Connecting You to Your Community
Lodi, California •

Indexes

February 8th, 2010
February 6th, 2010
February 5th, 2010
February 4th, 2010
February 3rd, 2010
February 2nd, 2010
February 1st, 2010
ADVERTISEMENT
A same-sex marriage proponent, left, argues with an opponent in front of City Hall after the California State Supreme Court ruled in San Francisco on Tuesday. The California Supreme Court upheld a voter-approved ban on same-sex marriage Tuesday, but it also decided that the estimated 18,000 gay couples who tied the knot before the law took effect will stay wed. (AP Photo/Paul Sakuma)

California high court upholds gay marriage ban

By Lisa Leff
Associated Press Writer
Tuesday, May 26, 2009 2:06 PM PDT

The California Supreme Court upheld a voter-approved ban on same-sex marriage Tuesday, but it also decided that the estimated 18,000 gay couples who tied the knot before the law took effect will stay wed.

Demonstrators outside the court yelled "shame on you!" Gay rights activists immediately promised to resume their fight, saying they would go back to voters as early as next year in a bid to repeal the ban.

The 6-1 decision written by Chief Justice Ron George rejected an argument by gay rights activists that the ban revised the California Constitution's equal protection clause to such a dramatic degree that it first needed the Legislature's approval.

The court said the Californians have a right, through the ballot box, to change their constitution.

"In a sense, petitioners' and the attorney general's complaint is that it is just too easy to amend the California Constitution through the initiative process. But it is not a proper function of this court to curtail that process; we are constitutionally bound to uphold it," the ruling said.

The justices said the 136-page majority ruling does not speak to whether they agree with the voter-approved Proposition 8 or "believe it should be a part of the California Constitution."

They said they were "limited to interpreting and applying the principles and rules embodied in the California Constitution, setting aside our own personal beliefs and values."

You need to upgrade your Flash Player This movie requires Flash Player 8 or greater.

The announcement of the decision set off an outcry among a sea of demonstrators who had gathered in front of the San Francisco courthouse awaiting the ruling. Holding signs and many waving rainbow flags, they yelled "shame on you." Many people also held hands in a chain around an intersection in an act of protest.

Same-sex marriage is legal in Iowa, Maine, Vermont, Massachusetts and Connecticut.

The court said it is well-established legal principle that an amendment is not retroactive unless it is clear that the voters intended it to apply retroactively, and there was no such clear indication in Proposition 8.

That provided some relief for the 18,000 gay couples who married in the brief time same-sex marriage was legal last year but that wasn't enough to dull the anger over the ruling that banned gay marriage.

"It's not about whether we get to stay married. Our fight is far from over," said Jeannie Rizzo, 62, who was one of the lead plaintiffs along with her wife, Polly Cooper. "I have about 20 years left on this earth, and I'm going to continue to fight for equality every day."

Also in the crowd gathered at City Hall, near the courthouse, were Sharon Papo, 30, and Amber Weiss, 32, who were married on the first day gay marriage was legal last year, June 17.

"We're relieved our marriage was not invalidated, but this is a hollow victory because there are so many that are not allowed to marry those they love," Weiss said.

"I feel very uncomfortable being in a special class of citizens," Papo said.

Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger: Gay marriages to be legal some day

Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger said Tuesday that it's only a matter of time before gay marriage is recognized in California.

In a statement, Schwarzenegger did not directly address whether he agrees or disagrees with the California Supreme Court decision upholding last year's Proposition 8. Instead, he said he believes voters or the courts will one day legalize same-sex marriages.

He also applauded the court's decision to allow the 18,000 gay weddings that took place between June and November, the period when such marriages were legal.

"While I believe that one day either the people or courts will recognize gay marriage, as governor of California I will uphold the decision of the California Supreme Court," he said. "Regarding the 18,000 marriages that took place prior to Proposition 8's passage, the court made the right decision in keeping them intact."

Schwarzenegger also encouraged those who are rallying in response to the court's decision to do so peacefully.

The governor did not take questions from reporters during a morning appearance before a group advocating for small-business owners.

— The Associated Press

A small group of Proposition 8 supporters also had gathered outside the court to hear the ruling.

"A lot of people just assume we're religious nuts. We're not. But we are Christians and we believe in the Bible," said George Popko, 22, a student at American River College in Sacramento, where the student government officially endorsed Proposition 8.

The state Supreme Court had ruled last May that it was unconstitutional to deny gay couples the right to wed. Many same-sex couples had rushed to get married before the November vote on Proposition 8, fearing it could be passed. When it was, gay rights activists went back to the court arguing that the ban was improperly put to voters and amounted to a revision — which required legislative approval — not an amendment.

That was the issue justices decided Tuesday.

"After comparing this initiative measure to the many other constitutional changes that have been reviewed and evaluated in numerous prior decisions of this court, we conclude Proposition 8 constitutes a constitutional amendment rather than a constitutional revision," the ruling said.

Justice Carlos Moreno wrote the dissenting opinion disagreeing that the proposition did not change the constitution's equal protection clause. He said the law denying same-sex couples the right to wed "strikes at the core of the promise of equality that underlies our California Constitution." He said it represents a "drastic and far-reaching change."

