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National groups prepared to head to court on council's prayer policy

By Maggie Creamer
News-Sentinel Staff Writer
Saturday, July 4, 2009 5:39 AM PDT

Comments (156 comment(s))

Starting from college, Annie Laurie Gaylor has made it her life's mission to remove displays of religion from public life.

So she founded the Madison, Wis.-based Freedom From Religion Foundation with her mother in 1978 as a resource for freethinkers — atheists and agnostics.

In May, Lodi received its first letter from the foundation, igniting a local debate about the use of Jesus Christ in invocations before council meetings.

If Lodi doesn't change its policy, legal action is likely, and the foundation believes there is a good chance it would win, Gaylor said.

"Other minority religions might be very small, but there is more variety than there used to be. They are being told by their city government they are not the right religion," Gaylor said. "They are told to stand, and bow their head when somebody prays to Jesus, and that's just bad manners."

At the same time, another national group, the American Defense Fund, has sent a letter saying the city's policy goes too far by stipulating that prayers should be non-sectarian.

"The content of prayer is not important as long as it is not proselytizing one religion," said Michael Johnson, senior legal counsel for the American Defense Fund.

Lodi's policy requires religious leaders to give "non-sectarian and non-denominational" invocations. But in the May letter, Gaylor's foundation said the prayers are in violation of the city's own policy because 39 out of 55 recent prayers contained the words "Jesus Christ." The group watched invocations online from 2007 through May 6.

Freedom From Religion Foundation by the numbers

Here are some of the revenue and expenses of the Freedom From Religion Foundation for 2008:
Total revenue for the year: $2.05 million
  • $619,320 in membership dues paid to the organization.
  • $1.033 million in other contributions.
  • $241,306 in income from the foundation's investments.
  • Income also came from the foundation's newspaper, convention income and sales of inventory.
  • The group also ended the year with $6.5 million in total assets, with a majority of that as savings and temporary cash investments.
    Total expenses for the year: $1.13 million
  • $156,477 in litigation, staff time and legal counsel to challenge government endorsements of religion.
  • $318,827 in salaries for the employees, including $69,354 for Annie Laurie Gaylor and $69,976 for Dan Barker, who are married and co-presidents of the organization. The foundation also pays previous founder Annie Nicol Gaylor as a consultant at $25,826.
  • $366,679 to host a convention, radio broadcasting, meetings, media appearances, speeches, travel and advertising.
  • $231,327 for the publishing and printing of newspapers, newsletters, books, brochures and pamphlets.
    Source: The foundation's 2008 990 tax form

    • The foundation prefers to settle the issue outside of court, Gaylor said, so it is waiting to see what the council decides. The meeting to consider the invocation policy is scheduled for Aug. 5.

    One of the main things that makes Lodi's case appealing is that it would be in the Ninth Circuit, Gaylor said, which has previously said some government-sponsored prayers are allowed as long as they are non-sectarian, non-denominational.

    She also said there are local people who would be willing to serve as plaintiffs in the case. She could not name them because of the foundation's confidentiality policy.

    If the city continues to allow prayers with Christian references, Gaylor said that it will be directly disregarding the foundation's concerns.

    "They've been warned and told not to do it," she said. "If they refuse, it means they want to promote religion through their city government."

    Both sides of the debate

    The national group has focused on a variety of public institutions in the more than 40 lawsuits it has filed since it formed in 1978.

    The national organization has grown to more than 13,000 members, with the majority living in California. It has six full-time employees (which will increase to eight in July) and a slew of volunteers and interns. At the end of 2008, it had $6.5 million in assets. It received money from investments, membership dues and contributions from supporters.

    Over the years, the foundation has challenged the New Hampshire Congress and three local school districts in the state for saying "under God" during the Pledge of Allegiance, succeeded in eliminating Good Friday as a state holiday in Wisconsin, and recently filed a suit in South Carolina against a school that gives academic credits for the time students are voluntarily released for religious instruction.

    The biggest pending case the group has is a challenge to the federal statute creating the National Day of Prayer. The lawsuit also includes challenges to the prayer proclamations that President Barack Obama, White House spokesman Robert Gibbs and Wisconsin Gov. Jim Doyle made for the day and the activities the National Day of Prayer Task Force organized, which is headed by Shirley Dobson.

    "We haven't specialized in any type of lawsuit," Gaylor said. "We take a wide variety of cases."

    On the other side, the American Defense Fund's team of lawyers often finds itself defending public institutions from prayer-based litigation.

    Citing the Supreme Court case Marsh v. Chambers — a case both opponents and proponents reference — public prayers evoking the name of Jesus Christ or any other deity are allowable, Johnson said.

    The case states that the content of a prayer is not a concern unless "the prayer opportunity has been exploited to proselytize or advance any one, or to disparage any other, faith or belief," Johnson quotes from the case in his letter.

    An example of a violation of March v. Chambers would be if the council made a policy where only religious leaders who referenced Jesus Christ were allowed to pray, Johnson said.

    The fund has offered to the city a copy of the prayer policy it has previously defended in court.

    The policy does not limit the content, except for asking leaders to not try converting attendees or criticize other faiths.

    It also essentially continues the city's rotation of religious leaders that the city clerk invites once a year. As opposed to relying on the list the city already has collected, staff would have to also add any religion listed in the YellowPages.

    If the city adopts the fund's prayer policy, the nonprofit will provide lawyers pro bono to fight any legal challenges. The fund, established in 1994, has 37 staff lawyers and another 1,200 nationwide available to provide free legal defense.

    'Put Lodi on the map'

    But the interest in this case is not confined to the groups who could battle it out in the courtroom.

    Groups in favor of prayers at public meetings will be at the August meeting to ask the City Council to continue to allow prayer.

    Wiley Drake, a Southern Baptist preacher who has a radio show on www.crusaderadio.com, said he is working "to put Lodi on the map," with Chaplain Gordon Klingenschmitt, of "In Jesus Name We Pray" and the Will of God Christian Center.

    The religious leaders want to organize an international prayer meeting at 6 p.m. before the council meeting. Drake said he will work with the city on permits to broadcast the event on his radio show, and also set up an international telephone number for people to call in and listen.

    Drake has encountered the Freedom From Religion Foundation and said the group bullies cities into compliance by threatening large, expensive lawsuits.

    "They thought Lodi is a little country town up in Northern California, and it would be great if we can make them an example of them, so that's why they are picking on Lodi," Drake said.

    He said the main aim of the prayer meeting ahead of time is to let the city know that citizens support them in keeping prayers that reference Jesus Christ.

    Contact reporter Maggie Creamer at maggiec@lodinews.com or read her blog at www.lodinews.com/blog/citybuzz.

    Reader Feedback

    snowridah wrote on Jul 17, 2009 9:30 PM:

    " I'm convinced that anyone who is stupid enough to repute 'science' as a whole has never learned anything about science. Also, save your breath about 'theories' like the Big Bang. If you understood anything about science, you would know that the community is just as interested in disproving the Big Bang as all the whiny Christians. Rational people don't think of theories as the ONE SINGLE EXPLANATION for something like most who read the Bible... A theory is simply the most educated guess based on all available information. This will be my final post in this thread as it is becoming clear most of you are retarded... "

    Report Abuse

    dogbark wrote on Jul 17, 2009 4:47 PM:

    " A fitting invocation: Lets us ever be mindful that,
    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, = let us vow today to be the goodly elected stewards of those that elected us. "

    Report Abuse

    Gator wrote on Jul 11, 2009 5:10 PM:

    " Well Bob we are all entitled to our opinions, if that is yours your welcome to it. We all know what opinions are like ??? "

    Report Abuse

    sven31 wrote on Jul 11, 2009 2:53 PM:

    " I would like to say at this point that I don't care if they pray before public meetings or during or after either. If they do, in what ever religion it is, I don't care either. I don't care if you believe in God or not. Your believing in God and praying don't effect me. I have and am employed at least part time with an advanced science degree. I like proof, but understand that many rely on the word of God as their proof. I couldn't care less. It doesn't threaten me.

