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Randy Thomasson, right, the president of www.savecalifornia.com, and Gordon James Klingenschmitt, of The Pray In Jesus Name Project and a former Navy chaplain, talk to the media during a press conference they held in front of Carnegie Forum on Monday about praying before City Council meetings. (Brian Feulner/News-Sentinel)

Prayer showdown

Two groups — one for prayer and one against — to hold rallies before Wednesday's City Council meeting

By Maggie Creamer
News-Sentinel Staff Writer
Tuesday, August 4, 2009 6:13 AM PDT

In an all-black outfit, Gordon James Klingenschmitt stood with his Bible in hand and quoted from both religious texts and the U.S. Constitution to prove that Jesus should be allowed in prayer at the Lodi City Council meetings.

The founder of the Colorado Springs, Co.-based The Pray In Jesus Name Project was standing in front of Carnegie Forum at a news conference he set up Monday.

Publicity is one of his organization's best tools to get the word out about their cause, and a prayer rally is planned for 6 p.m. Wednesday, Klingenschmitt said. The group also used an Internet campaign to collect 5,185 signatures on a petition advocating that the word Jesus remain in prayers. Of the signatures, 2,826 are from California.

"Jesus is not an illegal word. ... Now, an atheist's group is using the government's sword to tell me I can't pray in Jesus' name," Klingenschmitt said.

A former Navy chaplain, Klingenschmitt has been in the media in recent years for arguing with communities and the military about the use of Jesus in prayer.

As the only member of the public attending the news conference, Lodi resident David Diskin stood off to the side and listened.

A week ago, Diskin joined with a small group of residents called Lodi United to organize a "counter-rally" starting at 5:15 p.m. Wednesday. He stresses that the group will be made up of both atheists and people from a variety of faiths who share the belief that the council should not pray before meetings.

He is the group's unlikely spokesman, having never identified with the Republican or Democratic parties or led a political citizens' group before. But for him, it's important to let people know that they can speak out.

"We want to show the people of Lodi and the Lodi City Council that there are people who have strong opinions. ... People might not come Wednesday because they are worried what their family, colleagues or business partners would say, and I can sympathize," Diskin said.



Lodi resident David Diskin is setting up a counter-rally in support of eliminating prayers from council meetings. (Brian Feulner/News-Sentinel)


Rallies at a glance

On Wednesday, two different groups will gather in front of Carnegie Forum to voice their opinions about prayer before Lodi City Council meetings.

Prayer meeting

Main group involved: Pray In Jesus Name Project

When: 6 p.m. to 7 p.m. in front of Carnegie Forum

Counter-rally opposing prayers before council meeting

Main group involved: Lodi United

When: 5:15 p.m. to 7:15 p.m. in front of Carnegie Forum

News-Sentinel staff

Klingenschmitt and Diskin are on opposite ends of an argument over whether the council should enforce its "non-sectarian and non-denominational" prayer policy.

Both groups have decided to hold rallies Wednesday, even though the council will not be discussing the prayer policy.

For years, the council has allowed religious leaders to say Jesus' name in their prayers. The Madison, Wis.-based Freedom From Religion Foundation challenged the practice in May and demanded the council enforce its own policy or face a lawsuit.

The challenge has set up a debate between those who believe the council should get rid of prayer completely and others who believe the council has gone too far by requesting that the name "Jesus Christ" be removed.

In Jesus' name

Klingenschmitt has been embroiled in controversy over the past years by taking his organization to various communities and pushing them to continue or reinstate policies that allow prayers to Jesus.

His crusade started in the military, when he said he was told he could not pray in the name of Jesus, he said.

But his story surrounding his struggles in the Navy is different than the story of his superior, retired Navy Captain Norman Holcomb, whom the News-Sentinel interviewed by phone Monday.

During his service, Klingenschmitt preached about hell at a sailor's funeral and protested the Navy's failure to meet a Jewish sailor's request for kosher meals, according to a January 2006 article in The Washington Post. The article also said he organized a group of Navy personnel who refused to attend a church service led by a gay minister during Fleet Week.

He led an 18-day hunger strike in December 2005 and January 2006 in front of the White House to require the Navy to allow him to pray in Jesus' name. But the Navy said it had no regulation against praying to Jesus and "has always encouraged every chaplain to pray according to his own individual faith during worship services," Navy spokesman Lt. William Marks said in the 2006 Post article.

As his commander for two years, Holcomb said Monday that Klingenschmitt's discharge had nothing to do with praying to Jesus. Holcomb described Klingenschmitt as untruthful, lacking military commitment and unwilling to abide by established rules and regulations.

