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Michael Kelly’s departure to Ireland causes court to be dismissed for the day

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Posted: Tuesday, April 17, 2012 1:19 pm | Updated: 6:23 am, Wed Apr 18, 2012.

Superior Court Judge Bob McNatt sent the jury and attorneys home Tuesday morning after word spread that Father Michael Kelly returned to his native Ireland.

Kelly, pastor the past eight years at St. Joachim’s Catholic Church in Lockeford, was subpoenaed to testify on Tuesday in a clergy abuse trial in which the jury has already found him civilly liable.

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  • Kim Lee posted at 12:56 pm on Mon, Apr 30, 2012.

    Kim Lee Posts: 1798

    Arabella Clark posted, "Lodi News today: http://www.lodinews.com/news/article_f305ce7d-5beb-5ea9-b67e-0c57e17709ae.html
    During testimony Wednesday morning, Vicar General Monsignor Richard Ryan, the second-ranking Stockton Diocese official, testified that a Bay Area psychologist recommended in a report around 2000 that Kelly be reassigned to a job in the diocese in which he wasn't around children and their families due to potential pedophiliac tendencies."

    What in the world can be done when the Catholic Church won't even listen to professionals that warn them of a possible pedophile in their midst? Is there no concern for the children at all? I don't see that this is ever going to change in our lifetime. It breaks my heart.

  • Ronald Brown posted at 10:50 am on Thu, Apr 19, 2012.

    gipper Posts: 116

    Welcome Ms. Clark!! Thanks for joining us again. What are the backgrounds of this psychologist that came forth? Are they (like you) someone you puts faith in repressed memory over physical evidence, reason and facts? What scholarly publications have they put forth in academic journals?

    Do you have the professional background and expertise to stand up for what this person put forth in a report? I forgot you are not a psychologist but just a simpleton that rabble rouses and acts as judge, jury and executioner. If you are something different, please let us know your professional background and training.

    If you read the report, Kelly did submit to what the Diocese reported. The tests were not for treatment of an illness or condition, but it was to examine if he had sexual attraction to children. When you read the report, there was no evidence of pedophelia in the report.

    I am still waiting for you, SNAP and others who have vetted Kelly from his time in Tracy until now for other sexual assault cases to bring forth other cases, and you have found none!!

    When Manly and SNAP were looking at other cases in LA, they could find several other people that corroborated the sexual abuse of the lead plaintiff that they represented. In this case, NO other people have come forward. With the civil case, what was found was the "roughhousing cases". These were looked at by the Diocese, and when the individuals were questioned under oath they said NO sexual abuse occurred.

    With the Calaveras and San Andreas cases, I could foretell (in previous posts) that they would come forward. I explained in previous posts how criminal law works in previous posts Ms. Clark. The 10 year rule will expire, and the one year window will soon expire with no credible evidence that will warrant a criminal trial. If there is evidence that a criminal trial should proceed (versus a civil trial), I recant my words.

    I agree with you Ms. Clark that all abuse cases should be looked at and examined.

    However, I believe that these cases will go forth under a civil trial. There will be no compelling evidence for police and authorities to move forward on a criminal trial. "Repressed memories" will come forward looking for their share of the diocese's money. Thanks to the "expert" on repressed memories and simpletons like you bogus theories like this will take great weight over physical evidence (or lack thereof), medical experts and polygraph tests.

    This system sure beats playing the lottery Ms. Clark!!

  • Arabella Clark posted at 10:15 am on Thu, Apr 19, 2012.

    Arabella Posts: 129

    Lodi News today: http://www.lodinews.com/news/article_f305ce7d-5beb-5ea9-b67e-0c57e17709ae.html

    During testimony Wednesday morning, Vicar General Monsignor Richard Ryan, the second-ranking Stockton Diocese official, testified that a Bay Area psychologist recommended in a report around 2000 that Kelly be reassigned to a job in the diocese in which he wasn't around children and their families due to potential pedophiliac tendencies.

  • Ronald Brown posted at 8:45 am on Thu, Apr 19, 2012.

    gipper Posts: 116

    Josh, thanks for the comments. I'd like to state the following:

    1) Yes, Fr. Kelly does have loyal people who have followed him and post here. But he also has those that who would like to see him held culpable (ex. SNAP) due to their anti-Catholic bias or for access to the money that the Catholic Church has. I agree with you that sexual assault/molestation is heinous, and all cases should be examined and when culpable the perpetrator(s) should be held accountable. I just expound to why people on this post do not talk about abuse in other religious traditions and walk of life and just about in the Catholic Church. I mentioned the case of Senator Scott Brown. Does SNAP and others who are against Father Kelly chase these other religious faiths and groups who have committed child molestation?

    2) Yes, the jury voted 12-0. I repeat that I find it hard to believe that they made the decision so quickly with so much expert witness testimony that was said. The judge said to look at witness testimony as being paramount in your decision. I find it hard to believe that a full discussion and decision could have been made in two hours when you would have had--an "expert" in repressed memory who interviewed the plaintiff, two board trained psychiatrists who offered vastly different views of the client's mental state, lack of any physical evidence of the case and the defense attorney who discussed in court and offered for both the plaintiff and defendant to take a polygraph test. The defendant was willing, but the plaintiff declined to do it on advise from counsel. It seems hard to fathom people discussing all this information and making a decision so quickly Doesn't it?

