Connecting You to Your Community
Lodi, California •

Story Tools

Email this story | Print this story

Indexes

November 21st, 2008
November 20th, 2008
November 19th, 2008
November 18th, 2008
November 17th, 2008
November 15th, 2008
November 14th, 2008
ADVERTISEMENT
In a blur of motion, a Joe Serna Jr. Charter School student rushes past a composite image of the Statue of Liberty and American flag made up of student's pictures on Monday afternoon. Parents and staff at the school are debating whether or not students should recite the Pledge of Allegiance. (Dan Evans/News-Sentinel)

Pledge debate

Joe Serna Jr. Charter School discusses Pledge of Allegiance

By Amanda Dyer
News-Sentinel Staff Writer
Updated: Tuesday, February 12, 2008 6:31 AM PST

To pledge or not to pledge? That's the question at Joe Serna Jr. Charter School.

School officials have decided to reexamine a policy regarding whether students should be required to say the Pledge of Allegiance after a group of parents took issue with the line "one nation under God," said Catherine Pennington, assistant superintendent of elementary education for Lodi Unified School District.

Around the beginning of the school year, Joe Serna Jr. Charter School staff organized an advisory committee in response to parent concerns about students being required to make the pledge.

Before the debate began, students at Joe Serna Jr. Charter School would say the pledge in English and in Spanish every Wednesday at a schoolwide assembly.

Teachers are not required to lead their students in the Pledge of Allegiance, according to California education code, but they do need to engage their class in some sort of patriotic exercise each day.

"The flag salute, obviously, is the one we're most familiar with," Pennington said, but students can sing a song, have a moment of silence or any number of things.

By California education code, charter schools do not have to have such an observance, according to the California Department of Education.

Michael Gillespie, principal at Joe Serna Jr. Charter School, would not comment on the matter.

Aspire Public Schools, an organization that helps run three charter schools in Lodi Unified, did not return phone calls Monday afternoon to say whether or not its schools participated in the Pledge of Allegiance.

Rod Mara, vice principal and fifth-grade teacher at St. Peter Lutheran School, said classes say the Pledge of Allegiance every morning in their individual classrooms.

Jennifer Nelson-Burgher, a self-described history buff and parent of both a sixth-grader and an eighth-grader at Joe Serna Jr. Charter School, said she believes the phrase "under God" — added to the pledge by act of Congress in 1954 — was added as a result of the McCarthy era of the late 1940s and early 1950s.

"I'm not offended by the pledge itself. I'm offended that it was bastardized," she said.

Nelson-Burgher does not practice an organized religion at home. However she feels that the phrase "under God" is exclusionary.

She said she loves the Sting Ray Pledge, which the school instituted sometime after the debate about the Pledge of Allegiance came forward.

Students now say the Sting Ray Pledge at their Wednesday assemblies, according to Nelson-Burgher.

• Lodi Unified School District chartered the school in the spring of 2000. The school opened that fall.
• Joe Serna Jr. Charter School offers a bilingual education in English and Spanish.
• The school serves nearly 300 students. During the 2006-07 school year, 69.7 percent of those students were Hispanic and 25.4 percent of those students were white, according to the California Department of Education.
• An advisory committee, working under the Lodi Unified School District board, governs Joe Serna Jr. Charter School.
The committee is made up of district officials, site personnel, parents and community members.
— Joe Serna Jr. Charter School's Web site, California Department of Education.

The Sting Ray is Joe Serna Jr. Charter School's mascot.

"It's very inspirational, very powerful," she said.

However, some parents are outraged that the issue is even a discussion topic.

"Don't get me started," said Marianne Henderson, 33, who was picking up her son from the school Monday afternoon. "I'm very upset."

Henderson believes that the pledge is an American tradition that everybody should respect.

Just as she would respect and participate in German traditions if she was to travel to Germany, Henderson said she expects people to respect American traditions while in the United States.

"We live in America," said Henderson, struggling against her anger to get the words out. "You respect each country's traditions."

Lupe Lisojo, 33, had a Bible in her car as she picked up her seventh-grader from school Monday afternoon.

"I don't agree with them taking (the phrase) out," she said. "I believe in a higher power."

