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Stockton Diocese accused of cover-up in Michael Kelly case

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Posted: Friday, April 13, 2012 12:00 am | Updated: 7:38 am, Fri Apr 13, 2012.

Now that Father Michael Kelly has been held liable for sexual assault and removed as pastor of a Lockeford parish, his civil trial will focus on the Stockton Diocese's role in handling Kelly and other priests accused of childhood sexual abuse.

"The diocese made a concerted effort to cover up for Father Kelly," attorney John Manly told the jury in his opening statement on Thursday morning. "They value money, power and their reputation more than they do children. Ladies and gentlemen, that has got to stop."

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Welcome to the discussion.

53 comments:

  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 11:54 pm on Mon, Apr 16, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Mr Brown stated his and my perceptions, positions and thoughts much better than I. It best for me to simply say I agree with everything he said and appreciate the way he said it.

     
  • Ronald Brown posted at 7:58 am on Mon, Apr 16, 2012.

    gipper Posts: 116

    Ms. Lee, what other complaints? If you look at complaints from the same time that the plaintiff was in school, there have been ZERO complaints filed from former altar boys, students, etc where Father Kelly was a priest ( late 1970's-mid 1980's).
    In addition, the information that you use about the FBI is incorrect A former FBI employee who worked with polygraph tests was used to administer the test when charges were first brought against Kelly. BOTH times Kelly passed the polygraph test (evidence not allowed into court). Mr. Manly said that even sociopaths could pass a polygraph test. Possibly. Why did he not let the plaintiff take a polygraph test in the civil case when the defense would cover the costs? If the plaintiff passed the polygraph test about the incident, Manly might have had a case that polygraph tests are not accurate. I believe he was worried that there might be information in the polygraph test that could be detrimental to his client.

    He relied on the emotional testimony of his client (in which Tim Lennon who attended the case everyday and said was the turning point of the trial) to be the cornerstone of his case. The plaintiff's testimony (which is different when under deposition than at the trial) along with the repressed memory "expert" to come through with a 12-0 verdict.

    I am still struck on how a jury can reach a verdict so clearly when you have a psychologist who puts forth a controversial theory on repressed memory, and you have two board trained psychiatrists who offer vastly different view of the client's mental condition. Ms. Lee, I have worked on a civil jury before, and you are not allowed to discuss the trial until its conclusion. I still cannot grasp how they could have discussed and analyzed ALL this information carefully in two hours. How were they able to make a decision so quickly unless it was on the emotions of the trial?

    Moreover, if you talk about the "roughhousing" accidents you look that the incidents were looked into the Diocese, and under oath none of these individuals said that anything was sexual. Please send the link of the article again with the number of complaints. Did you mention this about the other incidents?

    The young man from Calaveras says that he wants to pursue a criminal case. If so, he is entitled to do so. But it looks like the Calaveras police have looked at this, and there is no grounds to pursue a criminal case. Also, I reiterate, why are there no further "repressed" cases of sexual assault from this same time period (late 70's-early 80's) when Father Kelly was at other parishes?

    Don't worry. After this case is over, he and all other "repressed memory" clients will come out of every nook and cranny filing suit against the diocese for their stake of the Diocese's coffers.

    In this current case, once the plaintiff gets his setttlement check his "represssed" memory will disappear. This system sure beats the lottery.

     
  • Arabella Clark posted at 6:56 am on Mon, Apr 16, 2012.

    Arabella Posts: 129

    How can you not be aware of some of the other victims? The papers have been reporting on one of them for the last year and a half. He was molested at St. Andrew's at San Andreas and went to the police some time ago. That's why they are asking for other victims to come forward. Go to the Stockton Record or Modesto Bee.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 8:07 pm on Sun, Apr 15, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Lastly Joey, you appear to have inside information that others do not have.

    Do you have information of any physical evidence of any wrong doing? For SNAP to publicly state that father Kelly was guilty of rape before the trial started to me was very inflammatory.

    I think all children should be protected from all people who wish harm to them. I want truth to surface. Are you aware of physical any evidence that can be examined? If justice is to be served, the truly guilty should be punished. However, with so many people giving public testimony that father Kelly was involved with their children for 15-20 years, and never saw anything but good things from father Kelly, its different to believe he is guilty.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 7:56 pm on Sun, Apr 15, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Thank you for clarifying K Lee... so what you are stating is the number of complaints you read in an article is your definition of "so many complaints.

    When it comes to the nature of the complaints, you are only referring to the complaints listed in this particular article.

    Now there is nothing left to the imagination in which rumor can be spread. Thank you again!

     
  • Kim Lee posted at 7:49 pm on Sun, Apr 15, 2012.

    Kim Lee Posts: 1798

    Darrell wrote, "K Lee, instead of adding fuel to the fire and the hysteria, please be specific... when you say "so many"... some might think you are talking 1000's... are you talking 2-5 o5 5-10- or what? Also, instead of leaving it to people's imagination, what was they nature of the complaints that you are referring to."

    Read the article.

    Like I said, I didn't realize that Michael Kelly had so many complaints about him from different people. Now someone here is saying that there is also an investigation going on regarding Michael Kelly and St. Andrew's in San Andreas.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 7:05 pm on Sun, Apr 15, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    K Lee, instead of adding fuel to the fire and the hysteria, please be specific... when you say "so many"... some might think you are talking 1000's... are you talking 2-5 o5 5-10- or what?