    3) I am glad that we have someone else who is dubious of the repressed memory test besides Mr. Brumbach and myself. I find it hard to believe that someone could remember graphic details about the assault and where it happened, and tell a different version of when event occurred when under deposition in a criminal investigation and when oath in this trial. But under "repressed memory" that is not important. I laugh at those who hold up this theory, but NO one has mentioned the testimony of Dr. Kuo who testified for the plaintiff.
    Dr. Kuo has a MD from Johns Hopkins and is a clincal professor at UCSF. For SNAP and its surrogates, I thought you would have put more weight on her testimony versus the "expert" on repressed memory.
    I think they do not mention this because Dr. Bodkin countered her argument in court, and she did not read his findings and observations on the plaintiff. Dr. Bodkin (along with several other psychiatrists) had an academic article in a leading medical journal that counters repressed memory. Medical articles published like this are published on years of research, and are based on FACTS and REASON. it is not based on personal feeling. Dr. Bodkin has superb credentials having an MD from Yale and being a Professor at Harvard Medical School.
    People forget that Dr. Kuo when cross-examined by Kelly's lawyers states under oath that she did NOT read Bodkin's report of the plaintiff that was attached to the plaintiff's case file and could not accurately say if her observations and diagnosis of the client's mental state was 100% correct without looking at Bodkin's case report.
    Shouldn't this expert testimony alone have taken more than two hours to discuss?

    4) People have discussed about the reliability of polygraph tests. Manly has stated openly in the court of public opinion that "a sociopath could pass this test", and other people on this blog use the APA's belief on polygraph tests. I counter to you that Manly's firm when investigating this under a criminal charge in the case relied upon the veracity of polygraph tests in which Father Kelly passed TWICE. This was never discussed in the civil case. Moreover, the Department of Justice and FBI, rely upon polygraph tests as ways of discerning truth in legal cases. I am attaching an article that states my case as Department of Justice lawyers are using polygraph tests on several of the Secret Service detail involved in the recent prostitution case in Columbia. If the Department of Justice lawyers rely upon this to determine the truth, I think it would provide a pretty good measure of veracity in this trial or other cases where people want to discern the truth. I believe Manly did not let his client take this (as defense was willing to pay his costs) as information from the polygraph test might discredit his client's emotional testimony.
    It is incredible to believe that we live in a day and age where emotional testimony and "repressed memory' can turn a trial versus the results of a test that is used among the government's top lawyers in legal cases.

    5) Yes, fresh cases are coming up in Calaveras. I believe they would as more people have "repressed memories" and want to cash in on the Diocese's coffers. I stated yesterday that to be tried criminally the incident must have happened within ten years or allegations to be filed with year with evidence to warrant a criminal trial.
    In these cases, the ten year statute is about to expire. The case filed in Calaveras is reaching its one year marker as the allegations were made in September. The police have no information to make criminal charges against Kelly at this point. With the San Andreas cases, they are obligated to follow up on any report/incident made to them. These cases too are being investigated, and there are no criminal charges. The one year marker will soon expire on these allegations, and the people who made these claims will only have the remedy of a civil trial.
    I am willing to bet there are more "repressed memories" that will come forward with no physical evidence and with hands out looking for the Diocese's money.

    6) SNAP and others who post do not mention that Manly and his team did a comprehensive scoping of all parishes where Kelly was at from 1979-present when preparing for this civil case.
    Yet, they could not find one other person who had complained about sexual assault by Father Kelly!! They brought up individuals who talked about the "roughousing", and their testimony under oath said that Kelly's actions were not at all sexual. Was this discussed by the jury during the two hour deliberation?

    As for the plaintiff, I reiterate yet again he will have no more repressed memories once he gets his large settlement from the Diocese of Stockton. It sure beats playing the lottery!!

  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 2:48 am on Thu, Apr 19, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    In my post at 12:13...

    Non repressed memory cases are more liable has evidence is fresh and more , no matter if is physical evidence or not.

    should have been...

    Non repressed memory cases are more reliable as evidence is fresh and not subject to the distortion time brings.

  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 12:13 am on Thu, Apr 19, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Josh... thanks for the comment. The intent and reasoning of my previous post was to claim that the statistic itself may or may not be be an accurate statistic but have little value either way. I think when you lump in all child molestation cases in one pool, it is misleading.

    Texas does not let any repressed memory cases in the court because it evidence cannot be substantiated... normally because of the decades of time lapse and that memories are more unreliable the longer time goes by. For example, a child who is molested and testifies within 1-3 years will be much more accurate than evidence 30 years old. I know the older I get, the more distorted some memories become.

    Non repressed memory cases are more liable has evidence is fresh and more , no matter if is physical evidence or not.

    I think we are treading on vary dangerous ground here and many people innocent will be jailed.
    If a person wanted to get rich, they could easily go under hypnosis and have memories planted in a series of therapies. Many possibilities. A devious high IQ type person could easily fake this with little downside. How do you prove he is lying about something that did not happen 25 years ago?

    I am blown away that any case could be brought to court after 30 years of time lapse and no physical evidence or witnesses. Sharia Law is starting to look better all the time.

  • Josh Morgan posted at 8:19 pm on Wed, Apr 18, 2012.

    Josh Morgan Posts: 542

    DB: "Lastly, your research on child molestation cases is not accurate."

    Darrell, please re-read my post. My research was taken from the Department of Health and Human Services. My statement was that most child molestation cases do not provide physical evidence. This is particularly true when the molestations take place years before it was discovered. I did not say that convictions were based upon repressed memory. And I wouldn't necessarily use Texas as my example of a system of justice that bends over backwards to be fair to defendants.

  • Lawrence Steinberg posted at 6:58 pm on Wed, Apr 18, 2012.

    Lawrence Steinberg Posts: 65

    Father Kelly seemed like such a nice man. I really thought he was innocent. I guess he fooled us all.

    What I wamt to know is why the Calaversas County cases were kept hushed up. I think I would have thought about this business differently if I had known about all the other fvictims.

