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Bible is entwined with American civic life
Monday, November 2, 2009 6:11 AM PST
Obama is the first American president to deny America is a Christian nation, a repudiation of what made America great and a refutation of the declarations of his presidential predecessors.
“The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity.” " John Adams.
“The teachings of the Bible are so interwoven and entwined with our whole civic and social life, that it would be literally impossible for us to figure to ourselves what that life would be if these teachings were removed.” " Teddy Roosevelt.
“America was born a Christian nation.” " Woodrow Wilson.
“This is a Christian nation.” " Harry Truman.
“Let us remember that as a Christian nation we have a charge and a destiny.” " Richard Nixon.
Thomas Jefferson was instrumental in establishing weekly Sunday worship services at the U.S. Capitol, a practice that continued through the 19th century. President Jefferson once told a friend that no nation has ever existed or been governed without religion, nor can be. He even closed presidential documents with “In the year of our Lord Christ.”
For all of you who don’t believe, please check out the Web site www.wallbuilders.com, where I retrieved all this information. They have tons of information that they can prove.
John Krueg
Lodi
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Lodi50 wrote on Nov 11, 2009 5:49 PM:
It may be the LNS trial of the century. Don't miss it. "
Billy Rubin wrote on Nov 9, 2009 12:50 PM:
Yes, yes, I remember the Gary Bardon letter - I thought he was just another crazy person, or perhaps another alias blog name for Mike Nedderman, who made no point - but in any case worthy only of dismissal.
If you have a question or comment for Billy, remember to be specific. I'll try to remember to check back later for your list of questions. "
Aimee wrote on Nov 9, 2009 11:51 AM:
I've repeatedly asked for Lodian's opinion regarding Gary's assesment of her (which was very right-on IMO) and she fails to even address the question-very unlike Lodian not to address a negative comment (multiple times) directed towards her.
Billy has been silent as well.
Why is that? "
Aimee wrote on Nov 9, 2009 11:47 AM:
" Brian: Still no answer? Shouldn't this be an easy question for you? What are the unique Christian principals that form the foundation of our government? "
Lodian comes up with the same question others have asked, over and over again, because she simply lacks the intellectual creativity to ask an equally difficult question.
It's a free country Lodian, and yes, we still have free speech, but it's rather sad how you have to recycle (over and over again) the queries of your mentors. "
Lodi50 wrote on Nov 9, 2009 9:03 AM:
" When John Krueg of Lodi writes, "Obama is the first American president to deny America is a Christian nation..." his score pegs dangerously in the red of the Jerome Kinderman "Dishonest or Ignorant Blogging Scale" because not only is Mr. Krueg wrong in his accusation, it was no less a personage than Thomas Jefferson himself who stated, "...the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion."
Perhaps John Krueg of Lodi is ignorant of the fact that Thomas Jefferson was president before President Obama. Or perhaps John Krueg is dishonest in his portrayal of what he wishes to be taken as "fact."
In any case John Krueg of Lodi has no credibility. "
Billy, Billy, Billy. As your credibility falls, your hypocracy rises.
To quote Ricky Ricardo, "you got some splainin to do." "
Lodi50 wrote on Nov 9, 2009 9:00 AM:
And Billy, not to nit pick you, but you are accused on the Treaty of Tripoli page of using a sentence noted in that letter, and attributing it to that Treaty. However, you attributed it to Thomas Jefferson on this page—what's up with that? "
Rhodie wrote on Nov 6, 2009 4:20 PM:
Anyway, waht I was going to finish with saying is that i have said all that I plan to say here. I've made my argument based on historical facts. So have fun laughing, denying or ignoring what I said. "
Rhodie wrote on Nov 6, 2009 4:12 PM:
Rhodie wrote on Nov 6, 2009 4:07 PM:
It is my understanding that the concept that no one was above the law was directly from the Magna Carta (before that Kings and such were immune from laws which they enforced) which has it's roots in Judeo-Christian teachings of fairness to all and the already stated "the greatest must serve" comments. While others may have had the ideal, Christianity was the first to put the ideal into practice and LAW.
The Magna Carta also was had the clause that the convicted had the right to be judged by peers rather than King appointed judges.
The bottom line on the Magna Catra is that it was writen by the Catholic Church and enforced in England, where centuries later it was used by the founders of the country to declare freedom from England and as inspiration for the Constitution.
