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Group may sue city of Lodi over prayers at council meetings

By Maggie Creamer
News-Sentinel Staff Writer
Friday, May 29, 2009 6:34 AM PDT

A national organization is threatening to sue the city of Lodi because of Christian prayers said before Lodi City Council meetings.

On May 21, the city received a letter from Madison, Wis.-based nonprofit Freedom From Religion Foundation asking the city to stop allowing pastors to say prayers in the name of Jesus Christ.

"The problem is that Lodi is a very diverse population, with many diverse backgrounds and even non-believers, and they are made to be outsiders in their own community when Jesus is invoked," said Rebecca Kratz, the foundation's attorney.

But Bill Cummins, pastor at Bear Creek Community Church, said when he gives council prayers, he is simply following a more than 200-year U.S. tradition.

"I find it almost amusing that this organization would threaten a lawsuit over the use of one five-letter word that is not profane," Cummins said.

After receiving a complaint from a Lodi resident earlier this year, the foundation watched online video archives from 55 invocations from 2007 to May 6's council meeting. They found 39 had a reference to Jesus Christ.

The Lodi City Council will discuss how it wants to address the possibility of litigation during closed session Wednesday.

When the city clerk's office sends out invitations to churches, it includes the city's policy that any invocations must be "non-sectarian and non-denominational," city spokesman Jeff Hood said. The council established that policy in March 2006.

It invites any religious groups that have previously given invocations and any group that has expressed interest in participating.

Meetings at a glance

Here are what other governmental entities do before meetings:

  • Galt City Council has a moment of silence before meetings.
  • San Joaquin Board of Supervisors does not have any type of observance before a meeting.
  • The city of Tracy has an invocation before council meetings and encourages all religious leaders to participate, said Carole Fleischman, assistant city clerk. The city has never restricted who could speak or what they say.
  • Council members started doing invocations in the early '70s, Hood said. The council asked local religious leaders to participate in the mid-'70s, Hood said.

    The letter states that Mayor Larry Hansen said he knew the city was in violation of court case law by having an invocation. He made the comments during a 2006 debate on whether "In God We Trust" should be in the council chambers.

    Hansen said he has expected that the city would eventually have to deal with the Christian-centered invocations.

    He said he does not know what the city will do until the council talks to City Attorney Steve Schwabauer about the threatened lawsuit. But he believes the city might have to change its policy in order to avoid legal action. He suggested possibly a moment of silence or a stricter set of rules on what can be said during the invocation time.

    "It would be very easy to say, 'You know, we are going to fight this all the way,' but they are citing the U.S. Supreme Court, so I don't think we would have any opportunity to overcome that," Hansen said.

    Councilwoman Susan Hitchcock does not believe the policy should be changed, but instead the city should focus on enforcing it.

    "I think that our current policy is designed to eliminate the marginalization of other religions," she said.

    The church community will support the Lodi City Council in whatever decision is made, said Cummins, who was one of the pastors cited in the complaint, for using Jesus Christ in six of his prayers before the council.

    But he does not think any of his prayers have violated the city's non-sectarian, non-denomination clauses because he has never mentioned a specific "brand" of Christianity. He also said the U.S. House of Representatives and U.S. Senate start sessions with Christian prayers.

    "When I pray, it's for council wisdom, protection of police and firefighters and new financial resources to come to our city to provide services," Cummins said.

    In three of his four prayers, Reverend Alan Kimber did not mention any of the Christian-centric words the foundation was noting. He said he tries to not mention direct scripture references or Christian dogma, although in his first prayer he inadvertently asked people to bow their heads.

    "I do think it's a sad reflection on where we are," he said. "With all we are facing as a country and a city, that we have to spend energy in this area seems strangely inappropriate."

    He said the city could offer an invocation for those who wish to attend outside the chambers before the council meeting. He also suggested that religious groups should include prayer for elected leaders in religious ceremonies.

    One thing he would not be in favor of is a moment of silence.

    "It gives the impression that there is a bereavement," Kimber said. "It may suggest God is dead."

    While she has had no personal problems with the prayers, Councilwoman JoAnne Mounce said she will wait to hear from Schwabauer to see if it is a violation. She is surprised that a citizen would take a complaint to national group instead of talking with a council member.

    "I would really hope if any of our citizens have a problem with what the city council is doing, they would contact us personally. Nobody has come to me and complained," she said. If the complaint is accurate, Councilman Bob Johnson said the city may have to change its policy. "I do know they open the U.S. Congress and Supreme Court with a prayer," Johnson said. "If it's good enough for them, why isn't it good enough for livable, lovable Lodi?"

    Contact reporter Maggie Creamer at maggiec@lodinews.com.

    Reader Feedback

    Gator wrote on Jun 5, 2009 8:35 PM:

    " Jesus saves, Moses invests and Peter goes fishing!!! "

    Ivan Dixon wrote on Jun 5, 2009 5:32 PM:

    " My G*d is definitely p.o.ed at all these dim witted goys who have completely misunderstood his words.

    I suspect reciting their prayers in a City Council Meeting would only serve to further upset him. "

    what22 wrote on Jun 5, 2009 8:19 AM:

    " DYAN HOW MANY CATS DO YOU HAVE "

    Audi 5000 wrote on Jun 5, 2009 8:09 AM:

    " voter: no "

    Audi 5000 wrote on Jun 5, 2009 8:06 AM:

    " Billy, since when have the bloggers taken over City policy and the rule of law? "

    Billy Rubin wrote on Jun 4, 2009 6:13 PM:

    " Audi 5000 wrote on Jun 4, 2009 1:03 PM:"...the attempt is being made to prevent others from praying. Also, who's demanding whom to leave town?"

