Indexes
February 8th, 2010
February 6th, 2010
February 5th, 2010
February 4th, 2010
February 3rd, 2010
February 2nd, 2010
February 1st, 2010
The following stories have received the most reader comments during the last 7 days.
- Will terrorists be given Miranda warnings? (69)
- President Obama's first year (67)
- Lodi Unified School District president issues warning to speakers over cuts (64)
- Local business leaders say tourism, Costco, Home Depot may play roles in city's future (60)
- Islamic symbol in mosaic — what is all the fuss? (49)
- Writer comments on Neely column (42)
- The Home Depot hopes to join Costco at Reynolds Ranch (41)
- Many reject the politics of 'no' (34)
- Police: Train victim was a Lodi teen (32)
- We need to conduct respectful conversations (30)
ADVERTISEMENT
All citizens should have same freedom of expression
Tuesday, September 29, 2009 6:40 AM PDT
On Sept. 6, 1774, as our Founding Fathers were forming this new nation, they made their first official act "a call to pray."
They chose the Rev. Duche to offer a prayer. As he concluded his prayer, he spoke these words, "All this we ask in the name and through the merits of Jesus Christ, thy son and our Savior, amen."
On July 9, 1776, the day following the public reading of the Declaration of Independence and the ringing of the "Liberty Bell," Congress resolved to appoint the Rev. Duche to be the Chaplain of Congress and offer prayers every morning at 9 a.m.
Eleven years later on June 28, 1787, while Congress was at a stalemate debating the final draft of the Constitution, Benjamin Franklin recognized that without Divine Intervention there would be no Constitution, and proposed that they open every session with prayer before they proceed with any business. For the last 221 years, that Constitution conceived through prayer has served us well. Our Constitution has stood the test of time.
However, although our Founding Fathers were largely orthodox Christians, it is clear in their writings that they believed all citizens should have the same freedom to express themselves in the public arena. The Christian community today supports that statement.
The final decision that the Council makes on Wednesday night, regarding invocations at council meetings, cannot be made out of concern of offending someone simply because they don't want Christians to pray in Jesus' name, but rather what is in the best interest of the council and of all the citizens of our city.
Some questions that need to be answered that night are the following:
1. Does the final decision honor God?
2. Does the final decision uphold the Constitution?
3. Does the final decision give everyone a level playing field?
4. Does the final decision censor anyone's freedom of speech?
5. Does the final decision treat all people fairly and equally?
The decision that would meet that criteria is to allow uncensored prayer, and allow other faiths the same freedom of speech.
Ken Owen
Director
Christian Community Concerns
Search for Ads 
Today’s Print Ads 
RSS Feeds
Reader Feedback
Lodian wrote on Oct 6, 2009 1:17 PM:
"Klingenschmitt Gets All Huffy"
October 2, 2009
http://scienceblogs.com/dispatches/2009/10/klingenschmitt_gets_all_huffy.php
... "
Brian wrote on Oct 6, 2009 8:39 AM:
Brian wrote on Oct 6, 2009 8:37 AM:
because he feels Christian Fudamentalism
is morally equivalent to Islamic Fudamentalism. Hmmm. sounds like Leonard. "
Brian wrote on Oct 6, 2009 8:30 AM:
And all Americans should have the freedom from hearing a prayer at a cc meeting from every religion under the sun. This is ridiculous. The cc is to do city business. This is not something that they should be spending their time and our money on, especially these days. "
And they don't Lodian. It's the Freedom From Religion Foundation that wants people to have freedom FROM religion.
The Constitution grants us freedom OF religion. if this foundation were to slither away, the CC could just get back to business, especially these days.
And we can thank this foundation for blowing these little invocations out of proportion it has resulted in such an inordinate time spent on this and and inordinate amount of legal fees that the City of Lodi has incurred. "
Brian wrote on Oct 6, 2009 8:20 AM:
" Brian wrote "Wrong Bob. Unlike you, he doesn't come back with the usual jibberish"
LOL! Ya sure. "
-The usual jibberish from Lodian. "
Robb wrote on Oct 5, 2009 3:57 PM:
I teach my children to think for themselves, and that the world we live in is far from fair.....