I'm not going to go through the entire Magna Carta and extrapolate out the relevant information. The question now becomes why you won't accept this uniquely Christian documant as fundimental in the early formation of the US? "
Billy Rubin wrote on Nov 6, 2009 3:31 PM:
Wow.
You say you work six days a week and still can't afford to provide your for kids?
Maybe tomorrow you should push your hot dog cart to a busier intersection. "
voter wrote on Nov 6, 2009 3:16 PM:
voter wrote on Nov 6, 2009 3:07 PM:
Lodian wrote on Nov 6, 2009 2:06 PM:
Rhodie wrote on Nov 6, 2009 12:27 PM:
"Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant"
But you are right in that it is impossible to find a "uniquely" christian principle since Christianity was born out of Judaism, therefore most of the priciples Cristianity is based off of are based on Jewish traditions.
The best historical influence that Christianity had over the constitution goes back to the Magna Carta, a listing of freedoms and rights forced by the Catholic Church on England, and wich the Constitution drew inspiration. Go ahead, someone argue that the Magna Carta was not a Christian document. It was the laws of the Magna Carta (a christian document of just laws) that the colonists used to justify their break from England.
So what christian principles helped the founding of the US? Read the Magna Carta. "
rantraves wrote on Nov 6, 2009 12:06 PM:
Lodian wrote on Nov 6, 2009 11:02 AM:
Rhodie wrote on Nov 6, 2009 10:25 AM:
Alright, I'm sick of this. Since no one else will point-out the most obvious and "Christ-like" christian principle that in unique to our government at it's inseption. It comes from Matt Chapter 20 "25Jesus called them together and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. 26Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, 27and whoever wants to be first must be your slave— 28just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."
At the time the US was formed all other goverments were made up of nobles, religious leaders and royal families with the goal of the people ruled over to serve them. The US was the first to say anyone can serve in government (To the extent of any office) and that the greatest, the elected officials served us, not the other way around. "
Lodian wrote on Nov 6, 2009 9:59 AM:
rantraves wrote on Nov 6, 2009 6:41 AM:
rantraves wrote on Nov 6, 2009 6:31 AM:
Billy Rubin wrote on Nov 6, 2009 6:19 AM:
Voter's question was, "What unique Christian principals form the foundation of our government?"
When you were further pressed by Lodian on the question, you said "Many, Lodian."
To which Lodian responded, "Brian: If there are many then name a few."
I followed up with, "A few? He can't name *one*"
You, of course, went for the "baffle 'em with B.S." approach by posting 40 tons of nothing.
Do you think, Brian, you can maybe think of a few of the "Many" you claim to know? It would be so much easier if you just did what you said you could do. Do you think you can do that? Just do what you said you could do?
Otherwise you will just be, according to Jerome, either ignorant or dishonest. "
Brian wrote on Nov 6, 2009 4:12 AM:
Law with liberty is found only under God's law of liberty. Any other law, internal or external, is by definition, the law of man. Now, can you see why even the posting of the "Ten Commandments" is under such savage attack by the ungodly? It is a direct challenge to both the tyrant and his "useful idiots" the anarchists.
Our Constitution is such a challenge. The tyrant and the anarchist hate it because it protects our right to the unalienable rights endowed by our Creator upon all men.
ACH seminar curricula are based upon progressive presentation of seven Biblical principles of government. Each may be best understood by its counter-concept:
n Individuality as opposed to collectivism.
n Self-Government as opposed to external manipulation.
n Quality Character as opposed to degradation.
n Private Property as opposed to socialism.
n American (Biblical) Form as opposed to globalism.
n Local Authority as opposed to centralization.
n Liberty as opposed to social engineering.
-You're one of those globalists aren't you Lodian. "
Brian wrote on Nov 6, 2009 4:07 AM:
America Was Founded on Biblical Principles of Government
-No I'm not Lodian. You have not given me one example supporting your argument.
I have given you many examples supporting my argument. Just because you and your ilk don't want to believe it doesn't mean it's not true. "
Lodian wrote on Nov 5, 2009 10:52 PM:
Brian wrote on Nov 5, 2009 7:30 PM:
believe in everything that isn't so" "
Brian wrote on Nov 5, 2009 6:54 PM:
Brian wrote on Nov 5, 2009 6:54 PM:
Brian wrote on Nov 5, 2009 6:51 PM:
One reason we have lost so many of our religious freedoms is that the liberal educational establishment has worked hard to eliminate our knowledge of the Judeo-Christian heritage of America. The facts nonetheless reveal the true convictions of our founders. Without question, they believed that although no one Christian denomination should dominate the nation, the principles of the Bible and Christianity should underlie our government and American education as well.
