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Let's privatize our schools
Wednesday, October 14, 2009 6:11 AM PDT
In the Oct. 2 edition of the News-Sentinel, I read two separate articles: One, entitled "What recession? Many local private schools see enrollment holding steady" and two, "Textbooks already outdated in Lodi-area school districts."
I was struck by the irony of these two different articles appearing in the same edition of the paper.
The public school system is a bottomless pit of financial and educational failure, yet the schools still receive over 55 percent of the state budget. And they can't even buy up-to-date school books? The article about Century Christian School stated that it costs approximately $3,500 per year for each student to attend. Our public schools receive approximately $12,000 (or more) per year per student and too many graduates (if they graduate) can't even read or make change at Starbucks.
If our government would give parents a voucher of $10,000 per year for each school-age child for private schools and do away with the public school system, we might once again have a population being educated as well as those in Europe. Good teachers would have no problem finding employment, and great teachers would be better compensated in a private system. Poor teachers would need to find work outside the educational system.
Privatization of education would do away with all the astronomical costs of administration because these schools would have to be run as businesses in order to succeed. There would be competition in the field of education for those tax vouchers. The grades and number of graduates of private schools are always higher than those of public schools.
In England, when a child reaches the age of 15 or so, they are given a test to decide if they are college-oriented or better suited to a trade school, and placed accordingly. Many millionaires in this country started out in trade, without a college education, and did well. Many families live well with jobs in trade and service industries without a college education.
But then, our school system isn't really about education anymore, is it?
Floy Kern
Lodi
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Lodian wrote on Oct 18, 2009 11:28 PM:
"It pains me to share the same planet as Leonard."
Brian gets so dramatic when he's been defeated. "
Leonard wrote on Oct 17, 2009 8:14 PM:
It pains me to share the same planet as Leonard.
Don't let the screen door hit you on the but on your way out. "
Brian wrote on Oct 17, 2009 7:38 PM:
" It is no coincidence that America, where the links between Church and State are the weakest, has the strongest religious community in the Western World. "
-And it is no coincidence the weak links
between Church and State are as a result of the progressives seeing how far they can push the envelope. And those that understand it has become too weak are afraid it has reached a tipping point and it may usher in a power vacuum for a theocracy to take over. Of course progressives like Leonard will continue to insist that weakening the links between the Church and State are crucial to keeping the religious community strong in the western world. It pains me to share the same planet as Leonard. "
Cogito wrote on Oct 16, 2009 9:59 PM:
Bob Hussein Loblaw wrote on Oct 16, 2009 6:28 PM:
Yeah. Hey Bryan, where is Bryan? "
Gator wrote on Oct 16, 2009 6:01 PM:
to curtail spending which they increased with out any problem. My Mother was about to
be taxed of her home along with thousands of other people. That was the beginning of
Vote no on every school bond the came along, as people do now they fail to hold the
Government accountable and we see the end result. But don’t blame those people anyone
That dose needs a size 13 where it will do the most good… "
Leonard wrote on Oct 16, 2009 5:38 PM:
Leonard wrote on Oct 16, 2009 5:28 PM:
" Leonard,
You're referring to those spreading lies on the internet and MSNBC about Rush? I can't help but wonder
how anyone could accuse Rush of being a racist when his own producer is Black.
Actually, I have no idea what you are talking about.
That said, the idea that someone can't be a racist just because they employ a black man is, prima facie, absurd. "
Brian wrote on Oct 16, 2009 4:35 PM:
" Brian wrote "To set the record straight Tom, I only post as Brian. I had a short stint as onelastthing, though."
LMAO! "
-LMAO!!!!!!!
Yes I do only post as Brian. What part of " I don't post as onelastthing anymore" don't you understand? "
Brian wrote on Oct 16, 2009 4:32 PM:
You're referring to those spreading lies on the internet and MSNBC about Rush? I can't help but wonder
how anyone could accuse Rush of being a racist when his own producer is Black. "
Leonard wrote on Oct 16, 2009 1:31 PM:
Revelation 21:8
A point for some to ponder.