    Also, instead of leaving it to people's imagination, what was they nature of the complaints that you are referring to. It would be nice to actually have facts instead of feelings. Here we just had a complete trial, and "no physical evidence was presented" ... now, rumors are spreading without facts and you are contributing.

    Like I said, please be specific with facts so we can understand exactly what is being said. I would welcome anybody who had physical evidence to review so truth can be brought out and justice served.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 6:59 pm on Sun, Apr 15, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Ms Clark stated...You are aware that a number of other victims have come forward ( one VERY recently) and that some are within the statute of limitations, and none of them involve repressed memories and that the Sheriff' is investigating.

    I am not aware of pending cases Ms Clark. I have stated it would not surprise me if father Kelly is arrested in the future. When blood in is the water, the sharks all come out... I also said if evidence other than repressed memories that can be substantiated comes out as a result, that father Kellys support would then have to be reconsidered. However, to date, not one shread of evidence has appeared in court. If you have some, can you please post it as truth is always welcome.
    So far, all we have seen is accusations and repressed memories...

     
  • Kim Lee posted at 5:57 pm on Sun, Apr 15, 2012.

    Kim Lee Posts: 1798

    I didn't realize that Michael Kelly had so many complaints about him from several different sources over the years. And the diocese hired an FBI agent to investigate more allegations against Kelly? Wow! Sounds like this has been going on for quite awhile.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 3:31 pm on Sun, Apr 15, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Joey stated...So far, Darrell has called me mentally ill, and also said I was a rapist- in writing, on this forum for everyone to see

    Clearly Joey, you cannot comprehend what I stated. "I WANT TO MAKE VERY CLEAR THAT IN NO WAY WAS I CALLING YOU A RAPIST"..that is ABSURD just as I do not think father Kelly is a rapist. This was a civil trial in which he was found liable. This was not a criminal case. If a criminal case does come about and evidence other that repressed memories are presented that proves different, then I would have a change in heart.

    No, if you read what I stated Joey, I was not calling you a rapist.
    I was describing the technique you and SNAP personally used to attempt to convict people, guilty or innocent. You attempted to label me a Pedophile by associating me with known pedophiles and locations they go. I am amazed that you think it is ok to call me a pedophile. In fact, you are saying that all people who support father Kelly are somehow supporting pedophiles... speaking of slanderous ...I then said
    “IF” I did the same thing you did, I would associate you as being a rapist simply by you going to San Francisco. In other words, I was saying how absurd and ridiculous it is to call someone a pedophile or rapist based on the location they travel.... If you take it in context to what I was writing, I stating that you were helping to convict innocent men by using your technique. I then used the San Francisco analogy. That means “IF” I used your technique, I would be attemping to convict an innocent man... which is you.
    That is calling you innocent...not guilty. You missed my entire point and it is silly of you to think I was calling you a rapist... just the opposite. I think you are a bad person for doing to others what you would not want done to you. Unfortunately for father Kelly, he can not prove you are slanderous because there is no physical evidence .

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 3:05 pm on Sun, Apr 15, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Joey stated...Religious bigotry. Darrell stated in wrtitng that I am "mentally ill" because of my beliefs. This falls into the category of religious bigotry.


    Please be accurate Joey... I stated I do not believe witches exist any more than I do the easter Bunny. That is very clear. I am said that anyone ( not just you) who believes in witches might be mentally ill as I think they do not exist. How can I be bigoted about something I think does not exist.?

     
  • Arabella Clark posted at 2:46 pm on Sun, Apr 15, 2012.

    Arabella Posts: 129

    You are aware that a number of other victims have come forward ( one VERY recently) and that some are within the statute of limitations, and none of them involve repressed memories and that the Sheriff' is investigating.

    Good to see the moderator knocked out slanderous comments you made about me the other day.

     
  • Arabella Clark posted at 2:44 pm on Sun, Apr 15, 2012.

    Arabella Posts: 129

    Duh: some criminal cases aren't brought because THE STATUTE OF LIMITATIONS HAS RUN OUT. In California, the window to bring a criminal suit is very narrow. That's why lawyer Robert Allard in California is working as we speak to get the legislation to make the window for criminal cases to be wider for victims.


    Many victims come forward to the police first, only to find out that the statute has run out for them.

    Does anyone hear ever actually bother to educate themselves as to how the system works?

     
  • Arabella Clark posted at 2:42 pm on Sun, Apr 15, 2012.

    Arabella Posts: 129

    The victim in this suit went to the police for a criminal investigation. It was too late; the statute of limitations had expired. Like hundreds and hundreds of victims of priests all over this country in the same boat, the victim filed a civil suit.

    Law enforcement like civil suits because nine times out of ten, the publicity surrounding a civil suit brings out victims IN STATUTE. This means that the police can then embark on a criminal investigation. See the infamous Dr. William Ayres child molestation case in San Mateo, CA. Ten years ago a victim who had been molested by Ayres as a child went to the police. His case was out of statute. So he filed a civil suit. Guess what? When the press published stories, more than fifteen victims came forward. Some of them had made complaints to the police before. Although the victims were all out of statute, there were enough of them so that the police could prove to a judge that this was an ongoing pattern. They got a search warrant and guess what? They found victims within statute.

    This happens over and over and over. A civil suit yields in statute victims and then the police investigate.

