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Civil trial against Lockeford priest Michael Kelly goes to court

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Posted: Saturday, February 25, 2012 12:00 am | Updated: 11:18 am, Sun Feb 26, 2012.

The lawyer for a man who contends he was abused by Father Michael Kelly of Lockeford says the man is a former U.S. Air Force pilot who had to give up his career because he was haunted by repressed memories of the abuse.

The lawyer also contended during opening statements Friday that Kelly has a history of inappropriately touching children dating back to the late 1970s.

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Welcome to the discussion.

86 comments:

  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 2:31 pm on Wed, Feb 29, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Oh my... It is interesting to sink to Steve/s level of thinking and method of drawing conclusions....
    Lets see...Steve used the word smokey... therefore, that is evidence and proof that Steve is smoking something that effects his ability to reason.. that it!

    Im getting the hang of it Steve. You are a good teacher.

    I used the word "urge".having to do with a feeling and Steve draws a conclusion of an actual action taken... Interesting game you play Steve. Its like participating in gossip

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 5:14 am on Wed, Feb 29, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Sigh... Now Steve is admitting having a thing with another board member... Sorry K lee , did not mean to expose something... hummm... sounds creapy.As far as growing a beard Steve, I suggest to have the curtesy of discussing that with the other board member.... she may object...

     
  • Steve Schmidt posted at 4:11 am on Wed, Feb 29, 2012.

    Steve Schmidt Posts: 2376

    Its my boyish good looks, isn't it? Perhaps I will grow a beard.

     
  • Steve Schmidt posted at 4:09 am on Wed, Feb 29, 2012.

    Steve Schmidt Posts: 2376

    Sigh.... now he is fantasizing about me having a "kinky thing" with another board regular. This is just getting worse and worse.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 1:08 am on Wed, Feb 29, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    K Lee and Steve stated...Ya, that was kinda creepy

    Odd... since I did not say I took a shower thinking of Steve... weird conclusion these two drew... Imagine... K Lee thinking Steve is intelligent when he cannot even interpret simple English appropriately... Maybe these two have a kinky thing for each other where they both appreciate the same odd things... I thought both of you were happily married... maybe not?

     
  • Kim Lee posted at 10:15 pm on Tue, Feb 28, 2012.

    Kim Lee Posts: 1798

    Darrell wrote, "K Lee... good to see that you still like the image of Tina Fey... fits your commentary well. Keep it up!"

    Thank you.

     
  • Kim Lee posted at 10:13 pm on Tue, Feb 28, 2012.

    Kim Lee Posts: 1798

    Ya, that was kinda creepy.

     
  • Steve Schmidt posted at 7:45 pm on Tue, Feb 28, 2012.

    Steve Schmidt Posts: 2376

    Darrell, you know I love you like an other brother from another mother but the idea of you thinking about me in your bath leaves me feeling a little creeped out.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 7:37 pm on Tue, Feb 28, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Steve... I disagree with you often and let me say, it rarely is a pleasure to engage with you. I always have an urge to take a bath after reading what you think.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 7:34 pm on Tue, Feb 28, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Kevin stated...Actually Darrell, as a Catholic I am going to come to Steve's defense, a little. When it comes to the predator priest and the complete failure of the leadership to deal with it early, the Church deserves to be held to the fire. If the individual situations were dealt with early on then there would not be the deplorable numbers of victims there are now. As I have said from the beginning those that are guilty should/need to be held accountable...

    Kevin, I wouldn't disagree with anything you stated above, except, I was not referring the the Catholic Church in describing the organization he was attacking... It goes without saying that Steve takes every opportunity possible to talk about the Catholic priests as rapists and other despicable thoughts which is why his kind of hatred is literally nauseating., .... I personally was not attempting to defend any one person... I was defending a situation. I truly believe that money is at the root of many evil acts and that in this case, father Kelly is being raked over the coals in pursuit of it. It is very likely that father Kelly will be convicted due to repressed memory syndrome even though it is very likely he is innocent. It is very likely that the plaintiff will become rich and his attorney filthy rich... I imagine that Steve's heart will overflow with joy and pride in seeing another priest suffer no matter if innocent or guilty.

     
  • Steve Schmidt posted at 7:08 pm on Tue, Feb 28, 2012.

    Steve Schmidt Posts: 2376

    Kevin, while I disagree with you on many of the issues here, let me just say that it is always a pleasure talking to you. Though we argue on much, I know that your posts will provide a fair fight and food for thought.

    Shame you couldn't work something about the Final Five into this conversation, you might have actually changed my mind.

    :)

     
  • Kevin Paglia posted at 6:21 pm on Tue, Feb 28, 2012.

    Kevin Paglia Posts: 2023

    "You attempt to defame and ridicule a respected organization ...why?"

    Actually Darrell, as a Catholic I am going to come to Steve's defense, a little. When it comes to the predator priest and the complete failure of the leadership to deal with it early, the Church deserves to be held to the fire. If the individual situations were dealt with early on then there would not be the deplorable numbers of victims there are now. As I have said from the beginning those that are guilty should/need to be held accountable.

    That said there ARE those who are jumping on the money train and trying to take advantage of the situation either by creating victims where there was not or by exploiting the victims. What is sad is that these attack dogs have done such a good job that even if/when people like Fr. Kelly are found innocent, they don't accept that justice was done. Only that a cover up was done or that more victims need to come forward. With the help of organizations like SNAP, some people will NEVER believe a priest is innocent after they are initially accused.

     
  • Steve Schmidt posted at 6:16 pm on Tue, Feb 28, 2012.

    Steve Schmidt Posts: 2376

    When did opposition to pedophilia become such a partisan issue?

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 5:45 pm on Tue, Feb 28, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    K Lee... good to see that you still like the image of Tina Fey... fits your commentary well.
    Keep it up!

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 5:43 pm on Tue, Feb 28, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Steve stated...Darrell, what is there to address?

    I guess your right Steve... if you decide to ignore every point that I made and insist on talking about irrational unrelated topics and bring NAMBLA into the picture, then there is nothing to talk about...