  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 4:35 pm on Wed, Apr 18, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Mr Morgan stated...Father Kelly has some very faithful and loyal followers that will never be able to come to terms with this verdict.

    That is most likely false... if actual evidence other than repressed memories came out, or if the plaintiff released 2 independent reliable lie detector tests saying he is truthful, there would be considerable change of support for Mike Kelly.

    There are also people like me, who never met Mike Kelly ( not a follower) . I am
    horrified at the thought that any man or woman could even go to trial over a repressed memory case that has ZERO physical evidence, no witnesses that said they saw the crime. Remember, not one witness testified the saw Mike Kelly do anything but tickle children while the parents were in the same room as Mike Kelly.

    Lastly, your research on child molestation cases is not accurate. There is a big difference between repressed memory cases and non repressed memory cases. The state of Texas does not even allow repressed memory cases in their court rooms... where as non repressed memory cases are done all the time when evidence of a crime can be substantiated. You can not substantiate a crime that happened 30 years ago when the only evidence is someones so called repressed memory.

  • Josh Morgan posted at 3:25 pm on Wed, Apr 18, 2012.

    Josh Morgan Posts: 542

    Having followed these blogs fairly closely I've formed some opinions:
    (1) Father Kelly has some very faithful and loyal followers that will never be able to come to terms with this verdict. (2) There are those who are very passionate and dedicated to the prevention and conviction of child molesters. (3) Child molestation is a heinous crime and should be prosecuted vigorously. (4) The jury was unanimous in their decision that found in favor of the plaintiff. (5) I am suspicious of repressed memories and wished that there was physical evidence provided. (6) After some internet research I've found that in most child molestation cases that there is no physical evidence. (7) Am I convinced that juries are correct 100% of the time - No. Do I believe in the jury system - Yes. (8) Do I believe lie detector tests are alway accurate - No. (9) Has Father Kelly done himself any favors by fleeing the country in the middle of his trial - No.

    Conclusion: There are no winners in this matter......only losers.

  • Ronald Brown posted at 12:50 pm on Wed, Apr 18, 2012.

    gipper Posts: 116

    Ms. Clark, Here is more evidence that supports my point that the Irish government has just started to come down hard on child abuse of the Catholic church in Ireland. I can see why people who posted would be angry. The Catholic Church is popular right now in Ireland as a Wall Street executive is in the US. You really have to start reading more about what is happening around the world Ms. Clark.


  • Ronald Brown posted at 12:39 pm on Wed, Apr 18, 2012.

    gipper Posts: 116

    Mr. Raynard, there was also a criminal investigation part of this case. The prosecuting attorney relied upon polygraph tests to be used as a valid test. The defendant passed both tests. I believe the prosecuting attorney was not Mr. Manly.

    Manly might be right that sociopaths could pass this test. If Fr Kelly passed the test and his client passed the test, I think he might have a case. I think he had concern the test might show evidence that could be detrimental to his client.

    While psychologists do not find these tests credible, a fair amount of medically trained professionals (psychiatrists) and law enforcement officers (including the FBI) find them to be extremely effective.

    I find it laughable that SNAP and people who are against Father Kelly rely upon repressed memory (where the plaintiff contradicts the story of events) rather than other evidence as polygraph tests and two board psychiatrists who gave vastly different views of the plaintiff's mental state.

  • Treacy Elliott posted at 11:43 am on Wed, Apr 18, 2012.

    Treacy Elliott Posts: 77


  • Treacy Elliott posted at 11:25 am on Wed, Apr 18, 2012.

    Treacy Elliott Posts: 77



  • Ronald Brown posted at 10:00 am on Wed, Apr 18, 2012.

    gipper Posts: 116

    So Ms. Clark.. I was right. Your profession is rabble rouser. No professional expertise whatsoever.

    I did take a look at this, and people did post negative comments about Kelly. First, you ignore the context that Ireland has just undergone what America went through 10-15 years ago ( a large number of abuse victims coming forward). The current leadership in Ireland has been critical in the church's abuses over the last 20+ years. You should read a newspaper to see what is happening around the world Ms. Clark.

    In addition, the people who posted negative comments know nothing about the case. I bet they would laugh almost as hard at people like you as I do. For example, your belief in using repressed memory and emotional testimony to find someone liable versus physical evidence (none presented), refusal to take a polygraph test (administed by a former FBI employee who conducted this during his service) and two board trained psychiatrists who offer vastly different views of the client's mental state. Was this ever discussed in the article? It just had a link to the Stockton Record and one other news outlet regarding the case. It had nothing related to evidence in the case.
    Yes, I do read quite more than people like you. Since you talk about criminal acts, the statute of limitations is 10 years after the incident occurred or one year after it has been reported to authorities. It is past the ten years when the alleged incident occured, and we are getting close to the one year marker of when it was reported in Calaveras. This means that there would be no chance for a criminal trial and just room for a civil trial. The civil trial means money, and it brings back the question that I raised to the timing of when allegations were brought forward.
    Do not worry Ms. Clark. I reiterate the client's emotional state and repressed memories will go away once he gets his large settlement. Manly will get a nice new home and other material things, and other "repressed memories' will come forward for the share of the Catholic Church's money.
    At this point, these are just allegations (Modesto and Calaveras) that are being investigated. NO criminal charges have been filed at this point. I speak again until you have certain information (for example, when the Modesto investigation began, any other cases that have come forth in the time period when the plaintiff was assaulted) you stop your rabble rousing. It simply gives you a soap box to talk about your pompous and uneducated point of view.