    That is exactly what is happening now. The police are investigating a victim's claim that he was raped by Kelly at St. Andrew's in San Andreas in 2000. Look for more recent victims to come forward.

     
  • Ronald Brown posted at 11:40 am on Sun, Apr 15, 2012.

    gipper Posts: 116

    Joey,
    If he is guilty why did Manly not let the plaintiff take the polygraph test that the defense was willing to pay for? If his client passed, he would have a case that polygraph tests were unreliable. Until then, I view it as something that could have been detrimental to his client.
    Also, you rely on the emotional testimony of the plaintiff. Did you read the trial where he contradicts himself on when the incident occurred (when deposed and during the trial)? He was pretty graphic on the details and where it occurred. I would assume that it would be easy to remember which grade and year it happened. The plaintiff contradicts himself. The jury relied on the emotional testimony of the plaintiff and the "expert" on repressed memory (who said accurate details were not important) for their quick judgment.
    Do not worry Joey. I am sure the plaintiff's " repressed memories" will go away once he receives the settlement from the Diocese of Stockton.


     
  • Joey Piscitelli posted at 10:43 am on Sun, Apr 15, 2012.

    Joey piscitelli Posts: 23

    Facts, and laws always trumps opinion.

    1. Fr. kelly lost by a jury trial .It's adjudicated. It's fact. it's law. This overwhelmingly trumps Darrells opinion that kelly is innocent.

    2. Witches, Pagansm, Wicca, and Earth based religions exist, and are recognized by the US Government, and guaranteed by the !st Ammendment as a right under the constitution. .http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicca http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_usbk.htm
    This fact trumps Darrrells opinion that it does not exist, and that I am not a Witch.

    3. Religious bigotry. Darrell stated in wrtitng that I am "mentally ill" because of my beliefs. This falls into the category of religious bigotry.
    http://www.religioustolerance.org/relbigot.htm

    4.So far, Darrell has called me mentally ill, and also said I was a rapist- in writing, on this forum for everyone to see. These libelous statements are forbidden by the Rules of Conduct on this forum, as both of them are categorically and legally false. They are also grounds for civil action,and I am forwarding this to my legal representative.

    Have a nice day.

     
  • Ronald Brown posted at 10:21 am on Sun, Apr 15, 2012.

    gipper Posts: 116

    Joey,
    If he is guilty why did Manly not let the plaintiff take the polygraph test that the defense was willing to pay for? If his client passed, he would have a case that polygraph tests were rigged. Until then, I view it as something that could have been detrimental to his client.
    Also, you rely on the emotional testimony of the plaintiff. Did you read the trial where he contradicts himself on when the incident occurred (when deposed and during the trial)? He was pretty graphic on the details and where it occurred. I would assume that it would be easy to remember which grade and year it happened. The plaintiff contradicts himself. The jury relied on the emotional testimony of the plaintiff and the "expert" on repressed memory (who said accurate details were not important) for their quick judgment.
    Do not worry Joey. I am sure the plaintiff's " repressed memories" will go away once he receives the settlement from the Diocese of Stockton.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 6:27 am on Sun, Apr 15, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Mr Piscitelli stated...
    1. It doesn't hurt me Darrell, the way you want it to, because I'm proud of who I am.
    2. Meanwhile, you are angry because I, the Witch you despise, also won a major victory against the same Catholic Molestation Machine.

    Joey, you have an ego that is surprising. I do not care about you personally and think it a waste of time to be angry with you. I do not care if you you perceive yourself a witch. I am not a religious man and could care less if you have a religion as you claim. I do not despise something that I do not think exists. Your thought that I despise a witch that does not exist is almost comical and deserves a chuckle if anything.

    I hope you understand Joey, you more generate a yawn than anything else with you rants. They are insignificant to the topic here, which is justice.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 1:52 am on Sun, Apr 15, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Joey stated... you keep bringing up my religion …

    Joey, I am sorry, but I have no idea what you are talking about. Your religion?
    All I have stated is what you stated. You claim to be a witch. I respond by saying I do not believe in witches any more than I do the Easter bunny.

    Are you stating that you claiming to be a witch is claiming some type of religion? That by me repeating what you have publicly stated is somehow bringing up your religion? This is way too bizarre for me. Like I said before, I think all people who claim to be a witch may have mental problems since there is no such thing as a witch... religion????????

    Maybe another poster that is not a witch that you claim to be can explain what you are talking about, but it is above my pay scale.

     
  • Joey Piscitelli posted at 11:51 pm on Sat, Apr 14, 2012.

    Joey piscitelli Posts: 23

    Darrell Baumbach. You keep bringing up my religion, which has nothing to do with this case. It doesn't hurt me Darrell, the way you want it to, because I'm proud of who I am.
    I can see you're angry because Fr. kelly, the lying, deceptive child abuser, pedophile, who is proven to be 100% guilty, and now kicked out of ministry, is decomposing.
    Meanwhile, you are angry because I, the Witch you despise, also won a major victory against the same Catholic Molestation Machine. Wow, that's a double whammy. That must really hurt-- and worst of all, nothing you write or print will change anything.
    Absolutely nothing you do works. No insults, no clever comparisons, no pink easter bunny references, no witch hunts.
    Perhaps Fr. kelly can take a vacation in Thailand, to clear his "thoughts".I have read that many other convicted and guilty pedophile priests have vacationed there in the past. For example-Shanley, McGuire, O'Shea, and O'Grady have all gone there repeatedly, and they all have been found guilty of pedophelia, and defrocked.
    Have a nice day.
    Peace and magick to all who have triumphed against the clergy abusers- and those who protect them, and defend them.
    - A Witch who is a winner, and proud of his convictions---joey

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 10:15 pm on Sat, Apr 14, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Josh stated...Now we find the defendant has received therapy for similar incidents...

