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A man identifying himself as "Frank Earnest," left, and Bobby King, of Sacramento, argue over the subject of prayer in government institutions during a rally at the All Veterans Plaza in Lodi on Wednesday. "Frank Earnest," who is against opening meetings with prayer, argued with several Christian supporters of prayer, some speaking in tongues, before leaving the rally. (Dan Evans/News-Sentinel)
Two opposing sides gather to share views on Lodi council's prayer policy
While lining the sidewalk, 13-year-old Eddie Lopez and about 10 other kids chanted "Jesus said 'Amen,'" as others marched up and down the sidewalk with signs saying "Keep them separate" and "Not all Lodians 'R' Christian."
The debate about the Lodi City Council's prayer policy continued Wednesday night with about 400 people gathering for a prayer meeting near Carnegie Forum, and a couple dozen joining together for a counter rally.
While holding a sign quoting Colossians 3:17, Lodi resident Angela Lopez said she is tired of freedom being taken away from Christians.
"It's becoming harder and harder for the Christians. ... It's only because we support God that our country is as blessed as it is," Lopez said.
Her son, Eddie, also held a sign and a Bible.
"I came just to support Jesus," Eddie Lopez said. "Just for him to know I was here to support him."
As the Lopez's gathered to sing prayer hymns, Lodi resident Steve Weiner said he wanted to make sure the council knew there were two sides to this issue.
"We have Muslims, Sikhs, atheists and people of various faiths, and they can feel excluded and intimidated at council meetings if there is a prayer to one God, Jesus," Weiner said.
The two groups were reacting to a letter the Madison, Wis.-based Freedom From Religion Foundation sent to the council in May threatening to sue if the council did not enforce its own policy limiting prayers to "non-sectarian and non-denominational." The letter specifically mentioned 39 references to Jesus in 55 prayers the group watched online.
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The council decided it wanted to have a meeting to receive public comment and discuss the policy. The meeting was tentatively scheduled for Wednesday but was moved because the council needed to approve time-sensitive contracts. Mayor Larry Hansen announced Wednesday that the policy will be discussed at a special meeting Sept. 30.
In the meantime, the city clerk's office has started to call religious leaders to remind them about the policy.
The rally spilled over into the Lodi City Council meeting, even though the council members were not discussing the policy.
At the beginning of the meeting, people crowded into Carnegie Forum to listen to the invocation by the Rev. Alan Kimber of First United Methodist Church. He held a moment of silence before giving thanks for our country's freedom to express different beliefs.
At the end, he said "Amen," which was followed by some members of the crowd yelling "in Jesus' name." During the Pledge of Allegiance, some members also shouted the words "one nation under God."
The national group The Pray In Jesus Name Project sponsored the rally and had several religious leaders pray and give speeches to the group. People sang, chanted "Jesus," waved American flags and prayed throughout the rally.
Virginia Alejo clapped her hands and smiled during a hymn. She came from Stockton because she objects to governments taking Jesus' name out of prayers.
"This country was made because of our religion. ... The public has to be more aware. We should not be ashamed to be Christians," Alejo said.
Near the back of the crowd, Pastor Mike Abdollahzadeh of Lodi Avenue Baptist Church said this is one way the public can make its opinion heard.
"It's sad that we've gotten to the point where you squabble over prayer. ... Our nation would not be the same without faith, prayer and what God has done," he said.
Lodi United, a local group, led the counter-protest. Resident David Diskin formed the group last week because he wanted people to know that some Lodians do not support prayers before the council meeting.
Notable quotes
"Christians are the silent majority and eventually we have to stop being silent and stand up for our faith."— Arlene Spilloway, Lodi
"Lodi's a pretty quiet place. Lodi is a conservative town. ... To see an issue like this take hold is pretty surprising but good."
— Suanne Minden, Lodi
"Jesus would take a backseat, strike up a conversation, listen to their heart and give them truth along the way."
— Tim Stevenson, senior pastor at Horizon Community Church
"Our country was founded on the basis that it wouldn't be pushed around and bullied by religion."
— Norm Lee, Lodi
"Many Americans wonder what's going on with the economy and school shooting, but we are taking away God and prayer."
