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Protesters march on the sidewalk before a special session of the Lodi City Council on Wednesday. (Dan Evans/News-Sentinel)

Lodi may be headed for prayer lawsuit

Freedom From Religion Foundation will 'see how it pans out'

By Maggie Creamer
News-Sentinel Staff Writer
Friday, October 2, 2009 11:15 AM PDT

The day after a highly anticipated decision by the Lodi City Council on prayer, the leader of a national group says it will likely sue Lodi or another city in California over their practices.

"We'll see how it pans out and probably will have to sue because there is widespread disrespect for the law in the state of California," said Annie Gaylor, co-founder of the Freedom From Religion Foundation.

Her comments come after the council decided to broaden its prayer policy to allow religious leaders to offer uncensored prayers, so Christian leaders will be able to say "Jesus Christ."

The council made some other changes and additions to the prayer policy:

— Invocations will be given before the meeting is called to order. Previously, the prayers happened after the meeting had been called to order and before the Pledge of Allegiance.

— The council will actively encourage all religious traditions within Lodi to give invocations. The city expanded this to include religious leaders who have to travel outside of Lodi to attend a place of worship like members of the Sikh or Jewish religions.

— Non-religious groups will have the opportunity to give a Call to Civic Responsibility.

— The council will continue to not allow invocations that seek to convert or demean a particular religious belief or lack thereof.

— The prayer will remain on the agenda, but there will also be a disclaimer saying the invocation is an acknowledgment of diverse religious traditions and is not an endorsement of any religion or belief.

The previous policy restricted prayer to "non-sectarian and nondenominational," but many religious leaders still said "Jesus Christ."

The Freedom From Religion Foundation, which is based in Madison, Wis., filed a letter to the city asking it enforce its own policy and eliminate references to Jesus.

Before filing a suit on the new policy, the foundation will watch the invocations under the new policy, Gaylor said.

She said the foundation will monitor the other cities in California the group has challenged — Tracy, Turlock and Tehachapi — to see what would be the best test case.

She is disappointed the council gave in to religious pressure, and hopes someday there will be a consequence for government leaders who push religion.

"There are no penalties for councilmembers," Gaylor said. "Public officials should have to answer for this instead of gambling with taxpayers' dollars."

But Century Assembly Pastor Dale Edwards said he is confident that allowing uncensored prayer will include all faiths while not restricting freedom of speech.

"I think that it allowed uncensored prayer for those of all faiths to be able to participate. For those of no faith, there was an allowance for them as well, and puts everyone on an equal playing field," Edwards said.

Edwards said he understands that the city might have to go to court over the decision, but also said there are many issues people will file lawsuits on. He believe it is courageous that the council took a stand.

"There is no guarantee that we are going to live in this country and someone is not going to be offended. ... We've lost civil liberties already. This is as far as we have to go," he said.

The city attorney's office will now draft a policy allowing uncensored prayer, and the council will vote on it at a future meeting.

The policy the council decided on Wednesday night will allow leaders to make religious references as long as they are not proselytizing.

Gaylor said opening the prayers up to anyone will be interesting because the council might become disenchanted with its own policy. She said the council might consider changing its policy after someone comes in and says the council can only be ethical if it doesn't believe in a God or says Allah should be worshipped as the only prophet.

Lodi United founder David Diskin said he wishes the city would have eliminated prayers before the meeting and gone to a moment of silence, but he will respect the council's decision. He said he would be honored to give a speech before the council meeting even though he is an atheist.

"We respect it, but we would have wished they would have opted for an option that eliminates the prayer, but instead lets them pray silently," Diskin said.

His group will still be watching the invocations to see if the city is opening it up to a variety of faiths, and to make sure they do not cross legal parameters.

"It's not the policy itself. It's the actions that take place because of the policy," Diskin said. "The actions of the next 12 months could be perfectly fine. The invocations could be non-denominational or they could be all calls for civic duty."

After hearing the council will continue prayer, Chaplain Gordon James Klingenschmitt said he was celebrating. Klingenschmitt founded The Pray in Jesus Name Project, which organized a prayer rally in August and has been encouraging Lodi to allow uncensored prayer.

"It's a testament to the faithfulness of Jesus Christ," he said. "God has answered our prayers. There were people who did a lot of things, but all the credit goes to Jesus."

