeting in a facility I control, to express their views on what kindness is and encourage people in their club to be kind and show kindness to others, I am doing a good thing. However, I would be wrong if I thought I was not teaching or encouraging people to behave in a way this club promotes.
    I think one must define what teaching and encouraging is before they say it is something that they do not do.

    I think the goals and intentions of this group are admirable. I support any group that has as its primary goal to make the world a better place. I am curious though why Anaforian said that no teaching is being done in light of the goal of the group as well as SENATE BILL 48 .
    Clearly there is teaching and encouragement taking place; there is desire to attend the San Francisco gay pride parade and one student who attended this group discovered he/she was gay... And Rashid said that "The school needs to “TEACH” that “they” have feelings, too."
    If you are creating and fostering an environment to do anything, there will be lessons learned. I am not making comment on right or wrong... just trying to define teaching and encouraging.

     
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