    Sorry, Audi, I didn't mean to leave you high and dry. I was so amazed at your dishonesty with the first part of your post, I missed the fact that you don't read what others write.

    If you will read the posts, you will see which of the loving Christians want the non-Christians to forego public meetings and to leave this Christian community. But it starts with you reading the posts. "

    voter wrote on Jun 4, 2009 3:38 PM:

    " Audi, the best approach is to just pray to your god so he will not smite us? Is that what you are trying to say? "

    Audi 5000 wrote on Jun 4, 2009 3:29 PM:

    " Voter: I agree that a prayer to "the one called by many names", etc, is ridiculous and offensive to all beliefs, and we would be better off with nothing because a prayer like that is less than nothing. The best appraoch is the traditional prayer format that has always been used.

    None of this was an issue until a few from far away attempted to stir the pot. Why are they affraid of the name of Jesus? "

    voter wrote on Jun 4, 2009 3:29 PM:

    " Bingo. "

    Billy Rubin wrote on Jun 4, 2009 3:21 PM:

    " What point, Audi?
    Who is preventing you from praying?
    Who?
    Name names, Audi.
    Who is keeping you from praying?

    Or are you sore because you want everyone else to have to pray? Is that it? "

    voter wrote on Jun 4, 2009 3:03 PM:

    " Audi, some people's almighty god is an angry and jealous god who might smite us for worshiping a false deity. That is what many in this town believe--isn't that what you were taught? This business about letting all religions take turns with the prayer might be seen as dangerous. I would say that it is safer to pray to none than to risk the wrath of other gods, don't you think? Food for thought for the dogmatically religious. "

    Audi 5000 wrote on Jun 4, 2009 1:03 PM:

    " Hi Billy. That's the point, the attempt is being made to prevent others from praying. Also, who's demanding whom to leave town?

    Historically Lodi has been a Christian community and that community is still a strong presence.

    BTW, what's harmful about a prayer that asks for wisdom guidance, the best for our city, safety, etc? Sounds like a good thing to me. "

    Billy Rubin wrote on Jun 4, 2009 12:36 PM:

    " Audi 5000 wrote on Jun 4, 2009 8:52 AM:"Sam: speaking of forcing a belief system onto others; that statement is a 2-way street as no one has the right to tell someone they can or can not pray, thereby forcing a belief system on them."

    Audi, you're being ridiculous.
    To try to pretend that others are somehow preventing you from praying is assinine. I feel safe in suggesting nobody in Lodi cares if you stay up 24 hours a day praying.

    The problem, that you intentionally deny, is when city council members state that this is a "Christian community", to the exclusion of all others. The problem, that you intentionally deny, is when other citizens, fanned by a councilpersons assertion, start demanding others leave town.

    But you knew that. "

    Audi 5000 wrote on Jun 4, 2009 8:52 AM:

    " Sam: speaking of forcing a belief system onto others; that statement is a 2-way street as no one has the right to tell someone they can or can not pray, thereby forcing a belief system on them.

    They are guilty of exactly what they accuse others of. "

    Audi 5000 wrote on Jun 4, 2009 8:42 AM:

    " Non-profit Atty. Rebecca Kratz says "they are made to be outsiders in their own community".

    Is this the best argument Ms. Kratz can muster? A religious belief has no bearing on the status as a citizen of Lodi. Just drive around Lodi and take note of all the various churches. Nearly every religious train of thought is represented. No one's citizenship has been revoked because they belong to a non-Christian church.

    Therefore we must ask what Ms. Kratz real agenda is? Is it to pad her weak resume? Make herself nationally relevant? Foolishly attempt to place her finite ideals above God infinite wisdom? Appease her fear? Guilt? All of the above? What is it, Ms. Kratz? "

    sam wrote on Jun 4, 2009 8:24 AM:

    " Cog... and Arnie personally defines marriage as a union between a man and a woman yet supports same sex marriage.

    He says he believes he does not have the right to enforce his beliefs on others. Kudos to Arnie. "

    Brian wrote on Jun 4, 2009 8:03 AM:

    " Dyan wrote:
    I wonder if Obama is going to bring the subject up on his Mideast tour?

    -If a person knew nothing about Saudi Arabia they would think it was full of a bunch of men given the majority of the pictures we see of Saudi Arabia are a bunch of men walking around together in dirty nightshirts and checkered tablecloths on their heads. "

    Cogito wrote on Jun 4, 2009 7:08 AM:

    " Sam's right Dyan. Dick Cheney's for same sex marriage, and President Obama is on record saying " my beliefs say marriage is something sanctified between a man and a woman". Is that a sign of the Apocalypse? "

    Lodian wrote on Jun 3, 2009 10:36 PM:

    " dyan: Again, if you can't take what you dish out then don't dish it out. Stop whining. "

    sam wrote on Jun 3, 2009 6:37 PM:

    " ...on the issue here, why does the city council need to pray before a meeting?

    Before they run the city into the ground financially they are asking for God's guidance?

    That is an insult to my God. "

    sam wrote on Jun 3, 2009 5:50 PM:

    " Frank, I know of the family on Stockton Street that you are referring to. I think a law suit rather than a letter to the editor or a "call Curtis" would benefit them the best. Just my take.

    Check out Chop (Charles) Keenan against Half Moon Bay. Chop is a dear friend of mine. Cities cannot just take landowners rights away. Chop also proved a city cannot declare bankruptcy to get out of paying.

    Way to go Chop. "

    sam wrote on Jun 3, 2009 5:44 PM:

    " dyan, Cheney said last Monday that he is for same sex marriage.

    Do you consider him a Republican still? Or is he now a kool aide drinking Obama supporter?