    I do obviously get annoyed at some posters denigrating others by calling them names simply because they disagree with their view. It is the very weakness in their position that requires that they quickly focus attention away from their issue because they know their position and arguments are weak. "

    Report Abuse

    Bob Hussein Loblaw wrote on Jul 11, 2009 10:50 AM:

    " If that was your point, you sure have an incoherent, rambling, non sequitur way of getting to it. "

    Report Abuse

    Gator wrote on Jul 11, 2009 9:30 AM:

    " You guys are truly a piece of work. You throw Conservative around like a
    dirty word the same goes for the other side they associate Liberal with
    Communist. My point Bob old boy is the country is as Centrist as it can
    get and has little time for either the radical left or right…The way I see it
    personally, both disgust me.. They are a bunch of cynics , whiners and
    complainers who contribute little to society… "

    Report Abuse

    sven31 wrote on Jul 10, 2009 6:57 PM:

    " stantaves:
    I don't need your concession. I new I was winning before my fingers hit the keyboard.
    Go back to your bottle(s). "

    Report Abuse

    sven31 wrote on Jul 10, 2009 6:51 PM:

    " In closing, I'll bet he doesn't even go through getting a glass. He just unscrews the bottle and bottoms up!!

    And what's up with the Chinatown references? Fondly remembering a trip to Thailand maybe? "

    Report Abuse

    Bob Hussein Loblaw wrote on Jul 10, 2009 4:47 PM:

    " There you go, proving it again Gator. You really don't see sven's point, do you? You must have an LUSD reading comprehension education.

    Read sven's post again and try to understand. If I give you the answers, then what have you really learned? "

    Report Abuse

    Gator wrote on Jul 10, 2009 4:37 PM:

    " Well Bob Ol Boy I presume your addressing my 2:54 PM post, how nice
    well you tell me where I proved sven31’s point.. Every thing I said was
    direct and to the point and polite. So if you don’t know anyone who has
    gone beyond and came back and said hey it’s not there or on the flip side it’s there, man you should see it.. all anyone has is a gut feeling, no one knows
    that’s not to deep for you is it Bob. As for Zawahiri’s remark don’t sell those
    People short. Most Democracy’s have failed around the 200 year mark that
    means the good Old US is living on barrowed time.. So Bob don’t whiz on my foot and tell me it’s raining… "

    Report Abuse

    stantaves wrote on Jul 10, 2009 3:45 PM:

    " So you want to debate? Well, make an argument other than "you're wrong stantaves" and maybe we could make that happen. This idea about debating the existence or non-existence of God is fools play. All that I've ever tried to offer is the concept that one can not have an idea about what comes "after" time, until one has an idea about what came "before" time. The atheist says, "why bother?" And I say , "because your happiness depends on it". The athiest stomps the ground and says, "I'm happy, and if you don't shut-up...". I then, sensing things are getting a little hot, say, "Yes, but not as happy as you could be". The atheist then says, "You can't know that". And I say, "Yes, I can". You see sven, there is no winning this argument; but you just want to claim victory anyway. Okay sven, You're a winner; you really are. "

    Report Abuse

    Bob Hussein Loblaw wrote on Jul 10, 2009 3:34 PM:

    " sven, don't you love it when the poster right after you proves your point perfectly? "

    Report Abuse

    Gator wrote on Jul 10, 2009 2:54 PM:

    " Scientist and engineers are peas from the same pod, they engineer it then it’s
    right because they say it is. The same goes for the scientist if it comes from
    their lab it’s right and good for mankind.. To both I say Horse S***!!! There
    have been catastrophic mistakes in booth fields that have caused grievous harm to many people. .Like engineering there is no exact Science. If it works then it was a scientific breakthrough if it was a flop it will never be heard from again. By the way I’m what some call a Truman Democrat and as far from being a conservative as you can be.. But I believe the Bull S***
    Stops here. If I choose to believe in a greater power that is my right as it’s
    yours to not believe. I tend to hedge my bet.. Americas greatest enemy Dr.
    Ayman al Zawahiri put out a threat to America “Convert to Islam or die.”
    that should give the atheist in the crowd something to ponder.. The Good
    Doctor wasn’t joking and he isn’t going away any time soon… "

    Report Abuse

    sven31 wrote on Jul 10, 2009 2:17 PM:

    " Typical of the conservative side of thought, stantaves' arguments or posts or writings, what ever you want to call them, are shallow on substance and so thin you can actually see the fear in their eyes as they realize they are being beat. Like an animal that is cornered by a predator, they quickly offer their jugular via what they think are "clever" remarks, name calling, rambling, being cute and making incoherent statements, all the while knowing that the end is soon upon them rather than standing toe to toe with their adversary and debate on rational terms.

    Do you guys ever wonder what a conservative does as they get old? They sit and complain about everything on the tv, the radio, the newspaper, and/or anything else that reveals how narrow and dark their existence has become.

    So very sad. "

    Report Abuse

    stantaves wrote on Jul 10, 2009 10:15 AM:

    " I think I want a pseudonym; any suggestions? "

    Report Abuse

    stantaves wrote on Jul 10, 2009 9:47 AM:

    " Cont: The athiest returns with "you can't make me believe in your silly God". And that is the absolute truth -- nor should any one try. The point is that this is not about science; it's about how any image of Christ makes your skin crawl. You people will not stop with Lodi CC, because for you it can not end until Christ is gone -- even if it's someones personal symbol visable from the street. You're pathetic; snap out of it! "

    Report Abuse

    stantaves wrote on Jul 10, 2009 9:31 AM:

    " Are you really eligible to vote? Go back; read my posts? Why don't you get specific? Look in this thread so far, I've stated that Lodi CC can, and probably should, take the invocation of Christ out of the prayer. That said, I probably went on to say that the "haters" should butt-out -- knowing all along of that impossibility. The thing then morphed into a theist vs atheist battleground. Enter Callasus, the Godless warlord from Fresno; bringing therories and conjecture -- and of course "hope" to the weak and whining. Callasus throws a ball of fire called the "big bang" the fans gaze on with intent as they all watch it disintegrate into a thousand pieces. You see the problem with the atheist argument is that it pretends to not care about God, when all it does is care about God. The fact is that you can not "prove" the unprovable; and Callasus knows that -- and so he's gone. Yes, it is true that when discussing the origins of the universe I tend towards philosophical arguments; but that does not mean I don't find a "big bang" plausible; it just doesn't explain what came before. God does. "

    Report Abuse

    voter wrote on Jul 10, 2009 8:45 AM:

    " Stan, no one "resents" your style. Many tried to tell you this yesterday--go back, look at the posts. Reading your chest-beating, anti-intellectual rants is like watching the Little Red Choo Choo happily and confidently chug over a cliff. "

    Report Abuse

    stantaves wrote on Jul 10, 2009 8:11 AM:

    " Gator, you're good -- except when I disagree with you. "

    Report Abuse

    stantaves wrote on Jul 10, 2009 8:09 AM:

    " sven, oh sven -- aren't you 32 yet? -- So, I'm not used to debating with pseudonyms; aint that too bad? Yes, the internet is filled with 0's and 1's; and what are you sven? Listen son, you muster up the guts to ask me a coherent question regarding any post of mine, and you will actually get an answer that should teach you something -- if that "big bang" going off in your head doesn't take what little brain you have left. "

    Report Abuse

    Gator wrote on Jul 10, 2009 7:53 AM:

    " When science has brought about a complete cure for Aids and all forms of
    Cancer you might get my attention until then your argument is no better than mine.. No one has to church to know that there is something going on
    other than pure luck. If science is the end all be all with the super Computers, the money and the thousands of scientist they should have accomplished this by now. Here is another project for the world of science
    why by now hasn’t someone perfected a perpetual motion machine, Not a
    toy but a workable useful machine. Or a workable power cell that can power
    a house with clean energy and be off the power grid. When I went to work
    For PG&E back in 62 we were told it was just around the corner, still waiting!!! "

    Report Abuse

    stantaves wrote on Jul 10, 2009 7:12 AM:

    " They all showed up with proof one day; in a big brown bag, but I said "no way!" "Let me see what you've got in there"; "It's the "big bang" baby, and you'd better beware". "But that sounds crazy, can't you show it to me?" "sorry not yet, it's not ready". So I grabbed their bag, and I looked inside; as they scattered like roaches trying to hide. "Come back", I said, "there's nothing to fear; it's only some twinkies, that's all that's in here". "

    Report Abuse

    stantaves wrote on Jul 10, 2009 6:37 AM:

    " Science is good. Now If you haters can use science to prove the non-existence of God; then I will be the 1st guy to ask for it. Yes the "big bang" is for "big idiots" as far as I'm concerned. I know there are some of you out there who deeply resent my style -- spent a little time in Chinatown, eh? -- I'm just trying to bring something a little different. If you would like me to leave the LNS blog submit your request, supported with reasonable justification, and I will respond in kind; If not, then go back and work on your "Cantonese". "

    Report Abuse

    sven31 wrote on Jul 9, 2009 10:01 PM:

    " Continued:
    Many people doing this through hearsay and sharing the results would cause the accepted position that "antibiotics cure the common cold". In reality there are mountains of evidence (produced by thousands of experiments) proving that antibiotics have no effect on viruses. Combine this with the knowledge that if you take nothing at all, your cold goes away in a couple of days. Experiments show that taking antibiotics do nothing for a cold. People get better in a couple days, not because they took antibiotics but because the body's immune system kicked in and finally overwhelmed the rhino viruses by producing antibodies against it.