  • Leanna Mattea posted at 9:30 am on Wed, Apr 18, 2012.

    posey29 Posts: 6

    Who is this Arabella Clark....a self appointed judge and jury, I would imagine.
    She claims to have all of the facts, where is she getting them? I don't hold any stock in what she is saying. Arabella....honey, you need to get a life here. You spend entirely too much time trying to get people to agree with your ramblins, because none of it
    is based on the truth. You have done your damage, so should go on to the next
    situation that pops up.
    Maybe you should put some of your self-gained expertience in counceling these poor victims of FR Kelly, if you can find any, other than this same plantiff, who will be fine, once he cashs his check!

  • Arabella Clark posted at 9:24 am on Wed, Apr 18, 2012.

    Arabella Posts: 129

    Actually you don't know that no victims have come forward between those times. In case after case of this sort, it comes out during the discovery process that victims had come forward over the years, only to be ignored.

    For all we know, the NEW victims that have come forward in the last two weeks may have indeed made a complaint to the church.

    I don't understand why you don't get an overview of how these cases work out. The Kelly case is just one small drop in the bucket of the myriad cases in this country.

    Instead of asking questions, go do some reading. You will find your answers.

    It's none of your business what my profession is by the way, and you're not going to get anywhere by continuing to ask me.

  • Dave Pierre posted at 9:22 am on Wed, Apr 18, 2012.

    DPierre Posts: 18

    Let the record show that Fr. Kelly was brutally attacked by contingency lawyer John Manly, a mean-spirited and venomous individual with a profound hatred of the Catholic Church:



  • Arabella Clark posted at 9:21 am on Wed, Apr 18, 2012.

    Arabella Posts: 129

    Look at the comments underneath the story in the Irish press: http://www.thejournal.ie/irish-priest-returns-home-in-middle-of-us-sexual-abuse-trial-421634-Apr2012/?new_comment=1&jUID=#comments

  • Arabella Clark posted at 9:21 am on Wed, Apr 18, 2012.

    Arabella Posts: 129

    Read the comments. Do you ever read ANYTHING? I just POSTED the link to the Modesto Bee that says detectives are interviewing new victims. Story was from April 17. The reporter quotes the spokesperson for the Sheriff's department.

    Reading comprehension is not your strong suit.

  • Ronald Brown posted at 8:58 am on Wed, Apr 18, 2012.

    gipper Posts: 116

    No comments from anyone in Ireland Ms. Clark. They simply state that he returned back to Ireland.

    You ignore my point that NO cases have come forward infrom the late 1970's to the mid 1980's (the dates on the alleged abuse occurred). In addition, there have been no other cases that have been alleged until the allegations in Calaveras. He has served in parishes in Tracy, Stockton and San Andreas. Yet no cases!! When cases start to emerge, let me know.

    I believe all allegations should be vetted, but I question the timing (as it came to light around the civil trial). In addition, the case has been looked at and no cases have been filed. Unless you have an inside source in the Calaveras police department that criminal cases will be filed in this or other incidents, I believe you should not comment anymore about this. What is your profession? Lawyer? Child psychologist? Rabble rouser? You are holding your forum in the court of public opinion.

    I believe the current plaintiff will get over his embarassement and repressed memories when he gets his settlement check from the Diocese of Stockton. Manly will have a nice home or two and nice new car for his efforts, and other "repressed memories" will start lining up to take their shot at the Diocese's deep pockets. It is better odds than the lottery....isn't it Ms. Clark?

    I guess with simpletons like you out there with your opinions and beliefs it is no wonder that repressed memory takes precedent over physical evidence (none in this case), polygraph tests (refused to take by the plaintiff) and board certified psychiatrists testimony. Did you even consider that the plaintiff contradicted himself to when the incident happened (under deposition and then in the trial)? But this is not important under "repressed memory" and your advocacy of it.

    Good day Ms. Clark.

  • Arabella Clark posted at 8:31 am on Wed, Apr 18, 2012.

    Arabella Posts: 129

    As stated, the victims who have come forward did not repress their memories. Every single case I have stated to you about pedophile priests and the interdependency of police and civil lawyers is germane.

    Did you bother to read what I wrote about how it works in these cases ? Hundreds upon hundreds of civil cases in this country have been written about in the media. Most male victims think they're the only victims and don't even tell their spouses. Instead of stating things here about which you know nothing, why don't you make a few phone calls to law enforcement in California and ask them how helpful civil cases are in bringing out victims within statute.

    Please really you need to start reading up on cases. Victims ALWAYS come forward after there is a news story about a civil suit. The Ayres case is indeed relevant; victims went to the San Mateo police about reading about the civil suit.

    Turned out some of these victims HAD told their parents or the Medical Board or children's services (and in one case, even the police back in 1987.) You will find that just as in all of the other cases, victims had been coming forward about Kelly but were disbelieved.

    Also, you clearly know nothing about how criminal investigations work. It took FIVE years of investigative work for the San Mateo police to arrest Ayres. It normally can take up to several years.

    Instead of blathering on here, you might want to read up how these cases work.

    By the by: it seems the Irish are not too fond of Father Kelly being in Ireland:


  • Ronald Brown posted at 7:58 am on Wed, Apr 18, 2012.

    gipper Posts: 116

    Yes, Ms. Clark, I am sure all the "repressed memories" will come forward. I am glad that you feel repressed memory theory is more credible than physical evidence, polygraph tests and testimony over board trained psychiatrists.

    You state examples that are not germane to this case. How many other cases have come forward in the time period that this incident has come forward? Zero!! During this time, Kelly was at parishes in San Andreas, Tracy and Stockton and not one case!!

    Don't you think it was ironic that the timing of these victims coming forward was coincidental with this civil trial? Also, the case has been investigated since September. What has the result been? No charges filed!!

    I am sure the plaintiff's repressed memories will go away once he gets his settlement check. Others are lining up at the door to get their hands on the deep pockets of the Stockton Diocese. It sure beats playing the lottery Ms. Clark.