— Richard Tafoya, Stockton
"After Proposition 8, it sent home that it needs to be more separate."
— Jessica Chernak, Sacramento
"Both sides will fight hard for what they think is right. It's not a one-night thing."
— Pastor Mike Abdollahzadeh, Lodi Avenue Baptist Church
As a Buddhist, Suanne Minden said she attended to support removing prayer from the meetings and replacing it with a moment of silence. She lives in Lodi but is a Canadian citizen.
"We don't have this type of issue in Canada," Minden said. "We believe in not crossing religion and government."
Describing herself as belonging to one of the few Jewish families in Lodi, 19-year-old Rachel Allen stopped by the rally because she knew that what she described as "conservative Lodi" would be in full force.
"I don't go to council meetings to be preached to. ... Why can't they have a non-denominational prayer? Why is it so important that Jesus' name has to be in it? We all believe in the same God," Allen said.
But not everyone who attended the rallies grabbed signs and joined the group.
Kimber said he walked through the gathering on his way to give the invocation, but said he did not want to attend because his view on the issue was different. He believes the current policy of non-sectarian and non-denominational prayers is good, if it is adhered to.
He also said many of the clergy he talked with did not attend the rally because it was organized by a group outside of Lodi with an extreme view.
"I think the clergy have a deep sense of commitment to each other and the city," Kimber said.
While standing between the two rallies, senior pastor Tim Stevenson of Horizon Community Church in Galt said he came to watch and listen.
"God's pretty big," he said. "I don't think he needs us to defend his name."
He wishes the energy spent by both groups at the rally could go toward bigger problems facing Lodi and the world, like the people standing in front of Salvation Army or the thousands of children who die daily from preventable diseases.
"There are too many things around the world that God told us to go out and do," Stevenson said. "We got our priorities in the wrong place."
Contact reporter Maggie Creamer at maggiec@lodinews.com or read her blog at www.lodinews.com/blog/citybuzz.
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The Realist wrote on Aug 18, 2009 2:54 PM:
Lodian wrote on Aug 13, 2009 9:11 AM:
Tazz: Mee too. And thanks for clearing that up for me. That bumper sticker is right! Yikes! "
Tazz wrote on Aug 12, 2009 3:36 PM:
Contrapasso wrote on Aug 12, 2009 1:03 PM:
Do you think we should rewrite them so no one is "offended"?
It seems that tolerance, maturity, and respect for the principles upon which this country was founded go by the wayside when someone gets "offended."
Ridiculous.....If you don't like prayer, ignore it. Get over yourselves. "
Lodian wrote on Aug 12, 2009 12:14 PM:
Tazz wrote on Aug 12, 2009 11:57 AM:
Lodian wrote on Aug 12, 2009 10:10 AM:
Lodian wrote on Aug 11, 2009 4:44 PM:
"I don't know how Lodian can expect me to believe she would protest a Hindu
offering a prayer at a cc meeting."
Why? Do you think I'm Hindu? "
Lodian wrote on Aug 11, 2009 4:42 PM:
Brian wrote on Aug 11, 2009 8:58 AM:
Brian wrote on Aug 11, 2009 8:56 AM:
offering a prayer at a cc meeting. She would insist that the prayer go on because he is a member of the community
and it is not only about God but his culture too. "
Lodian wrote on Aug 11, 2009 8:53 AM:
Lodian wrote on Aug 11, 2009 8:51 AM:
Lodian wrote on Aug 11, 2009 8:50 AM:
religious."
To whom are they praying? lol! "
dyan wrote on Aug 11, 2009 8:48 AM:
Lodian wrote on Aug 11, 2009 8:46 AM:
Christians should not be complaining that they are being denied any rights at the cc meeting because if that's the road they want to go down then they must say that other religions are being denied as well. The point is that Christians cannot use that line as they are the ones that have been praying at the cc meeting all along, while denying others. One might say that Christians are denying other religions their right to speak/pray. In the end, it's all wrong as there should be a separation between church and state. And, yes, praying at a cc meeting is mixing the two. "
Brian wrote on Aug 11, 2009 8:39 AM:
There are no freedoms being taken away from Christians if a prayer is not said before a cc meeting.