    You attempt to defame and ridicule a respected organization ...why? You are right... there is nothing to talk about with someone like yourself that is afflicted with hatred and bigotry of the Catholic church and anyone associated with it. Having a civil discussion with you is obviously not going to happen.

     
  • Kim Lee posted at 8:59 am on Tue, Feb 28, 2012.

    Kim Lee Posts: 1798

    Good posts, Steve Schmidt. And, as usual, they are intelligent, reasonable, respectful, well thought out and full of good ol' common sense. I enjoy reading your comments and responses. Keep it up!

     
  • Steve Schmidt posted at 5:21 am on Tue, Feb 28, 2012.

    Steve Schmidt Posts: 2376

    Darrell, what is there to address? I understand your claim, I don't think it is necessarily applicable in this case and, in the end, I think the jury will decide.

    The point that you seem to miss in all of this is that while these people claim that SOME recovered memories are unreliable, even NAMBLA Ralph in his heyday never claimed that ALL recovered memories are false.

    Ultimately, this will come down to an issue of credibility. Folks who have known the plaintiff for years say that this man, a retired Air Force officer, comes across as extremely honest. The Church, doubtlessly, will be compelled to hire a series of highly paid experts who make their living as witnesses for hire. Ultimately, though, they too will have to explain the role of pedophilia advocates like NAMBLA Ralph in the formulation of their theory. If they can't do a much MUCH better job than you have here, I imagine this will be an open and shut case.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 4:14 am on Tue, Feb 28, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Another well respected member of the Scientific Advisory Board for the False Memory Syndrome Foundation (FMS).

    Steve, Id say your position that this organization is not sound is quite silly...

    Rochel Gelman (born January 23, 1942) is a psychology professor at Rutgers University,[1] New Brunswick, NJ, and Co-Director of the Center for Cognitive Science

    Dr. Gelman is a member of the National Academy of Sciences,[1] winner of the 1995 Distinguished Scientific Contribution Award from the American Psychological Association (APA),[1] a Fellow of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences,[1] and a William James Fellow of the American Psychological Society.[1] She also serves as a member of the Scientific Advisory Board for the False Memory Syndrome Foundation (FMS).
    Dr. Gelman was featured on Closer to the Truth: Science, Meaning and the Future, a PBS series created, produced, and hosted by Dr. Robert Lawrence Kuhn.
    Research
    Dr. Gelman's research in developmental cognitive science works to uncover the ease with which young children acquire intuitive understandings of natural numbers and arithmetic, children's perceptions of separately moveable animate and inanimate objects, children's understanding that outcomes have causes, and how children learn words and conversationally appropriate ways of talking.[2] Dr. Gelman is noteworthy for her development of a Science-into-ESL program and preschool exhibit at the Please Touch Museum in Philadelphia

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 4:08 am on Tue, Feb 28, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Another respected member of the FMS Foundation Scientific Advisory Board

    Aaron Temkin Beck (born July 18, 1921) is an American psychiatrist and a professor emeritus in the department of psychiatry at the University of Pennsylvania. He is widely regarded as the father of cognitive therapy, and his pioneering theories are widely used in the treatment of clinical depression. Beck also developed self-report measures of depression and anxiety including Beck Depression Inventory.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 3:57 am on Tue, Feb 28, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Obviously, the Foundation for False memories has substantial members...for example...as listed below...
    Elizabeth F. Loftus (born 1944)[1] is an American psychologist and expert on human memory. She has conducted extensive research on the misinformation effect and the nature of false memories.[2][3] Loftus has been recognized throughout the world for her work, receiving numerous awards and honorary degrees. In 2002, Loftus was 58th in a list of the 100 most influential researchers in psychology in the 20th century, and the highest ranked woman on the list

    Loftus received her bachelor's degree in mathematics and psychology from the University of California, Los Angeles in 1966 and her MA (1967) and Ph.D (1970) in psychology from Stanford University.]
    Career
    Loftus is a Distinguished Professor in the Department of Psychology and Social Behavior, the Department of Criminology, Law, and Society, and the Department of Cognitive Sciences, a Fellow of The Center for the Neurobiology of Learning and Memory at the University of California, Irvine, and a Fellow of the Committee of Skeptical Inquiry's CSICOP Executive Council. She is also a Professor of Law

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 1:27 am on Tue, Feb 28, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Still waiting for the class clown to address to issue... you can do it Steve!..

    I know you have it in you. Just make a comment or two about the content and the subject matter... to refresh your memory, it is about false memories. so far, you are avoiding the subject with childish diversions... the foundation is substantial and like I said, members of the FMS Foundation Scientific Advisory Board now include a number of members of the National Academy of Sciences and Institute of Medicine: Aaron T. Beck, Rochel Gelman, Leila Gleitman, , Philip S. Holzman, Elizabeth Loftus, Paul R. McHugh and Ulric Neisser. The Scientific Advisory Board includes both clinicians and researchers.. so stop with the games and make a comment or two that has substance.

     
  • Steve Schmidt posted at 10:50 pm on Mon, Feb 27, 2012.

    Steve Schmidt Posts: 2376

    As for Freyd, to say that he denies the accusations made by his own daughter is to rather grossly mischaracterize his statements. What Freyd ACTUALLY said is that he was an alcoholic who acted "inappropriately" towards his daughter. She says that he sexually abused her, his position is that his "inappropriate" actions towards her were not abusive. Take this all in the light of Freyd's pal NAMBLA Ralph who thinks pedophilia is God's will and I think you get a pretty good picture of the Institute and its members.

     
  • Steve Schmidt posted at 10:45 pm on Mon, Feb 27, 2012.

    Steve Schmidt Posts: 2376

    Actually, Darrell, the Wikipedia page on the False Memory Syndrome Foundation describes NAMBLA Ralph as "founding member". The FMSF website itself describes NAMBLA Ralph as being instrumental in the founding of the organization.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 8:45 pm on Mon, Feb 27, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    According to wikipedia...
    Peter J. Freyd is an American mathematician, a professor at the University of Pennsylvania, known for work in category theory and for founding the False Memory Syndrome Foundation. Ralph Underwager was not the driving force of this organization.

