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Conservative Lutherans see gay pastors differently; many 'saddened' by vote
Lutheran churches differ greatly on social values like homosexuality. Some welcome the idea of their church blessing gay relationships and allowing gays to become pastors and deacons. Here are some local churches that buck the idea of homosexuality:
Emanuel Lutheran Church, Lodi: Emanuel is affiliated with Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, the largest Lutheran organization in the world. The churchwide assembly will now allow gay pastors and deacons.
However, Emanuel members aren't too happy about it.
"Emanuel is very conservative in theology, as am I," Emanuel Pastor Chris Townsend said. "There are no errors in Scripture."
Townsend said he believes the Bible reads literally, including the fact that God doesn't believe homosexuality is normal. He also said that religious beliefs should not be updated to reflect 21st-century values.
Church council president Alice Reimche said the council will address the ELCA's actions on Sept. 8. The council may make a policy statement at that time.
Reimche said she doesn't want to make any personal comments that could influence the council's thinking, but she placed the following statement in the church bulletin on Sunday: "This is one of most important issues ever to come before this congregation in its 89-year history. I ask everyone to seek God's guidance as we deliberate and appropriately act regarding this matter."
Shepherd of the Valley Lutheran Church, Galt: Pastor Mary Sanders said the ELCA's actions didn't go over well.
"While there are a couple of notable exceptions within my parish, the initial overall mood over the decision made by the churchwide assembly tends to be one of disapproval and sadness, as well as some confusion," Sanders said in an e-mail. "Several people raised valid questions about what this means in terms of consistency of Scriptural interpretation.
"However, there is not a movement towards making any sudden decisions over this; rather we have committed to continued prayer, conversation, Bible study and discernment over these issues, at least for the near future," Sanders said.
Shepherd of the Valley is also an ELCA church.
St. Peter Lutheran Church, Lodi: St. Peter is affiliated with the conservative Missouri Synod and was not involved in any loosening of restrictions against gays.
A few members of his congregation said they were approached by people who thought St. Peter, with its Lutheran name, was part of the movement to allow gays to become pastors and deacons.
St. Peter's Pastor John Kah said the issue boils down to just what the Bible is and means.
"Is the Bible literature than man devised and inserted into history, or is it God-inspired?" Kah said rhetorically. "Is it suggesting that God couldn't handle the events of time, that He is locked in time, that He is not all-knowing, that He is a product of human invention?"
Kah said he doesn't want to demean "my ELCA brothers and sisters," but hew said the ELCA has changed over the past 30 to 40 years. He described the ELCA as a "sad Christian movement." Dr. Gerald B. Kieschnick, president of The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod, said in a written statement: "Doctrinal decisions adopted already in 2001 led the (Missouri Synod), in sincere humility and love, to declare that we could no longer consider the ELCA 'to be an orthodox Lutheran church body.'
"Sadly, the decisions to ignore biblical teaching on human sexuality have reinforced that conclusion," Kieschnick said. "We respect the desire to follow conscience in moral decision making, but conscience may not overrule the Word of God."
Kah said an ELCA resolution to respect differences of opinion is simply an attempt to avoid a split with the church.
"It's like telling your wife, 'I won't be faithful to you, but don't let that affect our relationship,'" Kah said.
Contact reporter Ross Farrow at rossf@lodinews.com.
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Lodian wrote on Sep 9, 2009 11:42 PM:
dogbark wrote on Sep 9, 2009 11:08 PM:
I don't suppose you have any divorced and remarried folks in you congregation? How about at the pulpit? "
Lodian wrote on Sep 8, 2009 11:39 PM:
voter wrote on Sep 8, 2009 5:35 PM:
Lodian wrote on Sep 8, 2009 11:43 AM:
Lodian wrote on Sep 7, 2009 7:28 PM:
Robb wrote on Sep 7, 2009 7:11 PM:
Lodian wrote on Sep 7, 2009 5:25 PM:
Brian: There are many other religions around the world that believe all sorts of things. Do you live by all of them and all that they believe in as well? How do you accomplish this in your daily life? And I wonder what your American wife (I'm guessing she's an American) has to say about it. "
Lodian wrote on Sep 7, 2009 4:19 PM:
splinter wrote on Sep 7, 2009 1:25 PM:
" Ah, Billy the moral relitivist.
Even if there wasn't moral codes and religon I would still have a hard time mustering up the will to want to have my backside split in half by another man's organ or visa versa. "
That was graphic. "
Leonard wrote on Sep 7, 2009 11:15 AM:
And what type of publishing company would want to publish gay erotica? Perhaps a company that caters to flamers?
As opposed to closet cases?
Most of the big houses publish gay erotica under one imprint or another. Gays, in general, are an rather affluent market. "
Brian wrote on Sep 7, 2009 9:25 AM:
What genre is that? You're only conclusion that I may not be straight is because I plucked something out of the air that makes me seem like I'm gay.
And what type of publishing company would want to publish gay erotica? Perhaps a company that caters to flamers? "
Leonard wrote on Sep 7, 2009 8:43 AM:
Leonard wrote on Sep 7, 2009 8:42 AM:
-I wouldn't know anything about gay erotica Leonard. It's not my thing.
Is there something you're not telling
us about you?
That I am literate?
I think I already mentioned that.
Over the years, my company has worked with all sorts of publishers. We stopped handling that sort of thing years ago, it is just too hard to find printers.
Still, I have worked with enough printer's proofs to recognize your genre, even when it is executed on a 7th grade level. "
Brian wrote on Sep 7, 2009 8:24 AM:
One of the most amusing aspects of Brian's self hating homophobia is the way that his descriptions of men and of sex acts always read like they were copied out of a poorly written work of gay erotica.
-I wouldn't know anything about gay erotica Leonard. It's not my thing.
Is there something you're not telling
us about you? "
Brian wrote on Sep 7, 2009 8:16 AM:
A vivid description, to be sure, but hardly one that a straight man would use.
-The Word of Leonard.