He sent an e-mail to media outlets on Thursday saying it was "remarkable" timing that Mayor Larry Hansen voted for uncensored prayer after saying previously he supported non-denominational prayer. He attributes this switch in part to his press release saying he would post council votes on prayer on billboards on Highway 99 and Interstate 5.

"But Mayor Hansen, up for re-election next year, suddenly sees the light ... " Klingenschmitt wrote in reference to the billboards.

But Hansen vehemently denies the billboard threat had anything to do with his decision. He said he has been researching the issue and met with many members of the local clergy to come up with the best solution.

"If he's taking credit, that's about the saddest thing I've heard. ... I believe he has a pattern of taking credit. I believe he is in this for himself, and at some point, people will realize his true colors."

What was the previous policy?

In March 2006, the Lodi City Council adopted a protocol manual restricting prayers to "non-sectarian and non-denominational." Many religious leaders continued to make Christian references and say "Jesus Christ" even after the restriction was passed.

The Freedom From Religion Foundation interpreted the policy to mean that prayers should be devoid of any religious references to a specific religion. The group complained to the city in May demanding the council enforce its own policy or face litigation.

The policy also required that the city send invitations to any religious churches in Lodi that had shown an interest in giving an invocation.

What's the new policy?



The new policy will not censor anyone giving an invocation, so religious references will be allowed, including saying "Jesus Christ." The council added additional stipulations to make sure a wide variety of people are included.

— Invocations will be given before the meeting is called to order. Previously, the prayers happened after the meeting had been called to order and before the Pledge of Allegiance.

— The council will actively encourage all religious traditions within Lodi to give invocations. The city expanded this to include religious leaders who have to travel outside of Lodi to attend a place of worship like members of the Sikh or Jewish religions.

— Non-religious groups will have the opportunity to give a Call to Civic Responsibility.

— The council will continue to prohibit invocations that seek to convert or demean a particular religious belief or lack thereof.

— The prayer will remain on the agenda, but there will also be a disclaimer saying the invocation is an acknowledgment of diverse religious traditions and is not an endorsement of any religion or belief.

Reader Feedback

Brian wrote on Dec 31, 1969 4:00 PM:

" This Foundation knows damn well if they chose a larger city with a bigger budget for stuff like this, the lawsuit would have been thrown out of court long ago. So, in my opinion, this foundation has neither the gutebcf9b1924dea0a9b6f35d9201eeed "

Rhodie v2.0 wrote on Oct 9, 2009 1:19 PM:

" Lodian wrote " Rhodie: So, you think this whole fight for prayer at the cc meetings was not for public recognition?"
I believe there are religious leaders in this community who whole-heartedly and earnestly want to pray at CC meetings so the business done there is done with a moral compass in mind. I also know there are some who want to pray there just to make political statements and to evangilize.

"How about the groups insisting that Lodi keep prayer in Jesus name?"

I don't hold it against people who see everything they do, even deal with the government, as an opportunity to strive for unity with God's will. Some people don't compartmentalize their faith, pulling it out when it is convienent.

"How about the threats to the council insisting they keep prayer at these government meetings, or else? Sure, they're all humble and not about public recognition. Bologna."
I addressed this when it happened as well, saing "I do however think it is distasteful and not Christ-like behavior".
But I wasn't addrssing any of this with my 9:44 response, only the half-truth that Chirstians are ordered by God to only pray in private. "

Lodian wrote on Oct 9, 2009 12:05 PM:

" Rhodie: So, you think this whole fight for prayer at the cc meetings was not for public recognition? How about the groups insisting that Lodi keep prayer in Jesus name? How about the threats to the council insisting they keep prayer at these government meetings, or else? Sure, they're all humble and not about public recognition. Bologna. "

Rhodie v2.0 wrote on Oct 9, 2009 9:44 AM:

" Lodian wrote on Oct 9, 2009 12:13 AM:

" So, what if it is the belief of some people that it is not right to pray out-loud in public, like it says in the Bible?

This was addressed a week ago:

Rhodie wrote on Oct 2, 2009 2:48 PM:

The first is cited as a reason not to pray in public all the time but misses the main point, that is where we are told not to pray in public like the hypocrites do for all to see. The pray at home crowd uses this to say "see, you shouldn't pray in public". The part missed is "who love to pray publicly on street corners and in the synagogues where everyone can see them." In the passage the people praying in public are doing so solely for the recognition of others, not for the intent of prayer. "

Lodian wrote on Oct 9, 2009 12:13 AM:

" So, what if it is the belief of some people that it is not right to pray out-loud in public, like it says in the Bible? Isn't the city now excluding the beliefs of these people? Why are they excluded? "

Lodian wrote on Oct 6, 2009 5:28 PM:

" Ruth wrote "The new policy welcomes prayers to the devil and ignores the fact that Jesus said to pray in private and not to ask for anything, as the father already knows your needs!"