    The goal of science is to discover the truth. Using a standardized protocol insures that the results using that standardized protocol are in fact, the truth. The "truth" can be tested using that standardized protocol by many others who will reach the same conclusion. This is what we call science.

    Any other process would be just comparing notes or memories. Untested or challanged memories. "

    Report Abuse

    sven31 wrote on Jul 9, 2009 9:50 PM:

    " Gator: "Science can
    be used to stifle someone by presenting an overwhelming argument against
    Theirs with mind numbing facts and figures as the undisputed Truth..."

    We call those "mind numbing facts and figures" "evidence" which we then use to support our position. To call it "undisputed truth" is the oxymoron. Truth is disputed daily. Should an experiment using the same procedures result in a conclusion other than that which has been accepted would require significant re-testing. This results in what you might call "undisputed truth".
    Scientists call it truth.

    The alternative test would be nothing more than a string of anecdotes spliced together as evidence of a "truth". More importantly, the anecdotal results that are counter to the new anecdotal "truth" would be disregarded for any of a number of reasons.

    An example would be taking antibiotics for a rhino virus (common cold). Many will claim that their condition improved as the result of taking anitbiotics. Others would concur and offer their unscientific results... "yes, I got better much faster" "

    Report Abuse

    voter wrote on Jul 9, 2009 8:44 PM:

    " You clearly have no concept of the scientific method, Gator. "

    Report Abuse

    Gator wrote on Jul 9, 2009 8:39 PM:

    " Science, even exact Science is a group or some ones Theory and is regarded as fact till proven wrong, which is done a great deal of the time. Science can
    be used to stifle someone by presenting an overwhelming argument against
    Theirs with mind numbing facts and figures as the undisputed Truth, which
    in a lot of cases couldn’t be further from it…Exact Science that my friend is
    an oxymoron!! A lot of good guesses and luck, aka as a crap shoot… "

    Report Abuse

    sven31 wrote on Jul 9, 2009 7:20 PM:

    " Particular poster: Here's how it goes.
    The rational, normal poster makes a statement that, like them, is rational and logical. You respond using what you think is your best retort: dumb statements and name calling. We, in turn, are able to make fun of you because you don't know we're doing it, this doesn't stop you because you continue to blabber on and on, all the time begging us to believe you, to "trust" you that probably works in the general population but doesn't make the grade here. You're in over your head, out of your weight class, and not on the varsity yet so stop acting like your opinion is valued by us. It's not. "

    Report Abuse

    sven31 wrote on Jul 9, 2009 7:13 PM:

    " Ooh, I see the animal house character is taking a beating in the later posts. "

    Report Abuse

    sven31 wrote on Jul 9, 2009 7:12 PM:

    " Calladus:
    Doesn't it make it so easy to disregard those who disagree with you, who come off as some sort of learned man (as it were), when their best rebuttal takes the form of:
    "what are you some, kind-of a big idiot"?
    I think snowridah said it best when he said: "... your posts don't make any sense... "
    So Calladus, if I may do some editing, it goes like this when addressing this particular poster: here'e how it goes: 1st, you take your best shot, then I (the particular poster), call you names and then try to put together some big words and gibberish hoping you (and everyone else) will think I (the particular poster) am a knowledigable and talented debater, hoping no one probably smarter than I (the particular poster) will call me on it, which if it does happen, I'll fall back into my "animal house character" (the one with the tape holding his glasses together (if you're familiar with the movie you'll know who it is) and unleash more names. "

    Report Abuse

    sam wrote on Jul 9, 2009 6:55 PM:

    " time out...


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_UxhPbMyy8 "

    Report Abuse

    Bob Hussein Loblaw wrote on Jul 9, 2009 6:42 PM:

    " You are so right jeff, but you can have fun with it! "

    Report Abuse

    jeff wrote on Jul 9, 2009 5:46 PM:

    " hey Bob, you can't fix stupid. nor can you argue with it. "

    Report Abuse

    Bob Hussein Loblaw wrote on Jul 9, 2009 5:46 PM:

    " stanraves, it is the ignorant, close-minded bloggers like you who discourage intelligent, thoughtful debate because those thoughtful, intelligent bloggers, don't want to debate with someone so obtuse.

    I prefer stooping to your level because it is fun, and it is so much easier for you to understand and relate to.

    Nothing is more entertaining than watching fools like you try to defend ghost stories and fairy tales, then try to convince others to believe in the same nonsense. Blog on stanraves! "

    Report Abuse

    jeff wrote on Jul 9, 2009 5:45 PM:

    " stantaves: 'I'm invincible!'

    calladus: 'You're a looney.' "

    Report Abuse

    stantaves wrote on Jul 9, 2009 5:08 PM:

    " Bob, don't think for one minute that I need to go chasing. I offered to explain the sybiotic nature between "meaning and purpose" and he got scared because he had absolutely no point of reference to fall upon. I know you have a new hero in Calladus -- why don't you go to his "God hater" blog, and party down all day dude? "

    Report Abuse

    sam wrote on Jul 9, 2009 5:04 PM:

    " Calladus, I appreciate your blogs. No name calling, no insults, just facts and logic. Stick around. You are a great read. "

    Report Abuse

    Brian wrote on Jul 9, 2009 4:59 PM:

    " Calladus wrote:

    Do you believe the world was created on October 23, 4004 B.C., at 9AM; and that the entire universe with all it's stars were created "in transit"?

    -Not at all. I believe as you do except for I believe there is a
    God. I have issues with Christian Fundamentalists. They don't believe in evolution. I had an Uncle who was a very intelligent man until he told me
    cactuses were always cactuses and there is no such thing as evolution. "

    Report Abuse

    Bob Hussein Loblaw wrote on Jul 9, 2009 4:43 PM:

    " It's simple stanraves -- his argument is logic-based, yours is faith-based. calladus = science, stanraves = fairy tales.

    If you think he's hiding, here is his website: http://calladus.blogspot.com/.

    Good luck, you're gonna need it. "

    Report Abuse

    stantaves wrote on Jul 9, 2009 4:36 PM:

    " Oh no! Calladus has Bob on his side -- how will I ever counter now? Help me out here Bob; what "logic and reason" were you refering to? The demand for proof of a philosophical argument, or the part where he runs and hides. "

    Report Abuse

    Bob Hussein Loblaw wrote on Jul 9, 2009 3:02 PM:

    " stantaves, you should stop because you are embarrassing yourself. All that logic and reason from calladus has you grasping at straws. Maybe you should pray to your god for some help here. "

    Report Abuse

    stantaves wrote on Jul 9, 2009 2:03 PM:

    " Oh c'mon, don't run and hide, just because getting spanked out the park hurts a little -- whatever, I hear Cantonese is one of the favored dialects. "

    Report Abuse

    calladus wrote on Jul 9, 2009 1:33 PM:

    " Sorry stantaves, I don't ride anywhere in ratty old Hugos. Get back to me when you upgrade to a luxury Limo.

    You believe because you've based your belief on faith. That's great. I'll admit I can't touch that, nor would I bother.

    But when you try to support your blind faith with reality or logic, you're building a castle out of fog and mirrors.

    Your problem, Sir Black Knight, is that I've already cut your arms and legs off, and you lack the ability to see that.

    Now you sit there and yell about your victory like a good boy. I'll ride away and leave you bleeding. If you want me, use google.

    It's been fun guys, but I can't argue with stupid. "

    Report Abuse

    stantaves wrote on Jul 9, 2009 1:05 PM:

    " Calladus -- got the spelling right this time -- you seem new around here, so here'e how it goes: 1st, you take your best shot, then I take you downtown -- that's right -- all the way to Chinatown, where you either stay and take up a second language -- which is always good -- or you come limping back for another try. It's all good! As for your "proof" thing? the whole essence of a "belief system" (or faith) is that it denecessitates proof. Now, you are more than welcome to build a philosophical house of cards upon your empirical foundation, but that will limit you. I know you don't think so -- whatever. You see Calladus, I don't need, nor want, to prove anything to a non-believer; I just want to help if I can. "

    Report Abuse

    calladus wrote on Jul 9, 2009 10:17 AM:

    " Why would it be silly for me to ask for the same thing that St. Thomas asked for and received? "

    Report Abuse

    stantaves wrote on Jul 9, 2009 10:13 AM:

    " Proof Calludus? Now you're just being silly. Why on earth would I make an attempt at that? "Belief" is something that you'll need to do for yourself; clearly you are in no way prepared to do that. Hey,that's okay, life goes on -- 'til you're dead, right? That said, you should read a post I wrote -- for Billy I think -- regarding a conversation I had with an atheist friend of mine. Maybe that will be helpful. Or maybe I could explain the symbiotic nature between God and man, or "meaning and purpose" if you will. "

    Report Abuse

    calladus wrote on Jul 9, 2009 9:23 AM:

    " stantaves, I'll gladly change my mind if you can prove to me that your God exists.