    Freyd was accused of sexual abuse by his daughter Jennifer.[ Freyd denies the accusations. This case never went to court and was never a legal concern. The foundation has evolved into a respected organization ...
    Members of the FMS Foundation Scientific Advisory Board now include a number of members of the National Academy of Sciences and Institute of Medicine: Aaron T. Beck, Rochel Gelman, Leila Gleitman, Ernest Hilgard (deceased), Philip S. Holzman, Elizabeth Loftus, Paul R. McHugh and Ulric Neisser. The Scientific Advisory Board includes both clinicians and researchers. The FMS Foundation has no affiliations with any other organizations. It is funded by contributions and has no ties to any commercial ventures.

     
  • Steve Schmidt posted at 8:22 pm on Mon, Feb 27, 2012.

    Steve Schmidt Posts: 2376

    Chuckle.... well Darell, that just goes to what I have been saying all along. Why don't we just forget about your pal NAMBLA Ralph and leave this business to the jury?

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 8:05 pm on Mon, Feb 27, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Steve, a jury thought false memory syndrome was a problem as well... do you think they ( the jury) were all perverts as well? Keep playing the class clown Steve...it suits you well.

    Star-Tribune/March 17, 2001
    Eau Claire, Wis. -- A jury awarded $5 million in damages Friday in finding that therapists planted false memories in the mind of a former school teacher who accused her parents and brother of abusing her.
    The jury in Eau Claire County Circuit Court decided that the late Nancy Anneatra was a victim of abuse by the therapists, not her relatives. The jurors said the therapists, Dr. H. Berit Midelfort of Edina, Minn., and Celia Lausted of Colfax, along with Midwest Medical Insurance Co., should pay Delores and Tom Sawyer and their daughter' s estate $5.08 million.
    The case centered around the phenomenon of False Memory Syndrome. Supporters define it as a psychological condition in which a person believes he or she remembers events that have not occurred. Opponents say there is no such condition, but the term can be used to hide past abuse.
    Nancy Anneatra, then Nancy Sawyer, received counseling in 1984 from Lausted and a psychiatrist not named in the lawsuit.
    After a year of treatment, Anneatra, then in her 20s, accused her parents of physically and sexually abusing her as a child.
    The Sawyers denied the abuse, but Anneatra severed all ties with them and changed her name to make it difficult to find her. She continued to receive counseling and in 1987 came under the treatment of Midelfort.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 7:56 pm on Mon, Feb 27, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Steve... thank you for making clear my argument is sound. Since you have no comment or thoughts concerning false memories, your accusations are meaningless.
    Again, if you think the comments I posted are not accurate, please correct them... you must enjoy the status of class clown Steve, you continue to play it.

     
  • Steve Schmidt posted at 7:02 pm on Mon, Feb 27, 2012.

    Steve Schmidt Posts: 2376

    Darrell, he FOUNDED BOTH OF THE ORGANIZATIONS you quoted from! What does it say about your argument that you can't support it without citing this creep?

     
  • Kevin Paglia posted at 6:47 pm on Mon, Feb 27, 2012.

    Kevin Paglia Posts: 2023

    IF repressed memories ARE true then that means that there are thousands of accounts that PROVE that aliens are abducting humans around this country and the world.

     
  • Robert Chapman posted at 6:39 pm on Mon, Feb 27, 2012.

    Bob Chapman Posts: 997

    Yup, lots of money will make it all better.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 6:33 pm on Mon, Feb 27, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Steve stated...support your assertions with a link to a guy who thinks pedophilia is "God's will".

    Steve..you are being irrational and absurd. This man has resigned as you stated... he is not connected to the foundation... false memory is a serious issue and should not be treated with silly comments like yours that has absolutely no merit. You reduce yourself to the level of a clown by your focus on a man that has nothing to do with this concept. You may have a fond connection to this man, but I do not. I only referred to this foundation to discuss the issue of false memories.

    So are you disputing that father Kelly may be the victim of a false memory or are you simply being the class clown “AGAIN”?...

     
  • Steve Schmidt posted at 6:28 pm on Mon, Feb 27, 2012.

    Steve Schmidt Posts: 2376

    Seriously, if a case can't be made without reference to this creep and his little pet organizations, then a case can't be made. The use of these sorts of references only serves to discredit the user.

     
  • Steve Schmidt posted at 6:25 pm on Mon, Feb 27, 2012.

    Steve Schmidt Posts: 2376

    Darrell, do you agree with the following statement by your hero Ralph Underwager?

    "Paedophiles can boldly and courageously affirm what they choose. They can say that what they want is to find the best way to love. I am also a theologian and as a theologian, I believe it is God's will that there be closeness and intimacy, unity of the flesh, between people. A paedophile can say: "This closeness is possible for me within the choices that I've made."

     
  • Steve Schmidt posted at 6:23 pm on Mon, Feb 27, 2012.

    Steve Schmidt Posts: 2376

    Darrell wrote: "According to Philip S. Simmons... http://www.ipt-forensics.com/journal/volume6/j6_3_6.htm"

    LOL!!!! The IPT????? The Institute for Psychological Therapies?

    Darrell, surely you are aware that the IPT was also founded by Ralph Underwager, your friend who believes that pedophilia is the work of God?

    What's up with you and Ralph Underwager, anyways?

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 6:12 pm on Mon, Feb 27, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    continued...

    Molest claims arising through recovery of repressed memories represent a far more controversial type of false allegation. Improperly utilized therapy techniques that plant the seed of a memory, and then guide the patient through a reconstruction of events that may never have taken place, can result in false or distorted "memories" which are virtually impossible to distinguish from accurate memories of actual events. Although recognized as frequently unreliable by many leading professional organizations, such as the American Medical Association and American Psychiatric Association,17 these therapeutic techniques are continuing to spread throughout the country.