:) "
Lodian wrote on Oct 16, 2009 12:55 PM:
LMAO! "
Lodian wrote on Oct 16, 2009 12:53 PM:
Lodian wrote on Oct 16, 2009 12:50 PM:
Leonard wrote on Oct 16, 2009 11:26 AM:
The protection of conservative posters seems to be a new policy here at the LNS, witness the recent affair with Jerry Kimono. "
Brian wrote on Oct 16, 2009 8:37 AM:
To be honest, I thought you were just an incarnation of the poster "Brian" who tends to generate about a dozen new monikers each week in a pathetic attempt to make it appear that someone (anyone) agrees with him. New posters are pretty rare on this forum so I assumed that you must be a Brian avatar.
-See Tom. Oh but you couldn't possibly aggree with anything I have to say. You're in for quite a ride here. "
Brian wrote on Oct 16, 2009 8:12 AM:
" Leonard, you're obsessing again.
-THE UNDERSTATEMENT OF THE CENTURY.
I mentioned the "N" word ONCE and he just won't let it rest. I suspect he feels Rush shouldn't own part of the football team either EVEN though the
person called Sternley who produces the show is black. But that won't keep the left from blackballing Rush. You know how liberals use blacks for their own agenda. In the grand scheme of things they don't care about them. "
Brian wrote on Oct 16, 2009 8:03 AM:
I can already tell you're going to go toe to toe with Leonard just based on your conservatism. I don't need to tell you how ruthless liberals can be. "
rantraves wrote on Oct 16, 2009 7:37 AM:
Leonard wrote on Oct 16, 2009 7:28 AM:
To be honest, I thought you were just an incarnation of the poster "Brian" who tends to generate about a dozen new monikers each week in a pathetic attempt to make it appear that someone (anyone) agrees with him. New posters are pretty rare on this forum so I assumed that you must be a Brian avatar.
In short, I apologize for jumping the gun and assuming that you were someone that you are not. I hope you can forgive me.
In any case, after you have been here for a while and seen Brian use the n word a couple of times or perhaps conduct a discussion on his belief that blacks are "inferior", perhaps you will understand the vehement disgust most of us feel regarding this individual.
In the mean time, Pax.
-Lenny "
Tom2 wrote on Oct 16, 2009 5:51 AM:
It was implied because most understand. Your inference revealed you didn't understand and in fact, still don't. It's not a racist term because the term race does not comprise Muslims. Your accusation is based on ignorance and intended to smear. You wouldn't seem so ignorant if you'd stick to the issues. School's out now so go upstairs and get some fresh air. "
Leonard wrote on Oct 16, 2009 4:48 AM:
Cogito wrote on Oct 15, 2009 9:13 PM:
Leonard wrote on Oct 15, 2009 6:01 PM:
" Leonard, I'm glad we agree on our superiority over those smelly Euroweenies.
Small testicles too. Your church wouldn't stand a chance over there.
And I think we should tax private schools when we start taxing public schools.
Well, IF you plan were to be implemented, that would be essential to create a level playing field. "
Cogito wrote on Oct 15, 2009 5:47 PM:
Leonard wrote on Oct 15, 2009 5:41 PM:
" No Leonard, I do not want churches taxed, I was simply making a statement. The majority of education going on in Christian schools is not religious in nature. It's the same as public schools.
Would you tax church schools that received government funding? "
Leonard wrote on Oct 15, 2009 5:40 PM:
" So why do you think the enlightened Europeans have no problem with their government paying to build churches, when here in America people nut out if a proposal is made for a kid to go th a Christian school using public money?
Obviously, America is superior to Europe.
Was there ever any question of this fact? "
Cogito wrote on Oct 15, 2009 5:38 PM:
Cogito wrote on Oct 15, 2009 5:34 PM:
Leonard wrote on Oct 15, 2009 5:31 PM:
" Leonard, Sweden has state sponsored religion.
And Church attendance in Sweden is around 8% (vs 59% in America) which, of course, is exactly what I am talking about. "
Leonard wrote on Oct 15, 2009 5:28 PM:
" Leonard, where's your objection to state sponsored political propaganda in our classrooms? Could you have imagined the political/media uproar had those kids been singing the praises of President Bush only a few years ago? People would have snapped. You know I'm right! "
No, I don't even have a clue what you are talking about, other than that it is a red herring.