    But I require evidence. Not this new age feels good mumbo-jumbo about thought existing before time and God existing outside of dimension. How can you prove that? "

    Report Abuse

    stantaves wrote on Jul 9, 2009 9:13 AM:

    " Jeff, a "belief system" needs God. There are differnt names for God, but for myself "God" fits because it is analogous to the ultimate "good". "

    Report Abuse

    stantaves wrote on Jul 9, 2009 9:03 AM:

    " Now for you Calludus. Big bang? what are you some, kind-of a big idiot. Don't you understand that your "little" theory merely attempts to dimensionalize that which has no dimension -- or is extra-dimensional as it were. Science is about building knowledge, but the knowledge, being dimensional, can never be perfect. Try to look at it this way: Before time there was only "thought" and the thought was "good"; that is not to say that the advent of time, and all that come with it, is bad, or even less than "good"; it is only to say that these "things" can never be "good". In other words, there is one thing that can never be dimensionalized, and that "thing" we call God. It seems pretty clear that you don't want to go "there" -- hey! good luck with that. "

    Report Abuse

    jeff wrote on Jul 9, 2009 8:40 AM:

    " what do you classify as a "belief system"? "

    Report Abuse

    stantaves wrote on Jul 9, 2009 8:37 AM:

    " Voter, I was wondering when you would poke your head out. Here's how it goes: It is not logical to assume that elements of "construct" can come together without being preceded by "thought". Trust me, I clearly understand your dissatifaction with traditional explanations (fundamentalism as it were); however, it is only through a "belief system" that one can insure his or her own immortaliy. If you know of another way; it would be nice for you to share. "

    Report Abuse

    jeff wrote on Jul 9, 2009 8:19 AM:

    " tanner, because your "make believe" has no business guiding our community government decisions. "

    Report Abuse

    voter wrote on Jul 9, 2009 8:10 AM:

    " I've browsed your blog in the past. It came up one day when I was doing a Google search. You have some intelligent arguments. "

    Report Abuse

    Calladus wrote on Jul 9, 2009 8:01 AM:

    " Voter, yes that's me. "

    Report Abuse

    tanner b wrote on Jul 9, 2009 8:00 AM:

    " so many people afraid of the word jesus or god, wonder why? if its all make believe to you then why would you even care? deep down you know theres somethin 2 it "

    Report Abuse

    voter wrote on Jul 9, 2009 7:03 AM:

    " Calladus, are you the person in Fresno who writes "The Calladus Blog"? "

    Report Abuse

    Calladus wrote on Jul 8, 2009 11:21 PM:

    " Lodian, why do both? "

    Report Abuse

    Calladus wrote on Jul 8, 2009 11:08 PM:

    " Brian, I believe that multiple lines of evidence easily support the conclusion that the Earth is 4.54 billion years old (give or take 50 million years). And the evidence that we live in a universe that is 13.7 billion years old (give or take 200 million years) is pretty darned conclusive to anyone who bothers to examine the evidence.

    It's awesome to realize that the photons that hit our eyes when we gaze at distant galaxies were formed in stars a hundred million years ago, and that bananas are ever so slightly radioactive due to the potassium that they contain being formed inside of a Supernova. The enormous amount of time required for stellar nucleosynthesis is humbling and awe inspiring.

    What happened prior to the Big Bang is anyone's guess at this point. No one has evidence for any theory. I'd love to know how we finally figure that out.

    Do you believe the world was created on October 23, 4004 B.C., at 9AM; and that the entire universe with all it's stars were created "in transit"? "

    Report Abuse

    Brian wrote on Jul 8, 2009 10:30 PM:

    " Lodian,

    I'm glad you and I agree that prayer works.

    Have a nice evening :)

    PS, I do have O negative blood. I am a universal donor. Thanks for reminding me that I should donate blood. "

    Report Abuse

    Lodian wrote on Jul 8, 2009 10:20 PM:

    " Calladus wrote "I'll tell you what... you pray, and I'll donate blood."

    Do both. "

    Report Abuse

    Brian wrote on Jul 8, 2009 10:10 PM:

    " Calladus,

    Do you also deny intelligent design? "

    Report Abuse

    Calladus wrote on Jul 8, 2009 9:34 PM:

    " Brian, it's not up to me to prove that prayer does not work. The burden of proof rests upon the claimant.

    Can you give me iron-clad evidence that prayer works? Not some anecdotal friend of a friend evidence, but something verifiable?

    I'll tell you what... you pray, and I'll donate blood. You want to bet on who saves a life first? "

    Report Abuse

    Brian wrote on Jul 8, 2009 6:57 PM:

    " Calladus
    You belong to avery small group of anal-retentive, scholarly types who are pissed off because the term "begs the question" has been bastardized.

    I wasn't aware of how it should be properly used. As for you insinuation that I have poor reasoning skills;
    What does that have anything to do with me using the term improperly?

    And what other feeble examples are you going to give us that prayer doesn't work? "

    Report Abuse

    calladus wrote on Jul 8, 2009 4:47 PM:

    " Gator, I'm a vet. I've got a couple of atheist friends who are active duty.

    You might want to look up the Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers before saying more.

    The Freethought Firefighters are another great organization of people you would probably defame. "

    Report Abuse

    calladus wrote on Jul 8, 2009 4:32 PM:

    " Mazie, I have an Islamic friend who doesn't believe in Christians. He is absolutely sure that there will be a day when someone like you, calling for your Christian god and getting no answer, will finally break down and call Allah's name and find the one true salvation.

    Because you know, (according to him) that in your heart, Allah is the one true God and that Jesus as the son of god is a lie.

    He feels sorry for people like you, and prays for you. "

    Report Abuse

    calladus wrote on Jul 8, 2009 4:24 PM:

    " Brian, the term "begging the question" is used to describe a type of logical fallacy related to circular reasoning. Your usage would seem to be ironically incorrect and indicative of poor reasoning skills.

    But I'll answer your question with one of my own. Does prayer work? Or does it just make you feel better about the circumstances you find yourself in?

    Just as a test - the Wiley Drake guy in this article announced two different calls for "Imprecatory Prayer" - where he prayed for God's wrath to rain down on Americans United and President Obama.

    Mr. Drake prayed for Obama to die.

    Very Christian of him, and a great demonstration of the true power of prayer. "

    Report Abuse

    voter wrote on Jul 8, 2009 2:23 PM:

    " stantaves wrote on Jul 8, 2009 8:00 AM:
    " "Non-belief" is devoid of logic."

    Are you serious? Logic is at the core of atheism, agnosticism, and liberal monotheistic faiths. They reject fundamentalism because it is NOT logical.

    You believe in talking snakes and you call non-believers illogical? LOL "

    Report Abuse

    stantaves wrote on Jul 8, 2009 2:09 PM:

    " Of course they don't Snowridah -- to you; that's why you need to start asking the right questions. "

    Report Abuse

    Bob Hussein Loblaw wrote on Jul 8, 2009 12:33 PM:

    " At the start of all this, I didn't really care one way or the other, but after reading the vitriol and utter ignorance coming from the prayer supporters, I hope Ms. Gaylor and her group make the CC cry and then mops the floor with their tears. "

    Report Abuse

    Robb wrote on Jul 8, 2009 11:02 AM:

    " Seriously??, are you freaking kidding me right now?? "

    Report Abuse

    snowridah wrote on Jul 8, 2009 10:10 AM:

    " Stantaves, your posts don't make any sense... "

    Report Abuse

    stantaves wrote on Jul 8, 2009 9:58 AM:

    " Snowridah, I think you have enough "fake" stuff already. I can tell what is logical about a belief system, however. "

    Report Abuse

    snowridah wrote on Jul 8, 2009 9:31 AM:

    " I'm not seeking forgiveness... I live my life by my own morals, and am very confident that I am a good person. When I do something wrong, I feel guilt, and I make it right. Praying for forgiveness really just seems like the easy way out. "