You're right, Ruth. "

Ruth1940 wrote on Oct 5, 2009 6:34 PM:

" Some policy: — Non-religious groups will have the opportunity to give a Call to Civic Responsibility.

No civic responsibility at other times? How silly!

The new policy welcomes prayers to the devil and ignores the fact that Jesus said to pray in private and not to ask for anything, as the father already knows your needs! Quit insulting him (if he exists)! Surely the time and money being spent on public prayer, arguing and litigating it, would be better used to improve the world! "

linengray wrote on Oct 5, 2009 2:22 PM:

" HELLO, Isn't anyone going to look at the basic issue here?
The Lodi City Council rules and procedures protocol manual. Since at least 2006 it has been part of this document that "Invocations are to be non-sectarian and non-denominational". See section 6.3i.
So why are they not following their own rules and regulations. That is all I am asking. Could someone explain that? "

leah wrote on Oct 4, 2009 3:46 AM:

" LodiEye said, "anti-religious groups are going to try to run God out of our lives."

To me, God and religion have nothing to do with one another. I believe in God, NOT religion.

rantraves said, "In a "nutshell" the godless see the solution to our problems with the removal of God"

Not all the people against this are "godless". I am against it and I believe in God. But my God doesn't need to be addressed at a City Council Meeting. Especially when it makes people uncomfortable.

jnnym: Then why are you wasting your time on this board? Go heal the wounded. "

Robb wrote on Oct 3, 2009 7:29 PM:

" Lodieye:

I am curious.., how long did it take for you to believe the crap that you are spewing?? "

Lodian wrote on Oct 3, 2009 4:21 PM:

" LodiEye wrote "Wake up America, these anti-religious groups are going to try to run God out of our lives."

Only you can run God out of your life. "

rantraves wrote on Oct 3, 2009 8:51 AM:

" jnnym wrote that there are other problems that need our attention. If he understood that the advocates of christian prayer believe the worlds problems have been exasperated because the lack of prayer ( faith in a higher power ), he would start to understand what this conflict is really all about. Further more, if he understood that many of those who wish to remove Christ from the public forum believe that Christianity is at the source of our problems, he would then have to choose sides. In a "nutshell" the godless see the solution to our problems with the removal of God; and the religious see the solution coming from God. All I know is that we have been removing God from the public forum for decades, and all that we have ever gotten from that strategy is a system of governance that only gets more corrupt by the day -- Good job LCC; be strong. "

LodiEye wrote on Oct 3, 2009 12:22 AM:

" Well, as I sit here looking at my last 20 dollar bill, I notice its saying "In God we trust" We swear in the President on what? Answer for the foundation---a Bible. Wake up America, these anti-religious groups are going to try to run God out of our lives. We are giving up some of our Constitutional rights, at least watering them down.

I stand, with hand over my heart when the National Anthem is played, when we pledge the flag. My church displays not only a christian flag but an American flag in my church. I have a son who is fighting overseas for the right of freedom of religion, someone said it earlier, not freedom FROM religion. To those who want to seperate God from government and our nation, might I suggest you leave? Only issue you will have is finding a country where there is no God. "

capricho wrote on Oct 2, 2009 11:28 PM:

" I am torn between being an athiest and an Orthodox Christian but I must say that this issue, for me, was handled with an appropriate level of reason and careful consideration by the council. I have no opposition to any faith (or non-faith) giving an invocation nor do I think such an act violates the second amendment.

This issue is as harmless as the words, 'In God We Trust' on our currency. The athiest part of me is not offended by this iconic quote.