How he could know that there isn't a straight man out there who would ever describe this act this way is beyond me.
And of course he is sure all the men in prison who are straight that may be forced to do these acts would never speak of it in this way. No Leonard, I've never been in prison. "
Leonard wrote on Sep 7, 2009 6:03 AM:
my backside split in half by another man's organ
A vivid description, to be sure, but hardly one that a straight man would use.
One of the most amusing aspects of Brian's self hating homophobia is the way that his descriptions of men and of sex acts always read like they were copied out of a poorly written work of gay erotica. "
Brian wrote on Sep 7, 2009 3:11 AM:
What type of man does it take to muster up the will to do what I just described
in the last post? "
Brian wrote on Sep 7, 2009 3:08 AM:
Even if there wasn't moral codes and religon I would still have a hard time mustering up the will to want to have my backside split in half by another man's organ or visa versa. "
Billy Rubin wrote on Sep 6, 2009 9:59 AM:
Brian wrote on Sep 6, 2009 9:39 AM:
We're not talking about 5 other religions, Brian. We're talking about you and what you believe. Can you stay focused? "
-I believe that the 5 major religons in the world say that homosexuality is a sin. This is enough evidence for me to draw a conclusion that homosexuality is a sin. Unlike you, it's not about a FEELING. That's the problem with you liberals, you have these FEELINGS that
certain things aren't wrong or sinful to justify your positions and you get irritated when anyone has the nerve to call you on them. "
Brian wrote on Sep 6, 2009 9:28 AM:
Brian wrote on Sep 6, 2009 8:56 AM:
Brian wrote on Sep 6, 2009 8:49 AM:
Brian: Homosexuality is not a sin.
-Lodian,
Since you insist on being intellectually dishonest about what the
scriptures say, I'm going to have to bow out of this discussion with you.
I have better things to do with my time than talk to someone who makes lying a habit to advance their position. See you around.
Alot of us find it fun, entertaining, and informative here on these bloggs.
But you have made this particular discussion impossible to move forward
with your blatant lies and intellectual dishonesty. It has to be hard are your friends and family to have to be exposed to a person like you who is so unstable that they make lying so habitual. "
Lodian wrote on Sep 5, 2009 10:16 PM:
Lodian wrote on Sep 5, 2009 10:07 PM:
Brian: I'm going on fact with you here. You cuss, drink in excess and you said that you dream about sexual relations with men. In your book, aren't these sins? Yet you vehemently continue to point the finger and viscously condemn gay people with all the hate you can muster on a message board at every chance you get. Yes, Brian, it sure looks to me like you are cherry picking through the Bible. Look in the mirror. "
Lodian wrote on Sep 5, 2009 9:59 PM:
Lodian wrote on Sep 5, 2009 9:57 PM:
" Lodian's got quite a job ahead of her trying to refute the 5 major religon's (in the world) belief that homosexuality is a sin. "
We're not talking about 5 other religions, Brian. We're talking about you and what you believe. Can you stay focused? "
Lodian wrote on Sep 5, 2009 9:56 PM:
"It's quite clear why I consider gay marriage immoral given how homosexuality is a sin."
*sigh*
Brian: Homosexuality is not a sin. And if you go by your interpretation of the Old Testament that it is a sin then do you also go by all scripture in the Old Testament? You seem to just pluck out the verse that you think tells you homosexuality is a sin and run "in hate" with it. AGAIN, I ask, do you also feel that lesbians are sinners if they make a life with a same sex partner? If so, where do you base this belief?
Stop going in circles, Brian, and give us all a straight answer. "
Leonard wrote on Sep 5, 2009 8:55 PM:
Leonard wrote on Sep 5, 2009 8:49 PM:
" It's quite clear why I consider gay marriage immoral given how homosexuality is a sin.
Poor self esteem? "
Brian wrote on Sep 5, 2009 8:15 PM:
Brian wrote on Sep 5, 2009 8:07 PM:
Brian wrote on Sep 5, 2009 7:59 PM:
And here we are again. Why do you think gay marriage is immoral? And since you have said that you believe gay marriage is immoral (coming from the Bible you say) and homosexuality is a sin, then explain to us why this is such a huge issue, but you ignore other parts of the Bible? "
-I might just have to ignore other parts of the Bible that say homosexuality is not a sin if this was the case. So if you could find a verse where the Bible contradicts itself on homosexuality then I'd be happy to refute my belief that God considers homosexuality a sin. And I'd like to know, where you got the idea
that the rest of the religons in this world don't consider homosexuality a sin? And what verses you can find in their Bibles that contradict what they say about homosexuality. "
Brian wrote on Sep 5, 2009 7:14 PM:
Why do you think gay marriage is immoral?
DUHHH LODIAN!!!!!
The prevailing definition of gay marriage as being immoral is because
having sex with the same sex is immoral. It sticks out like a sore thumb. Sorry that is such an inconvenient truth for you. "
Brian wrote on Sep 5, 2009 7:08 PM:
" Brian/dyan: You believe in cherry picking through the Bible. This is the truth and you should be ashamed. Sorry to burden you with such an inconvenient truth, Brian/dyan. "
-You assume too much Lodian. It's gotta be tough on your family having to be exposed to a person who assumes so many awful things about people she knows very little about. I will pray that they have patience with such a mental case like you. "
Lodian wrote on Sep 5, 2009 6:39 PM:
Lodian wrote on Sep 5, 2009 6:36 PM:
Lodian wrote on Sep 5, 2009 6:35 PM:
Lodian wrote on Sep 5, 2009 6:33 PM:
with a moral sexual preference?"
And here we are again. Why do you think gay marriage is immoral? And since you have said that you believe gay marriage is immoral (coming from the Bible you say) and homosexuality is a sin, then explain to us why this is such a huge issue, but you ignore other parts of the Bible? "
Lodian wrote on Sep 5, 2009 6:29 PM:
Gay people are not trying to deny anyone's rights. Heterosexual couples will still have the same rights whether gays marry or not. Gay marriage would not negatively impact other marriages whatsoever. "
Brian wrote on Sep 5, 2009 5:49 PM:
Brian wrote on Sep 5, 2009 5:47 PM:
What does this have to do with gay marriage and you demeaning gay people by calling them sinners for wanting to be married like other Americans?