    I do understand if you oppose gay marriage because of your religious beliefs, but I do think it is quickly becoming a non-paritsan issue. "

    dyan wrote on Jun 3, 2009 4:44 PM:

    " Lodian: Nice job of name-calling, but I'd say if there are any "nut jobs" here it's those that believe same sex marriage is a sane act. I wonder if Obama is going to bring the subject up on his Mideast tour? LOL! "

    Gator wrote on Jun 3, 2009 3:45 PM:

    " Grown men can learn from very little children for the hearts of little children are pure. Therefore, the Great Spirit may show to them many things which older people miss. Black Elk!! "

    Billy Rubin wrote on Jun 2, 2009 10:23 PM:

    " I'm glad our appreciation for oneanother is mutual, Cog. Party on. "

    Cogito wrote on Jun 2, 2009 7:14 PM:

    " Billy, I used to be a Democrat. I was young and naive, and believed all their pie in the sky, we're for the little guy bs. As I got older, before going to church, I figured out the lies their platform is based on. Plus, I had to go through the embarrassment of having voted for the worst president of my lifetime, Jimmy Carter. When I straightened out my life, over a decade ago, I learned to disrespect those on the left on a whole new level. There are Democrats I've voted for since then, but they are the exception. My values, both in and out of church, are not defined by any political party. Every election, I hold my nose and vote for the least "repugnant". I lose no sleep at night thinking of how you, or anyone else feels about me. Leonard was right, what you usually bring is weak. "

    Billy Rubin wrote on Jun 2, 2009 5:53 PM:

    " Eh, they can't all be out-of-the-park home runs, Leonard. I thought it was ridiculous when Cogito made his grandstand statement and repugnant when he denied it. "

    Leonard wrote on Jun 2, 2009 4:14 PM:

    " Billy Rubin wrote on Jun 1, 2009 6:07 PM:
    " Well, OK, Cog - when you wrote that you learned your Republican values at your church it must have been during one of your last meth-induced frenzies or whatever it is that you dopers have.


    Weak.....

    :( "

    Lodian wrote on Jun 2, 2009 4:08 PM:

    " Cogito wrote on Jun 2, 2009 3:14 PM:

    " Dyan, there are only 3 categories of liberals, or Demoncrats for that matter. Fascists, Marxists, and the largest category of all, clueless. And they're all a bunch of angry little parasites. "

    Cogito: Unless you are going for the laugh here this has got to be the most ignorant comment ever on these forums (well, almost! LOL!). Were you going for the laugh here, Cogito? I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt, but... "

    Lodian wrote on Jun 2, 2009 4:04 PM:

    " Cogito: You disappoint me. "

    Acampo_Mom wrote on Jun 2, 2009 3:25 PM:

    " Wow...
    What a ridiculous bunch of children.
    I used to find these forums entertaining, interesting, or at the very least a way to kill time.

    I don't believe I'll be back again. You're all embarrassing yourselves, and I feel embarrassed for you.

    Sad "

    Billy Rubin wrote on Jun 2, 2009 3:20 PM:

    " I'm a Republican. "

    Cogito wrote on Jun 2, 2009 3:14 PM:

    " Dyan, there are only 3 categories of liberals, or Demoncrats for that matter. Fascists, Marxists, and the largest category of all, clueless. And they're all a bunch of angry little parasites. "

    Lodian wrote on Jun 2, 2009 3:13 PM:

    " dyan wrote "He doesn't seem to know that liberals are not supposed to be hateful people."

    dyan: Yep, you and your right wingnut pals seem to be the most hateful of all. "

    dyan wrote on Jun 2, 2009 1:40 PM:

    " Billy could use some anger management.
    He doesn't seem to know that liberals are not supposed to be hateful people. "

    Billy Rubin wrote on Jun 2, 2009 12:33 PM:

    " We all are classy, Cogito, aren't we? "

    Cogito wrote on Jun 2, 2009 7:24 AM:

    " Way to be classy Billy. "

    Billy Rubin wrote on Jun 1, 2009 6:07 PM:

    " Well, OK, Cog - when you wrote that you learned your Republican values at your church it must have been during one of your last meth-induced frenzies or whatever it is that you dopers have. "

    Robb wrote on Jun 1, 2009 4:32 PM:

    " Yea, like this is Important..... "

    Cogito wrote on Jun 1, 2009 10:20 AM:

    " Acampo Mom is right, time to "call Curtis". "

    Audi 5000 wrote on Jun 1, 2009 7:37 AM:

    " It's nice that the Wisc. activists realize the power of Jesus. Too bad they don't also realize that forcing the name of Jesus out of the public domain does not remove Jesus from the public domain. "

    erikisawesome wrote on May 31, 2009 11:16 PM:

    " I don't care what some group from Wisconsin says. If I don't have the right to tell you you HAVE to believe in God, you don't have the right to tell me to NOT believe in Him. And OMG - wasn't Mr. Larry Hansen a police officer before he worked for us as Mayor? His comments sound as if he is afraid to resist this group at all due to possible legal problems. Be a leader Larry. Grow a set. Besides - you are NOT the city attorney, maybe let a lawyer worry about the legalities. If you are a leader of any kind, stand up and fight for someone like me, a life-long Lodian, who believes something bigger than myself, bigger than all of us, is at work every day. "

    Acampo_Mom wrote on May 31, 2009 10:39 PM:

    " stantaves wrote on May 31, 2009 7:09 PM:
    " Frank, I pray that what you are saying can not be true -- It's letter time Frank. "


    You bet it's letter time! But don't waste your time writing a letter to the editor, write it to several news stations. Better yet...give them a call! "

    stantaves wrote on May 31, 2009 7:09 PM:

    " Frank, I pray that what you are saying can not be true -- It's letter time Frank. "

    Frank wrote on May 31, 2009 6:28 PM:

    " Lodi CC is screwing the citizens on Stockton Street. How can you deny people within the city limits water? "

    Frank wrote on May 31, 2009 6:20 PM:

    " When we annex something we should provide services. If we cannot get these people water, we need to let them drill a new well.