"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists but by Christians, not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ." - Patrick Henry
"Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers and it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest of a Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers." - U.S. Supreme Court Chief Justice, John Jay "
Brian wrote on Nov 5, 2009 6:50 PM:
The concept of separation of church and state might be implied by the First Amendment which states that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...." It says nothing about the "separation of church and state." And, even if you accept the principle of the separation of church and state being implied by the First Amendment, it's implication is not there to protect Americans from religion, it is there to protect religious Americans from the government. "
Brian wrote on Nov 5, 2009 6:48 PM:
Active humanists and the liberal media have for years undertaken a concentrated effort to misinform the American public by attacking the "Religious Right" and rewriting America's Judeo-Christian history in a humanistic tone. The motto at the heart of the American experiment "in God we trust" has been exchanged for "in Man we trust."
Rewriting History
The last three generations of Americans simply have not been told the truth about American history as its Christian heritage has been disparaged.
For example, ask most Americans if the "separation of church and state" is in our Constitution, and they will answer yes. You can scour the Constitution of the United States, and you will NOT find the phrase, "separation of church and state" or anything close to it. "
Billy Rubin wrote on Nov 5, 2009 6:13 PM:
"Brian: If there are many then name a few."
A few? He can't name *one* "
Lodian wrote on Nov 5, 2009 4:10 PM:
" Lodian wrote on Nov 5, 2009 9:29 AM:
" Brian: What unique Christian principals form the foundation of our government? "
-Many, Lodian.
---------------
Brian: If there are many then name a few. "
Brian wrote on Nov 5, 2009 3:56 PM:
" Brian: What unique Christian principals form the foundation of our government? "
-Many, Lodian. Isn't it enough already
that you are attempting to cast a shadow on this country? Evidently you could give a rat's ass that people who immigrate here are motivated by the
strong Christian heritage that has made this country so great regardless of THEIR religious affiliation. "
Brian wrote on Nov 5, 2009 3:51 PM:
You're being a control freak. Knock it off. "
-Pot, Kettle, Black "
Lodian wrote on Nov 5, 2009 1:23 PM:
Lodian wrote on Nov 5, 2009 1:19 PM:
rantraves wrote on Nov 5, 2009 10:46 AM:
Aimee wrote on Nov 5, 2009 9:40 AM:
Come up with something new or go back to your spats with others, which you seem to enjoy starting. "
Aimee wrote on Nov 5, 2009 9:38 AM:
My position is that Christianity was the predominant religion.
No one has addressed my query, posed earlier in the blog: if slavery was condoned, and even encouraged by Jesus, why is it now that Christians do not practice this or condone it? You'd think that if Jesus approved of something, it would be right, good and holy, I mean, you know how "slavish" the devotion to Christ can be by these "fundamentalists" (note sarcasm here). If one makes the argument that slavery is condoned by the Bible, though Jesus, then current Christians are sinning by not keeping slaves. Why do we not hear pastors and preachers talk about slavery to their congregations? Is it because they think Jesus was wrong?
No. It's because slavery is not condoned by the Bible. The concept of slavery goes against the overwhelming message of the Bible - that Jesus came to Earth to free us, not to enslave us. "
Lodian wrote on Nov 5, 2009 9:29 AM:
Lodian wrote on Nov 5, 2009 9:25 AM:
Lodian wrote "LOL! It's interesting how you thought I was talking about you."
Brian wrote "All of the sudden you change your position. Boy, you're a piece of work!"
---------------
Brian: What position do you think I have changed? "
Rhodie wrote on Nov 5, 2009 9:10 AM:
"But you passed the test—you have the patience (a virtue)"
Thanks for the kind words Lodi50. But truth be told I did show up on these boards rather aggressive and irritable. Some still push those buttons for me.
I kind of like my discussions with Voter. Unlike some here Voter can carry on an intelligent debate over Biblical principles without twisting or manipulating what was said. Just Voter's own interpritation of what was said. Spend some time here and you will find those that take what is said and twists it to reflect the darkest intent with a sole purpose of mocking the commentors beliefs. "
Lodi50 wrote on Nov 5, 2009 9:02 AM:
I was never an angry atheist, but once upon a time I was an angry young man who had rejected everything I was raised to believe, except what was overwhelmingly clear to me, even as I was lost in my anger—that there was in fact a God. My life changed when, after investigating several other religions, I decided that intellectual honesty required that I read the Bible for myself simply because it claimed to be God speaking to me, to read it completely, and to do so with as unprejudiced a mind as I could muster (actually, it's the spirit that must be unprejudiced). I was shocked and impressed with what I found in there. It wasn't anything like I had presupposed based upon my acceptance of the opinions of others.