Holcomb said Klingenschmitt was court martialed because he wore his Navy chaplain uniform to a political rally, after being warned that he would be violating military procedure, he said.

In September 2006, The Washington Post also reported Klingenschmitt was court martialed because he attended a political rally in uniform during March of that year. He was found guilty of a misdemeanor count of disobeying a lawful order in September 2006.

Klingenschmitt maintained he was at the event to offer public prayer and had written permission to wear his uniform when he is conducting "a bona fide worship service or observance," he said in the article. But military prosecutor Cmdr. Rex A. Guinn said the event was not a worship service or observance.

Klingenschmitt was then honorably discharged in 2007.

Holcomb said Klingenschmitt was always allowed to pray in Jesus' name, but many troops did not like him as a chaplain because he would incite the soldiers during his prayers, Holcomb said.

"If you are a chaplain in the military, you can't act like you are a preacher at a local church, because you have to take care of everybody, regardless of whether they believe what you do or not," Holcomb said.

From the military, Klingenschmitt founded The Pray In Jesus Name Project and has been to several states in the country to assist local people in fighting against groups trying to limit prayer, he said.

"We want Lodi to stick to its guns and allow religious freedom," he said.

SaveCalifornia.com, a statewide pro-family organization, is also throwing support behind Klingenschmitt's cause. The group heavily campaigned for Proposition 8, a ban on same-sex marriage that passed in November.

At the Monday news conference, president Randy Thomasson said the government should not interfere with a group's religious freedom.

"This is about Lodi, but it is also about America. ... If atheists are able to squash religious freedom in Lodi, they will be hungry to squash religious freedom in other cities," Thomasson said.

Another group, the Alliance Defense Fund, has also voiced support for keeping a policy that allows for uncensored prayers.

Local attorney Mark Bowman, who is a member of the fund, has sent a letter to the city offering to defend Lodi in court for free if the council adopts a prayer policy that does not restrict the content of the prayer.

"It is my hope that our city will not succumb to mere 'threats' to remove a practice that has enjoyed over two centuries of protection," Bowman said in a letter dated July 28.

Word of mouth opposition

While sitting outside Carnegie Forum, Diskin admits if his group had more time maybe they would have thought to also hold a news conference.

Diskin, whose day job is providing training on Microsoft Office, has never actively protested religion in government but has always felt there should be a separation of church and state.

He said Lodi United is depending on word of mouth, and he hopes the Wednesday rally will be the start of a group that opposes religion in government.

"When something comes up that is important to you, you tend to get on it right away," he said.

The rally will go from 5:15 to 7:15 p.m. and end with appetizers at Lodi Beer Company. Diskin said it is important to give the group time afterward to discuss, because many of them will be meeting for the first time.

His main objection to The Pray In Jesus Name Project is that they are going beyond supporting prayer.

"He doesn't want to just allow prayer, but he wants to bring Jesus into these meetings. ... Why would someone feel comfortable if they didn't believe that," Diskin said.

He imagines the group he is forming will exist even after the Lodi issue is solved, because it includes people from around the region, include Modesto, Sacramento and Turlock.

"There is no reason we can't lend our help to them when the time comes in their cities," Diskin said.

Contact reporter Maggie Creamer at maggiec@lodinews.com or read her blog at www.lodinews.com/blog/citybuzz.

Reader Feedback

Bob Hussein Loblaw wrote on Aug 10, 2009 5:16 PM:

" I agree, it is a fun word Lodian. Of course, that means Bryan will label it a "liberal" word.

If Bryan ever figures out what the word liberal really means, he/she might have a seizure. "

Lodian wrote on Aug 10, 2009 3:40 PM:

" bamboozled... fun word. :-) "

Lodian wrote on Aug 10, 2009 3:22 PM:

" I'm sure you're right about Brian/dyan (Bryan). "

Bob Loblaw wrote on Aug 10, 2009 3:18 PM:

" You've got him/her bamboozled Lodian. "

Lodian wrote on Aug 9, 2009 4:30 PM:

" Brian: So, I guess you are in support of men wearing pantyhose at work on Fridays. I have not seen you make a statement to deny this action so this must mean that you are in "support" of said Friday hose. "

Lodian wrote on Aug 9, 2009 4:27 PM:

" Okay, let's try it this way... "

Lodian wrote on Aug 9, 2009 4:26 PM:

" Brian: Please put down the Sunday booze. You are making up topics and conversations in your head. No one has spoken to you about any of the things you have posted in the last few blogs. Try not to blog when intoxicated. You are so weird! LOL! "

Bob Hussein Loblaw wrote on Aug 9, 2009 3:51 PM:

" I remember my first doobie.... "