If anything, we all could use a bit more faith in these uncertain times. "

jnnym wrote on Oct 2, 2009 10:37 PM:

" You know there are more important things that we need to focus on than this thing about prayer. Why doesn't this group try to stop child abuse, gangs, violence, drugs, pornography, mis-use of the welfare system, cancer, aids, war, people dying from hunger, or are these things too difficult for them to take on? "

sven31 wrote on Oct 2, 2009 6:38 PM:

" I'm not sure this means banning God from an invocation. I think it means not bringing up Jesus, which many of these invocations have as part. Many religions don't worship Jesus or believe he ever existed, as opposed to most religions believing in God. "

T & C wrote on Oct 2, 2009 6:26 PM:

" Semper Fi to all my "Brothers"; retired, active, disabled, reserve, and "Passed away! God Bless America! "

dogs4you wrote on Oct 2, 2009 6:09 PM:

" Gator: OK lets give the Navy some credit. Speaking of the Navy, my grandson is aboard the USS Normandy CG 60 somewhere in the Atlantic for 3 weeks playing war games. When they don`t need him to put out a fire, he mans a 50 cal. port side aft. There`s a 5'' cannon in the bow that can fire a round every 3 seconds and is radar controled, it`s a can miss weapon and a pirate killer. "

Gator wrote on Oct 2, 2009 5:55 PM:

" US Marine Corp, Department of the Navy!!! "

dogs4you wrote on Oct 2, 2009 5:19 PM:

" God or praying doesn`t keep this country free, the United States Marine Corps does, so let`s give a big HELL Ya for the Corps. "

Brian wrote on Oct 2, 2009 5:07 PM:

" jeff wrote on Oct 2, 2009 8:47 AM:

" brian, you really have no idea how our court system works do you. "


-Jeff,
Tell us why you ASSUME I don't know how our court system works. "

Lodian wrote on Oct 2, 2009 3:51 PM:

" The blog at the top of the page, that stays there due to the date stamp, slows down a blog and maybe even end it sooner rather than later. "

Lodian wrote on Oct 2, 2009 3:48 PM:

" Mazie wroet "The more i think about this the madder i get."

Have you always been "madder"? lol!

http://www.merriam-webster.com/art/dict/madder.htm



. "

leah wrote on Oct 2, 2009 3:23 PM:

" Rhodie said "rooting for a sports team. You can do it from your own house, cheering and screaming as you see fit. But being in public with others that feel the way you do brings unity, strength and a feeling of acceptance.

Isn't that what church is for? You can go cheer for your 'team' with others who want to cheer for the same team every gosh darn Sunday. And probably on Wednesdays nights, and potlucks and bible studies too! Or do you choose not to go to church, therefore forcing others to have to sit through church practices at a town meeting? (And when I say 'you' I mean everyone who is in favor of prayer..not attacking you personally)

Rhodie said "People who don't like that team feel like outsiders, and I recognize that. But as long as people who don't care about sports aren't insulted or attacked, why should one group supress their enthusiasm so another group can continue not care? "

So what, just screw the people who feel like outsiders? "

MEP wrote on Oct 2, 2009 3:22 PM:

" Rhodie - 'People who don't like that team feel like outsiders, and I recognize that.'

That's it exactly, congrats. "

Billy Rubin wrote on Oct 2, 2009 3:03 PM:

" Well, that makes more sense than most of your other opinions. "

Rhodie wrote on Oct 2, 2009 2:57 PM:

" Love to continue this debate but I have to clean before company comes tonight. "

Rhodie wrote on Oct 2, 2009 2:57 PM:

" Sorry, MEP, others argue that banning prayer is against the constitution, infringing on their freedom of religion. In this case, the freedom to gather and pray in public as thier religion tells them is appropriate.

Anyway, back to Leah. Look at it this way (since I know at least one person out there just LOVES when I use analogies), rooting for a sports team. You can do it from your own house, cheering and screaming as you see fit. But being in public with others that feel the way you do brings unity, strength and a feeling of acceptance. People who don't like that team feel like outsiders, and I recognize that. But as long as people who don't care about sports aren't insulted or attacked, why should one group supress their enthusiasm so another group can continue not care? "

Rhodie wrote on Oct 2, 2009 2:48 PM:

" Leah, there are two opposing types of praying in public.

The first is cited as a reason not to pray in public all the time but misses the main point, that is where we are told not to pray in public like the hypocrites do for all to see. The pray at home crowd uses this to say "see, you shouldn't pray in public". The part missed is "who love to pray publicly on street corners and in the synagogues where everyone can see them." In the passage the people praying in public are doing so solely for the recognition of others, not for the intent of prayer.