"Promising equal treatment to some is fundamentally different from promising equal treatment for all," said Moreno, who had been mentioned as a possible contender for the U.S. Supreme Court. "Promising treatment that is almost equal is fundamentally different from ensuring truly equal treatment."

Reader Feedback

Lodian wrote on Jun 2, 2009 11:44 PM:

" dyan: If you are worried about "paying the costs" for people then how about fighting against all those men that leave women with babies to raise on their own? Your taxes are being spent for these heterosexuals irresponsible behavior. Where's your outrage about that fact? "

Lodian wrote on Jun 2, 2009 11:35 PM:

" dyan: We have choice in this country. We are free to make those choices for ourselves.

Gay people aren't asking you to "pay the costs" for them to marry. All you have to do is leave them alone to live their married lives, just like you. "

Billy Rubin wrote on Jun 2, 2009 10:27 PM:

" dyan sounds like she could be in Peoria. "

dyan wrote on Jun 2, 2009 9:27 PM:

" Now that you raise the point, why should those of us who do not engage in self-districtive behavior pay the costs of those who do? Harmful Life styles are a CHOICE. That's why your "cause"
holds no water as a "civil rights" issue. You know this as well as I do, but the game continues. "

Lodian wrote on Jun 2, 2009 8:09 PM:

" dyan: Don't forget all the women and children with AIDS in this country. Should they also be barred from rights and opportunities as well? "

Lodian wrote on Jun 2, 2009 8:07 PM:

" dyan: Again you avoid the question. Your ignorance is no excuse. I'll repeat it for you. What "health hazard" is exclusive to gay people? If you'd like to remove rights and opportunities from other Americans with health issues in this country then you'd probably like to start with smokers, drinkers and anyone with cancer. Should all these people be barred from certain rights and opportunities in this country because they have health issues? "

dyan wrote on Jun 2, 2009 7:17 PM:

" nice try, Lodian. Anyone whose not "ignorant knows that 90% of AIDS patients are gay. The rest IV drug users. Are you going to try and deny that one? "

Lodian wrote on Jun 2, 2009 3:01 PM:

" Geez, dyan, you try every weird angle that your twisted mind can come up with to try and diminish gay people.

You said "But why should government endorse an activity that has proven to be a health hazard..."

So, dyan, what "health hazard" is exclusive to gay people? I can't wait to hear the ignorant argument dyan will surely put forth so as to continue to deny gay people the same opportunities as all Americans. "

dyan wrote on Jun 2, 2009 8:52 AM:

" It looks like Voter did her homework. But why should government endorse an activity that has proven to be a health hazard when at the same time, they have put themselves in the business of promoting healthy life styles? "

Gator wrote on May 29, 2009 6:12 PM:

" Excellent Voter, the problem I have with those rights is they are basic human
rights and should go to every citizen of this country, Gay, straight or in-between…. "

stantaves wrote on May 29, 2009 6:08 PM:

" Some people are concerned that marriage gives more rights to heteros than it does to homosexual couples. Maybe, but that's over now. You see, because it is unlawful to discriminate the govt in the State of California will soon be extricating itself from the marriage business. In other words, all couples will need civil contracts if they want protection under the law. Problem solved. "

sam wrote on May 29, 2009 4:55 PM:

" Voter, thanks for the education. I had no idea that a civil union and a marriage in our state differed so much. "

voter wrote on May 29, 2009 4:01 PM:

" The GAO prepared a report that listed 1049 FEDERAL benefits married couples receive that are denied to those with a civil union because of the defense of marriage act and others. Here are some of the biggies.

Joint parental rights of children
Joint adoption
Status as "next-of-kin" for hospital visits and medical decisions
Right to make a decision about the disposal of loved ones remains
Immigration and residency for partners from other countries
Crime victims recovery benefits
Domestic violence protection orders
Judicial protections and immunity
Automatic inheritance in the absence of a will
Public safety officers death benefits
Spousal veterans benefits
Social Security
Medicare
Joint filing of tax returns
Wrongful death benefits for surviving partner and children
Bereavement or sick leave to care for partner or children
Child support
Joint Insurance Plans
Tax credits including: Child tax credit, Hope and lifetime learning credits
Deferred Compensation for pension and IRAs
Estate and gift tax benefits
Welfare and public assistance
Joint housing for elderly
Credit protection
Medical care for survivors and dependents of certain veterans

Most of these benefits cannot be privately arranged or contracted for within the legal system. "

Gator wrote on May 29, 2009 3:28 PM:

" I’m at a loss voter or could be a little dense but more than a thousand bennies… Holly swamp water Batman what have I missed??? "

onestooge wrote on May 28, 2009 11:49 PM:

" yes on 8! the truth won. it's not natural nor were we made to marry & have sexual relations with the same sex. it is a sin and sodom & gemorrah were destroyed due to this. it is not a good thing to teach our kids that this kind of living is good. "

voter wrote on May 28, 2009 8:56 PM:

" There are more than a thousand missed benefits on the federal level alone. Civil unions and marriage are not the same thing. "

tosh conn wrote on May 28, 2009 8:31 PM:

" I am missing something. What "rights" are gays missing that they want? If there is a missed "right" have the legislature add it to the civil union laws. You can call it "marriage" and I can call a horse a cow, but it changes nothing. A gay marriage will always be an anomoly no matter what happens in the future. If all people share all rights, what is wrong ?? Marriage is a convoked priviledge, not a right. "