Brian wrote on Aug 9, 2009 3:19 PM:

" Lodian, Voter,

So I take it you don't believe, as it states on the Army website, that these internment camps not only exist but there are more in the making? "

Lodian wrote on Aug 9, 2009 2:23 PM:

" voter: I agree. "

voter wrote on Aug 9, 2009 1:34 PM:

" He's drinking again. "

Brian wrote on Aug 9, 2009 1:20 PM:

" Internment / Resettlement Specialists in the Army are primarily responsible for day-to-day operations in a military confinement/correctional facility or detention/internment facility. Internment / Resettlement Specialists provide rehabilitative, health, welfare, and security to US military prisoners within a confinement or correctional facility; provide custody, control, supervision and security to internees within a detention/internment facility; conduct inspections; prepare written reports; coordinate activities of prisoners/internees and staff personnel. "

Brian wrote on Aug 9, 2009 1:17 PM:

" Voter,
Please tell us about your campaign
to round up the people who don't think like Obama to be put in internment camps.

http://www.goarmy.com/JobDetail.do?id=292

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=106304 "

Lodian wrote on Aug 9, 2009 11:35 AM:

" voter: Tell us more. What got some to start speaking in tongues? "

Bob Hussein Loblaw wrote on Aug 9, 2009 8:54 AM:

" It sounds like it was quite the spectacle. I'll bet a sociology professor would have had a field day. "

voter wrote on Aug 9, 2009 7:31 AM:

" Bob, it was a freaking circus. I understand your revulsion, but for me it was one part entertainment and one part cultural curiosity. Some of the behaviors I witnessed bordered on insanity. "

Bob Hussein Loblaw wrote on Aug 9, 2009 12:05 AM:

" No voter, I wasn't there. You couldn't have paid me to be there. "

Robb wrote on Aug 8, 2009 10:06 PM:

" Just ask yourselves, why do all religions believe that all others are wrong, and their way is THE only way??

What a load of crap.. come on people, think for yourselves... sheep.. "

Lodian wrote on Aug 8, 2009 7:50 PM:

" ...


voter: Here are more pictures from the rally.

http://www.facebook.com/photo_comments.php?id=105675112751#/album.php?aid=94989&id=105675112751


... "

Lodian wrote on Aug 8, 2009 6:30 PM:

" voter: Thanks for the photo link. I wonder why we haven't seen or heard anything about such nuts here on this site.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/41267439@N03/#photo3800429435

. "

Lodian wrote on Aug 8, 2009 6:28 PM:

" voter: Yes, I agree, Brian and his significant other are quite a pair. How would ya like living next to those two? Yikes! "

Lodian wrote on Aug 8, 2009 6:26 PM:

" Brian wrote "No Lodian, I don't give my wife dutch ovens and then force her to sleep in the doghouse if she doesn't like it."


Bryan: What in the world are you talking about? Are you okay? You are obsessed with farting. Are you in 6th grade? "

Brian wrote on Aug 8, 2009 12:17 PM:

" Voter,

If I happen to let one go at night
and my wife just happens to have the covers over her head, it's self induced on her part. "

voter wrote on Aug 8, 2009 11:51 AM:

" Brian wrote on Aug 8, 2009 11:15 AM:
" I don't give my wife dutch ovens and then force her to sleep in the doghouse
if she doesn't like it. "


You're implying that she somehow likes this treatment on occasion--you don't force her IF she doesn't like it. You two are quite a pair. "

Brian wrote on Aug 8, 2009 11:15 AM:

" No Lodian,

I don't give my wife dutch ovens and then force her to sleep in the doghouse
if she doesn't like it. "

voter wrote on Aug 8, 2009 8:25 AM:

" Also, thought those of you who didn't attend might want to see what kind of fine, loving Christians were out in force.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/41267439@N03/#photo3800429435 "

voter wrote on Aug 8, 2009 8:16 AM:

" Bob, by any chance, were you at the prayer circus on Wednesday night? "

Bob Hussein Loblaw wrote on Aug 7, 2009 11:16 PM:

" Lodian, they don't pray outside before meetings because the mini bar is inside. "

Lodian wrote on Aug 7, 2009 4:21 PM:

" What is stopping the cc members from praying outside the cc meetings just before they meet for council business? "

Lodian wrote on Aug 7, 2009 4:19 PM:

" bug: Are you under the impression that all the people interested in separating church (prayer) and state (the Lodi city council meetings) are non-believers? "

bug wrote on Aug 7, 2009 4:08 PM:

" Guess what I found in the bible. I found the group from Wisconsin being mentioned in the bible. If you have a bible look for yourself, it is in Psalms 14:1 "