    How ignorant and unresponsible can we get? Deprive them of water? How stupid are our civic leaders?

    This prayer lawsuit is NOTHING compared to the lawsuits coming down the pipline. "

    Frank wrote on May 31, 2009 6:16 PM:

    " We are worried about being sued for a prayer?

    How about us be sued for screwing over new annexed residents? What is wrong with our city? "

    Frank wrote on May 31, 2009 6:14 PM:

    " Talking bout law suits, I hear a family on Stockton street had their well go out. They now are in the new reynolds ranch subdivision and no longer in the county.

    I hear they requested a permit for a new well.

    Lodi said NO. Now they have no access to water except for a hose from a neighbor. Lodi will not provide city water.

    I say we deserved to be sued for depriving them of water. How can we not give them water? Are we as a city that stupid? We annex the land and then deprive those in the area of basic services.
    WTF. "

    Cogito wrote on May 31, 2009 3:33 PM:

    " No Billy, I learned my PERSONAL values at church! My personal values just happen to correspond more to the Republican party than the Demoncrats. How's that hangover today? "

    Ivan Dixon wrote on May 31, 2009 1:59 PM:

    " Big government liberals and fundamentalist Christians have one thing in common.

    They both believe that they know better how their neighbors should live than their neighbors do.

    Personally, I don't have much use for either of them. "

    stantaves wrote on May 31, 2009 11:21 AM:

    " The earth is the devil, and life is sin; And hell it hides in the hearts of men. But if it's heaven you wish for your heart; then a trust in God is where you start. But where is God? one might ask; and that's when the searching becomes your task. So worry not about your sins; just get on your knees and the search begins. "

    stantaves wrote on May 31, 2009 11:13 AM:

    " Let me try to help you Billy. A while back an atheist friend of mine tried to convince me that there was no God. He began by saying that religion was a made-up thing used by the powerful to control the masses. I responded by telling him that he might be right; but that in no way did that make God less valuable. You see, we create God -- in it's various forms -- because of an inherent desire to live forever. In other words it is only through a belief in immortality that we can be happy in our daily lives. He stopped me claiming that he was very happy and that he didn't need my made-up God to be so. I told him that he was confusing joy with happiness; and that he would come to my understanding if and when he was able to surrender himself to the power of immortality -- or God if you will. Needles to say my friend became angry; fortunately his efforts to bring to me to a state of Godliness ended that day. We are still friends, and life goes on -- and forever if you will just believe it. "

    Billy Rubin wrote on May 31, 2009 10:27 AM:

    " No, Cog, you said you learned all your Republican values at your church.

    I remember questioning you at the time.

    You said you learned all your Republican values at your church.

    You can try to deny it or spin it or amend it in an attempt to de-politicize it now, but you were quite clear then that your godliness and sanctimony is rooted in your Republicanism and vice-versa.

    Your church, you said, taught you your political values. "

    Rhodie wrote on May 31, 2009 9:12 AM:

    " Premature posting, sorry:

    Anyway, if these are the religions represented and the prayer is for guidence in descision making then the prayer should be one that members of the council give weight to. Sorry, the attending audience is not making a descision so they can listen quietly or step outside if it offends them.

    Anything that gets the desciding committees to think of something other than their own agendas has my full endorsement. Of course I wouldn't mind the councils being hooked up to some sort of lie detectors for every meeting as well. Because asking for wisdom in action doesn't mean you will follow it. "

    Rhodie wrote on May 31, 2009 9:07 AM:

    " Granted, this is what every politician should be doing in the first place but too many of them are more than willing to sacrifice "right" for themselves. A few words at the beginning of a meeting to get the members thinking about something other than themselves sounds like a good idea.

    As to whose prayer, in whose name and which religions are represented I think they should be that of the representative body. If athiests Or whoever) want to represented on the board then put a canidate up. If there are Jews, Christians, Islamic, Wicca and Buddhists "

    Rhodie wrote on May 31, 2009 9:02 AM:

    " Voter:
    "If Christians truly believe that prayer to the God of the Bible will sway some favor for us locals"

    Just a point of clarification; All the pryaers before a deciding group that I have heard are for guidence, not favor. They are usually a prayer asking for wisdom and understanding. The difference is asking God to give you the job you really want (removing any blame from the individual if they don't get it) vs. asking God for the ability to get the job (placing the ability to act or not act on the individual).

    In terms of the CC it can be looked at this way: Asking for wisdom to make the right choices can boil down to the little nagging voice in the back of their mind that says 'what I am voting on is bad/good for Lodi but my supporters want me to do what is opposite of what I think is right. I'm going to go against what I is best for me and do what is best for Lodi." Cont. "

    Cogito wrote on May 31, 2009 8:27 AM:

    " Lodian, words only have the power that you give them. "

    Cogito wrote on May 31, 2009 1:00 AM:

    " Billy, quit drinking and typing. I never said Jesus was a Republican. I don't want the savior sullied up by politics. My faith in God only gives me guidance as to who the least evil candidates are. What I said was that Satan is a Democrat! Try and get a sense of humor amigo. "

    Lodian wrote on May 31, 2009 12:55 AM:

    " "I find it almost amusing that this organization would threaten a lawsuit over the use of one five-letter word that is not profane," Cummins said.

    I guess Cummins doesn't know the power behind this five letter word. "

    Billy Rubin wrote on May 30, 2009 9:14 PM:

    " Cogito wrote on May 29, 2009 5:58 PM:"I don't want my God associated with politics..."