    The epidemic of false allegations of abuse has arisen through what psychologist and author Dr. Michael Yapko identifies as a generational proclivity towards finding someone else to blame for one's real or imagined failures in life.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 6:06 pm on Mon, Feb 27, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    According to Philip S. Simmons... http://www.ipt-forensics.com/journal/volume6/j6_3_6.htm

    One of the greatest tragic ironies in our judicial system is that the common paucity of evidence in support or defense of molest allegations often results in an unjust outcome in both actual and false molest cases. The lower standards of proof in civil cases allow civil fact-finders to determine that the lack of an adequate body of evidence in defense of a falsely accused individual is sufficient "proof" to hold the accused liable of having committed the molest. The higher standards of proof in criminal cases prohibits the fact-finder from judging guilt unless the accuser can provide corroborating evidence of the molest "beyond a reasonable doubt."

     
  • Steve Schmidt posted at 6:05 pm on Mon, Feb 27, 2012.

    Steve Schmidt Posts: 2376

    Darrell, if you want to talk about recovered memory, be my guest, just don't try to support your assertions with a link to a guy who thinks pedophilia is "God's will".

    What is next, a link to NAMBLA's website?

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 5:49 pm on Mon, Feb 27, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Steve again sadly side steps an issue by talking about one person instead of the concept...please think just a little Steve...according to Wikipedia... False memory syndrome is not recognized as an official mental health diagnosis but the principle that memories can be altered by outside influences is overwhelmingly accepted by scientists.

    Steve, have you ever had memories that you thought were true only later to find they were false... it is not a difficult concept to grasp. When we are asked to find a person in court guilty by relying on ancient memories of a 7 year old boy who did not remember anything until he was over 30, you have got to be skeptical.

     
  • Tim Lennon posted at 5:27 pm on Mon, Feb 27, 2012.

    timl Posts: 4

    Eliminate the statue of limitations. Have all the childhood victims of clergy sex abuse come forward.
    Have the Stockton Diocese open the books for all to see on all the credible accusations of childhood sexual abuse, those admitted to abuse, those convicted of abuse and those who have settled in court. Let us find the true scope of the widespread abuse of children and the systematic coverup by church hierarchy. Let us have full transparency. End the diversion of "recovered memory" have the bishop make full disclosure. The cowardly practice of coverup only demonstrates the moral corruption of the church hierarchy.
    Open the book!

     
  • Steve Schmidt posted at 4:32 pm on Mon, Feb 27, 2012.

    Steve Schmidt Posts: 2376

    The following is a statement by the founder of False Memory Syndrome Foundation in response to the question "Is choosing paedophilia for you a responsible choice for the individual?"

    "Certainly it is responsible. What I have been struck by as I have come to know more about and understand people who choose paedophilia is that they let themselves be too much defined by other people. That is usually an essentially negative definition. Paedophiles spend a lot of time and energy defending their choice. I don't think that a paedophile needs to do that. Paedophiles can boldly and courageously affirm what they choose. They can say that what they want is to find the best way to love. I am also a theologian and as a theologian, I believe it is God's will that there be closeness and intimacy, unity of the flesh, between people. A paedophile can say: "This closeness is possible for me within the choices that I've made." Paedophiles are too defensive. They go around saying, "You people out there are saying that what I choose is bad, that it's no good. You're putting me in prison, you're doing all these terrible things to me. I have to define my love as being in some way or other illicit." What I think is that paedophiles can make the assertion that the pursuit of intimacy and love is what they choose. With boldness, they can say, "I believe this is in fact part of God's will." They have the right to make these statements for themselves as personal choices. Now whether or not they can persuade other people they are right is another matter."

     
  • Steve Schmidt posted at 4:30 pm on Mon, Feb 27, 2012.

    Steve Schmidt Posts: 2376

    Not at all surprised to see Bangkok Darrell touting the False Memory Syndrome Foundation. I assume that he is aware that the founder of this group was forced to resign after making statements supporting pedophilia in "Paidika: The Journal of Paedophilia".

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 4:23 pm on Mon, Feb 27, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    The point is... just because someone thinks memories are real, does not necessarily mean that they are. After 20 years...anything is possible... in this case, who knows if his memories are real...or false... since the the case against father Kelly involves these so called repressed memories, this whole event should be suspect without separate concrete evidence. For Moody Andrew to state that repressed memories are reliable and are very common is very irresponsible.. especially when the person claiming the memories stands to gain millions of dollars... to discount the profit element is foolish.
    If you want to talk about what is common...lying to gain profit and/or money is very common.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 4:13 pm on Mon, Feb 27, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Legal Matters...http://www.fmsfonline.org/legalinterest.html

    When adult offspring started filing lawsuits based solely on claims of recovered repressed memories of childhood sexual abuse, they raised many legal questions in the courts, such as those related to the statutes of limitations and expert testimony. Later, some of these same people came to the opinion that their previous memories were false and were the result of a disastrous therapeutic program. They then began to file lawsuits against their therapists. In addition, some of the parents who had been accused filed third party lawsuits against their children's therapists. All of these lawsuits rest on the scientific understanding of repressed memories. Indeed, recovered-memory lawsuits reflect the broad problem of the relationship between the law and science. The papers and decisions in this section were selected to provide an introduction to some of the key issues.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 4:11 pm on Mon, Feb 27, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    According to the False Memory Syndrome Foundation.... Moody Andrew may not have his/her facts straight...

    http://www.fmsfonline.org/

    What are false memories? Because of the reconstructive nature of memory, some memories may be distorted through influences such as the incorporation of new information. There are also believed-in imaginings that are not based in historical reality; these have been called false memories, pseudo-memories and memory illusions. They can result from the influence of external factors, such as the opinion of an authority figure or information repeated in the culture. An individual with an internal desire to please, to get better or to conform can easily be affected by such influences.

     
  • Kevin Paglia posted at 4:10 pm on Mon, Feb 27, 2012.