Lodian wrote on Aug 7, 2009 2:26 PM:

" Brian wrote on Aug 6, 2009 7:52 AM:

" As usual, lodian has nothing to offer other than the usual attacks on people she disagrees with. I'm still convinced
she makes her husband sleep in the doghouse because she refuses to put up with his criticism of her endless flatulence. "


Geez, it's sort of sad how Brian doesn't see that his own actions are exactly that of what he accuses others of doing. Classic projection. "

Lodian wrote on Aug 6, 2009 8:04 AM:

" Pot Kettle black "

Brian wrote on Aug 6, 2009 7:52 AM:

" As usual, lodian has nothing to offer other than the usual attacks on people she disagrees with. I'm still convinced
she makes her husband sleep in the doghouse because she refuses to put up with his criticism of her endless flatulence. "

Bob Hussein Loblaw wrote on Aug 5, 2009 9:16 PM:

" Because it is way more interesting that way. "

stantaves wrote on Aug 5, 2009 8:41 PM:

" C'mon you guys, how is it that my little rhyme turns into another way to attack Brian? "

Lodian wrote on Aug 5, 2009 8:00 PM:

" Brianese? LOL "

Lodian wrote on Aug 5, 2009 8:00 PM:

" It is a fact Brian has not a cat. Bri once had a hat when he thought he was fat, but a cat snagged that hat when Bri went for a tat. Some thought Bri had a cat when he sat and attacked peeps till dawn. But one must know that only kind souls can pat a cat and there's where we can exclude that guy, Bri, as a man with a cat. "

Bob Hussein Loblaw wrote on Aug 5, 2009 6:19 PM:

" Or, in Brianese:

So we can conclude that you don't think I do not a have a cat and do not allow my cat to not go to these meetings? " "

Lodian wrote on Aug 5, 2009 6:04 PM:

" stantaves: I didn't know Brian had a cat. "

Brian wrote on Aug 5, 2009 3:01 PM:

" Davidd,

Not buying your BS.
Mao's atheism had
nothing to do with his actions is about as logical as saying (radical theism had nothing to do with the crusades), a charge atheists are quick to not let society forget. "

linengray wrote on Aug 5, 2009 12:32 PM:

" You human beings make me crazy. Why not think of constructive things to do instead of throwing dead cats and bibles.

I think I will go back to my planet of "we are as crazy as you". And I am not taking passengers. "

stantaves wrote on Aug 5, 2009 8:31 AM:

" Pwah, pwah, fiddle-fat; you came to town dragging an old dead cat. For God's sake, is that the best you can bring? Now go on get, can't you smell that thing? Apparently not, or you love that smell; but just drag it back home, to your own little hell. Then we'll all forget about your trip to our city; but you'll still smell, now ain't that a pity? "

Lodian wrote on Aug 5, 2009 1:36 AM:

" jeff wrote on Aug 4, 2009 9:10 PM:

" brian do you not think that you can not learn to not put to many negatives in a sentence? "


LOL! Well said. "

davidd wrote on Aug 4, 2009 9:57 PM:

" Shockedinlodi, I can appreciate your concern with the local groups that have been invited to join us. They are from Sacramento and Modesto, and they too are worried about prayer in their cities. Their support for us is also to prevent the same from happening where they come from.

I wouldn't call them "out there", and certainly not lump them into the same category as Mr Klingenschmitt. They are secular individuals who believe chuch should be separate from state. Their religious ideals, or lack thereof, are not at issue here. I welcome them to Lodi.

Brian, atheism means a non-theist. Why would my position on atheism preclude me from disapproving Mao's actions? His atheism had nothing to do with his actions, but that doesn't make it right. I fail to follow any of your logic.

lodimaestro, thanks for the kind words. Everyone who has contributed to our cause, especially those who will be at our rally Wednesday, are the ones who really deserve the credit.

For more information about Lodi United, please visit www.LodiUnited.org. "

jeff wrote on Aug 4, 2009 9:10 PM:

" brian do you not think that you can not learn to not put to many negatives in a sentence? "

dogs4you wrote on Aug 4, 2009 9:09 PM:

" I would like to see Mazie have dinner with Dr. Lector. "

yeah you wrote on Aug 4, 2009 8:37 PM:

" Brian, you need to read some other history books. What's Mao have to do with this? Good for you, David. There's hope yet for this town. "

Brian wrote on Aug 4, 2009 8:34 PM:

" lodimaestro,

So we can conclude that you don't think it is not a foolish policy to not allow
prayer at these meetings? "

lodimaestro wrote on Aug 4, 2009 8:18 PM:

" Diskin is a brave man and a hero in my book for standing up to a foolish policy that needs to go. Want to pray? Do it in a church or in your own home! "

Brian wrote on Aug 4, 2009 7:44 PM:

" Davidd,

So we can conclude that you harbor the belief that
atheism itself isn't a principle, cause, philosophy, or belief system which people fight, die, or kill for?