The second type are those who are praying in public not to be seen (recognized as pious) but to rather with heartfelt intent to open themselves up for God's will and to encourage others to do the same. Praying at home accomplishes the first part, opening self up, but the second part, encourtaging others can't be done from home. "

MEP wrote on Oct 2, 2009 2:45 PM:

" Rhodie wrote 'For Christians, attending any meeting (even Government meetings) with the intent of being gathering in His name is a core value. Telling them they cannot have their core value because it offends you tells them you don't want them recognizing that central value of their faith.' The fact if it is offensive or not is NOT the point, it is unconstitutional. "

Rhodie wrote on Oct 2, 2009 2:37 PM:

" MEP wrote on Oct 2, 2009 2:27 PM: " Rhodie - There's more magic mumbo jumbo in your statement than 40 leigons of Siegfried and Roy's!"

You asked a question about God, I answered. I can't help it if you don't like the answer.

Leah wrote: "The point is...why do you have to pray in a public place? Can't you say your prayer in private at home before you leave for the meeting?"

I'm sure a lot of people do pray before coming to the meetings. I haven't been to one so I can't speak for myself. As for the prayer in public at the meetings some of the resistance could come from Matt 18:20 "For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them" (note: It doesn't say He's happy with what they are doing.) For Christians, attending any meeting (even Government meetings) with the intent of being gathering in His name is a core value. Telling them they cannot have their core value because it offends you tells them you don't want them recognizing that central value of their faith. "

MEP wrote on Oct 2, 2009 2:33 PM:

" Leah - make sure you pray BEFORE you say the pledge. God and Country you know. "

leah wrote on Oct 2, 2009 2:28 PM:

" I don't think anyone is arguing the fact that everyone has the right to choose God. You could choose the Flying Spaghetti Monster for all anyone cares (he's been very popular lately). The point is...why do you have to pray in a public place? Can't you say your prayer in private at home before you leave for the meeting? Is there only a certain time alotted before an activity for your prayer to be heard?

Welp, goin to the grocery store. When I get there I better stop and pray to God in the isle where everybody can see me because I'm sure he wants to have a say in which laundry soap I'll buy. It's probably almost as important to him as what the Lodi City Council has on their agenda. "

MEP wrote on Oct 2, 2009 2:27 PM:

" Rhodie - There's more magic mumbo jumbo in your statement than 40 leigons of Siegfried and Roy's! "

dogs4you wrote on Oct 2, 2009 2:24 PM:

" Mazie puts her foot in her mouth stating that you don`t see God banned from Christian schools, DDDddddaaaaaaaa. As with anything, all the local hacks will make up the CC`s mind for them, and everyone by a 5-4 vote. Say what you want, the lawyers will have the last word and take your money. "

Gator wrote on Oct 2, 2009 2:08 PM:

" So much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot.” "

Rhodie wrote on Oct 2, 2009 2:02 PM:

" MEP wrote on Oct 2, 2009 10:08 AM: " Mazie, I love your well thoughtout explains. Maybe you can clear something up for me. Why would you whorship a god who allows himself to be banned from anything?"

MEP, May I address this one? The true Christian understanding of God is all about choice. It is believed that Humans were placed above the angels after creation because of choice. The angels always knew, accepted and Loved God (even Lucifer), but Creation came along and was given the power of choice giving us a closer relationship with God.

Now, how does that apply to your question, God isn't allowing Himself to be removed, He is allowing us to choose Him or not. This is why so many Christians get worked up about removing God from anything, they (we) don't like the concept of NOT choosing God. If God wanted Creation to be as the angels, accepting with no real choice then He could do it. As Jesus said in the Garden, God could send 40 legion of angel to defend Him, but that would take away the choice aspect. "

MEP wrote on Oct 2, 2009 1:22 PM:

" Mazie writes, 'People have removed God, yet God is never gone.' Oh, I see. Using your logic, I can prove that removing god from PUBLIC schools has completely eliminated elephant attacks within city limits. Because as we all know god causes elephants to attack people. "

pooreastside wrote on Oct 2, 2009 1:17 PM:

" Right on, Mazie. MEP, Allah is next. "

wtf wrote on Oct 2, 2009 12:18 PM:

" Democracy must be something more than two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner. --James Bovard, Civil Libertarian (1994) "

Jerome R. Kinderman wrote on Oct 2, 2009 12:13 PM:

" dyan - what might be "nonsense" to you is not necessarily the same to others. This debate is at our doorstep and is as valid as anything else.

To the question of why this isn't going to the Supreme Court; it is. And this is precisely what this has been about. Lodi was chosen as the start. There was no way this was not going to wind up in the courts. The Ninth Circuit is "the" court for such a matter to find its way to the Supreme Nine in D.C.