I don't believe anyone who hasn't done that "due diligence" can, with intellectual honesty, offer an opinion on the subject. Of course, that won't stop them. "
Lodi50 wrote on Nov 5, 2009 8:54 AM:
I'm certain you haven't told them, but I get the sense that when you said you were signing off to “put the kids to bed” last night that you included Voter, Billy, Lodian, and the others in the prayers you prayed with your children. What a beautiful lesson for them (your children and Voter et al.). The prayers of Children are important to God. "
Brian wrote on Nov 5, 2009 8:06 AM:
Brian wrote on Nov 5, 2009 8:02 AM:
" Brian wrote "I have never posted under any other name than Brian"
LOL! It's interesting how you thought I was talking about you. "
-All of the sudden you change your position. Boy, you're a piece of work! "
Lodian wrote on Nov 4, 2009 11:19 PM:
Brian: What unique Christian principals form the foundation of our government? "
Lodian wrote on Nov 4, 2009 11:09 PM:
LOL! It's interesting how you thought I was talking about you. "
voter wrote on Nov 4, 2009 8:55 PM:
Rhodie v2.0 wrote on Nov 4, 2009 8:44 PM:
Rhodie v2.0 wrote on Nov 4, 2009 8:43 PM:
But how many of them had a code of law that even allowed for the release of slaves (Year of Jubilee for Hebrews was when they were to release their slaves no matter how long they had been in service). The bible also ordered the humane treatment of slaves (compared to what was around at those times). In fact the bible tells owners that upon the release of slaves (when the debt had been repaid or otherwise service no longer needed) the master should send them off with money for the trip home, food and clothes. It was basically a severance package. "
Rhodie v2.0 wrote on Nov 4, 2009 8:35 PM:
"26Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, 27and whoever wants to be first must be your slave— 28just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."
So I guess you are right, Voter, Jesus did condon slavery. Not the slavery of early America but rather that we all must serve each other. Not claiming superiority over another but rather imitate Jesus' example of serving everyone. "
voter wrote on Nov 4, 2009 8:23 PM:
voter wrote on Nov 4, 2009 8:20 PM:
Rhodie v2.0 wrote on Nov 4, 2009 8:19 PM:
It's Leviticus 25: 44-46. "
Rhodie v2.0 wrote on Nov 4, 2009 8:14 PM:
" Yes, that's my point. The institution of slavery is perfectly acceptable to Jesus. "
So you equate being called to live a life loyal to God in in service of his Will as the same as what happened at the founding of our country? "
Rhodie v2.0 wrote on Nov 4, 2009 8:09 PM:
Yes the slaves who disobeyed the master will be beaten, the others will be thrown into the darkness where there is nashing of teeth, others into the lake of fire. What do all these have in common? They were all warnings from Jesus that bad things wait for those who go against God's laws. Is warning that bad things wait for those who reject God the same as condoning, I don't think so. I take it you do, Voter. "
voter wrote on Nov 4, 2009 8:07 PM:
Rhodie v2.0 wrote on Nov 4, 2009 8:06 PM:
" Rhodie, I'm glad you showed up. Where have you been hiding yourself?"
Haven't seen much sense in debating issues where minds will not be swayed.
For the record, I don't believe the US was fonded on Christian principles BUT the early founders and shapers of the US were guided by Christian ideals. How much of those ideals were accurately followed is up for debate. "
Rhodie v2.0 wrote on Nov 4, 2009 8:04 PM:
Here when Jesus is saying the slave is not greater than the master he also says the student is not greater than the teacher. Taken in context with the whole of Matt: 10 Jesus is telling his followers that people will hate them simply because of who they have given themselves to. Followers of the master (Jesus) should conduct themselves as he does, they should strive to live a life reflective of Jesus' life and in accordance of god's will. "
voter wrote on Nov 4, 2009 7:59 PM:
voter wrote on Nov 4, 2009 7:57 PM:
voter wrote on Nov 4, 2009 7:56 PM:
Rhodie v2.0 wrote on Nov 4, 2009 7:53 PM:
Rather than copy and paste a whole passage here is the one that Voter is refering to. Saying that Jesus was recommending it is false. The quote is from a parable whicj Jesus often used to help teach about Heaven and God's will. In this case that those who know of God's will and ignores it will face consequences greater than those who dont know of the will of God.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2012:40-50&version=NIV "
voter wrote on Nov 4, 2009 7:28 PM:
Brian wrote on Nov 4, 2009 7:24 PM:
Brian wrote on Nov 4, 2009 7:19 PM:
" voter wrote on Nov 4, 2009 6:46 AM:
"It looks like no one can name even ONE uniquely Christian principal which forms the foundation of our government. For a group so adamant about your viewpoints, you are strangely silent on this."