    Did you change gods or churches, Cog? Because just a few weeks ago you were happily blogging that your church taught you all your Republican values.

    Cogito wrote "I don't want my God associated with politics as they are today..."

    Was your god associated with politics a couple of years ago when the Republicans had it all? Do you want your god to come back to the political forefront when the next election hits?

    What changed, Cog? Jesus, you told us, was a staunch Republican, now you want him nowhere near it. When do you want him back "running things"? "

    scott wrote on May 30, 2009 2:40 PM:

    " lodi is goin to hell without a prayer look what happened to galt with their moment of silence need i say more we are all doomed "

    Cogito wrote on May 30, 2009 12:20 PM:

    " Leonard, many evangelicals also believe that Catholics and Mormons are going to Hell. I still wouldn't consider them agnostics or aethists. "

    Leonard wrote on May 30, 2009 11:44 AM:

    " Attitude wrote on May 30, 2009 11:04 AM:

    It is too bad that people don't understand that Satan is after the good and the bad. He'll remind you of every past sin, every dark moment, every foolish thing you ever did.


    Wow! All that and the Presidency???

    That Barack Obama must be one heck of a multi tasker! "

    Leonard wrote on May 30, 2009 11:38 AM:

    " Cog, if you approach a modern evangelical and list Thomas Jefferson's spiritual beliefs (without attribution of course)as your own, nine times out of ten, they will tell you that you are an atheist.

    Try it. I have myself and I have the scars to prove it. "

    Attitude wrote on May 30, 2009 11:04 AM:

    " Why is it that people can form groups to tell other people what to do? What has Madison, Wis. have to do with Lodi?
    It is too bad that people don't understand that Satan is after the good and the bad. He'll remind you of every past sin, every dark moment, every foolish thing you ever did. We must put on the shield of faith.What is that you say? Our great protection against every devilish, hurting word spoken against us. To hold it up against the enemy's onslaught is to extinguish every voice of fear and unbelief. "

    Cogito wrote on May 30, 2009 10:51 AM:

    " Jenn, do you really believe that? Did you pass history? Google this and learn for yourself. earlyamericanhistory.net/founding_fathers.htm "

    Jenn H wrote on May 30, 2009 8:34 AM:

    " Peppier2: I recommend you take a U.S. history course because you will learn that most of the founding fathers were atheists and agnostics. They drafted the Constitution to assure that no one would be forced to participate in religion or persecuted for not doing so. This is NOT a Christian nation, despite zealous followers of Jesus Christ's attempts to make it so. Gail: I am "FROM" LODI. I have been here all of my life. And your comment sounds too much like the kinds of things I heard growing up here that I have fought against my whole life. YOu sound like the bigots in my childhood neighborhood in this town who made me cringe in shame then . . . and you should be ashamed for your comment now. But, of course, you don't have the good sense to be ashamed because, as a bigot, you don't think you are wrong. Let me spell it out for you: You stated on a public forum that Jews do not belong in Lodi. SHAME ON YOU. You are despicable. "

    Brian wrote on May 30, 2009 8:27 AM:

    " This group should be focusing their energies on the Muslim call to prayer in the Dearborn, MI area over loudspeakers.
    Now this is ridiculous. At least they don't say Jesus Christ in their prayers, this group might say. "

    Mad Dog wrote on May 30, 2009 1:33 AM:

    " Mad Dog's Rules of Common Sense: Rule #1 If you want to pray, go to a church. Rule #2 If you want to do City business, go to the City. Rule #3 See Rule #1.

    I pray that this will resolve the problem. "

    Cogito wrote on May 30, 2009 12:14 AM:

    " Leonard, I was a groomsman in a full blown Catholic Mass ceremonial wedding in my youth of one of my dearest friends. It's the only wedding I've been in where the groomsmen were actually allowed to sit down. Thank God! I would have had to actually trained to stand as long as the ceremony required. When it was over, I knew how much my friend and his betrothed were in love. Anyone who could withstand the ceremony, standing, kneeling, standing, kneeling, and standing again, for what seemed an eternity, must really be in love. Coupled with the disincentive of having to repeat it, they're still married today ( approx 25 years ). Well, I guess you can't argue with results! Are your Wiccan friends still married? Do Wiccans believe in excommunication? "

    Leonard wrote on May 29, 2009 7:32 PM:

    " dogs4you wrote on May 29, 2009 6:51 PM:

    Leonard, in their own way, perhaps Satanists and Wiccans conduct the own version of prayer, who`s to say?


    I don't know about Satanists but the Wiccans pray ad nauseum.

    I had a cousin who got married in a Wiccan ceremony years ago and the ceremony went on forever. By the last half, I was praying to Jesus that I wouldn't die of old age before it was over. My dad was laughing his bass off at the whole thing. "

    yeah you wrote on May 29, 2009 7:29 PM:

    " We should replace the prayer with a moment of wishing really hard. "

    dogs4you wrote on May 29, 2009 6:51 PM:

    " People thought that by praying it would make George Bush a better man, maybe it did. You had better double your praying now that Obama is running the show.

    Leonard, in their own way, perhaps Satanists and Wiccans conduct the own version of prayer, who`s to say? "

    Leonard wrote on May 29, 2009 6:33 PM:

    " The suit is a waste of time but the policy it addresses is moronic as well.

    Will someone please drop me a line when the Satanists or the Wiccans sign up to conduct the prayer?