Get with the program here.... "
Lodian wrote on Oct 4, 2009 10:06 PM:
And all Americans should have the freedom from hearing a prayer at a cc meeting from every religion under the sun. This is ridiculous. The cc is to do city business. This is not something that they should be spending their time and our money on, especially these days. "
Lodian wrote on Oct 4, 2009 10:03 PM:
So he would have you believe. :-) "
Lodian wrote on Oct 4, 2009 10:02 PM:
LOL! Ya sure. "
Lodian wrote on Oct 4, 2009 10:00 PM:
Jerome's entire opinion (on Sep 29, 2009 7:06 PM) was based on inaccurate information. Instead of having the character to retract his comments made based on those inaccuracies he states that his opinion still stands. What opinion? Where's the integrity? There is no opinion since it's based on faux information. But, again, I'm not surprised. "
Brian wrote on Oct 4, 2009 6:32 PM:
I can see (Your Son) the apple doesn't fall too far from the tree. :) "
Brian wrote on Oct 4, 2009 6:28 PM:
Mr Dockter, G*d himself says quite clearly in the Torah that those who worship false idols will be cast out. Surely, even you would not question the authority of G*d? "
-I don't. Which makes my point all that much clearer that this Foundation has no authority to dictate to anyone that
they can't pray in a cc meeting. Some things should be left in God's hands. And with this, obviously the Supreme Court of this country has no intentions on denying invocations in government buildings. "
Ivan Dixon wrote on Oct 4, 2009 5:46 PM:
It seems to me that, since it is Lodian's opinion that Jerome's comment was based on a lie, it is HER opinion
that HIS standing opinion is invalid. "
Son, the old saw may be that opinions are like "@rtich0kes", everyone has one, but I think you may prove that some people in fact have three, four or even five. "
Ivan Dixon wrote on Oct 4, 2009 5:35 PM:
Leonard wrote on Oct 4, 2009 5:33 PM:
-Since it is the faith that people have that their God's are not false and no human can prove that they are not false, no human can determine what people can and cannot have a venue
Mr Dockter, G*d himself says quite clearly in the Torah that those who worship false idols will be cast out. Surely, even you would not question the authority of G*d? "
Brian wrote on Oct 4, 2009 9:52 AM:
" Ran, I've never been an atheist for even one moment of my life and still, I don't want my City Council wasting time and resources providing other people with a venue in which to pray to their false gods and idols. "
-Since it is the faith that people have that their God's are not false and no human can prove that they are not false, no human can determine what people can and cannot have a venue. "
Brian wrote on Oct 4, 2009 9:43 AM:
" Jerry's been "away" for a few days, so perhaps his fact-checking skills have eroded. "
-Wrong Bob. Unlike you, he doesn't come back with the usual jibberish. "
Brian wrote on Oct 4, 2009 9:27 AM:
deserve much more merit than Lodian's. "
Brian wrote on Oct 4, 2009 9:22 AM:
" Jerome R. Kinderman wrote "For anyone who questions why Lodi was chosen for this case, the answer is quite simple: the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeal"
Bob wrote "...we live within the 9th circuit court's jurisdiction there JRK"
Jerome R. Kinderman wrote "...the 5th Circuit was from my memories... I confused it with the 9th Circuit Court of Appeal. However, with that correction made, the rest of my opinion stands."
---------
Since Jerome's entire comment was based on a lie his standing opinion is invalid. "
It seems to me that, since it is Lodian's opinion that Jerome's comment was based on a lie, it is HER opinion
that HIS standing opinion is invalid. "
jeff wrote on Sep 30, 2009 1:00 PM:
wtf wrote on Sep 30, 2009 9:31 AM:
How about these, then?
World Union of Deists site:
http://www.deism.com/
Link from Washington State University:
http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/GLOSSARY/DEISM.HTM
This article on the William and Mary University website:
Founding Fathers were primarily Deists, Holmes says
After more than 40 years of religious study, David Holmes says the dominant lesson of his research is that each of us, far more than we know, is the product of our religious background and training.
The religious scholar...spoke recently about his latest work, Faith of the Founding Fathers, at the Williamsburg Regional Library.
Rest of article:
http://web.wm.edu/news/archive/index.php?id=6083
And for those who don't know, William & Mary University is about one of the best places for this type of research since it is the second oldest university in the U.S.
http://www.wm.edu/about/?svr=web "
alf wrote on Sep 29, 2009 11:48 PM:
Lodian wrote on Sep 29, 2009 11:17 PM:
Bob wrote "...we live within the 9th circuit court's jurisdiction there JRK"
Jerome R. Kinderman wrote "...the 5th Circuit was from my memories... I confused it with the 9th Circuit Court of Appeal. However, with that correction made, the rest of my opinion stands."