Rhodie wrote on May 28, 2009 12:42 PM:

" Last thing BobbyG, I do have to say that I respect you (and a couple others here) more even though I disagree with you on this issue than some on my side of the issue simply because of the generally courtious attitude. I'd rather debate respectfully all day long with someone I disagree with than spend a few minutes with someone I agree with that is a BU**. Ya know what I mean? "

Rhodie wrote on May 28, 2009 12:34 PM:

" I'll say it again, I know there are probably homosexual people who live a far better life than I. But that doesn't mean I have to condone behavior I think is wrong. Not condemning, simply ot supporting or helping. There are a lot of behaviors I would not help or support, only a few are ever on the ballots. "

Rhodie wrote on May 28, 2009 12:31 PM:

" Bobbyg, I try very hard not to judge anyone based on a group they associate with. Instead I choose to look at the individual as an individual. This is true for groups I disagree with as well as those I associate with myself. It is the actions of the people I meet that I catagorize as a plus or minus.

Labeling because of group identification is a great disservice to everyone. You never know who you might miss simply because of the person is associated with a group you (general 'you') don't like.

That said I do have to admit that the groups an individual associates with can say a bit about their personality. I would have a hard time talking with a member of Bikers for Satan or such simply because of the group mentality and would wonder why someone would choose to hang out with them. "

bobbyg wrote on May 28, 2009 11:52 AM:

" Rhodie, I think some of the issues that people miss are that many churches teach that gays are some loose, free love, all about the sex and no morals kinda people. We are not. Many of us have grown up in and curently attend church. We are God loving and believing Christians. The events or craziness that you see in being taught by some religious zealouts are a extremely small faction of the gay community. Just like the people who bomb health clinics or protest funerals of Active Duty Military are a small fraction of the Christian group.

Please dont think that we are all the same in any group, (not just talking to Rhodie).

We have all grown up dreaming about how and what we want out marriage to look like and what we will wear and what music will play and so on.. We all want the responsibility and respect that comes with the term marriage. We are not looking for anything less. We know we have a long way to go. We understand that this is a social issue that we have to teach people who we are and who we arent. "

Rhodie wrote on May 28, 2009 8:40 AM:

" "And I do not work to demonstrate flaws in Christianity (not sure where that one came from)."

Sorry Lodian, I see you trying to deconstruct the validity of the Bible to replace it with current social political correctiveness. How many times have you made referance to the West Wing/Youtube clip where the fictional president berates a reporter from a christian paper? How many times have you argued the outdatedness of the Bible vs. defended it's teachings on the boards here?

It's just my opinion and it may be wrong but based on what I see you write here about Christian teachings, I have a hard time believing you take the faith seriously. Obviously you would think you do. So let me ask you this, would you stand before friends, family and strangers to defend a Biblical/Christian teaching and risk losing them or would you say they are free to say what they want? "

Rhodie wrote on May 28, 2009 8:34 AM:

" In order: "Do your views on gay marriage come from your Bible?"

It is a mix between Biblical teachings and (honestly) social tradition.

"And does *your* Bible say divorce is a sin?"

It does and, thus, why I work with couples to help them overcome the temptation of divorce.

"Can you tell me why so many people fight so incredibly hard against gay marriage, but do not make an issue of divorce?"

I can not speak for other people but there are measures in the elections concerning gay marriage now. IF a measure was on a ballot I think you would see the same kind of aggressive defense of marriage against divorce.

"Why is gay marriage more important for them to fight against?"

Again, it is the hot topic and the one that is currently being fought publicly. But a lot churches are just as active in fighting divorce, it's just not a public battle.

And I should add that my brother has had a divorce. His first marriage ended due to her viewing marriage as an enhanced form of dating with tax benifits. "

Lodian wrote on May 28, 2009 1:04 AM:

" Rhodie: I've already asked this question, but I'll ask again. Do your views on gay marriage come from your Bible? And does your Bible say divorce is a sin? Can you tell me why so many people fight so incredibly hard against gay marriage, but do not make an issue of divorce? Why is gay marriage more important for them to fight against? "

Lodian wrote on May 28, 2009 12:57 AM:

" Rhodie: I did not call you a bigot. And I do not work to demonstrate flaws in Christianity (not sure where that one came from). It is, however, a problem when those that profess to be Christians fight so hard against gay marriage as if it's on the top of their "to do" list in life to make sure a segment of society, their fellow Americans, are denied their rights in this country. So, how do you explain the lack of outrage about divorce and the overwhelming millions spent on anti gay marriage support as well as the ranting, raving and "hate" we see towards gay people, and gay marriage? Again I ask... where is the outrage against divorce? It's just not there. "

Rhodie wrote on May 27, 2009 11:54 PM:

" Rhodie: I have not seen you speak out against divorce the way you speak out against gay marriage here on these blogs."

First, when appropriate I have spoken out about opposing divorce as a socially acceptable solution to minor tiffs between husband and wife. Which leads us into secondly, there have not been articles and resulting blogs about divorce that I have seen on the boards.