  • Arabella Clark posted at 7:07 am on Wed, Apr 18, 2012.

    Arabella Posts: 129

    See Modesto Bee, April 17, 2012. Spokesperson for Sheriff's office says detectives are interviewing more victims and the investigation continues. Might want to catch up on your reading on this case.

  • Arabella Clark posted at 7:06 am on Wed, Apr 18, 2012.

    Arabella Posts: 129

    See Modesto Bee: new victims have gone to police. They are investigating. You think Kelly didn't know this? The only cases where I've seen priests flee the country in this instance are the guilty ones. Most though do act like adults and face the music.

  • Arabella Clark posted at 7:05 am on Wed, Apr 18, 2012.

    Arabella Posts: 129

    See Modesto Bee: April 17, 2012. Several more victims have come forward to sheriff's office and they are investigating. Additionally, criminal investigations can sometimes take years. It was five years before the police could arrest Dr. William Ayres in San Mateo County.

  • Arabella Clark posted at 5:41 am on Wed, Apr 18, 2012.

    Arabella Posts: 129

    Well, Manly is on to something about coverups. You are aware that in Philadelphia,Cardinal Lynn is on CRIMINAL trial for failing to protect children from pedophile priests, are you not? First criminal trial of its kind in the US and the Philadelphia District Attorney is going to win this case.

    Google the Cardinal Lynn trial. Educate yourself as to what is going on and has gone on in other pedophile priests cases in the country both civilly and criminally.

    Educate yourself that there is a mutual dependency between law enforcement and civil lawyers in these cases, and that information about victims is routinely exchanged between them.

  • Arabella Clark posted at 5:36 am on Wed, Apr 18, 2012.

    Arabella Posts: 129

    In Boston, Delaware, Illinois, Washington State, california, Minnesota, New York, and in EVERY state in the country- victim routinely give police complaints AND file civil suits at the same time.

    Wish people here would educate themselves on this issue. It's not as if the priest problem hasn't been in the forefront of the news since 2002. Geesh, the Boston Globe "Spotlight team" even won a Pulitzer Prize for their work on the pedophile priests cases.

    I also know that police and civil lawyers ROUTINELY share information about victims. I also know that in the Dr. William Ayres case, the San Mateo police captain INITIATED A CALL TO THE CIVIL LAWYER WHO GOT A SETTLEMENT FOR A VICTIM, TO ASK HIM TO LET HIM KNOW IF OTHER VICTIMS CAME FORWARD.

    Police rely on information on victims in civil suits to help with criminal cases.

  • Arabella Clark posted at 5:26 am on Wed, Apr 18, 2012.

    Arabella Posts: 129

    Good luck guys, harping on the repressed memory issue.

    You really need to educate yourself about the infamous "Father " Paul Shanley ( a member of the North American Man/Boy Love Association; subject of profile in Vanity Fair magazine) and convicted in Boston in a criminal case for many years. His lawyer tried to get the conviction overturned by challenging repressed memory. Didn't work: Massachusetts Supreme Court unanimously affirmed the conviction. Shanley is rotting in prison as we speak.

  • Arabella Clark posted at 5:20 am on Wed, Apr 18, 2012.

    Arabella Posts: 129

    Um, yes, they are being actively investigated. In the Dr. William Ayres child molestation case in San Mateo, (see my post above) the first victim went to the police in San Mateo in September 2002. The police did not ARREST Ayres until 2007. Do you have any idea how long criminal investigations take? Apparently not.

  • Arabella Clark posted at 5:16 am on Wed, Apr 18, 2012.

    Arabella Posts: 129

    Mr. Brown: You said, " I bet others will not come forward to raise criminal charges."

    You "bet "wrong. They've already gone to the police. When I say "they" , there's more than one.

    Also, did you read anything I wrote about the impact of the civil suit on the Dr. William Ayres child molestation case in San Mateo ? After the civil suit was filed in 2003 , dozens of men came forward to the police to say they had been molested. Five also filed civil suits.


    The above scenario played out in Boston more than a hundred times. Victims who went to the police ALSO filed civil suits. Sometimes they filed civil suits first and then went to the police. Sometimes they went to the police first and then filed civil suits. You might want to call the Boston Police Department's Crimes Against Children Unit and ask them how HELPFUL civil suits have been in bringing forward in statute victims for criminal investigaitons.

    I know that in the Dr. Ayres case the police captain in San Mateo called one of the civil lawyers to ask for help in getting names of victims and the lawyer cooperated. Gee, that's funny, the police captain had no problem believing the boy who filed the civil suit. He was empathic towards the victim and NEVER once stated that the boy had filed for money. Thanks to this boy filing a civil suit against Ayres, which resulted in dozens of victims coming forward, the San Mateo police were able to build a criminal case against Ayres and arrest him in 2007.

    The first victim to file a civil suit in San Mateo initially gave a police interview to San Mateo police in 2002. The police were all set to do a sting on Ayres, when the US Supreme Court decision, in June 2003, Stogner v California, knocked down the statute of limitations in criminal cases for many victims of child molestation . Because of Stogner v. California, the Ayres victim who had gone to the police FIRST was now out of statute cases for a CRIMINAL case.

    HOWEVER, the US Supreme Court ruling Stogner v. California did not affect the the one year window the California leglslature had enacted for CIVIL cases, so that victims who had been molested at any time, NO MATTER HOW LONG AGO could file CIVIL suits. Do you happen to know WHY the California legislature passed the one year window for molestation victims? The legislature enacted this law SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE THERE WERE SO MANY PEDOPHILE PRIESTS CASES IN CALIFORNIA AND THEY WANTED TO HELP THE VICTIMS IN CIVIL CASES.