To have thought the City Council's decision would have been the end is quite naive. These strangers to Lodi don't care about us or what we do here - they simply want to eradicate any form of "religion" from the face of our national map; and they'll do anything they can to accomplish that goal.

They're relying upon a nation that has so lost its way morally that soon we very well might see the elimination of the First Amendment altogether. And why not? Political Correctness will replace our Bill of Rights, unless we stop them. "

dyan wrote on Oct 2, 2009 11:21 AM:

" Is this crazy or what? Iran is getting nukes. NK has nukes. The economy sucks. Unemployment is 10% and rising. Taxes and inflation will soon go through the roof, and we're debating this nonsense? "

linengray wrote on Oct 2, 2009 11:02 AM:

" I am sorry but has anyone read the Lodi City Council rules and procedures protocol manual. Since at least 2006 it has been part of this document that "Invocations are to be non-sectarian and non-denominational". See section 6.3i.
So why are they not following their own rules and regulations. That is all I am asking. Could someone explain that? "

dogs4you wrote on Oct 2, 2009 10:55 AM:

" Time to Lawyer up, perhaps the same lawyer that put the breaks on WalMart might represent Lodi in the most ridiculous lawsuit I have ever heard of. The CC is the "biggest looser" of all for allowing Barnum and Baily to proceed. "

Aarinaga wrote on Oct 2, 2009 10:44 AM:

" The strangest thing about this whole battle is that the groups and people who are threatening the lawsuit are not from Lodi. That would be like me going into my neighbors home and randomly redecorating as I saw fit. When did America become a minority democracy? Since when did we try to go with minority rule. I always thought that once the majority had spoken that was supposed to be it. Also of note is another country that doesn't allow prayer in public... China. Are we suddenly a communist country. Lodi went from the verge of insolvency to financial security during uncertain times with the CC using "Jesus" during prayer. Why not let that serve notice to those council's and other cities who neglect to follow any moral code. In the Words of Prentiss Miller, " What's so bad about Jesus?" What did he ever do to any of the people who hide behind freedom in order to mask their hatred of accountability? If you don't live in Lodi you should have no say in the matter. Where do the leaders of this movement live? "

Mazie wrote on Oct 2, 2009 10:20 AM:

" MEP: And you don't see God banned from Christian schools. The battle between good and evil has been going on from the beginning of time. We were given freedom of choice and sadly, some have chosen the way of Satan. It was the choice of the fallen ones who have removed God from everything. People have removed God, yet God is never gone. "

MEP wrote on Oct 2, 2009 10:10 AM:

" That should read, "well thoughtout explainations." "

MEP wrote on Oct 2, 2009 10:08 AM:

" Mazie, I love your well thoughtout explains. Maybe you can clear something up for me. Why would you whorship a god who allows himself to be banned from anything? You don't see Allah getting banned from Muslim schools. Just saying... "

Cogito wrote on Oct 2, 2009 10:00 AM:

" 4civilRights, you don't know the difference between a staff meeting and a public forum? "

Mazie wrote on Oct 2, 2009 9:52 AM:

" Civil: and maybe if they stopped banning God from everything, this world would not be in such bad shape. They removed God from our schools and now look at the kids in school, they carry guns and do drugs. They are now worthless and have no sense of values. When I grew up, parents taught their kids values and about God. We never had to lock the doors when we left and we left the keys in our cars all the time. Now we have kids (and grown ups) with no values who will steal you blind. When you remove God, He is replaced by evil. You can disagree with this all you want, but it is the truth. Look around you. "

4CivilRights wrote on Oct 2, 2009 9:13 AM:

" Dear Brian: Check the date/time settings on your computer. You might not have them set correctly. "

4CivilRights wrote on Oct 2, 2009 9:07 AM:

" I hope they file the lawsuit. It is becoming increasingly embarrassing to be a Lodi resident. This is just the latest in a long line of humiliations. Prayer has no place in government. An employee of San Joaquin County could not begin staff meetings with prayer & get away with it. The County would be sued -- and lose if they contested. Government and religion simply don't mix. They were not intended to and the sooner the Council learns that, the better off all Lodians will be. "

Bob Hussein Loblaw wrote on Oct 2, 2009 9:03 AM:

" Bryan is just excited because he/she can legally carry a gun into a bar in Arizona now. Looks like his/her prayers were answered. "

jeff wrote on Oct 2, 2009 8:47 AM:

" brian, you really have no idea how our court system works do you. "

rantraves wrote on Oct 2, 2009 8:44 AM:

" Rhodie: Thanks for bringing the "call to duty" aspect to everyone's attention; it's an important point to establish that city business is in no way being interfered with. "

Gator wrote on Oct 2, 2009 8:41 AM:

" I have never understood what all the fuss is over ! You won’t be arrested if
you don’t read the Bible, Koran or the Book of Mormon. The roof of the Church Won’t come crashing down if I who doesn’t go that often walk in some Sunday.. I think a Country the has more Junkies, more Murders more divorce More people behind Bars than all the countries of the western world combined could use a little guidance . Accountability to some one is a good
reason to shun Religion. Some think they can do what they want with little
recourse if they don’t have to answer to a so-called higher power. As for the
Invocations at city meetings, if you chose not to listen, I-Pod and head phones.. Lastly “A Man hears what he wants to and disregards the Rest..” "

Brian wrote on Oct 2, 2009 8:26 AM:

" http://ffrf.org/news/2009/philprayer.php

FFRF Contests Philadelphia City Council Prayers

-This foundation is just a bunch of panty waistes. They won't file a lawsuit against the City of Philadelphia. "

Brian wrote on Oct 2, 2009 8:21 AM:

" I haven't figured out how to time travel yet. This 1969 thing seems to be a recurring problem with the bloggs. "

Brian wrote on Oct 2, 2009 8:18 AM:

" The very freedom of speech this foundation wants to deny in the CC meetings is the very freedom of speech
that grants them the right to spew their trash from their hateful website. "

Brian wrote on Oct 2, 2009 8:07 AM:

" guts nor the intentions of going after a bigger city because they already know what the outcome would be. "

Brian wrote on Oct 2, 2009 7:56 AM:

" This lady seems to want to make a spectacle of herself. Instead of just quietly going away, she's becoming an irritant to the vast majority of the people in Lodi. If She's so hell bent on removing these invocations why not take it to the highest court in the land? Of course she won't because she'd be the laughing stock in Washington D.C.
And Obama would be right there telling her and this stupid foundation she represents how out of line they are.
They should be obligated to reimburse the City of Lodi for all of the legal fees they have because of this FRIVILOUS
lawsuit. "

OTH wrote on Oct 2, 2009 7:50 AM:

" To anyone who was at Wed. nights meeting

It was reported on I believe Channel 13 news that the city attorney and another attorney in the audience recommended to the council that this policy not be adopted. I have not heard or read anything about that since. Can anyone confirm this or was it just the media spicing things up as they have been known to do? "

Jeff wrote on Oct 2, 2009 7:28 AM:

" crazy mazie, many people, including myself, would say the same of you. "

Rhodie wrote on Oct 2, 2009 7:04 AM:

" My question is if the five policy points are adhered to then which religion is endorsed by the state that makes continued prayer (or calls to civic duty) illegal? The standard is freedom OF, not freedom FROM. If all religions who want to participate are invited then it is freedom OF with no specific religion given preferance (thus no illusion of state sponsored religion).

I think those that lead the prayer or call to duty should be members of the community, not outsiders coming in. They should also be people who are community leaders, that is people who are active in community groups, issues, and outreaches.

An interesting side thought is the prayer, call to duty is to be done BEFORE the call to order so it is done BEFORE state business is conducted. "

Mazie wrote on Oct 2, 2009 6:07 AM:

" The more i think about this the madder i get. To Gaynor: for someone who claims not to believe in Jesus as much as you do...you sure seem afraid of Him!!! If there is no Jesus, then what difference does it make to Whom we pray? Why should that bother the likes of you? And with the economy as it is, why would you even consider suing a city over someone you claim does not exist? Live and let live. I pray Jesus will forgive you. "

Mazie wrote on Oct 2, 2009 5:48 AM:

" I would not want to be Gaylor for anything in the world. There has got to be a way to stop this evil person, I have NEVER witnessed such hatred toward Jesus Christ in my life, NEVER! I do feel sorry for her soul, but hey, you get what you ask for. I just hope I live long enough to see it. If they succeed in stopping prayers during the meetings, let's just everyone get together on the steps before each and every meeting and we will pray WITH THE COUNCIL MEMBERS, and will pray in Jesus' name every single time. They cannot stop that! God have mercy on their souls, or lack of. "

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