-Lodian,
Would you rather her be a radical Islamist and demean all people who they equate as infidels and command them to convert to islam or be killed? And Lodian, is not the demands of gay people to have the same marriage rights as heterosexuals demeaning to the heterosexuals? Do this not equate to a redefinition of marriage that allows an immoral sexual preferance to be equal
with a moral sexual preference? "
Brian wrote on Sep 5, 2009 5:38 PM:
" dyan wrote "Islamic fundamentalists"... Brian always talks about this too.
-Hmm,
One of the biggest threats to western civilization. Sorry to burden you with such an inconvenient truth, Lodian.
Oh Leonard,
Keep on advancing your lie that I am posting under two idendities. I 've got nothing to hide. You've got to grow up and face the reality
that you can't pose as a child anymore given those grey hairs of yours are becoming more evident than ever before. "
Lodian wrote on Sep 5, 2009 5:09 PM:
Lodian wrote on Sep 5, 2009 5:09 PM:
" That's the problem. You don't "see." Islamic fundamentalists are more than willing to die for what they believe."
What does this have to do with gay marriage and you demeaning gay people by calling them sinners for wanting to be married like other Americans? Stop the diversion, dyan, and answer the questions that stem from your hateful comments. Either stand by your statements or look the fool, again. Can't you stick with this, dyan? "
Lodian wrote on Sep 5, 2009 5:02 PM:
Lodian wrote on Sep 5, 2009 5:02 PM:
Leonard wrote on Sep 5, 2009 3:45 PM:
Leonard wrote on Sep 5, 2009 3:44 PM:
" That's the problem. You don't "see." Islamic fundamentalists are more than willing to die for what they believe.
Are you willing to die for what you believe about homosexuality?
Am I willing to die for freedom, liberty and equality?
Absolutely.
I suppose the other side of the question is the following.
Are you willing to kill to keep gays as second class citizens? "
dyan wrote on Sep 5, 2009 3:01 PM:
That's for the theologians. "
dyan wrote on Sep 5, 2009 2:59 PM:
Lodian wrote on Sep 5, 2009 2:32 PM:
" Now you answer the question: Are you willing to die for what you believe about homosexuality? "
Are you? "
Lodian wrote on Sep 5, 2009 2:31 PM:
Oh, and don't think I forgot about that old original question that you haven't answered yet.
Why do you vehemently state that homosexuality is a sin while simply passing on by the other words in the Bible? If you passionately address one part then why not passionately address the other parts/words of the Bible?
Also, I know I may be asking a lot of you here, but please tell me if you believe lesbians to be sinners as well as homosexual men for having same sex partners in life. The Bible doesn't address lesbians, so what's the scoop? "
dyan wrote on Sep 5, 2009 2:02 PM:
dyan wrote on Sep 5, 2009 1:58 PM:
Lodian wrote on Sep 5, 2009 1:39 PM:
" It sort of tells you who will eventually come out on top of this game -doesn't it? "
Can you answer the question? "
Lodian wrote on Sep 5, 2009 1:39 PM:
Lodian wrote on Sep 5, 2009 1:38 PM:
" That's the problem. You don't "see." Islamic fundamentalists are more than willing to die for what they believe.
Are you willing to die for what you believe about homosexuality? "
That doesn't answer the question. "
Lodian wrote on Sep 5, 2009 1:37 PM:
Oh, I have an "idea", I'm going to be a homosexual today! Really?
Homosexuality is not an "idea". "
dyan wrote on Sep 5, 2009 1:37 PM:
dyan wrote on Sep 5, 2009 1:35 PM:
Are you willing to die for what you believe about homosexuality? "
Lodian wrote on Sep 5, 2009 1:30 PM:
Then stop telling us all about your homosexual dreams, Brian. Then you go off ranting like a complete homophobe. Your dilemma is clear to most here, except for you. "
Lodian wrote on Sep 5, 2009 1:24 PM:
Brian wrote on Sep 5, 2009 12:48 PM:
The problem is when the gay lobby wants to tear down an entire culture and rebuild it in their image, including marriage, schools and churches.
-This type of collateral damage is irrelevant to the gay lobby. Their narcisism has no boundries. "
Brian wrote on Sep 5, 2009 11:55 AM:
" Brian, that was SARCASM. You're a little slow on the uptake. "
-So we can conclude that voter hates fundamentalists for not only their ideology but because they are human too.
And I thought liberal's philosophy was to love thy fellow bretheren no matter what. "
dyan wrote on Sep 5, 2009 11:53 AM:
Brian wrote on Sep 5, 2009 11:47 AM:
" Brian: We all knew already that you love homosexuals. You sharing your dreams with us made that obvious. And your hate for homosexuality is just more self-loathing. "
-See what I mean. Soooooo predictable. "
Lodian wrote on Sep 5, 2009 11:32 AM:
dyan wrote on Sep 5, 2009 10:59 AM:
dyan wrote on Sep 5, 2009 10:54 AM:
dyan wrote on Sep 5, 2009 10:52 AM:
Leonard wrote on Sep 5, 2009 10:39 AM:
I would say comparing one loose cannon with an entire global movement of murderers is a little naive - wouldn't you agree Lenny?
The list of fundamentalist Christian terrorist attacks here in the States is lengthy. You could start with the assassination of David Gunn, the assassinations of John Britton and James Barrett, the assassination of John Slepian, the assassination of George Tiller, the bombings of gay bars in Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi and Florida, the Olympics bombings, the bombing of abortion clinics in Sacramento.....
The list goes on and on and on. "
Leonard wrote on Sep 5, 2009 10:30 AM:
-And I love homosexuals. I just hate the homosexuality.