    Again, to educate yourself on the interdependency between civil suits and criminal cases, and how the police rely on information from civil suits to aid in their cases ALL OVER THE COUNTRY- read "Our Fathers" by Newsweek writer David France.

    Have to say that people here are a bit myopic. Gotta look at what has been going down all over the country in this area

  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 1:55 am on Wed, Apr 18, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    To aid Mr Reynard in his quest for truth, I noticed that if the Kelly case had been in Texas, repressed memory would not be admissible in court... if entire states question the validity of repressed memories... if the mental health world is split on its validity, you wonder how a jury could so easily be swayed and could reach a decision in two hours after hearing days of expert testimoney... It is amazing that the case made it to court.

    n 1997, Judge Mansfield of the Texas Courts of appeal said, I believe that any testimony as it related to so called repressed memory syndrome in inherently suspect and should not be admissible in Texas courtrooms.

    Publication 805
    Texas Supreme Court, S.V. v. R.V. No. 94-0856, submitted February 6, 1995.
    Brief reviews current scientific understanding of the reliability of "recovered repressed memory," including the lack of any reliable test to determine the accuracy of a repressed memory. It also considers the applicability of discovery exception set forth by petitioner.
    Final Decision
    S.V. v. R.V. 933 S.W.2d 1, 39 Tex. Supp. J. 386, (Tex., March 14, 1996).
    The Texas Supreme Court held that in order to apply the discovery rule to toll the statute of limitations under any set of facts, including repressed memory claims, the wrongful event and injury must be "objectively verifiable" and inherently undiscoverable. After a thorough review of expert testimony and scientific literature, the court concluded that the scientific community has not reached consensus on how to gauge the truth or falsity of "recovered" memories. Therefore, the court held that expert opinion in this area does not meet the objective verifiability requirement for extending the discovery rule.

  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 1:33 am on Wed, Apr 18, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Mr Reynard stated...Here's what the APA has to say about memory as it relates to memory...

    I think this is off topic... we are talking about The Kelly case that was just finished. The onlt evidence was about "REPRESSED MEMORIES"... I was directly addressing this topic. Another report directly about Repressed Memories...

    Attitudes Toward DSM-IV Dissociative Disorders Diagnoses Among Board-Certified American Psychiatrists
    Harrison G. Pope, M.D.; Paul S. Oliva, Ed.M.; James I. Hudson, M.D., S.M.; J. Alexander Bodkin, M.D.; Amanda J. Gruber, M.D.

    Am J Psychiatry 1999;156:321-323.

    OBJECTIVE: The authors assessed the opinions of American psychiatrists regarding the diagnostic status and scientific validity of the DSM-IV categories of dissociative amnesia and dissociative identity disorder. METHOD: A one-page questionnaire was mailed to a random national sample of 367 board-certified American psychiatrists. RESULTS: Three hundred one responses were received—a rate of 82%. Only about one-third of respondents replied that dissociative amnesia and dissociative identity disorder should be included without reservations in DSM-IV; a larger proportion replied that these categories should be included only as proposed diagnoses. Only about one-quarter of respondents felt that diagnoses of dissociative amnesia and dissociative identity disorder were supported by strong evidence of scientific validity.

    CONCLUSIONS: Among board-certified American psychiatrists, there currently appears to be little consensus regarding the diagnostic status or scientific validity of dissociative amnesia and dissociative identity disorder.

  • Bruce Reynard posted at 10:05 pm on Tue, Apr 17, 2012.

    Bruce Reynard Posts: 60

    Great point Baumbach! Thanks for reminding me!

    Here's what the APA has to say about memory as it relates to memory. I'll need your citation for the "ignores a majority of board-certified" statement though... mine comes straight from the APA official statements about the matter. :

    Several studies have reported high percentages of the corroboration of recovered memories, and some authors have claimed that the false memory movement has tended to conceal or omit evidence of (the) corroboration of recovered memories.

    Herman in her theory of recovery from chronic Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder writes that one of the major recovery stages is the remembering and mourning of the repressed material of traumatic events.

    "What we DO know is that both memory researchers and clinicians who work with trauma victims agree that both phenomena occur "

    "Some clinicians theorize that children understand and respond to trauma differently from adults. Some furthermore believe that childhood trauma may lead to problems in memory storage and retrieval. These clinicians believe that dissociation is a likely explanation for a memory that was forgotten and later recalled."

    "It's important to state that there is a consensus among memory researchers and clinicians that most people who were sexually abused as children remember all or part of what happened to them although they may not fully understand or disclose it. "

  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 9:58 pm on Tue, Apr 17, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    According to Lexis Nexis...

    The psychiatric and psychological community,, is divided over whether any reliable scientific support exists to validate repressed memories. 7 The concerns raised by the scientific community are paramount to the legal decision to admit such testimony at trial, and courts now must address whether to admit expert …

    However, in a Stockton court room, there are 12 jurists who have no concerns and did not bother to review expert testimony in detail. Just two hours... that is enough for a 12/0 vote to convict...

  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 9:36 pm on Tue, Apr 17, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Mr Reynard stated... polygraph tests are not reliable. Here's what the American Psychological Association (APA) has to say about Polygraph tests. Please pay attention to the bold areas - they're relevant: "Most psychologists agree that there is little evidence that polygraph tests can accurately detect lies."

    Interesting that Mr Reynard listens to what most psychologists say about polygraghs but ignores a majority of board-certified American psychiatrists when it comes to repressed memory syndrome.