    Report Abuse

    Mazie wrote on Jul 8, 2009 9:15 AM:

    " snowridah: but narrow minded people don't seem to bother you. All you need to do is to accept the Lord into your heart and ask for forgiveness. He will do the rest. "

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    Mazie wrote on Jul 8, 2009 9:14 AM:

    " snowridah: i have just added you to my list of people i want to pray for. I pray that God will forgive you and for you to one day see and walk in the light of the Lord.
    God forgive you all. "

    Report Abuse

    Gator wrote on Jul 8, 2009 9:06 AM:

    " I’ve known a lot of Grunt’s in my life time, Marine and Army and when the S*** hit the fan they all, each and every one were talking to the man, big time..Oh remember don’t eat the yellow Snow snowridah… "

    Report Abuse

    snowridah wrote on Jul 8, 2009 8:47 AM:

    " I wish... It'll be at least another 5 months until I'm making some turns again... You have a fake snow machine I can borrow? "

    Report Abuse

    stantaves wrote on Jul 8, 2009 8:43 AM:

    " Snowridah, you must be caught in blizzard or something -- I can help if you want. "

    Report Abuse

    snowridah wrote on Jul 8, 2009 8:26 AM:

    " Did I not just mention I frown upon close-minded people? Seemed pretty clear... "

    Report Abuse

    Brian wrote on Jul 8, 2009 8:20 AM:

    " snowridah wrote on Jul 8, 2009 8:13 AM:

    " To Mazie:
    If there is a God, it seems as though he would judge your close-mindedness and arrogance in a pretty bad light. Maybe you should pray for some guidance... "

    -God granted us the ability to be free thinkers. Unlike so many humans who want us to think a certain way or else. "

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    snowridah wrote on Jul 8, 2009 8:13 AM:

    " To Mazie:
    If there is a God, it seems as though he would judge your close-mindedness and arrogance in a pretty bad light. Maybe you should pray for some guidance... "

    Report Abuse

    snowridah wrote on Jul 8, 2009 8:12 AM:

    " I love how quickly this conversation deviates from the basic topic when the non-Christians make points that you can't rebuff. Too many Christians proselytize with the ASSUMPTION that they are correct, and the mindset that they are enlightening us ignorant folks... How would you like it if I showed up at your doorstep with my physics book and asked to speak to you about how the universe was really created? "

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    stantaves wrote on Jul 8, 2009 8:00 AM:

    " "Non-belief" is devoid of logic. Now if that is what you want to call "free-thinking", then you've just thought yourself into a very black hole -- Don't worry though there is always a "believer" close by who can hear your cries. "

    Report Abuse

    Mazie wrote on Jul 8, 2009 8:00 AM:

    " I can picture this: the first time someting major goes wrong in Calladus' life (by major I am talking loss of a child for instance) the first thing he/she would do is to cry out to God, like so many others who claim to be athiests. I don't believe in athiests. Give them the right situation and they bow to God. Deny it all you want. "

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    Brian wrote on Jul 8, 2009 7:49 AM:

    " I'm sure Calladus would also deny that the many religious friends he has that pray for him on a daily basis has kept him safe from harm. "

    Report Abuse

    Brian wrote on Jul 8, 2009 7:46 AM:

    " Calladus wrote:
    But we're tired of the lies and discrimination against us.

    -I doubt Atheists have had nearly as many lies and discrimination against them as religious people. Please spare us your bleeding heart. "

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    Brian wrote on Jul 8, 2009 7:39 AM:

    " Calladus wrote:

    You want to pray for us?

    -We will. But you are a non-believer.
    And this begs the question:

    If someone prays for you and the prayer works how can you then still deny the miracle of prayer? "

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    Calladus wrote on Jul 7, 2009 10:52 AM:

    " The Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers would disagree with the "prayers in foxholes" comment.

    Non-believers are not a "small minority". According to the Religious Identity Survey at CUNY, over 14% of Americans are non-religious. If they were a religious denomination, they'd be the third largest denomination in America, and would outnumber all the Methodists, Lutherans, Presbyterians and Pentecostals combined.

    Did anyone here even bother to spend a second researching the FFRF? Even Ms. Creamer, the writer of this article missed it. Dan Barker, husband to Annie Laurie Gaylor, is an ordained evangelical preacher with a degree in theology. This destroys the misconception that atheists weren't raised in "God fearing/loving environment"

    And this is not so uncommon. Most nonbelievers in America were raised Christian. Many, including myself, were active in the Church and devout believers.

    Non-believers are in our government and military. We are your coworkers. We may even be members of your church or family.

    You want to pray for us? Fine. But we're tired of the lies and discrimination against us.

    Stop that. "

    Report Abuse

    Mazie wrote on Jul 7, 2009 7:26 AM:

    " IMHO, It is a parent's responsibility to teach their kids about God and to love and trust God. As parents, we owe our children that much. The greatest gift is knowing we have helped to provide eternal life for our kids, through Jesus Christ, our Lord. And that one day we will be reunited with them. "

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    Mazie wrote on Jul 7, 2009 7:20 AM:

    " Dogs: i certainly did not mean to upset you in any way. I just feel that when you are raised in a God fearing/loving environment that is the way you grow up. It is good to grow up with God in your life. It is good to believe in something and someone good. It is good to have faith that when you leave this world, you will go to a better place. I lost my mom a year ago and if i did not believe that she is now with God, I would have lost my mind completely. "

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    Mazie wrote on Jul 7, 2009 7:05 AM:

    " I will still continue to pray for all non believers. I believe something will happen to make you cry out to God. And He will be there for you. Remember that God loves you and Jesus died for your sins. "

    Report Abuse

    Contrapasso wrote on Jul 6, 2009 10:02 PM:

    " Just because a small minority is offended by something is not a reason to give up the principles upon which this country was founded. "

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    Contrapasso wrote on Jul 6, 2009 10:00 PM:

    " Nauseating....the nation was founded on Christian principles....people like this woman need to get a life. "

    Report Abuse

    peppier2 wrote on Jul 6, 2009 8:33 PM:

    " Gator--I agree with you. There never was anyone in a fox hole that didn't offer a prayer. "

    Report Abuse

    Gator wrote on Jul 6, 2009 8:02 PM:

    " A combat medic once said you hear amongst the screams and moaning Besides “MEDIC” it’s come out loud and clear Mommy, Mom, Mother
    and “Oh God” And from one of this Country’s enemies Ayman al Zawahiri
    Covert to Islam or Die… Just some thoughts to ponder in your free time!!! "

    Report Abuse

    pork chop wrote on Jul 6, 2009 7:16 PM:

    " Annie Laurie Gaylor is the Devil!!!!!!!!!!!!!! "

    Report Abuse

    Calladus wrote on Jul 6, 2009 6:16 PM:

    " Secular Americans, and Americans who happen to hold a religion different than Christianity, don't care how you privately express your religion.

    You want to pray? Go ahead. You want the Nativity Scene on your front lawn or on the lawn of your church - be my guest. You want to pray in school - have at it.

    What we object to is when you presume to speak for us. And that is what you are doing when you use a Christian religious incantation as part of a city council invocation.

    It's presumptuous. It's arrogant. It's also a very Christian thing to do.

    Equating atheism, or even equal treatment with "Communism" is such a McCarthy-ist thing. Claiming that Christianity unifies culture is laughable.

    The fundamental rights of all Americans guaranteed in our Constitution don't come from God, religion or "the government". They come from us, "We the People...".

    The amount of vicious religious paranoia displayed in these comments is frightening.

    I feel sorry for those people who place so much blind faith into the unprovable that they ignore history and reality. "

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    snowridah wrote on Jul 6, 2009 6:15 PM:

    " I'd like to add:

    No one is trying to take the crosses off your church, the cross off of your necklace, etc. The issue involves CHURCH in a GOVERNMENT building. The law allows citizens to worship in any manner they choose. You can stand on the corner of a public street and cite quotations from the Bible, or the Koran, or the Torah, and no one can stop you. You can wear a shirt that says "I LOVE JESUS, SO F*CK YOU", and no one can stop you. But the best part about our country is that we aren't all the same. Because we are all different, things funded by the government, or any public entity, must respect EVERYONE. No one is disrespecting your religion by removing it from the city council, they are respecting everyone else's beliefs. Maybe all these people like Mazie should take a 10 minute break from reading the Bible and pick up a copy of the constitution... Remember that YOU are a Christian. WE ALL are Americans. "

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    snowridah wrote on Jul 6, 2009 5:56 PM:

    " First I would like to second everything Calludus said. He covered everything i wanted to. The bottom line is that government and religion should not mix, even if it is a small town city council. There are large numbers of non-christian worshipers and agnostics/atheists (like me) in Lodi. We should never be subject to ANY form of religious proceedings in ANY government building.