End the self hate and accept yourself the way you are Brian. Your life will improve. "
Leonard wrote on Sep 5, 2009 10:29 AM:
Given his recent revelations, I find the fact that Brian likes to post in drag just a wee bit amusing.
:) "
Lodian wrote on Sep 5, 2009 10:25 AM:
Lodian wrote on Sep 5, 2009 10:23 AM:
dyan wrote on Sep 5, 2009 10:04 AM:
voter wrote on Sep 5, 2009 10:01 AM:
dyan wrote on Sep 5, 2009 9:43 AM:
Brian wrote on Sep 5, 2009 8:59 AM:
" dyan, I love the fundamentalists. I just hate the fundamentalism. "
-And I love homosexuals. I just hate the homosexuality.
Let's see how voter and lodian can distort this, "
Brian wrote on Sep 5, 2009 8:55 AM:
Obstacles in Liberating Islam
Dyan,
this article is an example of why we need to understand Sharia Law and the affects it is already having in the U.S.
Here's a clip:
As an Arab woman who suffered for three decades living under Islamic Sharia, it is clear to me that Islam’s political ideology and Sharia must be fought relentlessly by Western civilization to prevent its application in a free society.
However, I have found myself fighting on two fronts. The first front is against Islamists, a daunting fight indeed. But the other front is one shaped by too many uninformed individuals who like to view themselves as open minded “progressives”. They seem to somehow claim superiority on compassion, on peace, on open-mindedness and on appreciation of other cultures. Regarding themselves as tolerant, free thinking individuals, they avoid questioning Muslims’ harmful intentions. They restrict themselves to self-criticism, and make politically-correct excuses for Islamism. Regrettably, they show their indisputable acceptance of ‘others’ at the expense of the public’s responsibility to learn the truth about Islam’s detrimental tenets. "
dyan wrote on Sep 5, 2009 8:50 AM:
voter wrote on Sep 5, 2009 8:34 AM:
dyan wrote on Sep 5, 2009 7:57 AM:
dyan wrote on Sep 5, 2009 7:47 AM:
Man does not change. Only his technology changes. "
dyan wrote on Sep 5, 2009 7:44 AM:
voter wrote on Sep 5, 2009 7:07 AM:
Lodian wrote on Sep 5, 2009 1:03 AM:
dogbark wrote on Sep 4, 2009 11:12 PM:
But we sure jump over that one in this 21st century values world don't we? "
Leonard wrote on Sep 4, 2009 8:37 PM:
the fundamentalists want to kill them for teaching their kids about two gay penguins
Kind of like that guy who shot up that Unitarian Church in Tennessee? Fundamentalists are the same the world over, they just come in different flavors. "
dyan wrote on Sep 4, 2009 8:05 PM:
Billy Rubin wrote on Sep 4, 2009 6:48 PM:
Then when he had egg all over his face he had to go change into his clown suit and post as bryan a few times. "
Lodian wrote on Sep 4, 2009 5:38 PM:
Leonard wrote on Sep 4, 2009 5:04 PM:
" I see that no one has even made an attempt to justify their bigotry with any kind rational argument.
The enemy has fled and we hold the field.
Victory is ours, for what its worth. "
Lodian wrote on Sep 4, 2009 4:38 PM:
Lodian wrote on Sep 4, 2009 4:37 PM:
voter wrote on Sep 4, 2009 4:21 PM:
Lodian wrote on Sep 4, 2009 2:04 PM:
Leonard wrote on Sep 4, 2009 1:36 PM:
" Do you mean tolerance, respect and freedom for conservative Christians?
Absolutely, assuming that they are willing to respond in kind. "
dyan wrote on Sep 4, 2009 1:25 PM:
dyan wrote on Sep 4, 2009 1:22 PM:
Leonard wrote on Sep 4, 2009 1:05 PM:
One has been driven away by a scriptural question he won't answer.
One has been revealed to be, at the very minimum, a self hating bisexual.
The third is now comparing itself to God.
Well folks, it looks like we can call this debate for the side of tolerance, respect and freedom. "
Leonard wrote on Sep 4, 2009 12:55 PM:
" When Lenny goes to Heaven, he will judge God.
Are you actually comparing yourself to God?
I don't suppose the word "hubris" means anything to you, does it? "
Lodian wrote on Sep 4, 2009 12:49 PM:
dyan wrote on Sep 4, 2009 11:22 AM:
dyan wrote on Sep 4, 2009 11:20 AM:
Lodian wrote on Sep 4, 2009 11:08 AM:
Brian: Okay, so where did Jesus tell you that homosexuality is a sin and that homosexuals need to repent and live as a heterosexual? Also, what words "unspoken" by God are you referring to exactly? "
Lodian wrote on Sep 4, 2009 11:04 AM:
Lodian wrote on Sep 4, 2009 11:02 AM:
" It seems to me that since God thought homosexuality was a abomination that's enough for me."
You have not proven this, Brian. And if you believe this statement then why don't you live your life by ALL that is in the Bible? "
Lodian wrote on Sep 4, 2009 11:01 AM:
Brian: Do you have a passion to jump on every well-built person you find attractive? If not, then why would you think a gay person feels that way? Just because they're gay? Again, Brian, you are ignorant about people and sexual orientation. "
Leonard wrote on Sep 4, 2009 9:34 AM:
dyan wrote on Sep 4, 2009 9:30 AM:
Leonard wrote on Sep 4, 2009 9:29 AM:
" Can we also say that Leonard has "conservaphobia" or is he just being what Van Jones described Republicans?
Bryan, your sentence does not make any sense. "
Leonard wrote on Sep 4, 2009 9:28 AM:
" Why is it that everytime someone disagrees with someone else's lifestyle it is called "hateful"?
Jonesey, what the poster in question said was that "the thought" of homosexual men (a thought it now seems he has quite a lot) made him sick.