    The concept of "dissociative amnesia" -- variously called "repressed memory," "psychogenic amnesia," or "traumatic amnesia" -- has fallen upon hard times. A majority of board-certified American psychiatrists believe that "dissociative amnesia" should not be included as an official diagnosis in DSM-IV, the diagnostic manual of the American Psychiatric Association.[1] Skepticism about this concept is even more widespread among Canadian psychiatrists.[2] The very term "dissociation" has recently been characterized as being "a creaky and imprecise 19th century metaphor . . . much in need of an overhaul, [and meaning] too many different things to different people."[3] Courts around the United States have repeatedly refused to accept the validity of "repressed" and "recovered" memory (as we discuss below), while practitioners of therapies intended to recover repressed memories have watched in dismay as lawsuits and judgments against them have multiplied.[4]


  • Ronald Brown posted at 8:46 pm on Tue, Apr 17, 2012.

    gipper Posts: 116

    Ms. Clark, I bet others will not come forward to raise criminal charges. They will want their cases documented so they can pursue civil charges in the future. It seems after this recent case a fair number of people will have "repressed" memory and want to collect their share of the Diocese's future insurance limits.

    Once Mr. Manly settles the case for his plaintiff and there is a generous settlement, all "repressed" memories from the plaintiff will soon be forgotten. Don't worry Ms. Clark, I am sure there are plenty of "repressed memories" that need to be expressed. I am just glad that there is an "expert" who can testify to the validity of this hypothesis. This sure beats playing the lottery doesn't it Ms Clark?

  • Bruce Reynard posted at 8:27 pm on Tue, Apr 17, 2012.

    Bruce Reynard Posts: 60

    Salem Witch Trials... ✓
    McCarthy... ✓
    Lynch Mob... ✓
    Persecution... ✓
    Baseless Allegations...✓
    Standards of Liability... ✓
    Hysterical Media...✓
    SNAP Propaganda... ✓
    Poor Health...✓

    OOOH... Kangaroo Court! Nicely done! I don't think I've seen that one yet.

    Note to self: Add "Kangaroo Court" to standard list of overwrought excuses used by people who blindly support child molesters.

  • Bruce Reynard posted at 8:20 pm on Tue, Apr 17, 2012.

    Bruce Reynard Posts: 60

    Polygraph tests are not reliable. Here's what the American Psychological Association (APA) has to say about Polygraph tests. Please pay attention to the bold areas - they're relevant:

    "Most psychologists agree that there is little evidence that polygraph tests can accurately detect lies."

    "There is no evidence that any pattern of physiological reactions is unique to deception. An honest person may be nervous when answering truthfully and a dishonest person may be non-anxious. Also, there are few good studies that validate the ability of polygraph procedures to detect deception. As Dr. Saxe and Israeli psychologist Gershon Ben-Shahar (1999) note, "it may, in fact, be impossible to conduct a proper validity study." "

    "Evidence indicates that strategies used to "beat" polygraph examinations, so-called countermeasures, may be effective. Countermeasures include simple physical movements, psychological interventions (e.g., manipulating subjects' beliefs about the test), and the use of pharmacological agents that alter arousal patterns."

    "Most psychologists and other scientists agree that there is little basis for the validity of polygraph tests. Courts, including the United States Supreme Court (cf. U.S. v. Scheffer, 1998 in which Dr.'s Saxe's research on polygraph fallibility was cited), have repeatedly rejected the use of polygraph evidence because of its inherent unreliability. Nevertheless, polygraph testing continues to be used in non-judicial settings, often to screen personnel, but sometimes to try to assess the veracity of suspects and witnesses, and to monitor criminal offenders on probation. Polygraph tests are also sometimes used by individuals seeking to convince others of their innocence"

    That's why the polygraph tests were not admitted, and very likely just a ruse by the defense attorney to rile up folks such as you, who blindly support child molesters.

  • Bruce Reynard posted at 8:18 pm on Tue, Apr 17, 2012.

    Bruce Reynard Posts: 60


  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 8:13 pm on Tue, Apr 17, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Mr Manly's threats to those who may have helped Fr Kelly just shows what a salacious ambulance chaser he is...

    Maybe true, but I also have an additional point... maybe Mr Manly is taking a strategy the IRS takes... This government agency depends on striking fear in the hearts of people in order to manipulate and manage people's behavior. You are guilty until proven innocent in the IRS court...

    If people fear speaking out and supporting that which they believe to be true, people who use this strategy win without taking time, effort of money to accomplish what they want. If you do not speak out... they win. I have been accused of being a pedophile by two SNAP representatives. I believe they want to cause fear in all peoples hearts in order to help isolate the person they want to get...Mike Kelly... who holds the key to the money vault.

  • Ronald Brown posted at 7:34 pm on Tue, Apr 17, 2012.

    gipper Posts: 116

    I guess you are an attorney/expert Ms. Clark and an "expert" in repressed memory, and you know of other witnesses that very few people know about. I bet these claims will all be filed just in time for a civil case. Don't worry Ms. Clark. These individuals will bring their cases with "repressed memory" and try to collect their share of the Diocese's coffers.

    So since you know possible future possible future defendants Ms. Clark.....where did you graduate from law school and what experiences do you have in handling sexual assault cases?

    Don't worry Ms. Clark. If the diocese offers these individuals a settlement, it will be signed faster than Usain Bolt can finish a 100 meter dash.

  • Ben Sanacore posted at 7:20 pm on Tue, Apr 17, 2012.

    Ben Sanacore Posts: 106

    During the Salem Witch Trials, some people fled rather than be subject to the kangaroo court they set-up to persecute people. I doubt Fr. Kelly will return, but who knows. There is bigotry, as demonstrated by the unbelievable jury verdict, toward Catholic priests that I now seriously doubt any priest could get a fair trial in the U.S. under such baseless allegations and standards of liability that are further aggravated by hysterical media attention and SNAP propaganda. Fr. Kelly may have made the best decision given his detractors' lynch mob mentality, the Salem Witch Trial style tactics, and the McCarthy style tactics he has endured to the serious detriment of his health.