And while I have openly said I am against same-sex marriage I have never condemned homosexual people, even admitting that there are most likely homosexual people who live a better life than I. In fact, when I have been more outspoken (mostly against R.F. when he was around but others as well) who use select Bible passages to justify hateful behavior.

I do pose questions and challenges to supporters of the lifestyle because, since I think it is wrong, I want to demonstrate the flaws (I see) in it's social acceptance. Much the same way you and others work to demonstrate the flaws you see in Christianity. Why am I a bigot and those condemning Christianity not? "

Lodian wrote on May 27, 2009 11:23 PM:

" Rhodie: I have not seen you speak out against divorce the way you speak out against gay marriage here on these blogs. That is why I asked the question. So would you be okay with gay marriage if it were a "pay up" and get married sort of thing like you said about divorce? The Bible talks a lot about the sin of divorce and most anti gay marriage people, like yourself, never really address the fact that the Bible speaks out a lot about the sin of divorce. In fact, it's crystal clear about divorce. Where is the outrage about the 50% divorce rate in this country? Where are the millions to ban divorce in this country? Where are all the masses of people in the streets fighting against divorce?

I think you know the answer here. It's bigotry. "

Rhodie wrote on May 27, 2009 10:46 PM:

" Lodian wrote " Rhodie: Why do you accept divorce and not gay marriage? "

What makes you think I accept divorce? Currently there are no legal battles to be fought on divorce so the only thing I can do is work with organizations that work twords making marriages stronger and helping people deal with the trouble issues that usually lead to divorce. Been doing it for 8-ish years.

I do think that divorce should be made a more uncomfortable action with the exception of for safty reasons (and I include unfaithful spouses as a safty issue due to the large number of STD's that may be passed on). Personally I think a percentage of the couples financial holdings should be given to coffers of the residential district. Divorce in Lodi, pay up, kind of thing. Of course there would be cosiderations made for the couples financial situations, but in general divorce becomes less of an option when it becomes uncomfortable.

I also think any one who is divorced should not be in an elected position since if they can't keep one set of vows how can we trust them. "

Lodian wrote on May 27, 2009 6:33 PM:

" Rhodie: Why do you accept divorce and not gay marriage? "

Rhodie wrote on May 27, 2009 3:49 PM:

" "And it only carries some truths about the word of God - like love. A true God doesn't bring himself to be mad or vengeful. That wouldn't make him very loving now would it?"

And here we have the pendulum swing of theological thought. I have heard this train of thought many times before, "If God is Love how can he send people to Hell?", "God is love so he forgives everything I do" and "It's easier to get forgiveness than permission".

I suppose, under this train of thought that a loving parent then would not punish a child who has done something wrong?

Society has been striving to turn God into a kind and loving God who would never lift finger out of anger. But The Bible is very clear that while he is "Father", he is also "KING". And a king defends his kingdom. There is an army of God, why would there be such if God had no anger?

Proof of God's anger; what did Jesus tell Judas at the last supper? It would have been better for Judas if he had never been born. Certainly sounds angry. "

lodi boy wrote on May 27, 2009 3:18 PM:

" If homosexuality is a sin - remember, true Christians must carry out the words in the bible. Gather the villagers and throw stones right? Isn't that what you god would want? Stoning?

The bible is NOT GOD. And it only carries some truths about the word of God - like love. A true God doesn't bring himself to be mad or vengeful. That wouldn't make him very loving now would it? "

lodi boy wrote on May 27, 2009 3:14 PM:

" Yes, I'd like to know why some Christians pick and choose which 'rules' or 'laws' they follow from the bible.

There are many laws that society breaks every day. It's even a sin/abomination to let guys cut or shave their hair/facial hair. Shellfish is unclean. WORKING ON THE SABBATH IS A BIG SIN - and the bible states those who work on the Sabbath should be stoned to death.

Do any Christians follow every single rule? Have you stoned people for working Sundays? Do you cut your hair? Remember - those are mortal sins. "

isit? wrote on May 27, 2009 2:50 PM:

" is it wrong for 2 women to love each other? HEY live and let live! "

Lodian wrote on May 27, 2009 1:53 AM:

" Cogito wrote "Kes, the Bible is quite clear on homosexuality."

Cogito: Since you think gay marriage should not be legal, per the Bible, then why is divorce allowed to remain legal? After all, divorce is spoken of many times in the Bible and it is not acceptable. Why is it okay for you to pick and choose this way? "

95242 wrote on May 27, 2009 1:21 AM:

" kes wrote on May 26, 2009 5:12 PM:
" Cogito, currently polygamy is a criminal offense. Do you propose that same-sex marriage be criminalized? "
Yes, it should be a strike in California! Because everyone knows that this could be potentially dangerous! lol "

95242 wrote on May 27, 2009 1:07 AM:

" Just let them get married and then they can be as miserable as everybody else! "

Half Full wrote on May 26, 2009 9:17 PM:

" The Gay community does not accept Prop 8 was passed, and they failed. While California is full of card-carrying liberals many of those Democratic demographics do not approve of the homosexual lifestyle: Blacks, Latinos, etc.