Great points, voter. You ask some very good questions. Those that are in opposition just can't seem to answer. They run off and pretend they didn't read your question or they dance around it. "
-Even after several citations Lodian
is still in denial that there are unique principals that form the foudation of our government. It's almost like she wished they didn't exist. How sad. "
Brian wrote on Nov 4, 2009 7:15 PM:
" The Ten Commandments DEMAND a theocracy (Thou shalt have NO OTHER GOD)--it's not possible for a country with freedom of religion to be based on the Ten Commandments. "
No Voter,
it's called monotheism. And you're really sure that the scholars are wrong about our form of government being based on the ten commandments? Did you go to UC Berkely? "
Brian wrote on Nov 4, 2009 7:06 PM:
Some of my regular customers would like to have a few words with you about your non-sense that you don't think I have a job. "
Brian wrote on Nov 4, 2009 7:02 PM:
" Brian wrote on Nov 4, 2009 7:30 AM:
"-You there Voter? Cat got your tongue? "
This may come as a shock to you, Brian, but some of us have J-O-B-S and have days filled with clients, customers, and responsibilities not involving the LNS website. "
Yes, and I work six days a week. But we're just suppose to overlook your comments when I don't answer you in a timely matter. "
voter wrote on Nov 4, 2009 6:07 PM:
Numerous Bible verses mandate slavery. Check out Leviticus 24: 44-46. As for Jesus, there's no doubt he supported the institution of slavery. In Luke 12:47 Jesus recommends the beating of slaves. In Matthew 10:24-25, Jesus reminds slaves that they are NEVER above their master and should work to imitate their master! Paul instructs slaves to obey their masters in many passages. It's pretty clear that God, Jesus, and the entire cast is up with slavery. "
voter wrote on Nov 4, 2009 5:44 PM:
voter wrote on Nov 4, 2009 5:41 PM:
" --Following the mandates of the 10 Commandments of the Bible is unique to the Christian religion. You asked for uniquely Christian attributes that were set forth by the Founding Fathers. Following the 10 Commandments would be one of these."
Aimee, reread my Nov. 3, 5:19 post. The US system of government or its laws have no connection with the Ten Commandments and directly contradict them. The Ten Commandments are not compatible with the concept of democracy and a free country. "
voter wrote on Nov 4, 2009 5:33 PM:
" It is critical to note that the slave owners in the Constitutional Convention wanted to count their slaves as whole people . . That fraction in no way was a reference to the individual slave’s humanity."
How much cognitive dissonance must a person live with to manage a post such as this? ARE YOU SERIOUS? "
voter wrote on Nov 4, 2009 5:29 PM:
"-You there Voter? Cat got your tongue? "
This may come as a shock to you, Brian, but some of us have J-O-B-S and have days filled with clients, customers, and responsibilities not involving the LNS website. "
Brian wrote on Nov 4, 2009 4:55 PM:
We're all curious to know what names you think I also post under? Except for my short stint as onelastthing, about at least six monthes ago now, I have never posted under any other name than Brian.
So do us all a favor and keep your unsubstantiated suspicians to yourself because there is nor can you get any proof that I or others on your list
post with different names. "
Lodian wrote on Nov 4, 2009 10:07 AM:
Lodian wrote on Nov 4, 2009 10:04 AM:
" For a moment there I thought Rant Raves was going to make a point regarding Voter's question.
False alarm."
LOL! "
Lodian wrote on Nov 4, 2009 10:02 AM:
"Mazie, please for you sake, change your brand and color of Kool-Aid."
Indeed. "
Lodian wrote on Nov 4, 2009 10:00 AM:
"It looks like no one can name even ONE uniquely Christian principal which forms the foundation of our government. For a group so adamant about your viewpoints, you are strangely silent on this."