---------
Since Jerome's entire comment was based on a lie his standing opinion is invalid. "
Jerome R. Kinderman wrote on Sep 29, 2009 9:37 PM:
Bob Hussein Loblaw wrote on Sep 29, 2009 9:04 PM:
Bob Hussein Loblaw wrote on Sep 29, 2009 9:02 PM:
Fortunately, we live within the 9th circuit court's jurisdiction there JRK. "
dogs4you wrote on Sep 29, 2009 7:48 PM:
Leonard wrote on Sep 29, 2009 7:22 PM:
And we all assumed that Jerry Kimono had gotten himself banned for life.
Apparently, they just let him off with a couple of days suspension. "
Jerome R. Kinderman wrote on Sep 29, 2009 7:06 PM:
No matter how this plays out in the courts, it will be appealed and it will ultimately find its way to those very liberal judges in San Francisco. They in turn will vote in whatever direction is necessary to eradicate any form of faith-based expression from the American landscape. This will lead the matter straight to the U.S. Supreme Court.
As that court is currently assembled, the basis for the Fifth Circuit's decision cannot prevail. However, given the amount of time it will take to get to that point is important. The hope is that at least one conservative-leaning justice might retire or otherwise no longer be a member of the Court. It will be up to President Obama's choice to cast the deciding vote - and there's no doubt in the universe how that would result.
Yes, it's somewhat risky considering that aside from Justice Ginsburg, there haven't been too many indications that an opening on the High Court is imminent; unless someone knows something that we don't. "
LodiFreeThinker wrote on Sep 29, 2009 4:25 PM:
There are many people who agree that the council chambers are not the place for religion. "
Lodian wrote on Sep 29, 2009 4:16 PM:
MEP wrote on Sep 29, 2009 4:01 PM:
HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!! This is a City Council meeting we're talking about. Not a flipin' religulous ceremony! God does not give a care about the rising cost of garbage pickup in Lodi. Stop bothering him. And don't forget about the time difference it's very late in heaven. "
davidd wrote on Sep 29, 2009 3:12 PM:
1. Does the final decision honor God?
The Moment of Silence does, for *all* faiths, not just the one faith represented that evening in prayer.
2. Does the final decision uphold the Constitution?
Most certainly. No one has ever been sued for holding a Moment of Silence.
3. Does the final decision give everyone a level playing field?
Considerably, the most level playing field is achieved where everyone does their own thing. All religions can be represented at the same time, and no one is offended.
4. Does the final decision censor anyone's freedom of speech?
Anyone who wishes to do so can utilize their free speech prior to the council meeting should they choose.
5. Does the final decision treat all people fairly and equally?
Above all other options, yes.
Support tolerance by visiting www.LodiUnited.org and joining us at our rally Wednesday evening. "
wtf wrote on Sep 29, 2009 2:52 PM:
wtf wrote on Sep 29, 2009 2:52 PM:
I have just done a search through the Declaration of Independence, the U.S. Constitution and the Amendments to the U.S. Constitution and have not found a single reference to Jesus...or even to God, for that matter.
Yes, the Declaration has the phrase "...nature's God" in it; but this in no way indicates "GOD" ;) Further in the Declaration is the term "Creator"...but, again, this is not "GOD"
There is a reason for this. Though many say our Founding Fathers were Christians, my research indicates that the majority were what are called "Rational Deists"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism "
alf wrote on Sep 29, 2009 1:46 PM:
dogs4you wrote on Sep 29, 2009 11:54 AM:
Ivan Dixon wrote on Sep 29, 2009 11:04 AM:
In allowing prayers to Jesus at City Council meetings, the Council is threatening the spiritual well being of all the community, not just the ones participating directly in the idolatry. "
Ivan Dixon wrote on Sep 29, 2009 10:58 AM:
rantraves wrote on Sep 29, 2009 8:36 AM:
t jefferson wrote on Sep 29, 2009 6:36 AM:
until the government keeps out of other peoples gods, then this will continue to happen. People should be able to live how they want where they want. Since the govt has replaced christian values with liberal values and "removed god" from the government, thing have gotten decidely worse in this country. Look at the welfare roles, look at the unwed single mothers, step in a school sometime. I am appalled at what happens in our schools. Childern are fed, houses, clothed and supplied for 9 hrs a day all at tax payer expense. Where is the self reliance and individual responsibility. Oh that's right it was removed with god. What is sad is I am not a religious person so I am not talking about God with a big G, I am talking about the core values this country was founded upon. They have been skewered, killed and thrown out the door. "
jeff wrote on Sep 29, 2009 6:17 AM:
Comments on this story are now closed.