How is that not a hateful statement? "
jonsey wrote on Sep 4, 2009 9:15 AM:
dyan wrote on Sep 4, 2009 9:13 AM:
Leonard wrote on Sep 4, 2009 8:52 AM:
While we might argue for hours about scripture and biology with a conservative like Cogito, with individuals like Brian, it always quickly comes back to outwardly expressed rage and bile that is, in reality, just a smokescreen for his inward struggle with his own identity and self doubt.
One can only hope that, eventually, Brian will come to love himself the way he is, not the way he might wish to be. Until that day, meaningful conversation is more or less a lost cause. "
Leonard wrote on Sep 4, 2009 8:22 AM:
" Leonard wrote on Sep 3, 2009 8:57 PM:
" They say that the worst homophobes are usually closeted homosexuals themselves. "
-This is a good example of a typical reaction from a liberal.
Perhaps, but it also happens to be the truth. You are, far and away, the most rabid homophobe on these fora and, BY YOUR OWN ADMISSION, you fantasize about having sex with other men.
Case closed! "
Brian wrote on Sep 4, 2009 8:14 AM:
Brian wrote on Sep 4, 2009 8:03 AM:
" And don't forget, Brian said he liked admiring well-built men, too.
Perfectly normal.
-I'd like to work out and get some muscle tone. That being said, it is normal to admire them. We really don't need to have a discussion about Billy's passion to bend over every well-built man he finds attractive, though. "
Brian wrote on Sep 4, 2009 7:53 AM:
" They say that the worst homophobes are usually closeted homosexuals themselves. "
-This is a good example of a typical reaction from a liberal. I now realize why I tend to gravitate towards convervative people. You just don't here this kind of rubbish amongst them. Nor are they likely to draw conclusions
of a person based on something written on a blogg when it's quite obvious they are just trying to humor liberals. I often find myself doing this as a result of their lack of ability to keep
the debate going without a bunch of childish antics. "
Leonard wrote on Sep 4, 2009 7:20 AM:
Yes, indeed. So explain why you believe half of that Leviticus verse (that homosexuality is an abomination) and discard the second half of the verse where God commands you to kill homosexuals? Like you said, if you throw out some of it, why bother believing in any of it?
I am also curious about this one Cog. Surely a man with your testicular fortitude is up to the challenge of this question. "
voter wrote on Sep 4, 2009 5:51 AM:
" Jenn, apparently you've missed the "God breathed" in doctrine pertaining to Biblical accuracy. If you throw out some of it, why bother believing any of it?"
Yes, indeed. So explain why you believe half of that Leviticus verse (that homosexuality is an abomination) and discard the second half of the verse where God commands you to kill homosexuals? Like you said, if you throw out some of it, why bother believing in any of it?
None of the fundamentalists will touch this question. It makes them squirm. Answering it would invalidate their dogma. "
Leonard wrote on Sep 3, 2009 8:57 PM:
Lodian wrote on Sep 3, 2009 7:40 PM:
"Lodian, one last thing. GO F%$# YOURSELF!"
Ah, classic Brian. "
Lodian wrote on Sep 3, 2009 7:39 PM:
Brian wrote on Jan 24, 2009 6:07 PM:
"I did have one glass of wine earlier. My wife and I drink in moderation. There are times while blogging I wish I was drunk given the ruubbish I have to read when you blogg. But I have self control."
And didn't Brian also say recently that he got sloshed for the first time in a very long time and was suffering a headache or something? Does this guy know which way is up? "
Lodian wrote on Sep 3, 2009 7:33 PM:
Lodian wrote on Sep 3, 2009 7:24 PM:
----------------------
voter wrote on Nov 17, 2008 8:09 PM:
"Brian, did you just admit that you have had some homosexual experiences? It sure sounds like that's what you're saying."
Brian wrote "No, never did. Fantasized about it? Once or twice. It's not that unusual to fantasize about this."
Lodian wrote "Of course it's not unusual Brian; IF YOU'RE GAY!"
Brian wrote on Nov 17, 2008 8:23 PM: "Lodian, It's not unusual for men or women to fantasize about being with the same sex. That's as far as it's ever gone with me, though" "
Brian wrote on Sep 3, 2009 7:14 PM:
Brian wrote on Sep 3, 2009 7:10 PM:
A blogg gone to the dogs by the likes of Leonard and his ilk. Good job Leonard, you can put a feather in your cap for once again bringing a perfectly good discussion down to the level of a juvenille masquerading as an adult. Now be a good little juvenille and go away so us adults can have a discussion about this letter that you so obviously want to make a mockery of. "
Brian wrote on Sep 3, 2009 7:04 PM:
You have spent a lot of time researching things I don't
recall saying. Like I said, whatever turns you on. Keeping your peanut gallery occupied with things like this
has become quite a passion of yours at other people's expense. Not that you care how many people consider your tangents childish. Are you at all capable of holding a conversation with someone without inserting condescending remarks? I have yet to regard you as anything more than a child picking his nose and flinging them at an unsupsecting classmate or teacher. "
Bob Hussein Loblaw wrote on Sep 3, 2009 6:56 PM:
Leave the Bryan, take the canolli. "
Billy Rubin wrote on Sep 3, 2009 6:23 PM:
Perfectly normal. "
Billy Rubin wrote on Sep 3, 2009 6:21 PM:
He's said only Christians are able to feel concern or compassion, non-believers are sub-human heathens. Christians are the only good people, everyone else is bad.
The only thing that remains is for him to call you a Nazi before we know the conversation has run completely over the cliff. "
voter wrote on Sep 3, 2009 5:48 PM:
voter wrote on Sep 3, 2009 5:47 PM:
Leonard wrote on Sep 3, 2009 5:44 PM:
Leonard wrote on Sep 3, 2009 5:41 PM:
Lodian, quoting an earlier post from Brian wrote on May 12 at 11:15 AM
Brian wrote..."Lodian,It's not unusual for men or women to fantasize about being with the same sex. That's as far as it's ever gone with me, though"
Brian responded on May 12, 2009 10:53 PM:
#3 It isn't unusual for people to fantasize about things they may never do. Sorry you have a problem with that.