    Josh, can you please be more specific. The way you phrased it could be interpreted in many different ways. Are you certain it was “therapy” that he received? Can you cite exactly what the sessions were for, why it was done... when? If you and I are talking about the same thing, I understand that the defendant was asked to attend and complete an evaluation as a consequence of one family filing a complaint with the church ( more tickling in front of the parents). I thought it was normal procedure within the church by the year 2000 in order to meet the churches responsibility I understand as a result of the intensive evaluation, it was concluded that father Kelly was not doing anything wrong. That is quite a different picture than what you presented.

    Saying that someone has received therapy for an incident is very damaging without stating what the specifics are... then to follow it with this case smells after emphasizing the 12/0 verdict... in my view, is very irresponsible and adds to the hysteria. The entire case was built on one mans testimony of repressed memory. No physical evidence...zero...

    I think your comments are hurtful and add to the smell of the entire case. If you have more specifics that actually is verifiable information, I would love to read it as I like to get to the truth just as much as anyone.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 9:33 pm on Sat, Apr 14, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Josh stated...I was in that jury room so it is impossible to speculate whether the jury made an "emotional" decision or not...

    Maybe, but what is not speculation is the very short time that was spent in deliberation. The jury is not supposed to talk with each other about the case until deliberation. The entire case that took a very long time to complete only took two hours to complete... that included water break, bathroom time, and read backs. There were days of expert testimony... One could read a library of books on the subject matter expert witnesses testified to.

    When I was a jury foreman, we too took an initial vote and all of us thought the defendant was guilty...but in the interest of justice we decided to see if we had missed something. We took 60 minutes just to develop a time line We then asked for readings to clarify testimony there was differences of what each juror remembered. It took a lot of time...much longer than two hours and this was for a simple robbery case.

    We do know this, two hours is not long enough to deliberate if just a few questions were raised. We also know the plaintiff, his dad, his wife and the boy who testified about breaking a jaw, all were very emotional testimonies. We do have Tim Lennon who was in the court house who stated the turning point to the case was an emotional outburst from the plaintiff. ( Not evidence presented)
    In a repressed memory case where there was no physical evidence to examine, how could the jury not spend a couple of days reviewing the professional complex testimonies gives by expert witnesses, unless they were so emotionally involved that they did not think it necessary.

     
  • Ronald Brown posted at 3:37 pm on Sat, Apr 14, 2012.

    gipper Posts: 116

    Since you have sat on a civil trial jury Josh, I can assume you can see that rationality must prevail over emotion.

    Is it fair to say with all the questions that I brought up that should have been discussed? If so, there is a lot of information to discuss.
    You have two board trained psychiatrists with different points of view, a "expert" on repressed memory who puts forth a questionable hypothesis that was shown to be different during the plaintiff's deposition and statements under oath, and the plaintiff who did not want to take a polygraph test that would have been paid to by the defense. Manly spoke to newspapers saying that these tests could be manipulated. If Kelly and his client both passed the polygraph test, he might have a point. But we will never know.
    As you have served on a juror, don't you believe that all this information would have taken more than two hours to discuss? I think you could go on for two hours before even taking a jury vote. Am I right? It is a yes or no and no in between.
    The vote was made on the emotional testimony of the plaintiff whose testimony was upheld by the "expert" on repressed memory.
    No worries Josh. I am sure with all the money that he will get from the Diocese his repressed memories will quickly disappear.

     
  • Josh Morgan posted at 1:24 pm on Sat, Apr 14, 2012.

    Josh Morgan Posts: 533

    Ron, I think your questions need to be directed to Kelly's attorney, not me. I certainly don't have the legal background to answer your questions. By the way, I have been on a civil trial jury and our group was very independent thinking and took our jobs very seriously. Maybe that's why the 12-0 vote is so surprising to me. Neither you or I was in that jury room so it is impossible to speculate whether the jury made an "emotional" decision or not. I'd like to believe that the jurors took their jobs very seriously and did what they thought was right. The only fact that I was sticking to was the fact that the jury voted 12-0. Nothing more....nothing less.

     
  • Ronald Brown posted at 11:01 am on Sat, Apr 14, 2012.

    gipper Posts: 116

    Josh, You have never worked in a jury in a civil trial as a juror. I have. There are jurors that can influence and play role in swinging opinion one way or another. I ask you to answer my questions:

    1) Manly feels that polygraphs can be manipulted. Why did he not let his client take the test? If the plaintiff is telling the truth, he would be right. The polygraph test could be debunked likw . Either the plaintiff or defendant is lying. Why did Manly not let his client take the test? I think he realizes that the polygraph test would null and void the emotional testimony of his plaintiff.