This, unfortunately, is far from over. What a huge waste of money. Imagine all of the good that could be done with the millions of dollars. Instead the lawyers, strategists, ad agencies, and media will make tons of money from the many, many print, radio, and tv ads. "

kes wrote on May 26, 2009 7:27 PM:

" Cogito, I enjoyed the conversation. And thanks for making me think about my positions a bit - kept my brain cells active today. "

Cogito wrote on May 26, 2009 7:13 PM:

" Ahhhh, kes, we agree. "

kes wrote on May 26, 2009 7:08 PM:

" Cogito, I agree. If they could write logical laws dealing with the legal and/or monetary side of polygamy I have to admit, I've no problem with it. There are already laws in place for marriage between two people so gay marriage - between two people - would not cause the same kinds of headaches. Then again, with multiple divorces and re-marriages and mixed (but "traditional") families, I wonder how hard it would really be? I think children are more harmed by multiple step parents, with legions of step- and/or half- relatives than in these non-traditional families. "

imadog2 wrote on May 26, 2009 7:06 PM:

" Watch out! Next thing you know kids will be dancing real close and growing their hair way past their shoulders, just like they do in Iowa!! Very "normal" parents produce most of the "deviant" gays and lesbian folks you speak of. They weren't all test tube babies gone bad. You want to talk about the law, do it. Keep the name calling to yourself children. "

kes wrote on May 26, 2009 7:02 PM:

" Again, and back on topic, my main argument is that the Court created 2 groups of people within the gay community. Those already married and those who can't marry. The Court needs to say either yes, it's legal or no, it's not. This legal-but-not-really-legal-well-okay-sort-of-legal-in-some-cases decision just begs for lawsuits to be filed. "

Cogito wrote on May 26, 2009 6:58 PM:

" Kes, much of the same argument has been used for years to foment fear against gay marriages. I don't think there would be enough polygamist marriages to cause monetary harm. I think the number would be pretty far right of the decimal. But it may stop business from setting up shop in Utah. "

kes wrote on May 26, 2009 6:52 PM:

" Cogito, I'm sure I'll be flamed for this but: If I were to use a religious freedom argument, I would say if your religion allows for polygamy I really have no problem with it. What people do amongst themselves, if they are TRULY consenting adults on an equal level with NO co-ersion involved, is none of my business. However, on a secular level-- I think legalizing polygamy would create highly complex issues with employer benefits, inheritance and tax laws so no, I would not advocate it. "

Cogito wrote on May 26, 2009 6:22 PM:

" No kes, I'm not against gay marriage. I just wonder how you can be for non traditional marriage on one hand, and against it on another. That's what defines a hypocrite. As it stands, in California, gay marriage is against the law, just like polygamy. The only difference being there are no grandfathered polygamist marriages. "

Gator wrote on May 26, 2009 6:20 PM:

" Where in the constitution does it say anyone has the right to get Married, sorry no one is guaranteed that right….cogito was right about the Black vote
And the Latino vote but left off a growing population in this country, the Islamic vote and there is no way that faction will ever vote for Gay anything.. "

deblaw wrote on May 26, 2009 6:12 PM:

" If enough people throw a fit they can legalize any deviant behavior as we have seen with the gays. "

dyan wrote on May 26, 2009 5:39 PM:

" What kind of silly argument is that? Homosexuality was illegal at one time.
Just as simple to change the status of polygamy. "

T & C wrote on May 26, 2009 5:31 PM:

" Rom 1:26-27 "Says it all!" I am entitled to my opinion and I feel Gay/Lesbians have no business Marrying! "

kes wrote on May 26, 2009 5:12 PM:

" Cogito, currently polygamy is a criminal offense. Do you propose that same-sex marriage be criminalized? "

dyan wrote on May 26, 2009 4:36 PM:

" No one wants to talk about how legalizing this narcissistic pleasure affects kids and families. It's all about me,myself and I. Thank God I grew up in a "normal" family where I had normal sex role models. It's as Dr. Steiner describes role development and identification: Same sex parent is the teacher. Opposite sex parent sets the standard. "

Cogito wrote on May 26, 2009 4:36 PM:

" Kes, why would you discriminate against 3 consenting adults who want to get married? "

dyan wrote on May 26, 2009 4:31 PM:

" Jaysaw: You can't sue the Supreme Court.
They allowed the 18K to stand because they had foolishly ruled gay marriage was legal before the constitution was changed. Talk about "legislating from the bench!" That was a perfect example. "

kes wrote on May 26, 2009 4:29 PM:

" And just so people don't get the wrong idea, no I'm not advocating polygamy. But a contract between 2 consenting adults? Yes, I can get behind that. "

kes wrote on May 26, 2009 4:28 PM:

" In this country, polygamy only seems to exist in religious sects. Wait - religious people telling other religious people who they can and can't marry? Hmm. So gays apparently aren't religious enough and polygamists are too religious. Wow I have an idea! Maybe we should make a country where, I dunno, religion is taken out of the equation when the State makes laws? Yeah that would be something. Then no religious group could force other religious or non-religious groups into submission under their religious laws. Saaay, what a concept! "

dyan wrote on May 26, 2009 4:16 PM:

" The argument that not allowing gay marriage is discrimination is ridiculous. Using that logic, polygamy must be allowed and marrying brothers and sisters as well. How did we get so crazy in the culture? "

Jaysam1 wrote on May 26, 2009 4:05 PM:

" Sam - personally - I have an opinion as to why the courts decided that they would allow the 18K marriages that have already taken place. If they overturn those marriages, they then get sued. If they don't - they get sued. Additionally - if sometime down the road the constitution is changed to reflect gay marriage, then they have additional problems with the ones that were already married, lost their "rights" to be married and now they can be married again.