At least I am honest.
The original can be found at the following link.
http://www.lodinews.com/articles/2009/05/11/opinion/letters/ltr_kinderman_090511.txt "
voter wrote on Sep 3, 2009 5:33 PM:
Leonard wrote on Sep 3, 2009 5:28 PM:
-I don't recall ever admitting I ever had fantasies about having sex with men, Leonard.
For a guy who doesn't drink, you sure do have a lot of black outs.
Does anyone have this classic post from the Dreaded Rear Admiral archived? I am sure I can eventually dig it up but it would save me some time and effort.
Lodian????
I think he was talking to you about it. "
Brian wrote on Sep 3, 2009 5:24 PM:
Brian wrote on Sep 3, 2009 5:22 PM:
What a pathetic defense. You're suggesting that only Christians support each other in times of crisis? That's absolute cr@p and you know it. You're pathetic.
-What a pathetic mindset one has to have to even suggest that Cogito is that arrogant to suggest that only Christians support eachother in times of crisis. Voter, You're a troublemaker.
Take a hike you creap!!!!!!! "
Brian wrote on Sep 3, 2009 5:17 PM:
I am sure that I am not the only one here who recalls Brian's earlier admissions about his fantasies of having sex with other men.
-I don't recall ever admitting I ever had fantasies about having sex with men, Leonard. I don't know where you want to take this conversation. This is yet another distraction you want to
advance on. What ever turns you on. "
voter wrote on Sep 3, 2009 4:00 PM:
voter wrote on Sep 3, 2009 12:49 PM:
" Voter, let me give you a little insight into the mind of a Christian."
What a pathetic defense. You're suggesting that only Christians support each other in times of crisis? That's absolute cr@p and you know it. You're pathetic.
Compassion for one of your own does not erase the hate spewed towards others. It does not excuse the lies. It does not excuse the double standard. Grow up. Think for yourself just once. "
dyan wrote on Sep 3, 2009 10:54 AM:
Except one time. And why? Because I believe this openly gay priest business is going to destroy us in the years to come.I believed that then. And I believe that now. "
dyan wrote on Sep 3, 2009 10:44 AM:
Leonard wrote on Sep 3, 2009 10:09 AM:
Freddo, maybe... "
dyan wrote on Sep 3, 2009 10:01 AM:
Cogito wrote on Sep 3, 2009 9:05 AM:
Leonard wrote on Sep 3, 2009 8:45 AM:
I've never fantasised that way.
I apologize if I have mischaracterized your homoerotic fantasies. Perhaps you can set the record straight (so to speak).
I am sure that I am not the only one here who recalls Brian's earlier admissions about his fantasies of having sex with other men. "
Brian wrote on Sep 3, 2009 8:14 AM:
" Cogito wrote on Sep 2, 2009 2:55 PM:
" Billy, my pastor was a virgin when he wed, and has never had a drink in his life. Not even one.
And Brian claims he is a light drinker. "
-I truly am a light drinker. With 2 brothers and several uncles having drinking problems I saw the writing on the wall a long time ago. I didn't even finish my first drink in weeks last night. I don't even find catching a light buzz fun anymore. "
Cogito wrote on Sep 3, 2009 7:56 AM:
Cogito wrote on Sep 3, 2009 7:53 AM:
Jenn H wrote on Sep 3, 2009 7:15 AM:
Jenn H wrote on Sep 3, 2009 7:13 AM:
voter wrote on Sep 3, 2009 6:45 AM:
" Voter, you love to call me a "bigot", but you can stop me when I'm lying. "
I can't stop you from lying--you don't have any other way to function when it comes to your faith based bigotry.
Based on your posts below, you believe that any church that does not follow the literal word of the Bible is "godless". Now you've made a joke out of the literal word of God because you are unable to address your lie. You haven't answered my question regarding the stonings that God mandates in that Leviticus verse, and you haven't answered any of Billy's questions either. I expect that you'll run and hide, make another joke, or start with the name calling, but you won't address the conflict between the literal word and the dogma of your church. To do so would be a threat to your faith. "
Leonard wrote on Sep 3, 2009 5:21 AM:
" Leonard, I've heard the word "magnificent" uttered more than once as I've walked away. I've received the "Pouch of the Month" award twice this year. In which you get your picture on the bulletin, a plumb parking spot, and a big bag of Kiwi fruits.
Cog, you b@stard! I literally just snarfed coffee all over my second best white oxford.
LOL!!! "
Cogito wrote on Sep 2, 2009 8:31 PM:
Leonard wrote on Sep 2, 2009 8:20 PM:
Voter, we have designated testicle checkers standing at the doors.
Chuckle.... gives new meaning to the term "Holy Rollers". "
Leonard wrote on Sep 2, 2009 8:17 PM:
" Billy, my pastor was a virgin when he wed, and has never had a drink in his life. Not even one.
And Brian claims he is a light drinker. "
Cogito wrote on Sep 2, 2009 7:04 PM:
Cogito wrote on Sep 2, 2009 7:03 PM:
Cogito wrote on Sep 2, 2009 7:00 PM:
Cogito wrote on Sep 2, 2009 6:59 PM:
Robb wrote on Sep 2, 2009 6:01 PM:
Yea.,.. I'm gonna listen to a man who "lives the word"... ok....psycho... "
Robb wrote on Sep 2, 2009 5:52 PM:
Billy Rubin wrote on Sep 2, 2009 5:15 PM:
Brian lives the perfect Bible Life.
All Bible, All the time. "
Billy Rubin wrote on Sep 2, 2009 5:14 PM:
Cogito said the guy lives the biblical life, so he does. "
Billy Rubin wrote on Sep 2, 2009 5:12 PM:
Do you watch? I know the deaths are supposed to be public, but I wondered if you watched. I might not. Nah, I'm sure I couldn't. The sounds, probably more than anything, are what would creep me out. Those wet-sounding thuds of the rocks smacking on living flesh.