    2) I reiterate my point. You do have emotional jurors that can sway people in the jury. I just question the length of time to make a decision when you have two psychiatrists who give vastly different views of the plaintiff's mental state. I believe in a rational sense this would have taken more than two hours to discuss the expert witnesses testimony and their vastly differnt viewpoints.
    Am I right to assume the decision by the jury was based on emotion rather than a rational look at the evidence? I believe the jury believed the emotional testimony of the plaintiff and used the "expert" witness of the repressed memory psychologist to justify their decision. The repressed memory theory is bogus. The plaintiff remembers where the incident occurs (graphically), but he cannot remember the grade it took place? He contradicted himself in his deposition and when on oath. Did the jury take a systematic look at this and debate this during their two hour deliberation?

    3) You are incorrect in that he has received therapy for similar incidents. Other people discussed "roughhousing", but they never said it was anything close to sexual assault. Did the jury discuss this during their rush to judgment?

    I ask you Josh to stick to the facts. If there is anything that smells, it is the injustice that was done in the quick jury decision without a proper deliberation of expert testimony (as warranted by the presiding judge).


     
  • Josh Morgan posted at 8:37 am on Sat, Apr 14, 2012.

    Josh Morgan Posts: 533

    I don't get it. The jury votes 12 - 0 in favor of the plaintiff. Even if half of the jury is unqualified that still remains a 6-0 vote. Not one vote in favor of the defendant?????? Now we find the defendant has received therapy for similar incidents. Guys/gals, I'm an outsider with no relationship to the church, defendant or plaintiff. This case smells.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 1:11 am on Sat, Apr 14, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Jim Howard stated...The blog here seams like people who are jealous of other peoples miss-fortune.

    No Jim, you are sadly mistaken. This is about justice...which in this particular case, father Kelly did not get. This is all about one individual case... the anonymous plaintiff against this particular priest. You however focus on generic cases... cases that have nothing to do with Father Kelly to link him to what you consider normal.

    You however are talking about an issue....when you stated Mr Manly is wealthy because the church keeps covering up, that is not an accident... I notice that you and other SNAP officials make comments that are in line with the stage the legal case is in... your main comment, you stated “ Top church officials have known and covered for this bad type of priest for many many years. “” and of course , the phase of the trial is exactly at the point of church liability... where the “MONEY” is. So of course, you want to condition people that all priests that are accused are guilty, and all church officials should have known and therefore liable... its like “ground hogs day” movie where it happens again and again.


    You are not making comments here about me.. you are making comments here to effect the legal outcome. Who knows, SNAP attends each day of trail and maybe has connections

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 11:23 pm on Fri, Apr 13, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Jim Howard stated... Oh Darrell, You know it not about money. What PR company do you work for or what spin doctor do you work for? Who hired you from the church?

    Jim... you are aware that the Catholic church alone has paid out two billion in settlements...RIGHT?... not about the money?

    You do know the plaintiff's lawyer is wealthy beyond dreams just off cases against the church... RIGHT?

    You do know that each person who wins gets a boat load full of money. RIGHT?

    If it is not about the money, do you think this lawyer would have taken the case in the first place?

    May I ask... what planet are you from? Not about the money... wow

    As far as me being paid, I am in Thailand and have no idea who would pay me. In fact, since I am in this for justice, I wouldn't want to be paid. I have not gone to church in years or affiliated with one.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 11:10 pm on Fri, Apr 13, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Ben stated...SNAP and others who claim to be advocates of victims of pedophiles are asking alleged "victims" of Fr. Michael Kelly to come forward to accuse him of being a pedophile

    That brings to mind, why is it legally fair for the plaintiff to be anonymous. The defendant cannot do as the plaintiff side can do. What if someone asked ... "anyone who has information about the plaintiff 's propensity to lie, please contact the defense team"

    Since the plaintiff is anonymous, the paper with not print his name. How in the world can someone who knows something provide the information if they do not know who the plaintiff is. Why does the media let this unfair advantage take place. The Plaintiff's name was in the comment section and immediately removed. If they are going to take away the advantage of public help for the defendant, why allow it for the plaintiff in the interest of fairness?

     
  • Ben Sanacore posted at 8:17 pm on Fri, Apr 13, 2012.

    Ben Sanacore Posts: 104

    SNAP and others who claim to be advocates of victims of pedophiles are asking alleged "victims" of Fr. Michael Kelly to come forward to accuse him of being a pedophile. Please understand that this organization and others are eager to believe anyone who accuses a Catholic priest of being a pedophile. Please understand that there are people who are looking to profit from such allegations. If you've had a bad experience with the Catholic Church that doesn't involve sexual abuse, please don't be encourgaged to falsely accuse Fr. Kelly to get even. If you have problems with the Catholic Church because of its philosophy or it doesn't agree with your lifestyle, please don't take the opportunity to falsely accuse Fr. Kelly as a result. This is an unacceptable way to resolve philosophical differences. Vengeance and spite never result in satisfaction, and they will destroy you on a personal level. If you are a person who would falsely accuse Fr. Kelly for profit, understand that in the end you will only hurt yourself. Put yourself in Fr. Kelly's shoes. Would you want someone to falsely accuse you of such a terrible crime of being a pedophile? What would it do to your life? The Sherriff's Office and District Attorney's office have both stated that anyone who falsely reports a crime, and it is later determined that they lied could be prosecuted and held criminally accountable for filing a false police report. Don't make the mistake of lying to law enforcement officials about being sexually abused by Fr. Kelly.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 7:34 pm on Fri, Apr 13, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    In another thread, the Northern California director of SNAP, who made $600,000 against a priest,stated the following and I replied....

