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The Rev. Alan Kimber, of First United Methodist Church, leads the invocation at the start of Wednesday's Lodi City Council meeting. Council members decided in closed session that the issue concerning prayers before meetings would be put on a future agenda for public discussion. (Dan Evans/News-Sentinel)
Invocation 'should be discussed in the open'
Lodi council delays decision on prayers before meetings
Instead of making a decision behind closed doors, the Lodi City Council will wait until a future meeting to decide whether to continue prayers before meetings.
Mayor Larry Hansen said Wednesday night that the council wants to make a decision when all of the council members are present, and they want the opportunity to hear from the public.
"As this thing has evolved, we want everyone to understand the parameters the council has to operate within, instead of deciding with attorneys and then coming out and giving the decision," Hansen said.
After receiving about 30 e-mails and phone calls from citizens, Councilman Bob Johnson said it was clear that most people wanted to keep the invocation. He only received one e-mail from someone who did not want to continue with prayers before meetings.
"We are a Christian community, regardless of whether people like it or not," Johnson said. "And it should be discussed in the open."
The council discussed the issue in closed session, which is not open to the public, because the city is facing legal action. In May, the Lodi City Council received a letter from the non-profit Madison, Wis.-based Freedom From Religion Foundation threatening a lawsuit.
The group watched 55 invocations online from 2007 to the May 6 council meeting and found that 39 had a reference to Jesus Christ. The group argues that specific mentions of the word "Christ" are a violation of the city's own policy.
A plaque reading, "In God we trust," can be seen in the entrance hall of Carnegie Forum. The city council decided in closed session Wednesday that the issue concerning prayer before meetings will be on a future agenda for public discussion. (Dan Evans/News-Sentinel)
The city's policy already requires all prayers to be "non-sectarian and non-denominational."
At Wednesday's meeting, First United Methodist Church Reverend Alan Kimber gave the prayer. According to the foundation, in three of Kimber's four previous prayers, he did not mention any of the Christian-centric words the foundation was noting.
The city contacted him a few weeks ago to give the prayer, Kimber said.
"As we strive to play our part in the care and development of our community, let us be respectful of others," Kimber said during his prayer.
In a letter to the city, Kimber suggested several options on how to deal with the prayer. Most importantly, he did not want the city to spend any money fighting this in court.
He suggested discontinuing the prayer, opening with a period of silence or continuing the practice but strictly enforcing the City Council's established policy.
Some options to monitor the prayers could include requiring religious leaders to submit a printed copy of the invocation ahead of time, or offering a number of pre-approved prayers that leaders could choose from, Kimber said.
Before the council went into closed session, Arnie Prince, owner of Iron Man Toys, and Adopt-A-Child Foundation President Jerry Glenn spoke in support of keeping an invocation.
The Freedom From Religion Foundation targeted the city after receiving a complaint from one of its Lodi members about the invocations.
Rebecca Kratz, the foundation's attorney, said since she started with the group in late 2008, she has sent letters to a couple of governmental bodies every month informing them of violations and threatening legal action.
Contact reporter Maggie Creamer at maggiec@lodinews.com or read her blog at www.lodinews.com/blog/citybuzz.
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Robb wrote on Jun 5, 2009 8:53 PM:
voter wrote on Jun 4, 2009 9:11 PM:
RV wrote on Jun 4, 2009 9:09 PM:
Gator wrote on Jun 4, 2009 8:59 PM:
definitely believe in the in a supreme Master.. In the middle of a firefight
and the wounded are crying for help you hear 3 things MEDIC!!!!, Oh
GOD!!! MOTHER!!! I believe that about says it all>>> "
dogs4you wrote on Jun 4, 2009 8:26 PM:
sam wrote on Jun 4, 2009 6:36 PM:
Voter was referring to people like my nephew, who's religion is not Christian. He, by law, has the right not to use a bible.
Oh Dogs, I think my extended family has almost every religion represented. I love it. We all love and respect each other and the differences are enlightening. "
dogs4you wrote on Jun 4, 2009 6:20 PM:
voter wrote on Jun 4, 2009 5:29 PM:
dogs4you wrote on Jun 4, 2009 5:07 PM:
BTW lets all pray that the CC goes easy on raising the sewer rates in laughable Lodi, it`s coming starting July 16th, and that`s the truth. "
wtf wrote on Jun 4, 2009 3:45 PM:
I think you hit the nail on the head, voter. Looking at the current brouhaha over prayer before the CC meetings (which doesn't appear to have helped them much), the big issue, I believe, is not so much Christianity, but exclusiveness...and Bob Johnson's comment seems to underscore this.