For the record, however, I do not think school children should be forced to sing the praises of any political leader.
Now are you happy? "
Cogito wrote on Oct 15, 2009 5:27 PM:
Leonard wrote on Oct 15, 2009 5:26 PM:
" Lodian, fair enough. Leonard, so you would prefer your religious instruction to remain as it is, tax exempt?
So, are you suggesting that, in addition to funding religious education, the State will now be taxing religious institutions? "
Cogito wrote on Oct 15, 2009 5:26 PM:
Leonard wrote on Oct 15, 2009 5:23 PM:
Leonard wrote on Oct 15, 2009 5:22 PM:
Leonard wrote on Oct 15, 2009 5:21 PM:
" So let me get this straight, Lodian and Leonard do not find it objectionable for tax dollar funded schools to teach the kids to sing a song praising Obama, but you would find it objectionable to fund a school who would teach the kids a song praising Jesus. He really is your messiah isn't he.
This post is beneath you. On a personal level, of course I have no objection to people praying to Jesus. As a citizen, however, I am deeply opposed to state sponsored religions, even if the religion in question happens to be my own.
As a side note, I would suggest that you look at what has happened to those Churches in Western Europe which have been subsidized by their governments. Love may be the strongest bond but money is a close second and once a fiscal chain is forged between the Church and the State, religion is simply bound to suffer. "
Ivan Dixon wrote on Oct 15, 2009 5:10 PM:
Replace public schools with vouchers with the proviso that the vouchers cannot be used at schools that provide religious instruction. Phase the whole thing in over ten years so that private enterprise has time to create a new private, secular education industry.
The current batch of religious schools will be no worse off than they are now and entrepreneurs will have the opportunity of a lifetime to create an entire new industry from scratch. "
Cogito wrote on Oct 15, 2009 3:55 PM:
Leonard wrote on Oct 15, 2009 3:40 PM:
" Leonard, I think it is impossible to be an American and have the government spend money on things you agree with exclusively.
The point isn't that they are morally objectionable (although they are). The point is that using public money to fund religious instruction is constitutionally objectionable. "
Lodian wrote on Oct 15, 2009 2:26 PM:
" Lodian, do you object to vouchers at all private schools, or only the church affiliated? "
I'm not sure yet. I need to hear more debate from both sides of the issue. "
Lodian wrote on Oct 15, 2009 2:25 PM:
" Lodian, do you object to students who get federal college grants attending Notre Dame?"
Interesting point. "
Cogito wrote on Oct 15, 2009 2:20 PM:
LodiFreeThinker wrote on Oct 15, 2009 2:07 PM:
What about other philosophical, political or ideological differences?
I for one would not appreciate my dollars going to fund schools that teach shoddy science, or revisionist history (although I think most history classes are guilty of this anyway, depending on which side of history your coming from).
I would not want my dollars going to support teachers who weren't periodically reviewed and held to a voluntary employment standard.
I surely wouldn't want my dollars going to support the teachers unions. Indirect as it may be, voucher supports the school, which support the teacher who pay dues and belong to said unions.
Do I get to have this choice? I don't have it now. As I mentioned earlier, my dollars support all kinds of things I don't agree with.
I think a voucher system is a step in the right direction, even if it supports things I might not agree with.
It gives more power of choice to the parents, and creates competition, something that is badly needed in education. "
LodiFreeThinker wrote on Oct 15, 2009 1:59 PM:
Has anyone checked out the link I provided on 10/14@ 8:12?
Yeah, I read it. Friedman lays out the basic concepts of a voucher system. He's a pretty sharp guy, and I tend to agree with his assessment that the free market could do a lot better than the current government bureaucracy. Competition would bring higher quality and lower costs.
The interview doesn't directly address the concern about giving public dollars to private religious institutions though.
I'm still on the fence. I am a free market proponent, but I also believe very strongly in the separation of church and state.