    Piscitelli stated...Your statement that I have mental problems because I am a Pagan Witch is not only bigoted; but a written tangible testament to your blatant prejudice. And it has nothing to do with this case.

    I responded...I also do not believe in the Easter Bunny. Does that make me a bigot against rabbits?

    I do not believe there are witches in existence ( except in the Wizard of OZ). I believe anyone who thinks they are a witch has mental problems... just as a person who sees pink bunny rabbits and talks to them.

    This man is the a director of SNAP... who has desperately attempted to paint father Kelly an abuser even before the trial began. One has to wonder if a person who claims to be the leader is a “real witch” in his mind, should be in a position of leadership of an organization that is doing its best to win a monetary award for the plaintiff against father Kelly. A reasonable person might wonder why the Plaintiff's attorney works with SNAP... they do have something in common though...” lots of money”.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 7:06 pm on Fri, Apr 13, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    sp... below, humain= humane

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 7:04 pm on Fri, Apr 13, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    Melonie at "SNAP" STATES Even Catholic experts acknowledge that over 95% of abuse allegations are true,

    Really?... I think not. Your link only talks about one man's "OPINION" based on cases "HE" saw... The Catholic organization is international... if you want to talk about what hundreds of catholic experts state, there are different web links...Catholic experts actual say that the church and the priests are subject to mass hysteria and that this pursuit ( witch hunt in my words) of Manly and the people who stand to become wealthy is not humain.

    Unless of course you are Joey, the Northern California director of SNAP, then the witch , as he calls himself, is the one in the hunt.

     
  • Robert Chapman posted at 6:35 pm on Fri, Apr 13, 2012.

    Bob Chapman Posts: 997

    There are pedophiles in ALL walks of life. Priests, pastors, doctors, law enforcement officers, firemen, teachers, and every other vocation you can name. Wonder why it is that they have singled out the Catholic Church and not gone after the Mormons, Baptists, Methodists, et al. I mean if is REALLY is about "justice" and not about huge cash settlements.

     
  • Robert Chapman posted at 6:15 pm on Fri, Apr 13, 2012.

    Bob Chapman Posts: 997

    I am curious to know how much MONEY these SNAP "volunteers" have realized through their own lawsuits against the Catholic Church? I am always puzzled when no criminal charges are ever brought but yet millions of dollars are garnered through lawsuits. If there weren't the possibility to get hundreds of thousands of dollars just how many of these lawsuits would be initiated? In my opinion, Manly is of the same slimy ilk as the attorney who goes around suing small businesses over ADA compliance. I hope they choke on their blood money.

     
  • Treacy Elliott posted at 5:00 pm on Fri, Apr 13, 2012.

    Treacy Elliott Posts: 72

    This is an interesting website that basically debunks the repressed memory BS

    http://www.fmsfonline.org/

    As Darrell mentioned in his post, in many cases repressed memory is created, not something that just happens all of a sudden

     
  • Ronald Brown posted at 4:49 pm on Fri, Apr 13, 2012.

    gipper Posts: 116

    Manly claims that polygraphs tests can be manipulated. Possibly. Why did Manly not let the plaintiff take the test then when the defense offered to pay for it? Would the test show a different result than what he said under deposition and oath?

    Manly knew that this could possibly be detrimental to his case so he did not let his client take it.

    I am confused by the jury's decision to make a decision in two hours. In the jury testimony, the judge asked the jurors to place the most importance on expert witnesses. With the expert witnesses, you have a Harvard medical school faculy and board certified psychiatrist that debunks repressed memory offered by the "expert" on repressed memory. On the other side, you have a board certified psychiatrist who offers a differing opinion. Wouldn't it have taken longer than two hours to reach a decision when two vastly different points of view are put forth?

    It is obvious that the jury relied on the "expert" witness who put forth the repressed memory hypothesis. The "expert" witness is discredited when evidence that the plaintiff says in a deposition contradicts what he says under oath. But under repressed memory, details can be forgotten. The plaintiff seemed crystal clear on where and the particular details of the assault. Why is he unable to remember the grade level that it happened? I thought the jury would have wanted to take a little more than two hours to make a decision.

    The "repressed memory" hypothesis held forth in the juror's mind, and when coupled with the plaintiff's emotional testimony the outcome is easy to deduce.

     
  • Melanie Sakoda posted at 4:13 pm on Fri, Apr 13, 2012.

    Melanie Sakoda Posts: 16

    Even Catholic experts acknowledge that over 95% of abuse allegations are true,

    http://tinyurl.com/7ry5bfg

    and there is ample evidence that some people can repress the memory of a traumatic event and later recover it .

    http://blogs.brown.edu/recoveredmemory/

    Recovered memory has not been "debunked," and polygraphs are not admissible evidence in courts.

    If you have been the victim of abuse, don't suffer alone and in silence. There are people who will believe you and support you.