    It would be worth the price of the airline ticket to fly home and see that spectacle. "

    Cogito wrote on May 29, 2009 5:58 PM:

    " I don't want my God associated with politics as they are today, or to have His name on our money. I associate both with evil. "

    voter wrote on May 29, 2009 5:49 PM:

    " An open invitation to all beliefs defeats the intended purpose, does it not? If Christians truly believe that prayer to the God of the Bible will sway some favor for us locals, don't they also believe their God will become angry and vengeful if the city elders offer up prayers to false gods? Or do they believe that many gods exist and it's best to cover all the bases? "

    Billy Rubin wrote on May 29, 2009 5:47 PM:

    " I agree with you Cog.
    Those who believe in nothing soon have fallen for the idea there is a magic man gazing at them from the clouds who is helping them think. They fall for the idea that praying would make George Bush a better man.

    The "something" of their belief was nothing.

    Far better to believe in something - reality.

    I think pooreastside said it all for the Christian lot with, "I hope this group rots in hell."

    A Christian mantra if ever I read one. "

    dogs4you wrote on May 29, 2009 5:42 PM:

    " pooreastside states that he hope this group rots in hell, ahhhh eastside rot in hell I doubt it, burn is more appropriate. Your so mean, lighten up and attend a CC meeting, it might do you some good. Your soul needs some saving. "

    davidd wrote on May 29, 2009 5:19 PM:

    " It has always bothered me that many of our public events such as council meetings included these invocations.

    Whether or not they reference a particular religion, they still are of a religious nature. They give praise to a god, ask for its blessing and wisdom, and that bothers me.

    Worse than this being a waste of time and tax dollars, it serves as a reminder that we have people who think that there is some outside force influencing our universe. "

    wtf wrote on May 29, 2009 5:15 PM:

    " kidsalami, regarding your 12:02 PM repeat post of your 9:39 AM post, I responded to you at 9:57 AM. "

    pooreastside wrote on May 29, 2009 5:13 PM:

    " I hope this group rots in hell. How do prayers at our counsel meetings hurt them in Wisc. "

    Cogito wrote on May 29, 2009 5:08 PM:

    " "if you believe in nothing, you'll fall for anything" (unknown) " don't place faith in human beings, cause human beings ain't reliable things" (Billy Corgan). Just a couple for the Nihilist Billy. "

    sam wrote on May 29, 2009 4:20 PM:

    " Dogs, great blogs. "

    Billy Rubin wrote on May 29, 2009 4:10 PM:

    " Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire "

    warrenb1973 wrote on May 29, 2009 3:20 PM:

    " onestooge-I have read about it,and made my own dicision based on what i read.Putting god first? I think not. In the real world you should put your family first.You say that, "all the people in the bible that trusted in man failed".Of coarse it says that its the bible.lol.does that mean that everyone who beleives in god will never fail?No. Dont get me wrong, beleiving is a good thing for some people,but not all..

    Very well said dogs4you... "

    dogs4you wrote on May 29, 2009 2:58 PM:

    " Cogito, I never inferred that the entire race cannot reason for themselves, however the ones in power will do the thinking and the will of the people weather they want it or not. I did not vote for Obama, never the less I have nothing to say or can do anyhting in the decessions he makes for me or the entire country. Get my point? "

    Cogito wrote on May 29, 2009 2:24 PM:

    " Dogs, you say the entire human race is made up of those "who cannot reason for themselves". Now, don't you feel better for your admission? Is that a load off your chest? Thanks for your honesty. "

    dogs4you wrote on May 29, 2009 2:17 PM:

    " onestooge, putting God first means that in order to have the perfect life, that would mean cloning and taking the thinking process away from man. God gave man the ability to think, reason, make decessions, not that they have always been correct, however the human race is made up of individuals that cannot always reason for themselves. Concerning Presidents of the past, though we will never know, did Harry Truman ask God for advice before he ordered the dropping of "The Bomb" on Japan, I rather doubt it, it was his decission and his alone to live with. It is still pondered today, given the outcome we now know, what would you do if your were in "Give `em Hell Harry`s place since the buck stopped there with him. "

    dogs4you wrote on May 29, 2009 1:57 PM:

    " Does religion make you a better person? Maybe, maybe not. If a person doesn`t believe in God, does that make him or her a bad person. Does the President have to believe in God in order to be elected, if he does ask for guidness and that advice doesn`t work out, does God take the blame. Let people do what they want to do, what`s the big deal. The perfect example is, Prop 8, sooner or later it will be overturned despite of the NO on 8 which passed by the popular vote. All goes back to what an individual wants to believe, starting with a creature with one cell, to apes, to caveman to modern man, or the Adam and Eve fable, it`s all in what an individual wants to belive and let it go at that, since you can`t change a persons mind anyway. "

    jbhiker wrote on May 29, 2009 12:17 PM:

    " Warren - you cannot reason with these people. They have been causing trouble for regular people since the dawn of man. The Stooge is just another incarnation of that darkness in humanity. "

    onestooge wrote on May 29, 2009 12:09 PM:

    " not correct warren. this country has been around so long due to our christian faith. man cannot rely on himself. we need to put God first and everything else after that. we would see better marriages, children and a better society. all people in the Bible who trusted in man failed. you should read about it. "

    kidsalami wrote on May 29, 2009 12:02 PM:

    " wtf, what this article failed to mention is that they DO invite all religions with places of worship in Lodi. I have been to events and even this meeting where a Muslim offers a sort of prayer and even a rabbi. I am Christian, but didn't feel at all slighted or bothered that they had their own religion. If other religions have such an issue, maybe they need to step up to the plate and accept the council's invitation "

    warrenb1973 wrote on May 29, 2009 12:00 PM:

    " onestooge-Try Trusting in yourself,and having "faith" in yourself and you might see some real results.Maybe our presidents have prayed to "GOD" for guidance,but in the end it was them that made this country, not god... "

    onestooge wrote on May 29, 2009 11:51 AM:

    " these people who wrote the laws asked God to guide them and they looked to the Bible for their guidence. you need to take another look at our real history and not what is taught in our public schools. "

    onestooge wrote on May 29, 2009 11:48 AM:

    " jbhiker, look back to our history, that's why people came here and our government is rich with history of god in it's writings. also read many of the presidents in the past and how they looked and prayed to God. that's what made us and will keep us. if we turn away than we are in trouble. "

    warrenb1973 wrote on May 29, 2009 11:39 AM:

    " Evolution or Creation ? I say Evolution!!!!!Beleive in what you want,dont use that to try and sue...LOSERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! "

    dogs4you wrote on May 29, 2009 11:28 AM:

    " This group wants to sue the CC for prayers at the council meeting, most likely hates their dog and it totally against WalMart. Slackers and loosers "

    jbhiker wrote on May 29, 2009 10:29 AM:

    " onestooge said: "this country was founded upon the christian faith"
    WRONG - This country was founded on LAWS. I Quote: "That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed" "

    onestooge wrote on May 29, 2009 10:21 AM:

    " keep praying to our creator. this country was founded upon the christian faith. this is the problem today, too many people trust themselves or others when we need to put our faith in Jesus Christ. until we do this the country will continue to go down hill. "

    jbhiker wrote on May 29, 2009 10:09 AM:

    " peppier2 wrote: "The reason our values and principles are going downhill is because we forgot our Creator. "
    WRONG!! - We forget the LAW. Laws were passed because religious nut jobs were DEMANDING allegiance to THEIR god. Let's see.. Dark Ages, Crusades oh and War for American Independence. You know, George the Sovereign King of England and the New World? "

    wtf wrote on May 29, 2009 10:04 AM:

    " This threatened lawsuit sounds on par with this lawsuit:

    Principal files complaint over missed high-five

    http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gEEwYxGf04lrUnvZkHK2YP1e0Z5gD98FJIG00


    Lame. "

    wtf wrote on May 29, 2009 10:00 AM:

    " In my book, since the CC already does this...kudos to them. Rather than "take away" the Christian aspect; we already have an "add to" with the addition of other faiths.

    This not only promotes diversity; but by providing insight into others, also promotes peace through understanding. "

    wtf wrote on May 29, 2009 9:57 AM:

    " kidsalami wrote: "...what this article failed to mention is that they DO invite all religions with places of worship in Lodi."

    Thanks for the info! Then I don't see our fair city having any problem and think that my 'tempest in a teapot' may be an apt description. LOL! "

    kidsalami wrote on May 29, 2009 9:39 AM:

    " wtf, what this article failed to mention is that they DO invite all religions with places of worship in Lodi. I have been to events and even this meeting where a Muslim offers a sort of prayer and even a rabbi. I am Christian, but didn't feel at all slighted or bothered that they had their own religion. If other religions have such an issue, maybe they need to step up to the plate and accept the council's invitation "

    gail1 wrote on May 29, 2009 9:30 AM:

    " hey Jen H where ever your from you and your friend leave go away you don't belong here "

    Cogito wrote on May 29, 2009 9:25 AM:

    " El Bombero, you're right. It's mostly the immigrants from Europe who formed America into the greatest country in the world. "

    Lodian wrote on May 29, 2009 9:03 AM:

    " wtf @ 7:57am: I agree. "

    Mazie wrote on May 29, 2009 9:02 AM:

    " ElBombero: did i say beatings? dude, you need your eyes checked big time. i said SPANKINGS, big difference. My parents never beat me. But i have seen quite a few brats that should have been beat, and that is the truth. "

    ElBombero wrote on May 29, 2009 8:52 AM:

    " Thanks for the advice, Maze, but I don't beat my kids. By the by, In god we Trust was added in 1956. Hardly got the gravitas of the founding fathers behind it, don't you think? "

    caveman wrote on May 29, 2009 8:51 AM:

    " If you would care to email this organization and let them know how you feel info@ffrf.org "

    ElBombero wrote on May 29, 2009 8:49 AM:

    " It's us immigrants who made this country great. You lazy bigoted locals ought to move on. "

    Mazie wrote on May 29, 2009 8:49 AM:

    " it is no wonder our world is in such trouble. gang members, drugs, murders. everyone is taking GOD out of our lives and there is nothing left but evil. Put God back in our schools and teach the kids values instead of fearing them and what the hell is with not spanking kids? that is part of the problem. when i grew up if i messed up, i got a spanking and i believe I turned out a better person for it. "

    Mazie wrote on May 29, 2009 8:42 AM:

    " IN GOD WE TRUST IN GOD WE TRUST IN GOD WE TRUST.IN GOD WE TRUST IN GOD WE TRUST IN GOD WE TRUST.IN GOD WE TRUST IN GOD WE TRUST IN GOD WE TRUST.IN GOD WE TRUST IN GOD WE TRUST IN GOD WE TRUST.
    If you don't like it, leave our country! "

    ElBombero wrote on May 29, 2009 8:38 AM:

    " America is a Christian country, Pepp? No it's not! Man oh man these bigots get on my nerves... "

    Cogito wrote on May 29, 2009 8:38 AM:

    " I say we rename anything having to do with Christianity. San Francisco surely doesn't deserve to have a Christian name, nor does Los Angeles. Then we can rename San Diego, Santa Barbara, San Jose, Santa Maria, San Juan Bautista, etc, because the mere mention of their names evokes a saint. Then we can go out of state to places like Los Cruces, and Corpus Christie and force them to change their names. I mean, let's waste as much time and resources as we can on this issue that will obviously change all of our lives for the better. "

    peppier2 wrote on May 29, 2009 8:33 AM:

    " Jenn H---Wake up- America is a Christian country and that's why we live here so that we may worship without being molested. The reason our values and principles are going downhill is because we forgot our Creator. "

    T & C wrote on May 29, 2009 8:32 AM:

    " Wharever it takes to get a settlement check! "

    ElBombero wrote on May 29, 2009 8:27 AM:

    " Interesting how some of the most violent ractions are from the most vehement christians. Why not read from the Torah and the Qur’an before each Council meeting too? "

    Journey wrote on May 29, 2009 8:18 AM:

    " BTW -- the Supreme Court of the United States will soon be comprised of 6 Catholics out of 9 Justices. Which way do you think they will go on this issue? :) "

    Whoa Nellie! wrote on May 29, 2009 8:11 AM:

    " These people are probably the same faux-PETA group we read about yesterday.