-Lodian,
How is other religions are being denied rights at cc meetings because they can't pray at the meeting but Christians
aren't being denied rights if they can't pray at the meeting? You see my point about your double standards?
Lodian wrote,
Many other religions, besides Christians, have been neglected by the cc and their rights have been denied.
-Yes I understand you are a proponent of furthing the denial of rights to Christians, and Christians are out of line when they protest. "
Brian wrote on Aug 11, 2009 8:30 AM:
at cc meetings and now we are in the midst of Christians getting the same treatment if the Freed From Religon Foundation gets their way. It's all because of a little prayer. But she cheers them on anyway. "
Brian wrote on Aug 11, 2009 8:23 AM:
" It always amazes me that a lot of the same far right wingnuts that are in favor of less government in our lives are all about making sure their church is involved in government. Weird. "
-How is a little prayer at a cc meeting
an act of church involved in government?
One does not have to attend church in order to pray. There are a lot of people who believe in prayer that aren't
religious. "
Brian wrote on Aug 11, 2009 8:18 AM:
Many other religions, besides Christians, have been neglected by the cc and their rights have been denied.
I know Lodian. And now you are a proponent of denying rights to Christians at cc meetings. It's funny how you make Angela Lopez out to be a kook when she says Christians are being denied rights and then you go on to say other religons are denied rights
and Christianity can soon join the list.
Oh, but heaven forbid we call Lodian on her double standards. "
Lodian wrote on Aug 11, 2009 12:10 AM:
Lodian wrote on Aug 11, 2009 12:05 AM:
"It's only because we support God that our country is as blessed as it is," Lopez said."
Thank God for our blessings in guiding our forefathers to make sure church is separate from state. "
Lodian wrote on Aug 11, 2009 12:01 AM:
"While holding a sign quoting Colossians 3:17, Lodi resident Angela Lopez said she is tired of freedom being taken away from Christians."
One can completely adhere to Colossians 3:17 without speaking a Christian prayer out-loud before a Lodi cc meeting. There are no freedoms being taken away from Christians if a prayer is not said before a cc meeting.
No one has yet to explain how the freedom of Christians are being taken away at the Lodi cc meetings. The reason is that the statement holds no water and cannot be backed with facts. "
Lodian wrote on Aug 10, 2009 11:54 PM:
" Perhaps Lodian could care less that these people have to have church services in secret places to avoid further persecution. And how can she conclude that Angela Lopez doesn't know people in this situation? "
Um, because the topic is clearly spelled out for us here and that is what was being discussed. I know you have a hard time focusing Brian, but don't blame your failures on others. Stand up and take the blame for your own shortcomings. Now, pay attention. "
Lodian wrote on Aug 10, 2009 11:52 PM:
Brian: Will you always be lacking class and character? "
Lodian wrote on Aug 10, 2009 11:42 PM:
Brian wrote on Aug 10, 2009 11:29 PM:
Brian wrote on Aug 10, 2009 11:24 PM:
Brian wrote on Aug 10, 2009 11:19 PM:
Here Lodian, take a look.
Oh but heaven forbid you step outside of your little lilly A$$ world for a moment. "
Brian wrote on Aug 10, 2009 11:13 PM:
What freedoms are being taken away from Christians? "
-Evidently Lodian is not aware of all the Christians being persecuted all over the world. Perhaps a visit to the voice of the martyrs website will open
her eyes to this reality. "
Brian wrote on Aug 10, 2009 11:09 PM:
So people who don't live in Lodi and don't attend church in Lodi, but attend church somewhere else, and have a business in Lodi or do business in Lodi should not be allowed to speak their peace in Lodi about this issue? Is this your position?
What other people do you feel are not allowed to speak their peace about this issue in Lodi? "
Lodian wrote on Aug 10, 2009 3:25 PM:
OTH wrote on Aug 10, 2009 11:38 AM:
If the business owners attend church in Lodi fine. If not go home. And that was about the lamest excuse you could come up with! "
Lodian wrote on Aug 9, 2009 1:45 PM:
Lodian wrote on Aug 8, 2009 7:12 PM:
"While holding a sign quoting Colossians 3:17, Lodi resident Angela Lopez said she is tired of freedom being taken away from Christians."