In 2004, Michael Newdow made national headlines when he brought a similar complaint about the phrase "under God" before the U.S. Supreme Court on behalf of his daughter who attended school in Elk Grove Unified School District. However, the court ruled that Newdow did not have the right to bring up the matter under his daughter's name because the girl's mother had sole custody of the child at the time Newdow initially filed the lawsuit.

The Supreme Court's decision overturned a previous ruling in favor of Newdow.

Kim Gillespie, Michael Gillespie's wife and parent of two children at the school, said she doesn't have a problem with the pledge.

She said she comes from a long line of relatives who have served in the armed forces. She said she feels that saying the pledge is a way of recognizing those who risked their lives for their country.

"We can go to sleep at night and know that we're pretty safe compared to other countries," Kim Gillespie said.

Also a teacher at Lodi Middle School, Kim Gillespie said she doesn't require her students to say the pledge.

Joe Serna Jr. Charter School's pledge advisory committee is still discussing whether or not the school will say the Pledge of Allegiance. When it finishes receiving input from the community and makes its decision, the pledge could be reinstituted as it was originally.

Even so, Nelson-Burgher said, her efforts will not have been wasted.

"It was still worth the battle to raise people's awareness."

Contact reporter Amanda Dyer at amandad@lodinews.com.

Reader Feedback

real facts wrote on Feb 22, 2008 11:53 AM:

" girard: make mine chocolate with a cherry on top. life is way too short for anything to be plain white vanilla
"

girard74 wrote on Feb 21, 2008 9:41 PM:

" Well, Real Facts, as I'm sure you've heard, 'Imitation is the Most Sincere Form of Flattery,' although in this case I would suggest a little grain of salt to be taken along with the compliment.

I, too, am curious as to who has been placed in cyber detention. Wow!! This really does remind me of high school!!

Tomorrow I'll meet all you guys at the Malt Shop, ok?!? Like, totally!!! "

real facts wrote on Feb 21, 2008 5:13 PM:

" well, the desperation roller coaster continues. now someone is impersonating me (most likely LODIAN). because afterall, she did this before by coming at me as "lee", her imaginary "friend"

the answer is NO. i do not apologize for anything i ever said or did to you, because i ALWAYS told the truth about you, and will continue to do so "if" you act the same. i keep my promises.

lodian, quit using my name


LNS....i am still not posting multiple posts on purpose. it has to be something with my computer. i apologize "

real_facts wrote on Feb 21, 2008 5:01 PM:

" it wasn't me, because i can still post. Lodian, I am sorry for all my personal attacks aimed at you. I have no right to judge you. Let us agree to disagree and move on. "

real facts wrote on Feb 21, 2008 1:34 PM:

" it wasn't me, because i can still post.

bummer huh? "

real facts wrote on Feb 21, 2008 12:02 PM:

" it wasn't me, because i can still post.

bummer huh? "

Lodian wrote on Feb 21, 2008 9:20 AM:

"
~`~`~`~`HALLELUJAH!`~`~`~`~

Thanks, LNS! "

sam wrote on Feb 21, 2008 8:43 AM:

" LNS, THANK YOU !!! "

real facts wrote on Feb 21, 2008 12:09 AM:

" ("Maxwell wrote on Feb 20, 2008 1:13 PM:
real facts, please stay on topic and stop the "food fight").

i was addressing comments made to me, and about me, AFTER hanner's warning.

i noticed you didn't bother to address THOSE. whats hypocritical in here, is that i am the ONLY ONE that is the "problem".

anyone else can take their swipes at me all day long in here, but i am supposed to cower into the corner.....nope, that won't happen.

say something to me or about me, and i will respond "

Lucius wrote on Feb 20, 2008 4:16 PM:

" Amen, Max. "

Maxwell wrote on Feb 20, 2008 1:13 PM:

" real facts, please stay on topic and stop the "food fight".

" Note from Editor Rich Hanner:
Seems postings on this story have become a food fight of late. We'll culled out the last couple of days and would like to suggest, respectfully, that readers refrain from posts that are insulting or off topic. Thanks! "
"

real facts wrote on Feb 20, 2008 1:03 PM:

" lodian; since you CAN read my posts (even though you lied you couldn't), where is the apology you owe me for purposefully lying about me being brian so you could discredit me?

where is it?

your probably taking comfort in the FACT that your partners in crime still high five you, even though they know you lie incessantly.

covering up the sins of your crime, makes THEM an accesory to it.

yep, these blogs are loaded with people of integrity.

you all do these things so easily in here, makes one wonder if you have ANY integrity in your personal lives away from here "

Lodian wrote on Feb 20, 2008 11:27 AM:

" This blog is not displayed because you have added the blogger "Real Facts" to your Ignore list
"

Lodian wrote on Feb 20, 2008 11:26 AM:

"
Jeff wrote on Feb 12, 2008 6:59 AM:
"Ready, Set, RANT!"