    Kevin Paglia Posts: 2023

    On the statue of limitations:

    http://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/california-statute-of-limitations-on-sexual-abuse.html

     
  • Kevin Paglia posted at 4:07 pm on Mon, Feb 27, 2012.

    Kevin Paglia Posts: 2023

    "This diocese has a history of moving and protecting priests. That is why the O'Grady case is relevant."

    Islam has a history of producing terrorists, should we treat all muslims as potential terrorists?

    "3rd, repressed memories are reliable and are very common"

    Not according to most experts.

    "Later in life, oftentimes a trigger - be it an experience or another trauma -brings the old memory back"

    In the case of 300 PROVEN innocent priests it looks like that trauma was needing more money.

    "In fact there is a criminal case pending against this same priest by another person."

    And the San Joaquin County District Attorney's Office never found enough to charge Fr. Kelly. Calaveras County Sheriff's Office is investigating another claim, but not enough to bring charges yet.

    As I have said, any priest PROVEN to have abused childern should face the full force of the law. Just as any false accusers AND THEIR LAWYERS/PSYCHOLOGISTS should face attempted fraud charges. 300 priests and those that support them have had their lives turned upside down by people out to get a quick buck. Where is the outcry against those preditors of priests?

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 4:06 pm on Mon, Feb 27, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    K Lee stated...It's so sad to see this happen again in the Catholic Church...

    Again... sorry Klee, nothing is happening aagain the Catholic church... this is a repressed memory case where somethind is said to have happened in history... and there is no evidence that it actually happened... just a 34 year old man that suddenly remembered something that supposedly happened when he was 7 years old.

     
  • moody andrew posted at 3:40 pm on Mon, Feb 27, 2012.

    moody Posts: 1

    Correction to some of the posts that did not read all the news articles and are making mis-statements. The reason this is a civil case and not criminal is that the statute of limitations has passed for it to qualify for a criminal case. Therefore, it is in civil court instead; that does not mean a criminal act did not take place. In fact there is a criminal case pending against this same priest by another person. 2nd, most males who come forward with history of childhood sexual abuse do not do so until their 40's - for apparent reasons: fear and shame. Not until they are adults do some finally decide they are strong enough to come forward. 3rd, repressed memories are reliable and are very common. A child who undergoes a trauma has a protective mechanism as it would be too painful and harmful to them to keep the trauma fresh, especially if they have no way to deal with it. Children abused sexually feel they have no place to go for safety or help; so it is very common to repress the memory. Later in life, oftentimes a trigger - be it an experience or another trauma -brings the old memory back. I'm sure most readers can understand those dynamics. This diocese has a history of moving and protecting priests. That is why the O'Grady case is relevant.

     
  • Joanne Bobin posted at 11:49 am on Mon, Feb 27, 2012.

    Joanne Bobin Posts: 4488

    Cover-ups...even the Pope himself has been tainted by the stench of covering up abuse in his homeland.

    http://www.pottsmerc.com/article/20120224/NEWS03/120229647/1009/updated-monsignor-claims-philly-cardinal-shredded-abusers-list

     
  • Kevin Paglia posted at 10:35 am on Mon, Feb 27, 2012.

    Kevin Paglia Posts: 2023

    "if the police were to find another body out in that vineyard but Wesley Shemantine swore up and down that he had nothing to do with the killing, would you be more or less inclined to believe him?"

    I would go where the evidence leads me. Just imagine how easy it would be for someone, knowing the Shemantine was dumping bodies there, to commit their own killing and throw the body there. Especially when there are people out there like you who believe close enough is good enough.

    If Fr. Kelly were found guilty of any criminal wrong doing in this case (which is, again, impossible because NO criminal charges have been brought) then I would fully expect the full force of the law be brought against him. But with over 300 priests around the country how have been accused and found innocent, I also want justice for them. The lawyers who take these cases and smear perfectly innocent men with horrible accusations are no better than the ADA lawyers who attack businesses. They are just in it for the money, not for justice.

    Where is the public outcry against those who are abusing the Church? Oh, that's right, even these 300 priests who are innocent of wrong doing themselves, according to those with Steve's mentality, they are still guilty just by association.

     
  • Kevin Paglia posted at 10:28 am on Mon, Feb 27, 2012.

    Kevin Paglia Posts: 2023

    I am still wondering HOW repressed memories are allowed into even civil court when they are so unreliable.

    http://www.fmsfonline.org/reliable.html

     
  • Kevin Paglia posted at 10:26 am on Mon, Feb 27, 2012.

    Kevin Paglia Posts: 2023

    Steve, again, this is not being tried as a criminal case, why? Because the lawyers know there is not enough (or any) evidence to convict Fr. Kelly of breaking the law. Instead they are attacking him in a court setting where emotions can win the case for you. Here is a brief blurb so you can understand the difference.

    http://www.civilrights.org/judiciary/courts/difference-civil-criminal-courts.html

    Again, if Fr. Kelly is so guilty then why are there NO criminal accounts being brought against him?

    Second: My faith is not in the Catholic church, it is in God and the expression of love expressed as Jesus. The Catholic faith tradition (things that are outside of man's power/weakness failings) thru 2000 years best fits what I have experienced spiritually. Maybe some day God will shine through the hate you have for the Church and show you the difference between the predators who used the church and those who where too morally weak to do something about it.

     
  • Kim Lee posted at 9:35 am on Mon, Feb 27, 2012.

    Kim Lee Posts: 1798

    It's so sad to see this happen again in the Catholic Church.

     
  • Steve Schmidt posted at 7:29 am on Mon, Feb 27, 2012.

    Steve Schmidt Posts: 2376

    Kevin, I think you have a very great faith in your Church. Sadly, I think think that faith is terribly misplaced. I pray that God will lift the scales from your eyes and show you that your trust has been dreadfully abused.

     
  • Steve Schmidt posted at 7:27 am on Mon, Feb 27, 2012.

    Steve Schmidt Posts: 2376

    Kevin, if the police were to find another body out in that vineyard but Wesley Shemantine swore up and down that he had nothing to do with the killing, would you be more or less inclined to believe him?