What freedoms are being taken away from Christians? "
Lodian wrote on Aug 8, 2009 7:00 PM:
Brian wrote "-Perhaps, But no one will argue that some of these people don't attend church very often or have a Bible in their house."
----------------
Brian: Oh, be serious! I guarantee you that some of the people turning out downtown in favor of prayer at the cc meetings have not seen the inside of a church in quite some time. I bet some of them couldn't tell you the last time they read a bible verse. I've seen plenty of hypocrites on both sides so don't go getting all righteous on us. "
Brian wrote on Aug 8, 2009 10:05 AM:
" Why doesn't everyone who doesn't live in Lodi go home and let us solve this by ourselves? This is our business and no on elses and I'm sure we are adult enough to find a solution. "
-Well OTH,
Many people own a business or do business in Lodi but don't live in Lodi.
That being said.... "
Brian wrote on Aug 8, 2009 8:36 AM:
Removing prayer from the cc meetings in no way means those in favor do not believe. "
-Perhaps,
But no one will argue that some of these people
don't attend church very often or have a Bible in their house. "
bug wrote on Aug 7, 2009 4:33 PM:
Lodian wrote on Aug 7, 2009 2:35 PM:
Lodian wrote on Aug 7, 2009 2:34 PM:
Lodian wrote on Aug 7, 2009 2:31 PM:
LodiFreeThinker wrote on Aug 7, 2009 11:54 AM:
Often it seems that people want to disprove that notion, but I'll keep the hope alive. :) "
dyan wrote on Aug 7, 2009 9:33 AM:
LodiFreeThinker wrote on Aug 7, 2009 9:28 AM:
LodiFreeThinker wrote on Aug 7, 2009 9:28 AM:
It's not an establishment itself. Also, the city has made no law that respects an establishment. If it were any different, then we wouldn't be marching in front of Carnegie Forum, we would be suing.
The issue instead is about our local government acknowledging a religion above other beliefs. That is not fair or just and it's not what I should expect from my elected leaders.
Government works best when the citizenship is involved. We want people, from all over our community to participate. We can't exclude people based on their beliefs and expect to make effective, informed decisions that work toward the betterment of the community as a whole.
A good step would be to maintain a secular stance in our laws, our courts and our government meetings. This isn't to say that our government should ignore the churches. In order to be effective, the council should have good relationships with as many of the local communities, religious and non-religious, as possible.
Thomas Jefferson said "Commerce with all nations, alliance with none, should be our motto." "
dyan wrote on Aug 7, 2009 6:53 AM:
dyan wrote on Aug 7, 2009 6:48 AM:
Lodian wrote on Aug 6, 2009 11:58 PM:
pork chop wrote on Aug 6, 2009 9:34 PM:
OTH wrote on Aug 6, 2009 8:44 PM:
Caliwings wrote on Aug 6, 2009 5:53 PM:
Caliwings wrote on Aug 6, 2009 5:52 PM:
Caliwings wrote on Aug 6, 2009 5:47 PM:
Caliwings wrote on Aug 6, 2009 5:46 PM:
dogs4you wrote on Aug 6, 2009 5:31 PM:
4AStrongLodi wrote on Aug 6, 2009 5:24 PM:
Praise Jesus! That's Jesus with an "H" sound at the beginning for all the people that T&C wants deported (even if they're U.S. citizens). "
dogbark wrote on Aug 6, 2009 5:01 PM:
dogs4you wrote on Aug 6, 2009 4:38 PM:
stucknlodi wrote on Aug 6, 2009 4:16 PM:
LodiFreeThinker wrote on Aug 6, 2009 4:15 PM:
"...all but one preacher surveyed in this town agreed they could pray without mentioning a specific deity. Would that be a compromise? "
Yes, but not good enough. For example, pagans don't typically pray to a deity at all. Atheists certainly don't pray to a deity, since they don't believe one exists. The issue is not that a specific deity is mentioned, it's that our government is respecting a religion, by allowing a representative to come and pray at the government meeting.
dogbark said
"It would not offend me as a free citizen, if these preachers began a prayer "I will now pray," and conclude "I ask in (God's) name."...