    And to Giovanna: 'the last true unifying cultural factor' that ties us all together is that we're AMERICANS. We can all worship however we choose, and shouldn't be held to the standards of any religious beliefs. Laws should reflect common sense and morality, not the Bible... And it might be hard for you to believe, but plenty of people who don't believe in God have high moral standards... "

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    SJUNE74 wrote on Jul 6, 2009 5:43 PM:

    " Can't keep a good man down(Christ Jesus) He rose from the Grave!!!
    Pray for those who dispitely use you or(Groups)!!! "

    Report Abuse

    Robb wrote on Jul 6, 2009 5:18 PM:

    " My parents are Baptist... Nuff-said..
    I feel sorry for people who place faith in anything outside of themselves, there is Nothing that I cannot achieve.. "

    Report Abuse

    Giovanina wrote on Jul 6, 2009 3:37 PM:

    " Equality? equity? or trying to make every town and state, in this nation, clones of a non-religious culture. This is why each town and state have different laws, because they have a majority of people of a particular culture or subculture.

    This is like going to specific towns in South Los Angeles and demanding them to all speak English..lol that isn't going to happen.

    This is just a new form of communism, trying to eliminate god and replace it with government. We don't get our fundamental rights from governemnt. Our laws and institutions are based on religion.

    Taking religion out of history and our institutions is likesaying that carbon is bad so we are going to eliminate all carbon.

    The reality is that, due to all this multiculturalism, Christianity is the last true unifying cultural factor left, in the U.S., that goes across all cultural lines. Government can't take ultimate power unless religion, as a unifying factor, is stopped.

    If you look at all the organization's sponsors, they will probably be tied to others with the same agenda. George Soros or someone. "

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    Bob Hussein Loblaw wrote on Jul 6, 2009 1:54 PM:

    " Calladus: Amen! "

    Report Abuse

    Calladus wrote on Jul 6, 2009 1:45 PM:

    " The ultra religious people in these comments are both hilarious and scary.

    First, the article is incorrect. The FFRF doesn't want to remove displays of religion from public life... they just want to enforce the neutrality of our government toward religion. You want an invocation? Fine - it must include ALL Americans, not just that subset that believes in a particular god.

    I find it absolutely amazing how many good Christians are extremely offended at the mere existence of atheists and their desire to be treated on equal grounds with Christians.

    Isn't it amazing? Christ is praised on millions of billboards, churches, car bumpers, and other venues - and when one organization asks one small town to "cool it" and follow the US Constitution, well, that's an OUTRAGE! Let's PICKET THEIR SPONSORS!

    Face it, the FFRF doesn't even have the same level of funding as one of the thousands of Christian mega-churches in the USA, and yet you are already building the bunkers and loading your guns.

    That is a petty, pathetic attitude, and it is definitely NOT very Christian. "

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    jimp wrote on Jul 6, 2009 1:06 PM:

    " lodimaestro, maybe you should get in the line for that same bus, or better yet, why don't you move to Iran or someplace like that. I am sure they would welcome you. "

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    dogs4you wrote on Jul 6, 2009 11:50 AM:

    " Jimp That would one thing to "pray" for, second thing is that Mazie would be with her. Is that to much to ask for.

    And BTW Mazie, In God we trust is no longer in Superior Court room #23 in Stockton. "

    Report Abuse

    jimp wrote on Jul 6, 2009 11:41 AM:

    " Maybe Annie Laurie Gaylor can get run over by a bus. "

    Report Abuse

    dogs4you wrote on Jul 6, 2009 10:43 AM:

    " Mazie, you need not shed any tears nor waste your senless payers on me. How dare you mention my mother and father since you didn`t know them ( RIP ) or me. Your the kind of person that comes to my door every now and then selling what you think is good for me. I have done just fine for the past 70 years and will continue to do so. Life was never ment to all good, without bad and road bumps we wouldn`t know what good is. So get your head out of your azz and get with the real world, pray for America, the economy, foreclosures, people getting back to work, and most of all, OUR BRAVE TROOPS that are fighting to keep our country free. Since the above mentioned are controlled by man and no one else, there`s a good place to start. "

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    lodimaestro wrote on Jul 6, 2009 9:09 AM:

    " Prayer of and kind, from any religion cannot be tolerated in a public meeting like this. The fact most of these prayers invoke Jesus shows such a practice is favoring one belief over another. Keep your prayers in church and to yourselves and out of my public institutions. I am not a Christian and am offended every time I have to deal with such overt signs of Christianity. "

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    Mazie wrote on Jul 6, 2009 5:55 AM:

    " Robb and dogs: I feel so sorry for you and please know my prayers are for you. I also pray for your parents for whatever it is that they did wrong in raising you to not believe in God. I believe in Heaven and I also believe there is a Hell. Although I now must ask myself if perhaps Hell is not where the two of you live right now. To not believe in something as wonderful as Jesus Christ is beyond me. I truly feel sorry for you and will continue to remember you in prayer. "

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    Robb wrote on Jul 5, 2009 6:54 PM:

    " Mazie:
    While I understand your narrow mindedness, I hope you understand your disrespect, I for sure do not need your prayers, however, I would uphold your rights to pray. That being said, my invisible friend is stronger than your invisible friend... "

    Report Abuse

    dogs4you wrote on Jul 5, 2009 12:14 PM:

    " Mazie, perhaps you can explain your statement, burn in Hell, just where is hell located, perhaps in your mind? also soul. I know African-Americans that have soul, is it the same kind, if it`s their kind of soul then I want in on it, but being white I doubt if I can qualify.

    Leonard, your post at 7:15 yesterday states that Christ was not a Masochist but a pacifist. I was speaking of myself as not being a Masochist, and never inferred that Christ was anything other that what he was, one thing tough, look what it got him. So Leonard put on your reading glasses, take a yellow pill and read it again. "

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    Mazie wrote on Jul 5, 2009 11:14 AM:

    " i should have said her lack of belief "

    Report Abuse

    Mazie wrote on Jul 5, 2009 11:12 AM:

    " Robb: definitely DOES need prayer, i feel sorry for her and anyone who believes the way she believes. The best thing we can do is to pray for the lost souls of the world that their souls do not burn in Hell. All of us CHRISTIANS are praying for you, God have mercy on your souls. "

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    freespeech wrote on Jul 5, 2009 10:19 AM:

    " Sorry - but anyone exthorting people under the name of "equality" needs some serious therapy, not my sympathy. What happened to live and let live? Oh, yeah - FRIVILOUS LAWSUITS! So she has the freedom to sue people across the country while she disallows them freedom of speech?....nice. "

    Report Abuse

    Robb wrote on Jul 5, 2009 9:36 AM:

    " I cannot speak to annies particular reasons, however, the desire to have religion removed from "public" display, or in the realms of government, does Not need prayer nor is it the result of some trauma, I assure you.. "

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    peppier2 wrote on Jul 4, 2009 7:43 PM:

    " Annie Gaylor deserves our sympathy. She must have gone through some horrific experience to find such a goal in life as to get rid of everything Godly. Yes, she needs our prayers. "

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    Leonard wrote on Jul 4, 2009 7:13 PM:

    " dogs4you wrote on Jul 4, 2009 5:55 PM:
    " Leonard, to turn the other cheek as I see it you have already been hit once, and once is enough since I am not a masakist.