Great points, voter. You ask some very good questions. Those that are in opposition just can't seem to answer. They run off and pretend they didn't read your question or they dance around it. "
Aimee wrote on Nov 4, 2009 9:58 AM:
There were many things that Jesus didn't specifically mention. Does that mean he condones everything he did not have time to address? I think that conclusion would be quite a stretch.
If slavery is condoned by the Bible, why is it that Christians today aren't clamoring for the right to own slaves? Why are they not participating in this act by secretly owning and working slaves, as those who believe in multiple marriages keep more than one partner in secret? "
Aimee wrote on Nov 4, 2009 9:45 AM:
Aimee wrote on Nov 4, 2009 9:44 AM:
Voter, the Constitution is not contrary to the 10 Commandments, it is neutral, as the Founders intended. The fact that the Constitution allows for freedom of speech and religion (both 1st Amendment privileges) means that one can worship as they please, not the opposite. It merely grants choices, not mandates. "
Aimee wrote on Nov 4, 2009 9:37 AM:
Aimee wrote on Nov 4, 2009 9:36 AM:
--There is abundant proof that early Americans were predominantly Christian.
--The Founders did not intend that the newly-founded nation of the United States of America worship solely in the Christian faith. Instead, they hoped that the nation they created would encourage freedom to worship any language.
--Following the mandates of the 10 Commandments of the Bible is unique to the Christian religion. You asked for uniquely Christian attributes that were set forth by the Founding Fathers. Following the 10 Commandments would be one of these.
However, you modified your question (for clarity, I presume) later on to ask "what uniquely Christian principles were the foundation of the government?" This alters my response since you are now asking how the founding father integrated Christianity into the documents important to the creation of this nation. In this case, I would posit that there are no integration of the 10 Commandments, since the Founders intended that religion and state be separate. "
Lodi50 wrote on Nov 4, 2009 9:24 AM:
Critical to understand was that in 1860 the slave states were at parity with the free states in the Congress. But because Lincoln promised prevent slavery from spreading to any new territories, there would be no new slave states, only new free states. The South “saw the handwriting on the wall” and knew they would become a weaker political voting block as more territories became free states. Conversely, they would never be stronger than at that moment.
Again, remember that the slave owner wanted to count his slaves as whole persons.
I read a great book a couple of years ago, “April 1865: the month that saved America” by Jay Winik. What motivated me to buy it was the introduction that barely mentioned the Civil War, and discussed the Declaration of Independence and the “seeds” sewn into the Constitution that eventually led to the Civil War. I strongly recommend it. "
Lodi50 wrote on Nov 4, 2009 9:16 AM:
Seriously, I just wanted to clarify the Constitution’s reference to slaves being counted as 3/5 of a person. That was a compromise made only for the purpose of apportionment (counting people in the census to determine the number of representative for each state).
It is critical to note that the slave owners in the Constitutional Convention wanted to count their slaves as whole people for purposes of apportionment, while the representatives who opposed slavery didn’t want to count them at all. The compromise was to count each as 3/5 of a person, thus 100 slaves would only be counted as 60, and the state in which they lived would have fewer congressmen and therefore less political power.
That fraction in no way was a reference to the individual slave’s humanity. has really been misunderstood and exactly the opposite inference should be taken from that reference in the Constitution. "
Brian wrote on Nov 4, 2009 7:57 AM:
Brian wrote on Nov 4, 2009 7:55 AM:
As to your question, "...what's your position on honor killings in Islam?", my final answer is that you're a moron. "
-Nice, Billy. "
Brian wrote on Nov 4, 2009 7:30 AM:
Many have attempted to rewrite our national history to reflect the influence of Godless philosophies in an effort to discredit Christianity and render it irrelevant in the minds of Americans.