...let the preachers begin 'I will now pray...' "
While I agree it would be better if the religious representative used the words "I will no pray", the fact is the meeting stops. The council stands up and bows their head, and they "
dogs4you wrote on Aug 6, 2009 4:14 PM:
lodimaestro wrote on Aug 6, 2009 4:12 PM:
iambic grape stomp wrote on Aug 6, 2009 4:12 PM:
LodiFreeThinker wrote on Aug 6, 2009 3:42 PM:
Fossil evidence suggests dinosaurs lived on the earth over 200 million years ago, and continued to do so until they went extinct about 65 million years ago.
The Christian Bible is believed by religious scholars to have been written about 3000 years ago. It also suggests that the earth was created 6000 years ago.
So if you believe the first part, about being written 3000 years ago.. then NO, dinosaurs didn't exist during that period.
If you believe the second part, about the earth only being 6000 years old, then you may as well just pretend dinosaurs didn't ever exist, because there is no way they were here that recently without there being massive evidence that showed it. "
shockedinlodi wrote on Aug 6, 2009 3:23 PM:
Three words may be synonymous, argue some Christians, for the huge lizards: “tanniyn,” “behemoth,” and “leviathan.” The most widely used example is “behemoth,” which is found in Job.
Some have used direct biblical text to try and back up their analysis. An example is that these large creatures have “tails like cedar trees” in the Bible, which many dispute must be dinosaurs.
So to answer your question "Can someone tell me if the dinosaur was alive during Biblical time period?" I don’t think this is a yes or no question. "
dogbark wrote on Aug 6, 2009 3:20 PM:
Right to the point! Now all but one preacher surveyed in this town agreed they could pray without mentioning a specific deity. Would that be a compromise? It would not offend me as a free citizen, if these preachers began a prayer "I will now pray," and conclude "I ask in (God's) name."
That shows it is THEIR personal belief as an invited guest. But when they begin "Let US pray.." or end with "WE ask in (God's) name..." they cross the line beyond 'tacit' acknowledgement.
That is not appropriate. What do you think the Wiscn group would think if this compromise was proposed; let the preachers begin 'I will now pray...' "
stucknlodi wrote on Aug 6, 2009 3:11 PM:
dogbark wrote on Aug 6, 2009 3:07 PM:
shockedinlodi wrote on Aug 6, 2009 3:01 PM:
This is not true. David asked people in from other cities as well. I saw the websites talking about carpooling. Please don't act like one side had citizen's from Lodi while the other only asked Lodi citizen's to come. That was my issue with the whole circus. I think we the people of Lodi can figure this out all by ourselves and we do not need outside interest groups coming in and telling us what to do or not to do. I just hope that the downtown made some money off all the clowns last night. "
LodiFreeThinker wrote on Aug 6, 2009 2:57 PM:
Yes, how dare they insist on upholding the establishment clause of The U.S. Constitution.
Also, there is only one E in Atheist. "
sooziesdad wrote on Aug 6, 2009 2:52 PM:
Feelings run high on this issue thus the need to look at the policy and see if it still fits. I believe it does. No one is saying that someone cannot pray. Let's see if we can do it with mutual respect and without trying to do it in such a way that it insults other religions.
Without a doubt I am absolutely convinced that if a member of the Muslim community started the meeting with a prayer to Allah and ending with a tribute to Muhammed, all hell would break lose. We are a religious, not necessarily a Christian, nation made up of a number of faiths. Is the expectation that we start lining up everyone from Atheists to Evangelical Christians so they all can have their say to start what is essentially a business meeting? "
LodiFreeThinker wrote on Aug 6, 2009 2:50 PM:
I couldn't agree more. Our local government should be setting an example by celebrating our diversity and remaining neutral in matters of theology.
A prayer at the city council meetings, is not neutral. Whether or not the name 'Jesus' is involved, praying to a god is tacit government acknowledgment of theistic belief. "
ccinlodi wrote on Aug 6, 2009 2:36 PM:
uncle stinky wrote on Aug 6, 2009 2:23 PM:
Contrapasso wrote on Aug 6, 2009 2:17 PM:
"When, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bonds which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation."
It continues:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."