  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 6:17 pm on Tue, Apr 17, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    It is interesting that Ms Clark and other SNAP officials seem to have inside information "AS IF" they are collaborating with the plaintiffs lawyer. Why do you know of other official cases that no one else does Ms Clark? Why is it all you can say now... you are not shy about accusing others before the trial is finished... why quiet now?

    Disclaimer for Ms Clark... I am not claiming Ms Clark is committing a crime or involved with nefarious activities... since Ms Clark is apt to misconstrue what I type, want to be clear.

  • Arabella Clark posted at 5:39 pm on Tue, Apr 17, 2012.

    Arabella Posts: 129

    Ah, but you are mistaken. Others HAVE come forward. That's all I can say for now. You will find out more in time.

  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 4:51 pm on Tue, Apr 17, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    I can already hear the response... No Darrell, we are compassionate... we have compassion for the children these vile priests abused. We do not have compassion for priest who rape children.

    I would respond. I have just as much compassion or more for any child who was abused... But I do not believe Mike Kelly has been proven in a court of law to have done anything criminal. The civil trial award does not mean Mike Kelly was a criminal at all. Even Joey Piscitelli of SNAP stated that until Mike Kelly fled, he legally was not a criminal.

    I say you are not compassionate because you are so vicious in your attacks... yet, not one shred of physical evidence is known to exist..

  • Kim Lee posted at 4:47 pm on Tue, Apr 17, 2012.

    Kim Lee Posts: 1798

    I'm not surprised that Michael Kelly has fled the country.

  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 4:38 pm on Tue, Apr 17, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Hummm Ms Clark is calling someone a coward... He stayed for 4 1/2 years with
    facing false accusations, submitted himself to ridicule and scorn for all these years. He cannot defend himself as the is no physical evidence to refute. Just a repressed memory... if he was guilty has Ms Clark thinks, it still submitted himself to a lie detector test that could have shown his guilt, but instead it showed his innocence... this to me are acts of a brave man...and Ms Clark calls him a coward and other vile things in other posts.

    Obviously, Jesus had strengths that normal men do not. He should have stayed to be a target of daily verbal abuse and Manly's joyful hour in getting the millions of dollars so he could buy yet another Bentley... but he did not unfortunately.

    Father Kelly for sure is not Jesus... but he does have something in common with him.

    They both had false accusers who destroyed their lives. Father Kelly is no more...some would say he is already dead... Mike Kelly is all that remains. I am sure that happiness, joy and celebration will take place after all the millions are awarded.... and Ms Clark and others can continue pretend that Mike Kelly is a coward. How odd that they consider themselves compassionate people.

  • Ronald Brown posted at 4:09 pm on Tue, Apr 17, 2012.

    gipper Posts: 116

    Ms. Clark you are not at attorney nor are you a theologian so do not pretend to be either.

    As for the trial, read my posts that are grounded in FACTS of the case. These include but not limited to:

    1) Fr Kelly passed two polygraph tests during the criminal investigation of this case (not admitted into civil trial). His attorneys offered to pay for the polygraph test for the defendant, but it was refused by Mr. Manly. It was probably done so as it would have detrimented his client's own case. After all, the plaintiff had graphic details on the incidents and where they occurred, but he told different stories of when they occurred when under deposition and at the trial. This would have shown up in a polygraph test, but it was allowed to stand under the belief of "repressed memory".

    2) As you and others draw in Kelly with O'Grady, here are the facts. When O' Grady was accused, there were multiple cases of sexual abuse. Under the plaintiff's case that happened more than 25 years ago, there have been NO cases that have come forward during the time the accident happened (late 1970's-mid 1980's). Moreover, the "roughousing" cases were vetted and looked at by the Diocese. Both the Diocese and the individuals (who the prosecution questioned) said NO cases of sexual misconduct took place.

    3) There was a mountain of evidence to look in this case-- an "expert" on repressed memory and two board trained psychiatrists with dramatic different versions of the plaintiff's mental state. I have served as a juror on a civil trial Ms. Clark, and you are not allowed to discuss the case at all with fellow jurors until the end of the trial.
    It is hard to believe that the jury could have discussed the different points on all the expert testimony and made a decision so quickly. For example, the psychiatrists themselves spoke for two days of the trial. Tim Lennon ,(who posts for SNAP), advocated that the decision turned in the plaintiff's way due to his emotional testimony. The jury made an emotional decision, and they used the repressed memory hypothesis to support it. Did the plaintiff have any physical evidence to support his claim or just inconsistent repressed memories?

    4) One allegation of abuse has been made, and Calaveras County is investigating this. I just question the timing of this case as it was filed right when news of the civil trial was beginning. The Calaveras Police have looked into this since September, and there have been NO criminal charges have been filed Ms. Clark. This information will be used in a further civil trial as more "repressed memories" will come forward for the Diocese's money.

    As for the plaintiff, do not worry Ms. Clark. His repressed memories wil go away once he gets his settlement from the Diocese of Stockton.

  • Arabella Clark posted at 3:08 pm on Tue, Apr 17, 2012.

    Arabella Posts: 129

    Jesus never ran from his own trial.

  • Joanne Bobin posted at 2:38 pm on Tue, Apr 17, 2012.

    Joanne Bobin Posts: 4488

    Father Kelly should have asked himself, "What would Jesus do?"

    I guess we all know the answer to that.

  • Arabella Clark posted at 2:30 pm on Tue, Apr 17, 2012.

    Arabella Posts: 129

    Cowardly and selfish actions by a man "of the cloth."



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