On another blog, Cogito said he'd attend a CC meeting as long as the Satanists could have human sacrifices. Now that might be something to see. LOL! Think I'll nominate Bob Johnson to go first. ;) "
voter wrote on Jun 4, 2009 3:32 PM:
Billy Rubin wrote on Jun 4, 2009 3:17 PM:
You are insinuating all others are wrong because of your belief.
I suggest if you want to pray, pray to your version of "True God" all day the day of the council meetings and pray all the way there and then pray all the way home and all night that night and all day the next day.
The city council meetings are not at church, they're not a Christian revival, and they're not there to pray to your god or Allah or Ra or Zeus. "
Hope2Be wrote on Jun 4, 2009 3:03 PM:
But you make my point by arguing nonsensical points.
Sorry about my two typos. I meant to say 'pastors OR City Council members'. Also, meant 'economy'. "
voter wrote on Jun 4, 2009 2:55 PM:
Hope2Be wrote on Jun 4, 2009 2:48 PM:
First, that so many who don't believe in God are offended that somebody else does believe in God. That's really what's behind so much of the outrage. At the same time our Constitution guarantees the freedom OF religion, not the freedom FROM religion. It also guarantees that no laws will prohibit the free exercise of religion.
Second, that in the midst of an economic that harms our governments at every level an organization would cost these governments more money with frivolous law suits. Seems that they should be the object of scorn, not the pastors of City Council members. "
voter wrote on Jun 4, 2009 2:40 PM:
Our Father, who art al dente
Alfredo be thy name . . .
If this would seem silly or blasphemous, then I think you have your answer. Best to keep religion in homes and churches and hearts and out of city government. "
voter wrote on Jun 4, 2009 2:36 PM:
voter wrote on Jun 4, 2009 2:34 PM:
Gator wrote on Jun 4, 2009 2:31 PM:
The US Supreme Court upholds the Public Display of the Ten commandments, in a 9-0 landmark decision the Court Ruled the City of Pleasant Grove, Utah does not have to remove a Ten Commandments display from a public park. This paves the way for States,
Cities and Counties to display the Ten commandments with out fear of expensive and
Massive Lawsuits, this includes the city of Boise Idaho…2/28/09 "
voter wrote on Jun 4, 2009 2:26 PM:
Gator wrote on Jun 4, 2009 2:11 PM:
fine don’t, who gives a rat’s behind!! If all the religions believe in the Grate
Spirit, God, the Holy spirit, Jesus, the Profit and all start at point A and go off in different directions and all end up back at point A in the end. kind of makes one wonder… "
dogs4you wrote on Jun 4, 2009 2:04 PM:
WTF your more up on the Bible than I am, I often wonder if a person that is an Atheist, Hindu or Buddhist and are not Christian, are they required to place their hand on the Bible and swear to tell the truth,would they make bad jurors. Did Charlie Mason, Michael Morales or Richard Allen Davis swear to tell the truth and nothing but the truth, if they didn`t plead the 5th? Which I would think they did, so did OJ. "
Jenn H wrote on Jun 4, 2009 1:10 PM:
Gator wrote on Jun 4, 2009 12:50 PM:
Sikhism, Shinto’s, Buddhism, Jainism, Zoroastrianism and Judaism along with the American Indians all believe in the supreme Creator, they go about it in many ways but
all come back to the Center… The American Indians had very strong beliefs long before
the White man came along and messed everything up… So if all the worlds Religions
Point the way to the Great Spirit what are so many scared of??? "
tanner b wrote on Jun 4, 2009 12:47 PM:
wtf wrote on Jun 4, 2009 11:34 AM:
wtf wrote on Jun 4, 2009 11:32 AM:
Not so, dogs; Christians, Muslims and Jews all worship the God - the God of Abraham, and Muslims see Jesus as a prophet just not the son of God, while there are certain sects called "Jews for Jesus" so there really is no conflict with these groups.
However, this would leave Hindus, Buddhists, atheists, agnostics, etc. out. "
dogs4you wrote on Jun 4, 2009 10:35 AM:
As far as Bob`s statement goes, he goes the next time voting for CC members are voted for. "
Audi 5000 wrote on Jun 4, 2009 9:50 AM:
Robb wrote on Jun 4, 2009 9:45 AM:
With all due respect, your way of thinking is WRONG..