It concludes like this:
"with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor." "
Contrapasso wrote on Aug 6, 2009 2:10 PM:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Sorry folks, but being offended by other people's speech is not a constitutional right. Get over it. "
commonsense1 wrote on Aug 6, 2009 1:55 PM:
momintum wrote on Aug 6, 2009 1:49 PM:
dogs4you wrote on Aug 6, 2009 1:22 PM:
Lodian wrote on Aug 6, 2009 1:05 PM:
Lodian wrote on Aug 6, 2009 12:57 PM:
" Look at the postures and expressions of the men in the photos. Who looks angry, and who looks peaceful and reasoned? I think it speaks volumes for the mindset on each side of the issue. "
I think you need to take a look at the slideshow photos. "
Lodian wrote on Aug 6, 2009 12:55 PM:
Bob Loblaw wrote on Aug 6, 2009 12:09 PM:
Jdizzle wrote: "Now why don't you organized out of town protesters go home..."
Xenophobia is why Lodi remains a backward, incestuous town that only makes the news when something embarrassing happens. Shameful. "
4AStrongLodi wrote on Aug 6, 2009 11:54 AM:
And, everyone I spoke to on the Separation Church/State side was from Lodi. The out-of-towners were the two pastors leading the Jesus Freaks' rally: one was from Colorado and another was from another part of the State. Many of their protestors were from the Sacramento-area.
I don't know who the nut was who was all over the news, but I know he was there early for that display and he was not part of our rally. He was probably some poser who wanted to get on TV. "
T & C wrote on Aug 6, 2009 11:45 AM:
Darwinlives wrote on Aug 6, 2009 10:48 AM:
mp wrote on Aug 6, 2009 9:56 AM:
mp wrote on Aug 6, 2009 9:54 AM:
mp wrote on Aug 6, 2009 9:53 AM:
Jdizzle wrote on Aug 6, 2009 9:40 AM:
For those who commented on there shame and embarrassment that the city would say a prayer MOVE... The council has said a prayer for decades... Where were the protesters then?
As an immigrant to this country I understand the country was founded on Christian values. I appreciate the FREEDOMS given to me by this country. I wish the people born and raised in this country would do the same.
Now why don't you organized out of town protesters go home...
I have to go to work... "
Cogito wrote on Aug 6, 2009 9:39 AM:
4AStrongLodi wrote on Aug 6, 2009 9:31 AM:
It was particularly entertaining when the two pastors started speaking in tongues. I was pretty sure Ashton Kutcher was going to jump out from behind a bush and yell "You've been punked!" "
wtf wrote on Aug 6, 2009 8:51 AM:
Fact is, I heard Rev. Kimber's "prayer" before the council meeting last night on the news. It was PERFECT! "
wtf wrote on Aug 6, 2009 8:49 AM:
He wishes the energy spent by both groups at the rally could go toward bigger problems facing Lodi and the world, "There are too many things around the world that God told us to go out and do. We got our priorities in the wrong place." "
wtf wrote on Aug 6, 2009 8:49 AM:
He also said many of the clergy he talked with did not attend the rally because it was organized by a group outside of Lodi with an extreme view.
"I think the clergy have a deep sense of commitment to each other and the city," Kimber said. "
leah wrote on Aug 6, 2009 8:33 AM:
yardcat wrote on Aug 6, 2009 8:26 AM:
If a large company had its employees start their day out with a reading from the Koran, they would be stopped in their tracks.
Religion does not belong in government, period. "
davidd wrote on Aug 6, 2009 8:15 AM:
I hope that those who are interested in a moment of silence, or separation, will join Lodi United.
Please find us on Facebook (search for "Lodi United") or visit www.LodiUnited.org. "
pooreastside wrote on Aug 6, 2009 8:10 AM:
T & C wrote on Aug 6, 2009 8:07 AM:
Cogito wrote on Aug 6, 2009 7:45 AM:
realist wrote on Aug 6, 2009 7:36 AM:
Jenn H wrote on Aug 6, 2009 7:28 AM:
jbhiker wrote on Aug 6, 2009 6:43 AM:
Curveball wrote on Aug 6, 2009 5:36 AM:
Comments on this story are now closed.