    Dogs, Christ wasn't a masochist, he was a pacifist. I've read the Gospels in the original Greek and I can safely tell you that the original text of this passage reads the same as the KJV. "

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    dogbark wrote on Jul 4, 2009 7:01 PM:

    " =Gaylor's foundation said the prayers are in violation of the city's own policy because 39 out of 55 recent prayers contained the words "Jesus Christ."=
    So lets not get mad at Annie, let's put the blame where it belongs; square on the shoulders of the preachers who accepted the invitation then chose to proselytize for their own religions. If they knew in their heart they could not give a non denominational prayer, I don't think there's a religion out there that wouldn't have counseled them, "you must decline."
    Maybe now they can pass the plate to help collection of a defense fund? "

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    dogbark wrote on Jul 4, 2009 6:55 PM:

    " Annie isn't trying to take God out of your life, just out of the invocation that opens city council meetings.
    And many of the posts here show why it probably is necessary.
    God has been defined as Jesus. (That is only true for Christians.)
    Religious People has been defined as only Christians (That is certainly not true.)
    And on and on.
    If you can't read many of these responses and see just how far they are apart from what our founding fathers envisioned, you are not reading with your heart.
    By the way those are the men who gave us e pluribus unum, which much much much later, during Ike's term was changed to In God We Trust, in order to mock the communist enslaved nations. "

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    Robb wrote on Jul 4, 2009 6:17 PM:

    " In annie we trust, In annie we trust,In annie we trust, In annie we trust,In annie we trust, In annie we trust,In annie we trust, In annie we trust,In annie we trust, In annie we trust,In annie we trust, In annie we trust,In annie we trust, In annie we trust,In annie we trust, In annie we trust, "

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    dogs4you wrote on Jul 4, 2009 5:55 PM:

    " Leonard, to turn the other cheek as I see it you have already been hit once, and once is enough since I am not a masakist. Not sure what Christ ment since I wasn`t there at the time. Nothing was written in English at the time of Christ, everything was then and still is opened to interpretation and translation. "

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    Jerome R. Kinderman wrote on Jul 4, 2009 5:07 PM:

    " Ah, it won't matter much what Ms. Gaylor does. She's picked Lodi for obvious reasons. Aside from the 9th Circuit, she wouldn't stand much of a chance in any other court. As in the past they'll ignore their duty to follow the law and the Constitution and those so afraid of religious freedom will have their moment.

    If necessary the appeal to the Supreme Court will be accepted and they'll affirm that it isn't "freedom 'from' religion" that is at the heart of the First Amendment but 'freedom 'of' religion" and reverse the 9th Circuit's activist decision.

    But even if this doesn't happen (any of it), those who are firmly ensconced in their faith shouldn't worry at all. There is something greater than all of us and the Constitution - the belief that God is in control and he won't relinquish that power to anyone - including the 9th Circuit and Ms. Annie Laurie Gaylor. Those on the wrong side of this issue don't deserve our anger or our disdain; they need our prayers, regardless of whether they want them or not. "

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    Mrs. S. wrote on Jul 4, 2009 4:46 PM:

    " I've never understood being so offended by displays of religious belief that you'd want to remove all traces of them.

    There are plenty of forms of free speech in the public forum that I don't agree with. Some, I even find offensive. However, if these expressions don't cause physical harm to a person or group, what right do I have to silence them? "

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    Leonard wrote on Jul 4, 2009 4:19 PM:

    " dogs4you wrote on Jul 4, 2009 3:29 PM:

    Today if you turn the other cheek, that only means your going to get wacked from both sides.

    Umm....

    Wasn't that exactly Christ's point? "

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    Leonard wrote on Jul 4, 2009 4:18 PM:

    " Mazie wrote on Jul 4, 2009 6:32 AM:

    In God We Trust! In God We Trust!In God We Trust! In God We TrustIn God We Trust! In God We Trust!

    Many Americans still prefer the traditional motto E Pluribus Unum to that which was imposed by the witch hunters of the 1950's.

    Perhaps a restoration of the motto that served this country for almost 200 years would be something that we could all agree on. "

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    Lodian wrote on Jul 4, 2009 3:39 PM:

    " Observer @ 1:58: You may be right. "

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    dogs4you wrote on Jul 4, 2009 3:29 PM:

    " 58, in your rather hatefull post you say that Jesus tought to turn the other cheek, that`s where Christian`s and myself part company. Today if you turn the other cheek, that only means your going to get wacked from both sides. Glad there are man`s rules that forget that cheek turning joke, otherwise the Manson`s, Morales and Davis` of the world would be running around killing people instead of in that 6' X 8' steel box where they will rot and waste away the rest of their miserable lives, how`s that for a chill pill. "

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    shrike58 wrote on Jul 4, 2009 3:00 PM:

    " Gee, it's funny to me how angry and downright abusive the religious chest beater's are in this post. You should spend more time being good little christian's (not capitalized on purpose) and learn to turn the other cheek and maybe just practice what you think you are preaching.

    You people are displaying exactly the attitude & reason for the separation of church & state. Sounds like some of you want to start a witch hunt and are denouncing someone none of you have met and really putting out some negative energy. Didn't jesus teach us not to judge and to turn the other cheek? You folks should really take a chill pill. "

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    wtf wrote on Jul 4, 2009 2:44 PM:

    " My thoughts exactly, Observer. These people are looking for a "deep pockets" lawsuit; however, Lodi is NOT where they are going to find it. LOL!

    While Bob Johnson's comment annoyed me - not the Christian part; but the "like it or not" part - this proposed lawsuit is totally repulsive and other faiths here in town better pay attention.

    This group is not called Freedom From Christianity; it's called Freedom From Religion....any religion. I was raised Catholic but have since expanded my view of religion to encompass more cultures.

    What this group proposes is to totally remove anything that is sacred or spiritual from our lives and, to me, not only intolerable it proposes a barren existence as well. "

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    Observer wrote on Jul 4, 2009 1:58 PM:

    " My observation is that this has nothing to do with Freedom from Religion. These people have found a great way to make money. Come on.....$6.5 million in assets. This is just a huge scam! "

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    dogs4you wrote on Jul 4, 2009 1:39 PM:

    " The rock/country group, The Eagles turned the Star Spangle Banner around, instead of the land of the free and the home of the brave, Don Henely sang, the home of the brave and the land of the free. If Gaylor doesn`t like it she can Shut Up and Get Out. Concerning free thinkers, Berkeley is loaded with them, they live in trees. But then that`s the 1st Admendment working overtime. Unfortunately not paying attention won`t make her or her group go away. "

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    danielh wrote on Jul 4, 2009 12:12 PM:

    " Markparsec: absolutely your 1st amendment is being violated.

    Better: Place the burden of proof on Annie Laurie Gaylor to prove that her 1st amendment right is being violated.

    Annie Laurie Gaylor has to state a claim upon which relief can be granted. "

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    danielh wrote on Jul 4, 2009 12:09 PM:

    " If I can think of a way that I am injured, and if these people put in a claim against the city, I am confident that I can issue a counter-claim from hell.

    One question is for whether I have the time to do it.

    The second is, how am I injured to get my name on the suit. I don't live within the Lodi city limits.

    Hmmm. Maybe I can say that my name is on a street, and my family name is shamed. "

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    Markparsec wrote on Jul 4, 2009 12:01 PM:

    " One could always file a suit claiming that the Freedom From Religion Foundation is violating an individual's First Ammendment Rights. Those who offer the invocations are not the council members (government)but citizens of the city. "

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    danielh wrote on Jul 4, 2009 11:58 AM:

    " Ironically, maxims of law are based throughout the bible, beginning in exodus.

    Freedom From Religion Foundation is an athiest organization threatening to use a biblical-based court organization to fight against god. (respectfully-spelled with lowercase because upper-case was invented in the ROMAN EMPIRE.) "

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    Markparsec wrote on Jul 4, 2009 11:55 AM:

    " The name of Ms. Gaylor's organization, the Freedom FROM Religion Foundation, identifies the foundation's intentions to undermine the First Ammendment of the US Constitution which states: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, OR PROHIBITING THE FREE EXERCISE THEREOF; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

    The Lodi City Council is NOT the US Congress and has not passed ANY law mandating the establishment of religion. To the contrary, the Lodi City Council is providing for the FREE EXERCISE OF religion and freedom of speech. Certainly prayer is a form of speech and cannot be abridged regardless of an individual's faith.

    Those who pray during the opening of Lodi City Council meetings are neither compelled or restrained in what they say. The wonderful thing about allowing freedom of religion and speech is that we don't have to agree with the other individual, but we are called to respect their right to say it.

    Lodi should offer Ms. Gaylor the opportunity to open our city council in prayer. "

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    danielh wrote on Jul 4, 2009 11:55 AM:

    " Mazie, I'm more furious than I was an hour ago, and I am plotting and scheming that the donations need to be listed on a counter-claim suit.

    If they are going to go into court, they need to feel like they are at-risk.

    The last thing we want is for the frontal-organization to walk into court whereas the invisible revenue support organizations are wearing a suit of immunity.

    I guarantee if you can injure their sources of revenue, Annie Laurie Gaylor and her Freedom From Religion Foundation will find an easier park to play in. "

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    danielh wrote on Jul 4, 2009 11:51 AM:

    " Mazie, Here's something that would be good to do:

    In the figures above, do you see the

    $1.033 million in other contributions, and
    $241,306 in income from the foundation's investments.

    Is not there a law for tax-exempt organizations to disclose the sources for their revenue?

    Who and what are they?

    If you want to do a counter-strike, it would be helpful to know who and what are these sources.