    Melanie Jula Sakoda
    Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests (SNAP)
    SNAP East Bay Director
    Toll Free Phone: 1-877-SNAPHEALS (1-877-762-7432)
    melanie.sakoda@gmail.com
    925-708-6175

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 3:53 pm on Fri, Apr 13, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405


    CONTINUATION


    Scientific American
    September 1997, vol 277 #3
    pages 70-75
    Elizabeth F. Loftus
    UNIVERSITY OF WASHINGTON
    SEATTLE, WASHINGTON 98195 USA

    Creating False Memories

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 3:53 pm on Fri, Apr 13, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    In 1986 Nadean Cool, a nurse's aide in Wisconsin, sought therapy from a psychiatrist to help her cope with her reaction to a traumatic event experienced by her daughter. During therapy, the psychiatrist used hypnosis and other suggestive techniques to dig out buried memories of abuse that Cool herself had allegedly experienced. In the process, Cool became convinced that she had repressed memories of having been in a satanic cult, of eating babies, of being raped, of having sex with animals and of being forced to watch the murder of her eight-year-old friend. She came to believe that she had more than 120 personalities-children, adults, angels and even a duck-all because, Cool was told, she had experienced severe childhood sexual and physical abuse. The psychiatrist also performed exorcisms on her, one of which lasted for five hours and included the sprinkling of holy water and screams for Satan to leave Cool's body.

    When Cool finally realized that false memories had been planted, she sued the psychiatrist for malpractice. In March 1997, after five weeks of trial, her case was settled out of court for $2.4 million. Nadean Cool is not the only patient to develop false memories as a result of questionable therapy. In Missouri in 1992 a church counselor helped Beth Rutherford to remember during therapy that her father, a clergyman, had regularly raped her between the ages of seven and 14 and that her mother sometimes helped him by holding her down. Under her therapist's guidance, Rutherford developed memories of her father twice impregnating her and forcing her to abort the fetus herself with a coat hanger.The father had to resign from his post as a clergyman when the allegations were made public. Later medical examination of the daughter revealed, however, that she was still a virgin at age 22 and had never been pregnant. The daughter sued the therapist and received a $1-million settlement in 1996.

    About a year earlier two juries returned verdicts against a Minnesota psychiatrist accused of planting false memories by former patients Vynnette Hamanne and Elizabeth Carlson, who under hypnosis and sodium amytal, and after being fed misinformation about the workings of memory, had come to remember horrific abuse by family members. The juries awarded Hammane $2.67 million and Carlson $2.5 million for their ordeals.

    In all four cases, the women developed memories about childhood abuse in therapy and then later denied their authenticity. How can we determine if memories of childhood abuse are true or false? Without corroboration, it is very difficult to differentiate between false memories and true ones. Also, in these cases, some memories were contrary to physical evidence, such as explicit and detailed recollections of rape and abortion when medical examination confirmed virginity. How is it possible for people to acquire elaborate and confident false memories? A growing number of investigations demonstrate that under the right circumstances false memories can be instilled rather easily in some people.

     
  • Posey Mattea posted at 3:52 pm on Fri, Apr 13, 2012.

    chatty95321 Posts: 15

    ....and repressed memory is also ludicrous. I don't believe for a minute, that a child of 12 would forget being molested. A young child, I can see. This whole case is built on a disturbed man, for whatever reason, ruining a good priest.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 3:51 pm on Fri, Apr 13, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405

    all victims are brave to speak out... true...but people who claim repressed memories are not in my opinion a victim unless it really happened.

    No physical evidence and a heart felt story= large settlements for the people who want money.

    Just imagine ... let me put you under hypnosis and when you wake up, you will be a millionaire with bad memories...I think you might get some volunteers.

     
  • Posey Mattea posted at 3:49 pm on Fri, Apr 13, 2012.

    chatty95321 Posts: 15

    Just because they were hired by the diocese, doesn't make them biased. That would be to say that one hired by the plantiff would be biased. Same goes for the repressed memory expert...hired by the plantiff...biased. No win situation, according
    to you.

     
  • Darrell Baumbach posted at 3:45 pm on Fri, Apr 13, 2012.

    Darrell Baumbach Posts: 9405


    The diocese made a concerted effort to cover up for Father Kelly," attorney John Manly told the jury in his opening statement on Thursday morning. "They value money, power and their reputation more than they do children. Ladies and gentlemen, that has got to stop."

    I imagine Mr Manly was simultaneously dreaming about the millions and millions of warm green dollars he will soon get. He will be able to add that to the nearly one billion is awards that he already won... yes, when Mr Manly talks about people who are greedy and money hungry, he knows from personal experience and desires of what he is talking about. I think the Plaintiff made a wise choice in attorneys. They too will soon have millions if the jury continues to participate with their hysteria against priests.

    What is also interesting is the the SNAP representatives happen to also be interested in money. Their northern California leader won $600,000 in their famous repressed memory slot machine. It is interesting the people who claim they are for protection of children are also very interested in the cash settlements that are so easily won... according to SNAP... priests just don't win their cases... that means that taking a priest to court is very very very very easy money.

     
  • Posey Mattea posted at 3:44 pm on Fri, Apr 13, 2012.

    chatty95321 Posts: 15

    I find it amazing that a recalled memory after 25 years is admissible, but a polygraph isn't. Too bad the plantiff didn't have to take one. Maybe we would know the truth.

     
  • Judy Jones posted at 1:17 pm on Fri, Apr 13, 2012.

    Judy Jones Posts: 12

    This victim is extremely brave for speaking up and sharing his painful story. This is not an easy thing to do.

    Hopefully any others, who may have knowledge or may have been harmed by Fr Michael Kelly, will also have the courage to speak up and report it to police, not church officials.