While the government wouldn't be endorsing or promoting any particular use of the money, the fact that a large portion of the money would go into the church's pockets, rubs me the wrong way.
I'd rather eliminate that portion of the compulsory tax altogether, but I'd settle for a voucher system over what we have currently. "
Cogito wrote on Oct 15, 2009 1:50 PM:
Cogito wrote on Oct 15, 2009 1:42 PM:
Cogito wrote on Oct 15, 2009 1:40 PM:
Cogito wrote on Oct 15, 2009 1:38 PM:
Lodian wrote on Oct 15, 2009 1:17 PM:
Lodian wrote on Oct 15, 2009 1:14 PM:
Lodian wrote on Oct 15, 2009 12:59 PM:
"I see Leonard's again busy projecting that nobody could possibly be as smart as him."
Inferiority complex? lol! "
Brian wrote on Oct 15, 2009 12:53 PM:
" Brian, you are still B-O-R-I-N-G whether you call yourself Brian or Tom. "
-There you have it Tom. See what I mean? "
LodiFreeThinker wrote on Oct 15, 2009 11:54 AM:
" What about a government who has CPS abscond your children because they object to what you've named them? Do you find that to be a policy of a free nation? "
I don't. Not one bit.
Should we investigate cases of criminal abuse? Yes, but in our current system, reason seems to go out the window when children are involved.
Cries of "For the love of God, won't someone think of the children?!" drown out liberty and justice for all. The children most of all. "
LodiFreeThinker wrote on Oct 15, 2009 11:49 AM:
It does not have to cost thousands of dollars per year to get an education.
Abraham Lincoln received about 18 months of formal instruction, and was otherwise completely self taught.
Also, I would expect there would be charitable organizations that would run and/or support schools that specialized in the education of the poor.
As an absolute last resort, we could have a limited government assistance program for the truly needy to get an education. Even then, however, I don't think the government should run it, but rather give support to the above mentioned charities. "
Cogito wrote on Oct 15, 2009 11:40 AM:
Cogito wrote on Oct 15, 2009 11:38 AM:
Leonard wrote on Oct 15, 2009 11:35 AM:
I'll stick with a call to eliminate, or significantly reduce the public education system altogether, along with a corresponding reduction in taxes.
So, if you eliminate public education, what will the children of the truly destitute (a growing population in the current crisis) do for education? "
LodiFreeThinker wrote on Oct 15, 2009 11:27 AM:
I think I may alter my position a bit then.
While I think offering more choice and accountability, would be a benefit of a voucher system, it wouldn't be very fair for public money to go to fund private religious education.
I'll stick with a call to eliminate, or significantly reduce the public education system altogether, along with a corresponding reduction in taxes.
I could easily afford to educate my own children in the way I see fit, as I suspect most people could if the 55% of our State budget was given back to them. "
Leonard wrote on Oct 15, 2009 11:17 AM:
Leonard wrote on Oct 15, 2009 11:15 AM:
" My Money is used for things I find to be objectionable every day. This is simply a fact of a compulsory tax system.
Perhaps, but the First Amendment protects me from having to financially support other people's religious indoctrination. "
LodiFreeThinker wrote on Oct 15, 2009 11:14 AM:
At least in a voucher system, each parent will get to decide the kinds of things they want there kids portion of that money to go toward.
If a school taught things that no decent person would want, I think that school would very quickly find itself out of business.
Of course if you really believe in having control over how your money is spent, lets repeal these taxes altogether and let parents keep the money and make their own choices in the first place. "
Leonard wrote on Oct 15, 2009 11:07 AM:
" Leonard, public funds are monies taken from the people.
Exactly!
What you are doing is demanding that my money be used to fund the religious activities of groups that I find morally objectionable.
No thank you please. "
Leonard wrote on Oct 15, 2009 11:05 AM:
I am sure the reality is much uglier than anything I can conjure. "
Tom2 wrote on Oct 15, 2009 10:40 AM:
Cogito wrote on Oct 15, 2009 10:30 AM:
Leonard wrote on Oct 15, 2009 9:13 AM:
Leonard wrote on Oct 15, 2009 9:11 AM:
" Leonard, I just checked with her. Her school, at a Baptist Church, teaches that God was the creator, and that organisms do evolve over time. There you go.