    Everybody has something that they don't like. If you learn that one of the donations is coming from the Ford Foundation or the Carnegie Endowment, instead of saying right away that they have too much money behind them, a petition would be a good thing, because they despise public exposure. "

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    danielh wrote on Jul 4, 2009 11:45 AM:

    " Mazie, If she's going to court, what good are signatures? Signatures go on the ballot for something.

    When an issue goes to court, only the parties who are named in the case are allowed to make statements into the court,

    unless someone enters a counter-claim as an injured 3rd party, that is to say that that 3rd party is not satisfied with the capabilities of the Lodi CC's defense.

    Otherwise, people can only stand around feeling helpless. "

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    Mazie wrote on Jul 4, 2009 11:30 AM:

    " OK all of us here obviously feel the same way. Can we not do something TOGETHER to stop this? Can we go door to door and get signatures? What can we do? So many wonderful points were made here, i wish Annie Laurie Gaylor would read this and respond. Afterall she is the one who started it. I will proudly fight for our religious freedom. Any suggestions? "

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    citizen wrote on Jul 4, 2009 11:21 AM:

    " If this wretched pathetic womans goal in life was to become one of the most annoying and hated people ever to be heard from, she has become a complete success. What a joke now people are suing because of "bad manners". God what a joke these people are an example of everything wrong with this country. Lucky these people only have 13,000 members in a country 300 million. That just shows how out of the mainstream they are. "

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    danielh wrote on Jul 4, 2009 11:16 AM:

    " Lodi CC: Let me know if a suit rolls in. I'd like to let these people know who I am.

    I'm getting more mad minute, by minute. Seriously, please let me know. I know that one of you knows exactly who I am, and probably all the other 4 of you know too.

    My work will be invisible, behind the scenes.

    Groups like this with a little bit of money and donations from secret sources think they can step on people like a door mat for their own self-centered purposes. "

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    journey wrote on Jul 4, 2009 11:11 AM:

    " ...and with that said, Miss Gaylor, the rest of us continue to pray for you regardless. "

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    danielh wrote on Jul 4, 2009 11:09 AM:

    " Have Annie Laurie Gaylor, and Freedom From Religion Foundation exhausted their administrative remedies?

    Who is the injured party?

    Has this injured party written an affidavit describing the nature of the injury?

    Does this party have capacity to sue and to be sued?

    Have they stated a claim upon which relief can be granted?

    I don't care about Annie Laurie Gaylor, or her Freedom From Religion Foundation.

    If they have an injury, let them bring it out. Otherwise, shut up!

    Why do the courts have permission to decide upon a settlement with her?

    If they come to Lodi, I recommend to the CC to notify the court that they have not exhausted their administrative remedies, in which case, the court is obligated to grant time.

    Then CC can issue a request to the plaintiff to bring forth the injured party, and a description of the injury, stated in affidavit form. "

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    ordinarycitizen wrote on Jul 4, 2009 10:58 AM:

    " God Bless America lyrics, written by Irving Berlin in 1938 states it loud and proud:

    "While the storm clouds gather far across the sea,
    Let us swear allegiance to a land that's free,
    Let us all be grateful for a land so fair,
    As we raise our voices in a solemn prayer. "

    God Bless America,
    Land that I love.
    Stand beside her, and guide her
    Thru the night with a light from above.
    From the mountains, to the prairies,
    To the oceans, white with foam
    God bless America, My home sweet home.
    God bless America, My home sweet home!" "

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    ordinarycitizen wrote on Jul 4, 2009 10:50 AM:

    " So, having examined just a few of the Ten Commandments and seeing that they are indeed good for our land, then why remove them and why remove God? Seems to me that what other people such as what Annie Laurie Gaylor is suggesting truly isn't working. Our nation is in such upheaval and a royal hot mess, it seems to me that we as a nation had better try God. It worked for our founding fathers when they drew up the Mayflower Compact and sailed to a new land for religious freedom. Our nation, regardless of the revisionist historians and lawmakers and journalists would like to get you to think was founded on "One nation, under God". Our forefathers fought for freedom and today we celebrate that freedom - the 4th of July! We are a nation of Christian heritage and it's a heritage to be proud of, not ashamed of, and certainly not to be removed. I would rather err on the side of God and the Ten Commandments all the days of my life, then what is offered by those such as Annie Laurie Gaylor. I will pray for you, that's one thing you can't take away. "

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    ordinarycitizen wrote on Jul 4, 2009 10:44 AM:

    " "Our perception is not necessarily reality." "If we define God only in our limited interpretation of our own circumstances, we will never discover who He really is." Somewhere along the line, Annie Laurie Gaylor has had a negative experience re: God. How sad that a person would make it her life's goal to remove God from everything. If I may, let's analyze some of what could be removed. Let's look at the Ten Commandments, which has garnered lots of attention of late. What exactly about the Ten Commandments gets people riled up? Thou shalt not steal. We have seen the affects of theft across our nation. Prices soar in retail markets and prisons are filled with thieves. It's a good law. Thou shalt not murder. Some thefts, robberies, take over crimes sadly end up in murder and our prisons are filled with thieves and murderers. Thou shalt not murder is a good law. Thou shalt not commit adultery. How many marriages and families have been destroyed because one partner chose to selfishly follow their own desires and enter into an adulterous relationship? Broken hearts, broken families, financial nightmares. Seems to me that's a good law. "

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    ordinarycitizen wrote on Jul 4, 2009 10:38 AM:

    " To Annie Laurie Gaylor: Gee, in this troubled economy, one would think your money would be better spent say, helping feed the poor in our nation. Wait, that's what 'religious' people do, i.e. Christians who believe in Jesus. One would think helping the homeless, clothing the naked, helping sick people get well would be money well spent. Wait, that's what Christians do who believe in Jesus. Helping, giving, providing for those who have needs, that's what Christians do who believe in Jesus. So, what's the problem with Christians and with prayer? We bow our heads when we pray as a way of respect. It has nothing to do with bad manners, but everything to do with respect. I would think your money would be better spent in this beleagured economy investing in something positive and good, instead of trying to remove and take away something that is positive and good. Prayer truly does change things, and I will pray that you will see the good in life rather than what you perceive as bad when people pray. "

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    freespeech wrote on Jul 4, 2009 10:01 AM:

    " What a waste of time, money and energy! "..not specializing in ANY kind of lawsuit" ?? A "wide variety of cases" just translates into a "wide variety of deep pockets to exthort!" Regardless of ones personal opinions, this is clearly censorship... "

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    pooreastside wrote on Jul 4, 2009 9:30 AM:

    " Comments have been excellent. Gaylor is some kind of kook who has nothing better to do than to pick on the Lord. One of our right is to worship as we please. I cannot believe this individual's ambition in life is to try to take away one of the few rights we have left. Then again, we know there are shallow people like this. Let's fight to keep "In God We Trust" and our freedom. "

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    journey wrote on Jul 4, 2009 9:15 AM:

    " "...Gaylor has made it her life's mission to remove..." It seems to me a mission should involve adding something positive to the world -- not removing something positive to so many people. What a sad, dark way to spend a life. BTW, this is from a person who does not subscribe to organized religion but who appreciates all the good such gatherings do for so many. "

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    Rhodie wrote on Jul 4, 2009 8:41 AM:

    " "remove displays of religion from public life"

    I don't know if this is a impression or something stronger but if true then this organizations mission would be to also remove any sign of theology from the outside of buildings. Churches wouldn't be able to display they are a church or what kind, crosses would be taken down from the outside and so on. On the same line, according to the statement, people wearing displays of faith like crosses or star of davids would be prosecutable. What is sad is that we know there are people, even on these boards, who would support this. "

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    Mazie wrote on Jul 4, 2009 6:32 AM:

    " Correction: FROM OUR HEARTS.
    In God We Trust! In God We Trust!In God We Trust! In God We TrustIn God We Trust! In God We Trust!
    I feel sorry for those small, little people who have nothing better to do than to try to make these changes. Losers, I swear. But, I will pray for you (you need it more than the rest of us) "

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    Mazie wrote on Jul 4, 2009 6:28 AM:

    " Annie Laurie Gaylor: good luck with that. you may be able to remove prayer from the meetings but not from our hearts or our Churches. You must feel pretty threatened by Jesus to try to remove him from our lives. HAHAHAH you cannot remove the Lord, Jesus Christ form our hearts. I would be interested in finding out who the people are from Lodi that are backing this. Watch your backs!You never know who you might upset! "

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    Curveball wrote on Jul 4, 2009 5:38 AM:

    " No matter how one feels,,thats a pretty sad lifes mission. "

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    Comments on this story are now closed.

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