There is no such thing as "my" county or "their" county, please get past your own bigotry and understand that ALL views are valid, not just because they may be "your" majority or popular... that being said, I like to call it X-mas...;) "
davidd wrote on Jun 4, 2009 9:24 AM:
The non-Christians and non-believers in this community need to come together and be heard.
When this is placed on the council's agenda and advice from the community is sought, I hope everyone who is vocal on these forums is just as vocal at the council meeting.
A moment of silence, or nothing at all, is the only reasonable, fair solution to this mess. The quicker we agree on that, the sooner we can move on with so many more important things. "
what22 wrote on Jun 4, 2009 9:08 AM:
lodivice wrote on Jun 4, 2009 8:48 AM:
Native wrote on Jun 4, 2009 8:44 AM:
I say that if a group of people find it alright to pray for something then it should be no ones business outside that group whether they do so or not. If your not part of the group then do your own thing and leave others alone! "
danielh wrote on Jun 4, 2009 8:36 AM:
danielh wrote on Jun 4, 2009 8:30 AM:
danielh wrote on Jun 4, 2009 8:29 AM:
Audi 5000 wrote on Jun 4, 2009 8:22 AM:
Mazie wrote on Jun 4, 2009 8:22 AM:
Mazie wrote on Jun 4, 2009 8:21 AM:
Audi 5000 wrote on Jun 4, 2009 8:20 AM:
As someone recently said, it's like eating ice for dinner. "
Jenn H wrote on Jun 4, 2009 8:00 AM:
No, Councilperson Johnson. We are NOT a "Christian community." We are a COMMUNITY. To be more exact, Lodi is a CITY and a CITY, by definition, cannot endorse or adopt a religion. If you truly believe what you said, you are unfit to serve on the City Council. Period. "
Brian wrote on Jun 4, 2009 7:53 AM:
What is the status of those who reside in your Christian community who are not, themselves, Christians?
It's easy Billy. The status of those people who are not Christian in a Christian community are just that. They are not Christian and they are free to be part of any religon they want to be.
Or they are free to be part of no religious affiliation at all. Has any of THESE people had a gun put to their head
demanding they must pray at the CC meeting they are attending? Perhaps these people enjoy this time of meditation at the CC meetings. And for the most part, they understand that the mention of Jesus is traditional. So, unlike you, it doesn't get their skivvies all bunched up. "
Journey wrote on Jun 4, 2009 7:48 AM:
Observer wrote on Jun 4, 2009 7:47 AM:
wtf wrote on Jun 4, 2009 7:40 AM:
wtf wrote on Jun 4, 2009 7:38 AM:
Why, oh why, can't the CC ***embrace*** others rather than take this "us or them" posture?
What would Jesus do? Personally, I don't think he'd endorse Bob's "my way or the highway" mentality. "
jramagic wrote on Jun 4, 2009 7:38 AM:
Brian wrote on Jun 4, 2009 7:33 AM:
Alrighty, then. I guess we can safely put Mazie's name in the "Vehemently Opposed to Any Religious Freedom" column under the sub-heading "Demands Forced Christianity".
-Give it a rest Billy. Your whining about a little prayer at CC meetings
is quite revealing about how thin skinned you are. Has anyone put a gun to your head lately demanding you must attend a CC meeting and pray? Perhaps you can explain the parallels that exist between America and Saudi Arabia or some other Middle Eastern country
that makes you come to the conclusion
that we are forced to be Christian
much like the way people in the Middle East are forced to be Muslim. If you think there is no doubt there are parallels then Princess Sultana of Saudi Arabia has much to differ with you. Pick up the three book series by Jean Sasson about this Princess's true life story about what life is like behind the veil in Saudi Arabia. "
Billy Rubin wrote on Jun 4, 2009 6:54 AM:
Alrighty, then. I guess we can safely put Mazie's name in the "Vehemently Opposed to Any Religious Freedom" column under the sub-heading "Demands Forced Christianity". "
Mazie wrote on Jun 4, 2009 6:38 AM:
Billy Rubin wrote on Jun 4, 2009 5:32 AM:
That's quite a statement, Bob.
What is the status of those who reside in your Christian community who are not, themselves, Christians? "
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