So, you are also OK with Wiccans using public money to teach witchcraft and Satanists using public funds to teach whatever the hell it is they believe?
I find all of that a little too much to bear. "
Leonard wrote on Oct 15, 2009 9:10 AM:
" Leonard, is Biology a required subject in public schools? ?
It is for children who want to attend University. "
Cogito wrote on Oct 15, 2009 9:05 AM:
Cogito wrote on Oct 15, 2009 9:01 AM:
Cogito wrote on Oct 15, 2009 8:59 AM:
Leonard wrote on Oct 15, 2009 8:54 AM:
Leonard wrote on Oct 15, 2009 8:53 AM:
" Leonard, I said that standards equivalent to the public schools should be met. After that, they should be able to teach their philosophy and worldview as long as it is non-violent.
Come on Cog, lets be explicit here. Under the system you advocate, would Baptists be allowed to teach creationism in the place of Biology? Similarly, would Wiccans be allowed to use public funds to teach metaphysics in the place of Physics? "
Brian wrote on Oct 15, 2009 8:29 AM:
Brian wrote on Oct 15, 2009 8:27 AM:
Did you see the public school kids all singing the Obama song?
-Indoctrination? You know Leonard
won't stand for this insinuation. :) "
Brian wrote on Oct 15, 2009 8:24 AM:
Your reputation precedes you. As Tom2 is finding out. "
Brian wrote on Oct 15, 2009 8:22 AM:
" Tom2 wrote on Oct 14, 2009 12:55 PM:
A new poster who thinks Obama is a socialist and hates Muslims? Let me guess, he also hates women and blacks while he wishes he hated gay men a little more.
How's the weather down there in Phoenix, Tom? "
-Tom,
Since you're new to these bloggs, I feel obligated to let ypou know that Leonard and his fray will do everything to discredit you. And I see he's already
trying to connect you with me. I live in Phoenix. Read soome of my exchanges with him. He's quite the troublemaker.
He has you in his crosshairs. But you're doing a good job tsking him to task. "
Cogito wrote on Oct 15, 2009 7:57 AM:
Leonard wrote on Oct 15, 2009 6:22 AM:
" Leonard, since you smeared me with lies
Tommie, it is you who smeared yourself with your own racist filth.
No doubt you will linger on these fora like rancid curry flatulence in a broken down elevator car but let me be the first to encourage you to take your hateful bigotry and stick it where the sun doesn't shine. "
Leonard wrote on Oct 15, 2009 6:20 AM:
Did I just insult pigs?
My apologies! "
Leonard wrote on Oct 15, 2009 6:20 AM:
If you are going to act like a pig, you should expect to be treated like a pig. "
Tom2 wrote on Oct 15, 2009 6:17 AM:
I also love my Kenyan nephew, the first Kenyan legally adopted in America, according to his mother. He's an honor student, athlete and hopes to become a pilot. Both his parents died of AIDS. To preclude your next accusation that I suffer from xenophobia, I also have many Latino cousins. I have only one gay friend but since gays total only about 2% of the population, that's pretty normal. He's old now and lives in another state but I hope he and his partner are happy and still together.
If you have the courage to respond, perhaps you'll address the issue this time instead of smearing me. "
Tom2 wrote on Oct 15, 2009 5:58 AM:
Phoenix? Sorry, you missed the mark by about 2,000 miles. Looks like you missed this issue too and simply tried to smear me. Since you didn't address the issue, I've concluded you're unable to defend your position. Seems you've resorted to an old lib tactic -- assault the messenger. Perhaps your support of this mightiest of government intrusions is irrational. Perhaps you learned debating tactics in a government school. Perhaps you didn't go to school. The world now wonders. Continued... "
Leonard wrote on Oct 15, 2009 5:15 AM:
A convenient evasion, I'm sure. "
rantraves wrote on Oct 14, 2009 10:48 PM:
tosh conn wrote on Oct 14, 2009 8:44 PM:
Cogito wrote on Oct 14, 2009 8:12 PM:
Cogito wrote on Oct 14, 2009 8:06 PM:
Cogito wrote on Oct 14, 2009 8:02 PM:
ginsil wrote on Oct 14, 2009 7:09 PM:
Leonard wrote on Oct 14, 2009 6:03 PM:
As a Christian, I have to say that I have a bit of a problem with my tax money going to pay for sacrificial chickens to be used in the Satanist High School biology lab. "
Leonard wrote on Oct 14, 2009 6:00 PM:
For example, would Baptists be able to teach that the world was literally created in 7 days and would Wiccans be able to teach that the world can be manipulated through sorcery and magic?