Yeah, I'm sure I couldn't watch. But do you? "
voter wrote on Sep 2, 2009 5:07 PM:
So now tell us how you decide what verses you're going to cherry pick--maybe just the ones that support your bigotry, huh? "
Billy Rubin wrote on Sep 2, 2009 5:01 PM:
Isn't this the church on Ham Ln. south of Lodi Ave., Cog? I'm afraid I'd be caught at the door and used for the morning stoning, but it might be worth the risk just to see how the real biblical man preaches. I'm thinking lightening bolts and stuff crashing around while he's yelling, you know. Scary but exciting all at once. "
voter wrote on Sep 2, 2009 4:50 PM:
voter wrote on Sep 2, 2009 4:39 PM:
Lodian wrote on Sep 2, 2009 4:32 PM:
Uh, okay. That's weird. "
Lodian wrote on Sep 2, 2009 4:31 PM:
" Billy, my pastor was a virgin when he wed, and has never had a drink in his life. Not even one. "
These are not things you can know for sure. "
Lodian wrote on Sep 2, 2009 4:29 PM:
" Billy, would you attend a church where the pastor had their spouse, and the person they were cheating on them with, sitting in the front row every week? "
I'm sure it happens more than you think. They're just not telling anyone about it. Many gay people are not trying to get away with anything. They are telling you they are gay, and want to marry and go to church, when they could keep their homosexuality a secret just like other church members keep their secrets. "
rwayne wrote on Sep 2, 2009 4:29 PM:
There are those folks who have spent a lifetime studying the bible. I read Marcus Borg, John Shelby Spong, Burton Mack, Karen Armstrong and many others. I read and I decide if they make sense or if the more cautious person does. the point is, I make the choice. "
Lodian wrote on Sep 2, 2009 4:26 PM:
"No Billy, they're reserved for those who live their lives according to the Bible."
And are you taking their word for that, Cogito. "
Lodian wrote on Sep 2, 2009 4:25 PM:
rwayne wrote on Sep 2, 2009 4:23 PM:
Billy Rubin wrote on Sep 2, 2009 4:23 PM:
So does he live here in town? What does he eat? What does he wear? Does he conduct the stonings at the altar or out back?
And I was wondering, too, how did the whole virgin thing come up in conversation? He was bragging and just blurted it out or what? "
voter wrote on Sep 2, 2009 4:21 PM:
Answer the questions, starting with this one:
If your pastor believes that the Leviticus verse is God's Word, why hasn't he begun killing homosexuals? "
Cogito wrote on Sep 2, 2009 4:13 PM:
voter wrote on Sep 2, 2009 4:05 PM:
voter wrote on Sep 2, 2009 4:02 PM:
" Billy, would you attend a church where the pastor had their spouse, and the person they were cheating on them with, sitting in the front row every week? "
Cog, if your pastor has not ordered the stoning of these individuals, he is not living his life according to the Bible. Ideally, the congregation should probably conduct the stoning out in the parking lot, with the pastor hurling the first big rock. "
Cogito wrote on Sep 2, 2009 3:31 PM:
rwayne wrote on Sep 2, 2009 3:03 PM:
In over 40 years of biblical work I have finally concluded that the one who interprets the bible really is the voice of God for that person. I make the decision regarding who I will trust therefore, in reality, I am the ultimate authority about what the bible is saying, even though I may defer to a specific person or tradition. "
Cogito wrote on Sep 2, 2009 2:55 PM:
Billy Rubin wrote on Sep 2, 2009 2:21 PM:
Well, I'm sure glad Jerome set the standard with the ignorant or dishonest choice - because you're surely one or the other. "
Cogito wrote on Sep 2, 2009 2:15 PM:
Cogito wrote on Sep 2, 2009 1:17 PM:
Billy Rubin wrote on Sep 2, 2009 12:32 PM:
Cogito wrote on Sep 2, 2009 10:51 AM:
Cogito wrote on Sep 2, 2009 10:50 AM:
Lodian wrote on Sep 2, 2009 10:40 AM:
Fear and hate. "
Leonard wrote on Sep 2, 2009 10:12 AM:
Jesus Christ, HOWEVER, came to Earth to bring all of mankind a NEW COVENANT. In the course of the Gospels, Christ talks extensively on the subject of sin and yet NEVER does he mention the issue of homosexuality.
What Christ did say is that people should treat each other with love and respect and act without judging others. "
Lodian wrote on Sep 2, 2009 9:31 AM:
Leonard wrote "Why is it that these sorts of questions are never, ever answered?"
Yes, I agree and would enjoy a sincere response regarding these questions. "
Lodian wrote on Sep 2, 2009 9:29 AM:
Lodian wrote on Sep 2, 2009 9:22 AM:
Lodian wrote on Sep 2, 2009 8:56 AM:
Cogito wrote on Sep 2, 2009 8:31 AM:
Cogito wrote on Sep 2, 2009 8:29 AM:
Cogito wrote on Sep 2, 2009 8:22 AM:
oremus wrote on Sep 2, 2009 7:35 AM:
Jenn H wrote on Sep 2, 2009 7:23 AM:
Leonard wrote on Sep 2, 2009 5:30 AM:
Leonard wrote on Sep 2, 2009 5:29 AM:
" In leviticus 20:13 the bible clearly states "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death. Their blood will be on their own hands." I am a member at st. peter and i fully support pastor kah.
voter wrote on Aug 31, 2009 4:02 PM:
Take that one Leviticus verse as proof; you use it to condemn gays, but how many of your churches are preaching that gays must be put to death? How many has your pastor personally killed? Remember, they MUST be put to death, right along with adultresses, disobedient children, and those who do not observe the sabbath. "
Why is it that these sorts of questions are never, ever answered? "
Leonard wrote on Sep 2, 2009 5:25 AM:
" Voter, I support "secular" gay marriage. If you remember, I also said I could never be a member of a church that supported gay marriage.