If this is the case then we must conclude that you don't have any ill will for Mao because his Atheism had nothing nothing to do with his motives as a Communist to slaughter millions?

Is this your position? "

Lodian wrote on Aug 4, 2009 7:37 PM:

" jrs wrote on Aug 4, 2009 8:36 AM:

" Mazie, I would not try to stop you, as I am a Christian myself, and fully support (and encourage!) your right to pray anywhere you see fit. It's your tactics and vitriol with which I disagree. Not effective, not healthy, not in the mold of Jesus. It gives all of us Christians a bad name, and I hope to disassociate others of us with the way that you go about expressing your views. "


jrs: Very well said! I completely agree. "

anthropis wrote on Aug 4, 2009 7:32 PM:

" dogs4you; you must have me mixed up with someone else, I never inferred that Jesus Christ was the only person ever crucified, nor did I suggest the ACLU preceded the 20th century. As I understand it Jesus Christ was found to be guilty of blasphemy for He claimed to be God. That irritated the people of that time and apparently still does! "

dogs4you wrote on Aug 4, 2009 6:58 PM:

" This soul saving mission starts with, a man in black, without going further I thought it was about Johnnie Cash. Reading on it was not. Allot of these and those being tossed around, it is difficult for me to know what is right and wrong, and after finishing all the posts, it would seem I haven`t missed a thing, glad I know what I know and don`t need to know, especially after all that slop by hateful people.

Anthropis, from your post you make it sound like Christ was the only person to die on a cross. For your info. that was the way of excuation in those times. Spartacus was, ( and yes there was a Spartacus ) and 3000 of his followers were crucified on the Arpinum Way, the road that lead to Rome and their bodies were left there to rot, with orders not to be taken down. According to Rome, Christ died for treason, life was rough in those times, no ACLU. "

shockedinlodi wrote on Aug 4, 2009 6:16 PM:

" Davidd - You say you are not Atheists but all of the groups that support you are Atheists. Under your Secular Organizations (on your website) most of these groups are "out there" to put it nicely. You have asked these groups to come and participate in a rally. You have asked these groups to Lodi to rally and I can't help out wonder is that a good idea. Do you know who these groups are or what they have been involved in? To put together a local protest is one thing but asking groups to come into the town and rally I feel is another. You say people will not come because they are worried, I will not come because it is a circus flat out circus that you both have created.

Gordon James Klingenschmitt - Now for you. I will not waste words for you. You are insane. You talk of God and your words are nothing but hate. You are a hate seeker and will find it any way you can in the name of God. People like you turn people in to Atheists.

Both of you need to grow up. "

sooziesdad wrote on Aug 4, 2009 6:01 PM:

" Agree wholeheartdly with big D. Tired of these Christian nut cases trying to shove their brand of religion down everyone's throat. "

davidd wrote on Aug 4, 2009 5:54 PM:

" Brian, I hope you understand that atheism and communism have nothing to do with each other.

You have been misled by the same propaganda that circulated through the US when we were at war with Russia.

Regardless, this is not an issue of atheism. It is an issue of tolerance, acceptance, and respect.

We cannot let our city council meetings make people feel unwanted or unwelcome. With prayer to a specific diety, they do. "

davidd wrote on Aug 4, 2009 5:51 PM:

" anthropis, the analogy stands because the invocations have no place being there.

The issue that they were invited is the very reason we are rallying to begin with. It causes people to feel uncomfortable, and unwelcome.

We hope that the time can be replaced with a moment of silence. "

voter wrote on Aug 4, 2009 5:28 PM:

" I'd be happy to discuss it, Brian. Where, pray tell, are you getting your McFacts? "

Brian wrote on Aug 4, 2009 4:59 PM:

" More people have been slaughtered IN THE NAME OF ATHEISM AND COMMUNISM than
all religons combined. A fact the anti-prayer kooks don't want to discuss. "

anthropis wrote on Aug 4, 2009 4:49 PM:

" It does not bother me if people believe differently than I for every person is created with free moral agency. Each person is created with free moral agency and I accept people for who they are. "

anayud wrote on Aug 4, 2009 4:31 PM:

" Bless you Justin. Messiah Yeshua (Jesus) would do just that. He, in fact, taught that very thing by His actions. That is how a Rabbi teaches. The small Nazarene mishpahah in Lodi is quietly praying for Lodi in our homes. "

leah wrote on Aug 4, 2009 4:24 PM:

" anthropis: If faith were a gift, then why would God give it to some and not others? Faith is not a gift, it is a choice. If someone doesn't believe in your God, it doesn't necessarily mean they don't have faith...they just don't have faith in YOUR religion. I am not mocking your beliefs...I didn't mean for it to come across that way. I don't care what you or anyone else believes as long as they don't push it in my face and act like they have the upperhand in life because they KNOW the truth and I don't. My truth is true to me and your truth is true to you. That's fine if you believe that your truth is the only one...it doesn't affect me either way. If you are right, you'll be in heaven and all the "non-believers" will be in hell, so why does it bother you so much when someone believes something different than you (and by "you" I don't mean just you, I mean the majority of religious people). "

anthropis wrote on Aug 4, 2009 4:19 PM:

" David and Leah, I would agree with you two if a religious person was not invited by the council and interrupted their city council meeting. And such a frivolous analogy actually receives a blog award.....really! "

anthropis wrote on Aug 4, 2009 4:04 PM:

" Leah, it is the only right way for those who have the gift of faith, why must that be mocked? Judaism and Christianity are set apart from all other religions of which all others are mere limited philosophies of man. "

anthropis wrote on Aug 4, 2009 3:43 PM:

" Christian persecution is nothing new, it has been with us since our Lord God Savior Jesus Christ was mocked, flogged and crucified! "

davidd wrote on Aug 4, 2009 3:42 PM:

" Leah, I bestow upon you the award for the best comment I've read in this thread all day:

"Would you like it if the city council came into your church on Sunday and interrupted the sermon with LUSD agendas, wastewater issues, etc. It's just unecessary and ridiculous!"

That was wonderful! Thank you, and I hope you'll be joining us Wednesday at 5:15.

More info at www.LodiUnited.org "

dogs4you wrote on Aug 4, 2009 3:28 PM:

" shockedinlodi, I got the first round while all those buffoons ramble on about who`s right and who`s wrong. I have a feeling more could be accomplished over a few beers. If not we might be happy over the results, better call a cab though. "

leah wrote on Aug 4, 2009 3:25 PM:

" Justin: I'm sure they'll twist that around to their liking just like they do everything else.

Shocked: I'm in...but I might need a shot to go with that beer! "

justin wrote on Aug 4, 2009 3:13 PM:

" Perhaps when considering whether to pray in public places (city council meetings, for instance) Christians should ask what would Jesus recommend? For the answer read Matthew 6:6. 'But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.' There you go. Problem solved. "

shockedinlodi wrote on Aug 4, 2009 3:10 PM:

" dogs4you - A moment of silence and end with appetizers at Lodi Beer Company. That sounds perfect to me.
:) "

dogs4you wrote on Aug 4, 2009 2:52 PM:

" Forget all the religion stuff, as it is getting nowhere fast and only brings anger to those that don`t agree with it. A moment of silence will do, as the old radio program`er Don McNiel, "for those old enought to remember", said everday on his program, a moment of silence, each in his own word`s and each in his own way, there that should solve the problem, or just say the Pledge of Allegiance, what could be more American and get on with it, since there will never be a winner, only proving that you can`t please all the people all the time, but you sure can piss them off. "

leah wrote on Aug 4, 2009 2:49 PM:

" Anthropis: It is not religious intolerance to not want a prayer at a city council meeting. Would you like it if the city council came into your church on Sunday and interrupted the sermon with LUSD agendas, wastewater issues, etc. It's just unecessary and ridiculous! It has NOTHING to do with fearing people who have faith in Jesus AT ALL!! Couldn't be further from the truth...feel sorry for them that they are so narrow minded to only believe that theirs is the only right way is more like it. "

leah wrote on Aug 4, 2009 2:37 PM:

" JRS: I totally agree with your statement to Mazie. She spews insults all over this website...all the while referring to herself as a Christian. You're right, it DOES give Christians a bad name. That's exactly what I tried to tell her before, but she just insulted me further because she didn't understand that I was only saying it is rude to push your views on someone else, and then if they don't agree with you...call them names and tell them they are going straight to hell! She doesn't even realize how ignorant she sounds. You could pray to Jesus or Satan for all I care, just don't act like you are better than me if I don't! "

jbhiker wrote on Aug 4, 2009 1:49 PM:

" The Religious right thinks they have a "Free Pass" to do anything, say anything and make rules for society - all in the name of god. The only good thing left of religion in America is the part where they help other people. But much of that is gone now. Religion is more about Power now. "

4AStrongLodi wrote on Aug 4, 2009 12:45 PM:

" linengray - That's a very naive question to ask. The reason there is so much vitrol about religion is because it is frequently used to push an agenda that takes away peoples' rights. Did you not see the article about Sudan today? http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32282467/ns/world_news-africa/

I don't think many people object to religion, if it is practiced without trying to restrict or enforce the rights of others. I, for one, am scared of what the Religious Fundamentalists in this Country are trying to achieve. "

linengray wrote on Aug 4, 2009 12:34 PM:

" Can someone please tell me why religion and the name of Christ brings out so much hatred and vitrol in people who say they are religious. What happened to tolerance? Are you only capable of tolerating what you agree with? Where do some of you learn about your religion? Most of you make me very confused. So much anger supposedly in the name of your God. If he has time for you, I am sure he is very proud of the venom you spread in his name. "

wtf wrote on Aug 4, 2009 12:27 PM:

" anthropis wrote: "We are indeed testing the Constitution here, it's lofty words and history prior to the present overwhelmingly support Religious Freedom and the free exercise thereof...."

But, anthropis, that does NOT mean freedom for you to shove your religion down everyone else's throats! ;) "

shockedinlodi wrote on Aug 4, 2009 12:26 PM:

" "He doesn't want to just allow prayer, but he wants to bring Jesus into these meetings. ... "

Well if there bringing Jesus, I am there.

Does this country have any tolerance for anything anymore? Does everything have to end in a lawsuit?

“ and end with appetizers at Lodi Beer Company.”

Can someone tell me what appetizers will be served? I need to know so I know who I will be supporting. Beer vs. the City Council Meeting….hmmm I just don’t know where I will end up. "

anthropis wrote on Aug 4, 2009 11:39 AM:

" We are indeed testing the Constitution here, it's lofty words and history prior to the present overwhelmingly support Religious Freedom and the free exercise thereof. And then came the ACLU! "

4AStrongLodi wrote on Aug 4, 2009 11:21 AM:

" Ha ha! That's funny anthropis! I thought we were talking about Constitution. "

anthropis wrote on Aug 4, 2009 11:11 AM:

" Why is it that some fear a person who has faith in Jesus Christ? After all death could not hold Him and He promised that those who follow Him will have Life Eternal. "

anthropis wrote on Aug 4, 2009 10:55 AM:

" One or the other will emerge victorious;
Religious Freedom or Religious Intolerance. "

4AStrongLodi wrote on Aug 4, 2009 10:41 AM:

" People like Audi 5000 are the reason I'm supporting David and Lodi United. Those are the people who really scare me. "

Stinkeypete wrote on Aug 4, 2009 10:31 AM:

" Bill of Rights
Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. "

Audi 5000 wrote on Aug 4, 2009 10:19 AM:

" glassparguy: Why would you be "honored" to have someone from another faith pray for you. As a professing Christian you must know that Jesus is the only way to the Father, God. Therefore all other religious trains of thought do not have access to God and therefore their prayers, no matter how well intentioned, fall to the ground in futility.

We can disagree with love and with respect for people of other faiths, but never are Christians ever to embrace ideology that is in direct opposition with the truth of God's word. We don't compromise the transcendent word of God for cultural acceptance, popularity, or religious "unity". "

glassparguy wrote on Aug 4, 2009 10:03 AM:

" David I think what Mazie was offended by was the quote by Kathy Griffin that you have on your site. I don't think that is a necessary thing to have to get your point across. By having something that says "I am sick to death of Jesus" on your site doesn't tell me that there are many Christians involved in your organization like you say there are. I would strongly consider removing that from your website.
With that said, Tiger, I agree with you 100%. If Muslims or Hindus or whoever want to throw a prayer in there, by all means go ahead. I am a Christian, but I have respect for all religions. I would personally be honored if someone from another faith prayed for me. And it has happened before. I'm from the melting pot known as San Jose so naturally I have many friends with many different faiths and lack thereof..lol. This seems like a huge waste of time to me. Don't we have more important things to worry about here? "

davidd wrote on Aug 4, 2009 9:45 AM:

" Tiger, while I agree that prayer doesn't hurt people in private, it makes people uncomfortable.

And, I would encourage you to check out some of the "prayer" that Mr Klingenschmitt has given in Jesus' name.

He has specifically prayed for harm to come to others. His website is full of anti-homosexual and anti-muslim remarks. "

tiger wrote on Aug 4, 2009 9:19 AM:

" the prayers made during council meetings do not hurt anyone. I see no problem with allowing them. I can see a problem, if one forces non-Christians to say them, or that one that uses prayer to derogate others. Heck It would even be better if there people in the council who are of non-christian religions also offered a prayer to their gods during council meeting! no harm in extra luck!