    The Church has conspired to obstruct justice in hundreds and hundreds of cases. Is it any wonder that people view their cries of innocence in this particular case with a healthy dose of skepticism?

    Fortunately, this case will not be tried here on these pages but rather in a court of law. That is, of course, an outcome that the Church has done everything in its power to avoid throughout the long decades that have passed since this unforgivable international atrocity first began to come to light.

     
  • Kevin Paglia posted at 7:06 am on Mon, Feb 27, 2012.

    Kevin Paglia Posts: 2023

    "The Church leadership's policy of moving rapists to fresh hunting grounds is well documented"

    And this is in no way meant to be a defense.

    I think there was a "no, his can't be happening to us" mentality. What is the old saying "pride goeth before the fall". In this case there was a case of pride by SOME bishops and other leaders who wrongly (and, yes, criminally) thought just moving the priests would make a difference. Refer to my sunday 5:05 posting for related thoughts.

     
  • Kevin Paglia posted at 7:01 am on Mon, Feb 27, 2012.

    Kevin Paglia Posts: 2023

    I seem to remember that when O'grady was arrested in Ireland he was using a false name. No one at the church KNEW it was O'grady. I am open to correction if that memory is wrong.

    Steve: Two points. First, this is going to civil court, not a court of law. Justice is not being sought in this case, only money. If the lawyers involved were so sure that Kelly had done something wrong then why are they going to a court where the burden of proof is much more relaxed than a court of law?

    Second: It is a little disturbing that if Fr. Kelly is found innocent then you would blame the Church for his ordeal and not the lawyers, SNAP, repression memory "therapists" or the people making the FALSE accusations. Do you often blame the victim for allowing a crime to happen against them?

     
  • Steve Schmidt posted at 5:05 am on Mon, Feb 27, 2012.

    Steve Schmidt Posts: 2376

    Darrell, O' Grady's words probably wouldn't be worth the paper he wrote them on if similar shenannigans hadn't been revealed in dozens of court cases from Boston to Seattle over the last 15 years. The Church leadership's policy of moving rapists to fresh hunting grounds is well documented, O'Grady's story only repeats what we already knew.

     
  • Steve Schmidt posted at 4:58 am on Mon, Feb 27, 2012.

    Steve Schmidt Posts: 2376

    Mr Farrow's response is somewhat misleading since O'Grady continued to work and volunteer with the Church in a variety of positions after his return to Europe including ones that put him in direct contact with children. At the time of his most recent arrest, as I recall, O'Grady was working at a Catholic parish in the Netherlands.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 3:10 am on Mon, Feb 27, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Alex Kennedy stated...He (O'Grady) details how he preyed on children, and claims Church officials knew about his abuses but protected him by moving him from parish to parish

    So this despicable man who did unthinkable things to children and was clever enough to get away with crimes for years should be blindly trusted by Alex to tell the truth about what he perceived the church knew and did not know.
    Maybe he is lying? Maybe he perceives that the church moved him around for the purposes he stated but maybe he is mistaken. The point is that Alex has selective logic and trust. She uses father O'Grady as an example of why father Kelly is guilty yet trusts him implicitly when his testimony is damning of the church...
    Maybe Alex should focus on the case of father Kelly and stop focusing on another case that is irrelevant to this one.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 11:18 pm on Sun, Feb 26, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Again... this case is about father Kelly.... to bring in O'Grady is silly and absurd, unless of course you are enthusiastically wanting to convict father Kelly by making a far fetched case that somehow there is a relationship between the church, O'Grady and father Kelly... some sort of Catholic conspiracy. No wonder Alex Kennedy so much admires the posts of Steve Schmidt.. two birds a of feather I think.

    I'm still waiting for Alex Kennedy to address her "feelings" about repressed memory syndrome and how we are asked to believe that the “only alleged “ abused individuals( related to father Kelly) are 2 people who suddenly remembered the events over 20 years after it happened.

    Since Alex insists on emotional connections to an unrelated case that has nothing to do with father Kelly, I am sure she will decline to respond to an actual important issue that is pertinent and relevant to the actual trial we are talking about.

     
  • Alex Kennedy posted at 9:50 pm on Sun, Feb 26, 2012.

    Alex Posts: 215

    From Wikipedia regarding the film Deliver us from Evil:

     He (O'Grady) details how he preyed on children, and claims Church officials knew about his abuses but protected him by moving him from parish to parish. O'Grady confirmed that his bishop knew that there were claims that he had abused children in 1976 and before, and that the diocese responded by transferring him to another parish.


    Almost 20 years passed from the time the first victim was assaulted to the time he stepped foot in jail. This was indeed the fault of the church for not doing something more substantial like defrocking him in the 70s or 80s

    I do stand corrected on the transfer to Ireland

     
  • Ross Farrow posted at 9:19 pm on Sun, Feb 26, 2012.

    Ross Farrow Posts: 104

    Alex Kennedy: Some points need to be clarified.
    Oliver O'Grady was arrested and served seven years at Mule Creek State Prison in Ione. He was paroled in 2000 by the California Department of Corrections and immediately deported to Ireland, where he was born. The Stockton Diocese did not "send him to Ireland." To answer your question on why the Catholic church didn't defrock him — they did defrock him. O'Grady was not a priest when he was arrested for possessing child pornography in Ireland. He was sentenced to three years in prison by an Irish court in January for possessing child pornography.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 7:15 pm on Sun, Feb 26, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405


    Alex Kennedy stated...O'Grady and Kelly come from the same Diocese. If the Dioceses had all that evidence against O'Grady why not defrock him or hand him over to the cops


    Responce...Police had been informed of earlier charges and had declined to prosecute...Is Alex suggesting that the police department should be held responsible convicted as well?

    There are many situations where enabling takes place. Enabling is a sad behavior. Should all people who enable others be convicted of the same crime that the perpetrator performed? Should a wife who enabled her husband to drink and drive be convicted of murder if the alcoholic husband kills someone in a DUI?