-You there Voter? Cat got your tongue? "
rantraves wrote on Nov 4, 2009 7:29 AM:
Brian wrote on Nov 4, 2009 7:27 AM:
One can attribute much of it to U.S. Democracy and our foundation in Christianity. "
Brian wrote on Nov 4, 2009 7:21 AM:
I don't have the fear that if America is not a Christian nation then God will withhold His Blessing or even send judgment. And I feel blessed that I live in a nation that is more Christian
than anything else. Sorry you don't share this sentiment. "
Brian wrote on Nov 4, 2009 7:12 AM:
anything that proves our Christian foundation in this country. I don't know why. Perhaps she get a foul taste in her mouth with anything that has a religious foundation. "
Brian wrote on Nov 4, 2009 7:05 AM:
American Liberty: the Product of Christianity
America´s liberty arose from a Biblical Christian view of man and life, the dominant intellectual current of America´s 16th, 17th, and 18th centuries. America´s formative periods of colonization, development of state constitutions, and foundation of the Republic were expressions of thoroughly Christian thought, not an enlightened rationalism, deism, romanticism, or transcendentalism. These and other hollow philosophies waited on the intellectual horizon to erode our liberty´s foundation, but they did not impact America´s founding. Many have attempted to rewrite our national history to reflect the influence of Godless philosophies in an effort to discredit Christianity and render it irrelevant in the minds of Americans. Truly, America´s liberty, prosperity, and strength are the direct fruit of the Reformation, especially in England. "
voter wrote on Nov 4, 2009 6:46 AM:
rantraves wrote on Nov 4, 2009 6:41 AM:
Billy Rubin wrote on Nov 4, 2009 6:31 AM:
False alarm. "
Lodian wrote on Nov 3, 2009 11:22 PM:
Lodian wrote on Nov 3, 2009 11:14 PM:
Lodian wrote on Nov 3, 2009 11:06 PM:
LOL! "
Lodian wrote on Nov 3, 2009 11:05 PM:
rantraves wrote on Nov 3, 2009 8:19 PM:
Billy Rubin wrote on Nov 3, 2009 6:55 PM:
Maybe that's the all-but-silent rustle of embroidered silk I hear - a formerly magnificent garment being donned. Or, maybe it's the Wal*Mart version tying on his polyester-blend Blogger's Toga.
Or maybe the rustling sound is the flatulence escaping from the John Kruegs of Lodi and Mike Neddermans of Sacramento. "
voter wrote on Nov 3, 2009 5:39 PM:
voter wrote on Nov 3, 2009 5:19 PM:
voter wrote on Nov 3, 2009 5:02 PM:
voter wrote on Nov 3, 2009 5:02 PM:
voter wrote on Nov 3, 2009 5:00 PM:
Aimee wrote on Nov 3, 2009 4:59 PM:
Aimee wrote on Nov 3, 2009 4:58 PM:
Aimee wrote on Nov 3, 2009 4:54 PM:
Aimee wrote on Nov 3, 2009 4:53 PM:
Aimee wrote on Nov 3, 2009 4:51 PM:
Voter, the decision to declare black people as 3/5 of a person and to allow slavery is solely the function of man's sinful nature as a means to gain power and wealth. You know, as well as I, many atrocities are committed under the guise of "religion" with no Biblical guidance to justify the actions taken. And this is not restricted wholly to the Christian religion, either. "
voter wrote on Nov 3, 2009 4:50 PM:
Aimee wrote on Nov 3, 2009 4:43 PM:
It is very obvious that the Christian religion played a big part in the creation of this nation. There is ample proof that many of the people involved were indeed devout Christians. Whether you are an atheist or believe in some other faith, to argue that the Christian God, or the strong belief in him, did not play a part in the creation of this nation is to deny history. "
Aimee wrote on Nov 3, 2009 4:30 PM:
If an entity is not a traditional state agency/department, then the question is asked whether or not the entity is functioning as a government entity (this is very simply stated as there are other tests as well). In this case, the Council functions in a governmental capactity, thus, the Establishment Clause applies to them.
There is a community and national standard for obscenity, however. "
voter wrote on Nov 3, 2009 4:10 PM:
From the site:
" . . . we develop materials to educate the public concerning the periods in our country's history when its laws and policies were firmly rooted in Biblical principles."
This is a fairly damning statement directed at Christianity if you think about it. When the country was founded, blacks were only counted as 3/5 of a person, slavery was entirely acceptable, and women and children were chattel. Are these the Bible based policies that Mr. Krueg and the wallbuilders and so proud of and would like to see restored? "
Billy Rubin wrote on Nov 3, 2009 3:19 PM:
The bad news for you, Stan, is with the singular exception of George W. Bush, all past presidents agree with my assessment of Brian. "
rantraves wrote on Nov 3, 2009 2:25 PM:
Lodian wrote on Nov 3, 2009 1:59 PM:
Tisk.. tisk... Brian. You are the last one that should be accusing others of using multiple blog names. "
Billy Rubin wrote on Nov 3, 2009 11:52 AM:
Oh, my. You see? You see up there? Do you see what I see? It's red, Brian. All red for you. According to the Jerome Kinderman Blogging Scale you are either ignorant or dishonest.
Do you know why, Brian? It's because Richard Nixon and Harry Truman and Woodrow Wilson didn't found this country. Did you know that, Brian? Did Richard Nixon sign the Declaration of Independence? No. He didn't.