I do feel it's discriminatory and it should be one way or the other. Unfortunately - we don't live in a black and white society - everything has a grey area - and many shades of grey at that. "

Cogito wrote on May 26, 2009 4:02 PM:

" Sam, I believe you'll find the answer to your question under article 1, section 10 of the Constitution. That defines civil ex post facto law. "

bobbyg wrote on May 26, 2009 3:44 PM:

" for those interested there will be a local peaceful protest rally at the Stockton City hall tonight after 5pm "

kes wrote on May 26, 2009 3:26 PM:

" weezer, I think you're right, none of us will convince anyone of anything, all our minds are made up one way or another. My point in speaking up today is the same as Sam's, to comment on the ruling itself as being somewhat strange. "

weezer wrote on May 26, 2009 3:18 PM:

" I guess we've already made up our minds on this topic and no blog/comment could change that.

So, why not just allow it?
Everyone's accountable for their own actions anyway. "

sam wrote on May 26, 2009 3:16 PM:

" Jaysam1, my point for coming on this blog was to express my confusion with the courts ruling.

If the ban stands and the people married before the ban are ruled as being legally married, isn't the ban then discriminating against all gays not married before the vote?

Some gays get to marry while others cannot. Don't you think this is discriminatory? Just curious.

I do not care if you are for or against gay marriage. I think this ruling is going to create a mess. IMHO. "

weezer wrote on May 26, 2009 3:15 PM:

" Rom 1:26-27 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

If God gave them over already, why bother to include God, the bible and church in the discussion? "

kes wrote on May 26, 2009 3:14 PM:

" Lodiboy -- that's the thing with "church folk" -- good people for the most part but they do like to pick and choose which laws God "really" meant. My beef with _this_ ruling is the neighbors on my right are a legally married gay couple...and the neighbors on my left are a gay couple who cannot marry. The Court chickened out and created a bigger mess with now 2 classes of people _within_ the gay community, let alone between gays and straights. Now we have 3 classes in CA - hetero marrieds, gay marrieds, and gay-can't-be-marrieds. "

4AStrongLodi wrote on May 26, 2009 3:13 PM:

" Civil unions do not carry the same rights as marriage. Civil unions do not allow the decisions of the partner to overrule medical decisions made by the family. It also does not carry any inheritance rights.

So, it's not equal at all. I think you'd see a lot less of the gay community pushing for same-sex marriage if they were truly the same thing.

By the way, how about we all have civil unions and not call it marriage anymore? Just let religions have ceremonial marriages. Then the government doesn't have to be involved. "

kes wrote on May 26, 2009 3:05 PM:

" The big difference between a "traditional marriage" and a "civil union" is that a Civil Union can be done away with by a vote of the people, it seems marriage can't be. Lawyers will tell domestic partners to solidify the relationship via legal paperwork (such as with an iron-clad Will, legal, court adoptions of children, etc.) regardless of whether or not they have filed as domestic partners with the State. Why? Because you never know when those rights granted by vote will be done away with by vote. "

lodi boy wrote on May 26, 2009 3:02 PM:

" If you choose to condemn those who break Leviticus rules then good luck trying to get out of murder charges when you stone your neighbor to death.

(or when you sacrifice and burn animals in the backyard to please God) "

kes wrote on May 26, 2009 3:01 PM:

" In my church it was made clear that marriage was created at the time of Adam & Eve, WELL before Abraham, et al. I agree- Bible shows what happens if you "break the rules" (again, see David & Solomon's messed up families). The BIBLE is as clear on homosexuality as it is on adultery (same punishment folks), but the STATE cannot use the Bible as its sole platform for Law, the Federal Constitution is clear on that. The State is to remain neutral on religious matters even if we cannot be. "

Jaysam1 wrote on May 26, 2009 3:01 PM:

" And another thing Kes - you're right - the State needs to seperate itself from the Church - hence the definition that marriage is between a man and a woman and a civil union - which comes with the exact same benefits - belongs to the gay and lesbian communinity. Marriage is something that is designated by the churches. civil unions are designated by the state. Gays and lesbians already have the same rights as married couples - they just don't get to use the word "marriage". That's it. "

lodi boy wrote on May 26, 2009 2:57 PM:

" The laws of Moses do not supersede the word of Jesus.

The old testament should not apply to this day and age. And if you truly believe in every single word of Leviticus, then you MUST abide to all rules about diet, clothing, work, slavery, etc.

You CANNOT select which verse you choose to use against any group. "

4AStrongLodi wrote on May 26, 2009 2:51 PM:

" Rhodie - First, it is not "my group". I am not gay, but just feel that everyone deserves equal rights.

And, again, polygamy is different. Heterosexuals can not have polygamist marriages, so neither should gays. It's about equal rights for everyone.

Heterosexuals can marry, so gays should also be able to also.

I am so sad for our State. We used to be so progressive and embraced each other's differences. Now, other states have advanced more than us. What's happened here?