Have people forgotten about respect? Just respect for others and their beliefs? So what if the majority are Christians? what if the majority was Muslim? would we condemn their prayers to Allah before meetings?? Don't need to rain hell on them. (pun not intended).

Praying for a good session, or just wisdom in general is NOT a problem, should not be a problem.

And this is just a silly argument between right wings and left wings who can't just leave each other well enough alone. "

4AStrongLodi wrote on Aug 4, 2009 9:12 AM:

" Klingenschmitt is obviously a kook. Get him some meds, please.

I'll there supporting David and Lodi United! "

wtf wrote on Aug 4, 2009 8:57 AM:

" davidd, what a great website! I particularly liked your link to the video of JFK. I can remember the "fear" put out in the MSM when he was elected prez because he was a Catholic; the "fear" being that the Pope would tell him what to do....never happened. Can't say the same for Bush and his "base" though. LOL! Funny thing is, it was the Bush base types that were afraid the Pope would run things if there were a Catholic prez. ;) "

davidd wrote on Aug 4, 2009 8:53 AM:

" Mazie, if any of the content at www.LodiUnited.org was offensive, I ask you to please let me know what it was. I will certainly consider removing it. You may email me at david@LodiUnited.org. "

wtf wrote on Aug 4, 2009 8:51 AM:

" Regarding your 8:49 AM post: Well said, jrs! "

davidd wrote on Aug 4, 2009 8:51 AM:

" For those interested in joining Lodi United, please visit www.LodiUnited.org or search for "Lodi United" on Facebook. "

jeff wrote on Aug 4, 2009 8:49 AM:

" mazie, how did www.lodiunited.org offend you? perhaps davidd would consider changes. oh, and no one, not even davidd or myself, is trying to stop you from praying anytime you feel like. feel free to as often as you like. what is being asked is that the cc not start our loval gov't meeting with prayers to jesus, or any other diety. R'Amen. "

jrs wrote on Aug 4, 2009 8:39 AM:

" Mazie, I would not try to stop you, as I am a Christian myself, and fully support (and encourage!) your right to pray anywhere you see fit. It's your tactics and vitriol with which I disagree. Not effective, not healthy, not in the mold of Jesus. It gives all of us Christians a bad name, and I hope to disassociate others of us with the way that you go about expressing your views. "

jrs wrote on Aug 4, 2009 8:36 AM:

" Mazie, I would not try to stop you, as I am a Christian myself, and fully support (and encourage!) your right to pray anywhere you see fit. It's your tactics and vitriol with which I disagree. Not effective, not healthy, not in the mold of Jesus. It gives all of us Christians a bad name, and I hope to disassociate others of us with the way that you go about expressing your views. "

Mazie wrote on Aug 4, 2009 8:28 AM:

" But on the lighter side, Jack in the Box is offering free tacos today! "

Mazie wrote on Aug 4, 2009 8:27 AM:

" And i was offended when i went to the other website, for the atheists but i don't see them taking it down for me. I will be there for sure. One more thing: they may be able to take the prayers out of the CC meetings, but they will never ever be able to stop the citizens of Lodi from praying BEFORE the meetings on the steps of the meetings. TRY TO STOP US, SATAN! And Jrs LOL "

jrs wrote on Aug 4, 2009 8:22 AM:

" Mazie is ready to spill blood in the name of Jesus. "

Jenn H wrote on Aug 4, 2009 7:47 AM:

" Once again, Lodi is in the news and NOT in a good way. Another nut rolls into town and helps us look like idiots. If the City Council does not enforce its existing policy, there will be litigation and we will look like a village of fools. Religion has no place in government, so if there must be prayers, they must be neutral & nonspecific. Period.

I went to Klingenschmitt's website. It is filled with extremist views and hate speech. I was particularly offended by their campaign to urge Schwarzenegger to veto SB 572 which will at long last honor Harvey Milk.

Those whackjobs cannot be allowed to dictate what takes place in Lodi.

City Council Members: STICK TO YOUR POLICY AND DO NOT WAIVER. "

Mazie wrote on Aug 4, 2009 6:22 AM:

" I will be there to fight for Jesus. "

uncle stinky wrote on Aug 4, 2009 6:15 AM:

" Gordon James Klingenschmitt is a real scumbag. In the true definition of the word. "

wtf wrote on Aug 4, 2009 5:48 AM:

" As I've said before: tempest/teapot.

"We want Lodi to stick to its guns and allow religious freedom," [Klingenschmitt] said.

The irony of this guy's statement is that he wants "religious" freedom only as long as the religion practiced is his brand of religion....what about others?

Oh boy! Here we go again! LOL! "

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