No. And Harry Truman wasn't there for the signing of the Constitution, either, was he?
As to your question, "...what's your position on honor killings in Islam?", my final answer is that you're a moron. "
rantraves wrote on Nov 3, 2009 9:51 AM:
Aimee wrote on Nov 3, 2009 9:28 AM:
I agree completely. The Founders saw the result of religion intertwined with government and the results were not good. They indeed intended to create a nation where people could worship how they pleased, without the threat of the ax on their necks. Separation of church and state is necessary to protect religion, not to destroy it. "
Brian wrote on Nov 3, 2009 8:21 AM:
Brian wrote on Nov 3, 2009 8:06 AM:
Since you're not much of a fan of Christianity what's your position
on honor killings in Islam? "
Brian wrote on Nov 3, 2009 8:03 AM:
“The teachings of the Bible are so interwoven and entwined with our whole civic and social life, that it would be literally impossible for us to figure to ourselves what that life would be if these teachings were removed.” ��" Teddy Roosevelt.
“America was born a Christian nation.” ��" Woodrow Wilson.
“This is a Christian nation.” ��" Harry Truman.
“Let us remember that as a Christian nation we have a charge and a destiny.” ��" Richard Nixon.
-So Billy,
Does your statement that "the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion trump these statements above?"
And do these past Presidents also have no credibility? "
Billy Rubin wrote on Nov 2, 2009 6:41 PM:
Perhaps John Krueg of Lodi is ignorant of the fact that Thomas Jefferson was president before President Obama. Or perhaps John Krueg is dishonest in his portrayal of what he wishes to be taken as "fact."
In any case John Krueg of Lodi has no credibility. "
dogs4you wrote on Nov 2, 2009 2:18 PM:
LodiFreeThinker wrote on Nov 2, 2009 12:19 PM:
There is little doubt the the majority of Americans are, and have been since the beginning of our nation, Christian.
This isn't what people seem to mean, however, when they say "This is a Christian nation".
They seem to mean, or even specifically state that what they mean, is that this nation was founded by Christian men, on a foundation of Christianity and that Christianity is the intended true and correct religion for America, according to the Framers.
So, when I say "This is NOT a Christian nation" what I mean is that the above notion or anything close to it is utter horse manure.
The Founders intended this to be a FREE nation, not a Christian nation. The two don't have to be mutually exclusive, but Christians who so vehemently defend this "Christian Nation" concept, seem to think so. "
Aimee wrote on Nov 2, 2009 11:14 AM:
Aimee wrote on Nov 2, 2009 11:08 AM:
Aimee wrote on Nov 2, 2009 11:03 AM:
But there are many interpretations. "
Aimee wrote on Nov 2, 2009 10:58 AM:
Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six. (Revelation 13:18)
I'm not saying that you necessarily believe this Mazie, but your post made me think of this misrepresentation that is being spread along internet lines. "
LodiFreeThinker wrote on Nov 2, 2009 9:31 AM:
The U.S. was not founded on Christianity, and we are not a Christian nation.
There is no point in arguing facts with people who believe in talking snakes and men who can walk on water.
However, using reason to convince unreasonable people is impossible. "
Brian wrote on Nov 2, 2009 7:41 AM:
Brian wrote on Nov 2, 2009 7:26 AM:
(Source: James Madison, The Records of the Federal Convention of 1787, Max Farrand, editor (New Haven: Yale University Press, 1911), Vol. I, pp. 450-452, June 28, 1787.) "
Brian wrote on Nov 2, 2009 7:26 AM:
cont. "
Brian wrote on Nov 2, 2009 7:23 AM:
Sixth President of the United States
The law given from Sinai was a civil and municipal as well as a moral and religious code; it contained many statutes . . . of universal application-laws essential to the existence of men in society, and most of which have been enacted by every nation which ever professed any code of laws.
(Source: John Quincy Adams, Letters of John Quincy Adams, to His Son, on the Bible and Its Teachings (Auburn: James M. Alden, 1850), p. 61.)
-Bring on the naysayers!! "
Brian wrote on Nov 2, 2009 7:14 AM:
We can't argue with those quotations.
However, I'm anticpating another round from those who are offended by the FACT this nation's foundation is Judeo-Christian. How can anyone waiste so much time trying to re-write history so as to make a point that their is no room for religion of any sort in government. "
Mazie wrote on Nov 2, 2009 7:06 AM:
Comments on this story are now closed.