We are now a State that dislikes each other's differences so much that we go to Court over it. Why can't we all just let each other live our own lives? It's a sad day that California has become what we so often laugh at the South about. "

Jaysam1 wrote on May 26, 2009 2:50 PM:

" Sam - again - it's called Reading Comprehension 101A. Maybe I should have put this after my statement about divorce (eye roll) (note sarcasm here) (I am just kidding).....apparently no one has a sense of humor or sees sarcasm when they read it. My statement had nothing to do with my views on marriage, whether or not I take marriage vows seriously etc - but the mere fact that over half of all marriages end in divorce. Therefore - the question remains - why should gays and lesbians get a free pass from having to deal with that.....

I refrain from speaking my opinion about anything serious as this on the LNS blogs - people are too quick to attack and insult like a pack of rabid dogs in order to "force" their opinions on everyone else. Especially if you don't agree with gay marriage. Then you get called a bigot and a racist. Why bother......too many more important things to deal with in the world than this..... "

Cogito wrote on May 26, 2009 2:50 PM:

" Kes, the Bible is quite clear on homosexuality. The examples you give are still heterosexual in nature. Any church who would perform gay weddings could not be biblical. I support non church associated gay marriage, or civil unions. Gay marriage has no place in a traditional, Bible based church. "

weezer wrote on May 26, 2009 2:31 PM:

" kes, you should have a timeline separating abraham and jacob with david and solomon. there was a rule change in between... and we all know what happened to solomon and david. "

Whoa Nellie! wrote on May 26, 2009 2:28 PM:

" First, let me say that I know many gay people here in Lodi, from my college years, and in my extended family. I love them all.

I think that gay couples should have every right married people do, like someone who posted earlier- the alimony, child support, retirement fund, etc.... Gay couples should have the right to pull the plug on a partner as would a husband or wife, get the benefits, etc etc...

With that said, I think that "marriage" is between a man and a woman. I would use the term "Civil Union" for gay couples, and yet they would have every single right as us poor married folk. "

sam wrote on May 26, 2009 2:18 PM:

" Jaysam1, I do stand corrected... kes was quoting you.
Sorry. "

sam wrote on May 26, 2009 2:10 PM:

" Ahh Jaysam1, your disrespect for institute of marriage is showing.

Being married by a judge who is a dear friend is hardly a " justice of the peace shotgun wedding".

I take my marriage vows seriously. Obviously you do not. That is your choice.

Your quote "I say - go for it - get married - and then have to deal with all the BS that comes with it - like divorce, alimony, child support, college funds, retirement funds, homes, cars, savings etc. Why should anyone NOT have to deal with that??? ""

You equate marriage with divorce? Sad for you.

... and by the way, kes was quoting Rhodie, not you. "

Jaysam1 wrote on May 26, 2009 1:59 PM:

" Kes - you completely misread my post. It is not about "my" church - it is about the major religions that backed prop 8. If you truly know what you're talking about - you'd already know the churches I was referring to.

Sam - if you had read my post - I stated that marriage was a ceremony instilled by the churches - it had nothing to do with your justice of the peace shotgun wedding or whatever it is you had.

AGAIN - people not reading posts - or maybe it's time we all take Reading Comprehension 101a. It's more apparent that it's needed in our current world and specifically to those on this blog. "

kes wrote on May 26, 2009 1:50 PM:

" BTW for those making the if-gay-marriage-is-passed-then-next-polygomy-will-be-legal argument, tell me - how many wives did Abraham have? Jacob? King David? Solomon? We should all follow the "Adam-and-Eve" model as long as we aren't patriarchs of one or two great religions, right? Point being using the Good_Book as an argument when it shows clear examples of men whom God himself calls "righteous" not following the one-man-one-woman model makes no sense. The State should look at all issues separate from any religious beliefs. Once that happens I don't see a valid argument against any two consenting adults being allowed to marry. "

sam wrote on May 26, 2009 1:49 PM:

" kes, great blog ! "

weezer wrote on May 26, 2009 1:43 PM:

" wanna have your cake and eat it too? "

kes wrote on May 26, 2009 1:40 PM:

" quote "There shouldn't be any question about whether or not gay and lesbians marry - in the churches' eyes." --Which church? To some churches gay marriage is perfectly okay. The State, on the other hand, should be interested in the civil aspect of marriage, not what "your" church thinks of it. The Court has created 2 classes of people with at least the appearance of unequal protection under the law, which pretty well guarantees immediate lawsuit filings. If they're gonna ban it they need to ban it outright, it makes no sense this way. "

Rhodie wrote on May 26, 2009 1:37 PM:

" 4AStrongLodi wrote:
" Rhodie - Quit repeating the Limbaugh mantra. That's the oldest retort yet, and it still makes no sense.

Equal rights means that two adults can marry, just like any other adult, no matter what sex."

First, I don't listen to Rush. And the question does make sense. It proves you don't want equal rights for all, just for your own group. This is shown by your retort that it means only two and you are willing to discriminate against polygamy. How can you justify that? Also, with your two adults means you are also accepting of brother and sister marrying or uncle and niece as long as they are of age.

I don't intend to bring God into this (but your comment does show a different discrimination you have) but rather I will keep this on a societal and intellectual level.