    They are so unhappy with their own pathetic lives they look to stir-up anything to fulfill their need of self-importance. Code name: Loser. "

    Journey wrote on May 29, 2009 8:02 AM:

    " Jenn H -- You've hit the nail on right on the head. My American Hindu, Jewish, Muslim and Buddhist friends ARE excluded when we invoke the name of Jesus at our PUBLIC gatherings. We can be still have prayers without being divisive at the same time. "

    Brian wrote on May 29, 2009 8:01 AM:

    " Evidently this group is not aware that the constitution does not allow a disestablishment of religon. "

    Brian wrote on May 29, 2009 7:58 AM:

    " Is this one of the groups that led the drive to have the cross removed from the great seal of the city of Los Angeles? They sure seem to fit the profile. What's their next project, have all the cities named after Saints
    be renamed? I wouldn't be surprised. "

    wtf wrote on May 29, 2009 7:57 AM:

    " Madison, Wisconsin???!!!? My first thought was: What business is it of theirs **what** we do in Lodi? Then, reading further, it seems someone here in town was upset. I have to echo Ms. Mounce's thoughts regarding the "offended" party not approaching the CC directly.

    Sounds like a tempest in a teapot.

    Besides JC doesn't seem to have helped our CC too much. LOL!

    They want diversity? Let the CC invite some Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, etc. to give the invocation...do this with the Christians in a rotating fashion. "

    Brian wrote on May 29, 2009 7:49 AM:

    " This freedom from religon group has large task ahead if they think they can stop city council meeetings all over the country from having prayer. It'll be a cold day in hell if they think they can get their way. "

    1143 wrote on May 29, 2009 7:48 AM:

    " The members of Freedom from Religion Foundation should GET A LIFE before THEY enter their FUTURE LIFE.
    Is this group an extension of ACORN? "

    yeah you wrote on May 29, 2009 7:34 AM:

    " I support whatever is legal. If it's illegal, I'm agin it. "

    ra wrote on May 29, 2009 7:18 AM:

    " In God We Trust. One Nation Under God. In no place does the constitution prohibit religion from institutions of government. There is no language in the Constitution that says "separation of church and state", it says "the government shall not make any official religion" - a response to the over-arching Anglican Church influence of the original European settlers. The lie of separation of church and state is an age old attempt to denigrate religious beliefs as less valuable than the secular values of someone without a faith. For those who practice a faith, religious values ARE their secular values. Therefore, how is it constitutional to exclude the religious individual's values from the public square? I'm not offended by other faiths and am comfortable with a roundtable of mainstream faiths represented at events. "

    mjp wrote on May 29, 2009 7:03 AM:

    " No one in this country is ever forced to participate in any form of religion. Reciting a prayer is not forcing religion on anyone. This the same argument that seeing a cross is offensive. I have attended many different religious ceremonies and have seen symbols of many religions around the world. I have never been offended or threatened by anyone else's beliefs. I believe that if a person is offended then they are the one with the problem and need to find out what they find so offensive. Adults understand that in a free country everyone is FREE to worship as they want to. Listening to a Muslim chant, for example, does not offend me. I respect that person's right to worship as they wish, I just would like the same courtesy. "

    Rhodie wrote on May 29, 2009 7:00 AM:

    " "Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you." Matthew 5:10 "

    jbhiker wrote on May 29, 2009 6:56 AM:

    " Well it wasn't working anyway. "

    Jenn H wrote on May 29, 2009 6:49 AM:

    " This has bothered me for some time. It is entirely inappropriate for any person to inject religion into a secular or governmental event. I have heard prayers where Jesus was mentioned at public events in Lodi and cringed in embarrassment for the person offering the prayer, as well as the impact such an offering has on those in the crowd who do not ascribe to those beliefs. It's not just the City Council. At the Veterans' Day event last November, the pastor said, "In Jesus' name we pray," and I was livid. My friend sitting next to me, who is Jewish, certainly did not feel included or respected as a participant in the event and THAT is completely unacceptable. Pastor Cummins and others like him need to wake up and realize that this is NOT a Christian country, state, county or city. This is AMERICA. If you can't celebrate and acknowledge diversity, you have a problem. If Lodi doesn't clean up its act, I hope the lawsuit is filed. "

    classof72 wrote on May 29, 2009 6:31 AM:

    " Why does this type of thing become an item for us to weight in on? The city council and staff have a multitude of things to work on that are more important than this issue. I do not want to pay one penny of our very limited tax dollars to have our council, city attorney, or other city staff to investigate the legal issues of prayers at meetings. Spend our precious tax dollars on things of value to the residents, i.e., reducing cost of public safety, improving parks, providing dependable and affordable utilities, etc. "

    Acampo_Mom wrote on May 29, 2009 6:10 AM:

    " These kind of lawsuits are so stupid!!!

    If someone doesn't want to participate in the prayer...then oh, I don't know...DON'T!

    I don't care WHAT religion you are, it won't kill you to stop and say thanks once in a while (to whatever god you believe in). "

    Comments on this story are now closed.



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