In my opinion, things started to go wrong in this regard when people tried to combine the legal concept of partnership with the religious concept of marriage.
The solution seems clear. Let the government enforce partnerships and let the Churches conduct marriages. "
Cogito wrote on Sep 1, 2009 11:13 AM:
rwayne wrote on Sep 1, 2009 10:32 AM:
Therefore the more helpful discussion will be about which principals of interpretation you follow. How do you choose to follow or not follow certain passages? How is that decision made?To be honest every one of us be able to answer that question before we can speak about biblical meaning. Sorry to be late into the conversation...would like to hear your thoughts. "
Brian wrote on Sep 1, 2009 8:23 AM:
Brian wrote on Sep 1, 2009 8:23 AM:
This Church has chosen political correctness over Gods authority.
-Careful Cog, you're hitting a nerve.
We all no how liberals are such staunch believers in political correctness. Should we say it's become their religon? "
Brian wrote on Sep 1, 2009 8:18 AM:
" Those of you upset with the Lutherans should know that Pastor Fred Phelps at the Westboro Baptist Church welcomes you with open arms. He needs more loving Christians to stand on street corners waving signs that call for gays to be murdered. HE follows that Leviticus verse to the letter. "
Well voter,
Many gays are bound to murder themselves eventually when they get AIDS. I'm opposed to this signage YOU say occurs on street corners. But Heaven forbid you show any compassion
for gays and rise up and condemn sodomy,
the leading cause of gays getting AIDS. "
Cogito wrote on Sep 1, 2009 7:06 AM:
Cogito wrote on Sep 1, 2009 7:04 AM:
Jenn H wrote on Aug 31, 2009 11:12 PM:
dogs4you wrote on Aug 31, 2009 10:00 PM:
voter wrote on Aug 31, 2009 9:33 PM:
voter wrote on Aug 31, 2009 9:29 PM:
max stanfield wrote on Aug 31, 2009 9:07 PM:
Cogito wrote on Aug 31, 2009 8:59 PM:
Cogito wrote on Aug 31, 2009 8:53 PM:
dogs4you wrote on Aug 31, 2009 8:44 PM:
voter wrote on Aug 31, 2009 8:09 PM:
voter wrote on Aug 31, 2009 8:05 PM:
Cogito wrote on Aug 31, 2009 7:50 PM:
dogs4you wrote on Aug 31, 2009 7:42 PM:
voter wrote on Aug 31, 2009 7:21 PM:
Cogito wrote on Aug 31, 2009 7:14 PM:
voter wrote on Aug 31, 2009 6:34 PM:
" This not about the Bible, this is about finding an excuse for your bigotry. "
That's the whole issue in a nutshell. "
max stanfield wrote on Aug 31, 2009 6:11 PM:
perspective wrote on Aug 31, 2009 6:04 PM:
dogs4you wrote on Aug 31, 2009 6:00 PM:
Horst, your babling about Leviticus 20:13 doesn`t apply, since the Castro District in San Francisco is living proof that God is to busy or really doesn`t care, he might have better things to do since he has lost this one. Give it up, you lost, and even if all the straights object, sooner or later the gays will win what they are fighting for. And you can`t stop it. I`m a straight guy but don`t really give a damn one way or the other since it really doesn`t involve me. Turn the other cheek. "
voter wrote on Aug 31, 2009 5:28 PM:
" The Lutheran churches who go along with this decision might as well quit using The Bible to teach anything. Gods word will surely get in their way. I Corinthians 6:9,10 "
You've stated numerous times that you support gay marriage. Was that a lie? "
voter wrote on Aug 31, 2009 5:26 PM:
voter wrote on Aug 31, 2009 4:40 PM:
gray cloud wrote on Aug 31, 2009 4:36 PM:
dogs4you wrote on Aug 31, 2009 4:34 PM:
dogs4you wrote on Aug 31, 2009 4:33 PM:
Horst slogs on to say, love thy neighbor but kill a gay guy. Are you people f----ed up, and makes me glad I have nothing to do with religion. I read all your crap and have come to the conclution that I haven`t missed a thing. "
voter wrote on Aug 31, 2009 4:16 PM:
Ross, homosexuality is not an "idea". I can't imagine the LNS printing an article that said, "Here are some local churches that buck the idea of women (or African Americans, etc.)" Homosexuals are people, not "ideas". According to the AMA and APA, they do not chose and can not change their orientation. This article is not news; it's biased propaganda. "
voter wrote on Aug 31, 2009 4:09 PM:
voter wrote on Aug 31, 2009 4:02 PM:
horst wrote on Aug 31, 2009 3:25 PM:
dogs4you wrote on Aug 31, 2009 2:48 PM:
Bob Hussein Loblaw wrote on Aug 31, 2009 2:10 PM:
lodi boy wrote on Aug 31, 2009 1:50 PM:
No eating pork, shellfish, no working on Sundays, no wearing clothes of mixed fabrics, etc. Look up Leviticus and please - live your life word for word. If you don't, then you are not a Christian or a follower of God. Remember that.
These are God's rules, right? "
max stanfield wrote on Aug 31, 2009 12:22 PM:
Cogito wrote on Aug 31, 2009 11:45 AM:
tosh conn wrote on Aug 31, 2009 11:19 AM:
Cogito wrote on Aug 31, 2009 9:12 AM:
oremus wrote on Aug 31, 2009 8:16 AM:
Describing an entire denomination as "sad" doesn't seem to be keeping with this teaching. About 5 to 10 percent of the student body at his congregation's school come from that "sad" denomination. What about the 8th commandment? What about the teachings of Christ? What about the children? This "sad" denomination is in affiliation with 95% of the world's Lutherans. The other 5% are the Missouri Synod and their friends around the world. I can only hope that Pr. Kah must have been misquoted, or tired or didn't realize what he said. "
Bob Hussein Loblaw wrote on Aug 31, 2009 7:55 AM:
Jenn H wrote on Aug 31, 2009 7:08 AM:
Comments on this story are now closed.