So that brings us back to the original question: Why do you discriminate against a group of people and their right to marry who ever they want while yelling fro your right to marry whoever you want? "

sam wrote on May 26, 2009 1:36 PM:

" Jaysam1, I am a heterosexual and am married. We have been for years. I have never been divorced. We were not married in any church. We were married in a court house by a judge.

So your comment that marriage is a religious ceremony isn't really true. I know many people who were married in a civil ceremony. "

dyan wrote on May 26, 2009 1:26 PM:

" Obviously, the State Supreme Court did not buy the "equal rights" argument. You guys will have to come up with a new one. "

Jaysam1 wrote on May 26, 2009 1:25 PM:

" See the thing is - marriage is not a constitutional - nor a CIVIL RIGHT. It is a ceremony that was instilled by the churches many, many thousands of years ago - before people starting being all "We're here, we're queer - so deal with it". Marriage is something that the churches deemed a union between a man and a woman. Not a man and ten women, or a woman and a woman or a man, a woman and their dog. There shouldn't be any question about whether or not gay and lesbians marry - in the churches' eyes. This will merely become a pet project of the ACLU (they always fight for the minority - even if it's without merit).

I say - go for it - get married - and then have to deal with all the BS that comes with it - like divorce, alimony, child support, college funds, retirement funds, homes, cars, savings etc. Why should anyone NOT have to deal with that??? "

LodiReaderFromStockton wrote on May 26, 2009 1:21 PM:

" To should have been "two"... Also, how can something be illegal for some and legal for others?

Those of you who applaud this just wait until they want to take a right away from you.

Doesn't the Constitution say all men are created equal? Not all straight men are created equal. "

LodiReaderFromStockton wrote on May 26, 2009 1:16 PM:

" While I am a hetero female I think it's a sad day when it's ok to take away rights of others for no reason other than people are biggoted and judgemental.

Now you have to classes those who got married before the ban and those who can never get married. The courts really effed up on this one. "

sam wrote on May 26, 2009 1:16 PM:

" 4AStrongLodi, I am not well versed in Constitutional Law, but if the ban stands and the people married before the ban are ruled as being legally married, isn't the ban then discriminating against all gays not married before the vote?

Some get to marry while others cannot? "

dyan wrote on May 26, 2009 1:08 PM:

" If I were you guys, I'd move to MA where you can live happily ever after.
At least we don't have to live with any more of this perversion. "

4AStrongLodi wrote on May 26, 2009 1:02 PM:

" Rhodie - Quit repeating the Limbaugh mantra. That's the oldest retort yet, and it still makes no sense.

Equal rights means that two adults can marry, just like any other adult, no matter what sex.

BTW, if you take the Libertarian approach (which I don't), why would it matter the relationship between two people that get married. Is it really for the government to get involved in?

But, trying to make your point by using outlandish examples only proves that you don't have a solid argument against it. Of course, I'm sure you'll bring god into it too. "

Rhodie wrote on May 26, 2009 12:41 PM:

" "This ruling continues to discriminate against the rights that everyone deserves, as mandated by the U.S. Constiution."

4AStrongLodi, just in inquiry for debate purposes only, where do you draw the line for marriage rights? One man many wives or vice versa? Cousins, brother and sister or all the various related couples? Lower age limits?

Also, where in the U.S. constitution does it grant the rights on who you can marry? "

Cogito wrote on May 26, 2009 12:37 PM:

" 4, "enslaving people" is unconstitutional. 13th amendment. "

Cogito wrote on May 26, 2009 12:34 PM:

" Lodibound, I think that you, and the others who tied the knot during the marriage window, will serve as an example that the sky will not fall. This issues future depends on how it is handled by the 18,000 person test group now in place. Being overly demanding may hurt those who wish to go after you, so be careful who you anger. "

4AStrongLodi wrote on May 26, 2009 12:32 PM:

" deblaw - Time to read a book on our government. The Courts are there to uphold the laws and Constitution, not the will of the people.

I guess if the will of the people is to return to enslaving people, you'd support that too?

This ruling continues to discriminate against the rights that everyone deserves, as mandated by the U.S. Constiution. "

deblaw wrote on May 26, 2009 12:28 PM:

" The courts did what's right and held up the will of the people! "

lodibound wrote on May 26, 2009 12:18 PM:

" Well, contrary to your beliefs, I was lucky enough to have been one of the 18,000 who were married while it was legal in California. My heart goes out to the rest of our brothers and sisters who will not have access to the same rights as a man and woman. Where is the equality so expected in America? "

Cogito wrote on May 26, 2009 11:39 AM:

" Amber and Rachel, maybe if President Obama hadn't expressed his anti gay marriage opinion, and maybe if 70% of the black vote hadn't went "yes" on 8, you could get married. But, this is a democracy, and the people have spoken. The courts did what's right and held up the will of the people. I may not agree with it, but it's now part of the state constitution. "

shaggy wrote on May 26, 2009 11:21 AM:

" Yes!!!! "

Lodian wrote on May 26, 2009 11:13 AM:

" This is far from over. "

lodibound wrote on May 26, 2009 11:09 AM:

" This is wrong!!!! Where are our rights??!

Amber and Rachel,Lodi CA "

Comments on this story are now closed.