    When victims stay silent, nothing changes. But when victims find the courage to take action, there's at least a chance for prevention, healing and justice ­ especially when they seek independent sources of support and avoid contacting Catholic officials.

    Judy Jones, SNAP Midwest Associate Director, USA, 636-433-2511
    "Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests" and all clergy.

    (SNAP, the Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests, is the world's oldest and largest support group for clergy abuse victims.
    SNAP was founded in 1988 and has more than 12,000 members. Despite the word "priest" in our title, we have members who were molested by religious figures of all denominations, including nuns, rabbis, bishops, and Protestant ministers and increasingly, victims who were assaulted in a wide range of institutional settings like summer camps, athletic programs, Boy Scouts, etc. Our website is SNAPnetwork.org)

     
  • Tim Lennon posted at 12:51 pm on Fri, Apr 13, 2012.

    Tim Lennon Posts: 45

    It is a sad and regrettable fact that child sex predators continue their abuse until stopped. Now is the time to reach out to those who might have been hurt by such cruel abuse.
    I also ask parents to talk to their children and discuss the situation with Kelly and discuss the possible exposure your children had with Kelly.
    At all times we should welcome those victims who couregeously step forward and report their abuse. They deserve our support.
    Tim Lennon, Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests www.snapnetwork.org

     
  • Arabella Clark posted at 10:49 am on Fri, Apr 13, 2012.

    Arabella Posts: 129

    I think what John Manly said is spot on. Many victims of predators priests, doctors, cub scout leaders have committed suicide by throwing themselves in front of cars, slashing their wrists and more.

    As stated, this isn't 1940, when it would have been very novel for a victim of a priest to come forward. Tragically, the public is no longer surprised by this.

    Your venom seems worryingly misdirected. How will you cope if one of your children or grandchildren is molested?

     
  • Dave Pierre posted at 10:17 am on Fri, Apr 13, 2012.

    DPierre Posts: 18

    Read the truth about what kind of person contingency lawyer John Manly is. He once compared being a Catholic priest to being a train conductor carrying prisoners to Auschwitz. You can hear the audio yourself:
    http://www.themediareport.com/hot-topics/attorney-john-c-manly/

    --

    It's hilarious that SNAP's Tim Lennon belittles polygraph examinations, but he supports the totally debunked and discredited theory of "repressed memory."
    http://www.themediareport.com/hot-topics/repressed-memory-debunked/

    --

    Read the TRUTH about SNAP:
    http://www.themediareport.com/hot-topics/snap-survivors-network-of-those-abused-by-priests/

     
  • Joelle Casteix posted at 9:41 am on Fri, Apr 13, 2012.

    Joelle Casteix Posts: 2

    This trial is not about SNAP, who is only there as volunteer support (in fact, the victim had no contact with the organization until the actual trial started).

    This trial is not about lawyers or greed.

    This trial is about the sexual abuse of children and the cover-up of that abuse.

    The beauty of our impartial justice system is that jurors - who are citizens, just like you and me - are able to take evidence, determine truth, and make a verdict. No matter what you think about SNAP and its volunteers or lawyers or priests, a US Constitution-based jury of Kelly's peers determined that he is liable for the abuse. I hope that the same jury will also determine that the Diocese knew of the risk and did nothing to protect kids.

    If you have been abused, or have seen or suspected abuse, call law enforcement, not church officials.

    Joelle Casteix, Western Regional Director
    SNAP, the Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests
    Jcasteix(at)gmail.com

     
  • Arabella Clark posted at 9:35 am on Fri, Apr 13, 2012.

    Arabella Posts: 129

    Ms. Elliott: What exactly is your beef with SNAP? It is a not-for profit organization. They have very little money.

    I noticed that you avoid talking about the thousands of criminal prosecutions around the country that SNAP has helped with; Father John Geoghan; the infamous Father Paul Shanley ( a member of NAMBLA.) In these criminal cases where victims testified, they received no money.

    So let me get this straight: all of the district attorney's offices, police and sheriff departments who have helped to get thousands pedophile priests off the street ( see the big case going on involving Mngsr Lynn right now in Philadelphia): they're all in some big anti-priest conspiracy and they're in it for the money?

    Franky, you sound like someone from the 1940s who refuses to believe that priests can do this. But this is 2012, where there is an epidemic of priests cases in Belgium, France, Ireland, Canada and the US.

     
  • Treacy Elliott posted at 8:19 am on Fri, Apr 13, 2012.

    Treacy Elliott Posts: 72

    "They value money, power and their reputation more than they do children. Ladies and gentlemen, that has got to stop."

    Sounds like Manly is describing SNAP

     
  • Tim Lennon posted at 7:59 am on Fri, Apr 13, 2012.

    Tim Lennon Posts: 45

    The use of a polygraph as any indication of truth is ludicrous, deserving of derision and ridicule. Courts don't use them. Even more evidence of the bias character of the "truthfulness" of Kelly's polygraph: who hired the examiner?, who set up and calibrated the machine?, who drew up the questions?, who interpreted the results?, who prepped the witness?, etc.
    There was nothing about Kelly's polygraph that was independent and unbiased. All the above issues are in opposition to professional standards of polygraph examiners. See also: www.apa.org/research/action/polygraph.aspx
    One one hand we have a rape and a dozen or so instances of Kelly's misbehavior with children and on the other hand we have a bogus polygraph dragged forward to salvage the soiled reputation of Kelly.

     
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