    This case is about father Kelly... engaging in emotional feelings and projecting Ogrady and this feeling on to father Kelly is inappropriate and harmful to the process to discover “truth”.

     
  • Steve Schmidt posted at 6:48 pm on Sun, Feb 26, 2012.

    Steve Schmidt Posts: 2376

    Kevin, the fault for this lies squarely with the Church leadership. When a massive international organization like the Roman Catholic Church devotes immense resources towards a criminal conspiracy to conceal some of the most heinous crimes imaginable people's suspicions are naturally inflamed.

    If Kelly is indeed not liable (and that is something that will be determined in a court of law, not the court of public opinion) then the blame for his ordeal will lie squarely with the Church.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 6:39 pm on Sun, Feb 26, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Elizabeth Charpentier posted at 4:40 pm on Sun, Feb 26, 2012...Over 95 percent of abuse allegations are true."

    There is absolutely no basis to prove such a claim. Very irresponsible statement. I could make an equality irresponsible statement that 95% of all convictions are suspect since large sums of money have gone to most of the plaintiffs, but I will not. Instead, I will say that each case should be carefully evaluated and scrutinized. Convicting an innocent man should not be taken lightly.
    I wonder how many people have been convicted of murder and later were found to be innocent by DNA evidence evaluated after spending time in prison.. I'm sure the crime victims were certain they had the right man and regretted the conviction after they found out the the accused could not have done it after all.

     
  • Elizabeth Charpentier posted at 6:30 pm on Sun, Feb 26, 2012.

    Elizabeth Charpentier Posts: 3

    Kevin, are you certain---very few???

     
  • Alex Kennedy posted at 5:53 pm on Sun, Feb 26, 2012.

    Alex Posts: 215

    O'Grady and Kelly come from the same Dioscese. If the Dioscese  had all that evidence against O'Grady why not defrock him or hand him over to the cops. Why did they transfer him to a different parish? And why, when new victims came forward with new allegations at the new parish, did the Diosces send him to Ireland where he victimized more kids? This cannot be the only time the church handled a known pedophile priest like this.
    By not defrocking/calling the police, they were guaranteeing that more children would be victimized making the church leadership complicit in his crimes. 

    And why settle so many cases  for hundreds of millions of dollars if these priests are wrongly accused?

    Also Kevin, I do not think most or even a lot priests are pedophiles. I do think that when pedophile priests were brought to the attention of church leadership they were not properly dealt with and as a result continued to abuse more children

     
  • Kevin Paglia posted at 5:12 pm on Sun, Feb 26, 2012.

    Kevin Paglia Posts: 2023

    Elizabeth: 95% of the abuse allegations may be true. That does not mean 95% of the preists accused are guilty. Very few priests have committed a vast majority of the abuse cases.

     
  • Kevin Paglia posted at 5:05 pm on Sun, Feb 26, 2012.

    Kevin Paglia Posts: 2023

    It is interesting (sad) just how many people are using the guilt by association argument against Fr. Kelly. "He must be guilty because he is a priest just as Fr. Grady was." Is that really the logic you are using? If so then there are many, many guilty teachers around this country who have/are abusing children. Where is the outcry against them? Non-existent.

    I have said it before, I believe every priest PROVED guilty should be defrocked, face jail time and lose all benefits of the church services. Any superior that knew but did not help the victims should face appropriate legal punishment as well as lose authority inside the church. Basically, the only way the Catholic Church will regain any respect of those outside the church will be for us to clean house.

    I am also very disappointed in the absolute dismal media admission that there are FALSE accusations. And these ruin lives. Lawyers and organizations that bring these false accusations need to face not only legal but financial ramifications for trying to fraud the legal system at the expense of the church. Organizations like SNAP attack priests, when was the last time they helped one falsely accused? Stood with them in front of the cameras to say "this man was innocent"? Never. Guess there is no money or glory in that.

     
  • Elizabeth Charpentier posted at 4:40 pm on Sun, Feb 26, 2012.

    Elizabeth Charpentier Posts: 3

    According to the synposium recently held at the Jesuit-run Gregorian University, Feb 8-9, 2012, it was stated "while the church has failed dramitically to respond properly to abuse by priest and religious in the past, there are signs of progress and hope---child abuse is criminal under canon law and civil law. Further, they stated, "the victim must be heard attentively, understood and believed, treated with diginity as he or she plods on the tiresome journey of recovery and healing. Over 95 percent of abuse allegations are true."
    Sending birthday cards to parishioners to garner support is ludicrous.


     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 3:47 pm on Sun, Feb 26, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Steve... have you ever heard that phrase... she doth protest too much? One might conclude that you have a hidden agenda in your irrational positions... it seems you protest too much... I wonder why? Maybe you could explain ...

    As far as you not refering to the Asian's physician size... not believeable considering your past posts.

     
  • Steve Schmidt posted at 3:34 pm on Sun, Feb 26, 2012.

    Steve Schmidt Posts: 2376

    Chuckle.... Darrell, first of all, I was not referring to their physical size.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 3:17 pm on Sun, Feb 26, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Steve Schmidt stated... I see Darrell is back from helping the little people of Asia..

    The "little people" Steve? you sound like a bigot.
    The "little people" as you say are kind wonder human beings that are smaller than normal because of malnutrition and poverty. I find it in poor taste that you would refer to other as “little people”.
    And thankfully no, I am not back in United States and am still blessed to be among people of kindness here in Thailand.
    As far as who is thankful for what, I am sure anyone who was falsely accused of anything might appreciate my position.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 2:58 pm on Sun, Feb 26, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Alex...Let me ask you another question... Is it not suspicious that the only 2 people in the thousands upon thousands of people who father Kelly came in contact with over the years that claim abuse are doing so under the “repressed memory syndrome” theory?
    We are asked to believe that the “only alleged “ abused individually are 2 people who suddenly remembered the events over 20 years after it happened. We are also asked to believe that the very old memory from a 7 year old child is accurate. My experience is that children's memories of events are very limited even one year later...but 20-25 years later? This attorney who is seeking millions for himself and millions more for his client is depending on emotion to convict. That is why it was predictable that the client cried uncontrollably in court opening day. It was perfect script to draw emotion from the jury. This lawyer knows what he is doing and is doing what he can to win... he does have a law firm in Newport Beach and New York that is very expensive to maintain after all. Very very expensive.
    I might believe this if there was other related evidence that did not result from repressed memory syndrome, but I am very suspicious when the lawyer who has won close to a billion dollars in settlements is involved . People have killed people for a few hundred dollars. There are millions of dollars at stake here.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 2:38 pm on Sun, Feb 26, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Alex stated...What makes you think all these accusations are false? Also if their so false, why does the church make settlements in the hundreds of millions of dollars to shut victims up...