Either way, it seems like you would be setting us up for a world of seriously misinformed people. "
rantraves wrote on Oct 14, 2009 5:47 PM:
Cogito wrote on Oct 14, 2009 4:18 PM:
Leonard wrote on Oct 14, 2009 2:34 PM:
A new poster who thinks Obama is a socialist and hates Muslims? Let me guess, he also hates women and blacks while he wishes he hated gay men a little more.
How's the weather down there in Phoenix, Tom? "
Leonard wrote on Oct 14, 2009 2:31 PM:
you idiots
Apparently, they hadn't gotten around to the subject of irony by the time Stanley dropped out of the third grade. "
rantraves wrote on Oct 14, 2009 2:10 PM:
Lodian wrote on Oct 14, 2009 1:38 PM:
Unfortunately? Observer, the public schools are for the public and should never be able to "pick and choose" whom they are to educate. Wouldn't you agree? "
Lodian wrote on Oct 14, 2009 1:35 PM:
Observer wrote on Oct 14, 2009 12:56 PM:
Cogito wrote on Oct 14, 2009 12:55 PM:
Tom2 wrote on Oct 14, 2009 12:55 PM:
Otherwise, they'd have to forego whatever voucher arrangement is provided by law. And BTW, citizens and immigrants, with or without children in school, would still be required to contribute to an accredited private school of their choice. Such contributions should be required even if their kids continue at unaccredited schools, typical of what most Muslim schools will become. "
Cogito wrote on Oct 14, 2009 12:54 PM:
Leonard wrote on Oct 14, 2009 12:52 PM:
" Crystal Light? "
How about Coors Lite? To me, it always tastes like the end of a life wasted. "
Cogito wrote on Oct 14, 2009 12:49 PM:
Leonard wrote on Oct 14, 2009 12:47 PM:
" Leonard, where do you live. Concerning Prop. 13, 68% of people that were polled stated that you better leave Prop. 13 alone.
I currently live in Austin, Texas although I was born and bred in Lodi.
I have moved around a lot as an adult. My most recent stint of Lodi residency ended about two years ago.
As for 13, Californians have long wanted to have their cake and eat it too. This largely accounts for the sorry condition of the state today. "
dogs4you wrote on Oct 14, 2009 12:33 PM:
funyon wrote on Oct 14, 2009 12:29 PM:
funyon wrote on Oct 14, 2009 12:28 PM:
funyon wrote on Oct 14, 2009 12:26 PM:
Cogito wrote on Oct 14, 2009 11:45 AM:
Cogito wrote on Oct 14, 2009 11:42 AM:
Leonard wrote on Oct 14, 2009 11:31 AM:
" Funyon, quit drinking the Kool Aid.
Man, Cog, you sure are hooked on that Kool Aid metaphor. You need to change it up a little bit. How about every other post you throw in something about lemmings running off a cliff or something? "
funyon wrote on Oct 14, 2009 11:21 AM:
Cogito wrote on Oct 14, 2009 10:56 AM:
funyon wrote on Oct 14, 2009 10:47 AM:
Cogito wrote on Oct 14, 2009 10:17 AM:
funyon wrote on Oct 14, 2009 9:50 AM:
smokeater8 wrote on Oct 14, 2009 8:11 AM:
Leonard wrote on Oct 14, 2009 5:10 AM:
The fault for California's terrible public education system does not lie with the concept of public schools, it lies with the California voters poor choices. "
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