    Alex... thank you very much for asking a very good question that really should be addressed. I think that people are reacting emotionally to the theory that abuse happened in this case because of abuse that happened in another.
    Let me reverse your question. If it turns out that father Kelly is innocent and that the plaintiff admits in court that he lied and was simply seeking millions in dollars in what he thought was easy money, would that then mean it reasonable to conclude that all priests were innocent and the billions of dollars that were awarded should be immediately returned?
    Obviously, what happened in other cases has nothing to do with this particular case. This case should depend on the facts and evidence presented and nothing about other cases has merit here. Father Grady is not father Kelly. That you associate him with father Kelly demonstrates my point of emotion entering the reasoning process here. This attorney is thankful you did what you did as emotion will win his case.

     
  • Steve Schmidt posted at 1:30 pm on Sun, Feb 26, 2012.

    Steve Schmidt Posts: 2376

    Undoubtedly, a few innocent priests are caught up in the gears of the massive rape machine that the Church constructed over the last few decades. They too are victims of this evil and pernicious conspiracy by the Catholic hierarchy to subvert justice, kindness and basic human decency.

     
  • Alex Kennedy posted at 12:07 pm on Sun, Feb 26, 2012.

    Alex Posts: 215

    Darrell,

    What makes you think all these accusations are false? Also if their so false, why does the church make settlements in the hundreds of millions of dollars to shut victims up? Why not fight out in court where the truth can come out and the plaintiffs would be forced to pay all court and attorney fees if they lose? There was nothing false about the Father O'grady accusations. He was never defrocked, the Church simply transferred him to where people did not know him or his history of pedophilia. In fact, he was just very recently arrested for child p.o.r.n. Do you think this is the only time a priest was transferred instead of prosecuted? If not, whose fault do you think that is?

     
  • Steve Schmidt posted at 10:02 am on Sun, Feb 26, 2012.

    Steve Schmidt Posts: 2376

    I think they are far, FAR outnumbered by the real victims. The Catholic Church has committed a sort of Holocaust against the youth of our world. As with any human system, earthly justice is imperfect but the rapists and the Popes, Cardinals and clergy that enabled this disaster will surely know God's perfect justice which will make Dante's visions look like a Disney movie.

     
  • Kevin Paglia posted at 9:41 am on Sun, Feb 26, 2012.

    Kevin Paglia Posts: 2023

    Steve: out of curiousity, what do you think of those who are bringing FALSE accusations against innocent priests and the lawyers, organizations and pyschologists who are enabling these false charges to ruin innocent men's lives?

     
  • Steve Schmidt posted at 7:16 am on Sun, Feb 26, 2012.

    Steve Schmidt Posts: 2376

    Darrell, it is most appropriate that you mention H-E-L-L since that is what these molesters and their pimps in the Church hierarchy put their victims through and it is where these rapists and those who defend them will surely burn for all of eternity.

     
  • Steve Schmidt posted at 7:14 am on Sun, Feb 26, 2012.

    Steve Schmidt Posts: 2376

    I see Darrell is back from helping the little people of Asia. The child molesters in the Catholic Church must be very grateful to have such a forceful and passionate defender.

    A man for all seasons, so to speak.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 8:54 pm on Sat, Feb 25, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    No amount of money can restore the innocence lost as a result of childhood sex abuse. If you are the victim of a sexual assault....

    Of course no money can restore " IF" it happened. Repressed memory syndrone is the perfect case "IF" it never happened in the first place... since its been so long, its hard to prove that you did not do it so many years later. IF this case is not proven and the jury says not guilty, does father Kelly have a case to sue? Most likely not... which means the up side to going after father Kelly is millions upon millions of dollads. The down side is very little risk even if he knows nothing happened in the first case.

     
  • Melanie Sakoda posted at 5:55 pm on Sat, Feb 25, 2012.

    Melanie Sakoda Posts: 16

    No amount of money can restore the innocence lost as a result of childhood sex abuse. If you are the victim of a sexual assault, report your abuse to the authorities. Don't suffer alone and in silence!

    Melanie Jula Sakoda
    Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests (SNAP)
    SNAP East Bay Director
    Toll Free Phone: 1-877-SNAPHEALS (1-877-762-7432)
    melanie.sakoda@gmail.com
    925-708-6175

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 4:46 am on Sat, Feb 25, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Is it any wonder that the best attorneys who are making billions in this lucrative venture of getting the Catholics and their deep pockets , are in Stockton where millions more are at stake... I wonder if Father Kelly has a chance in h e l l of defending himself again such a successful wealthy attorney who specializes in this field of legal expertise. I wonder if the crying scene in court took three days to rehearse, or four... if I were to get millions, I might develop a 25 year repressed memory as well.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 4:46 am on Sat, Feb 25, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405


    John C. Manly, Esq., and his legal team at Manly & Stewart have represented more than 150 clergy sexual abuse victims in California, including dozens of clients in the $100 million settlement against the Diocese of Orange, the $660 million settlement against the Archdiocese of Los Angeles, and the $198 million settlement against the Diocese of San Diego. In Alaska, Manly & Stewart has represented approximately 300 Native Alaskan victims of sexual abuse in a $166 million settlement against the Jesuit Order, as well as victims in the Diocese of Fairbanks.

     
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