Jef: I guess you were right from the very beginning. LOL
"

real facts wrote on Feb 19, 2008 11:46 PM:

" LNS, apologize for my computer glitch causing multiple posts.

it's not like you need my permission to delete them, but if it was for some reason, you have my permission to delete repeating posts.

i DID NOT do it on purpose

real facts "

real facts wrote on Feb 19, 2008 11:41 PM:

" ("girard74 wrote on Feb 19, 2008 11:25 PM:RF - Why do you find it necessary to post your comments multiple times? What IS your point").

girard, i give you my word as a man, i am not doing this on purpose. my computer is acting weird. i just re-booted it, so we will see.

i may be long in my responses in order to make sure i leave no stone unturned, but repeating posts multiple times is not my style.....that would be lodians modus non operan-did.

i can see why the LNS deleted those posts, but it was a shame...i-"almost"-had-the-real-you......front-and-center...next-time "

real facts wrote on Feb 19, 2008 11:39 PM:

" ("Lodian wrote on Feb 19, 2008 4:08 PM:
richardh: Does this mean that you will remove all the posts by "real facts" that are threatening personal attacks as well"?).

you would love to turn it into that, but you never will. because thats a lie

the LNS knows the differentiation between "threatening personal attacks"...me making all of you promises in here about how i would respond to you, if you continue to challenge Gods authority.

i am not afraid to repeat it again, because it is within blog rules...i will oppose you to the Nth dgree allowable in here. i promise
"

real facts wrote on Feb 19, 2008 11:29 PM:

" ("Lodian wrote on Feb 19, 2008 4:08 PM:
richardh: Does this mean that you will remove all the posts by "real facts" that are threatening personal attacks as well"?).

you would love to turn it into that, but you never will. because thats a lie

the LNS knows the differentiation between "threatening personal attacks"....me making all of you promises in here about how i would respond to you, if you continue to challenge Gods authority.

i am not afraid to repeat it again, because it is within blog rules....i will oppose you to the Nth dgree allowable in here. i promise
"

real facts wrote on Feb 19, 2008 11:28 PM:

" ("Lodian wrote on Feb 19, 2008 4:08 PM:
richardh: Does this mean that you will remove all the posts by "real facts" that are threatening personal attacks as well"?).

you would love to turn it into that, but you never will. because thats a lie

the LNS knows the differentiation between "threatening personal attacks"...me making all of you promises in here about how i would respond to you, if you continue to challenge Gods authority.

i am not afraid to repeat it again, because it is within blog rules....i will oppose you to the Nth dgree allowable in here. i promise
"

girard74 wrote on Feb 19, 2008 11:25 PM:

" RF - Why do you find it necessary to post your comments multiple times? What IS your point? "

real facts wrote on Feb 19, 2008 11:10 PM:

" ("Lodian wrote on Feb 19, 2008 4:08 PM:
richardh: Does this mean that you will remove all the posts by "real facts" that are threatening personal attacks as well"?).

you would love to turn it into that, but you never will. because thats a lie

the LNS knows the differentiation between "threatening personal attacks"...me making all of you promises in here about how i would respond to you, if you continue to challenge Gods authority.

i am not afraid to repeat it again, because it is within blog rules.....i will oppose you to the Nth dgree allowable in here. i promise "

real facts wrote on Feb 19, 2008 10:22 PM:

" ("Lodian wrote on Feb 19, 2008 4:08 PM:
richardh: Does this mean that you will remove all the posts by "real facts" that are threatening personal attacks as well"?).

you would love to turn it into that, but you never will. because thats a lie

the LNS knows the differentiation between "threatening personal attacks"...me making all of you promises in here about how i would respond to you, if you continue to challenge Gods authority.

i am not afraid to repeat it again, because it is within blog rules.....i will oppose you to the Nth dgree allowable in here. i promise "

real facts wrote on Feb 19, 2008 10:16 PM:

" OTH: i know your not "reading this", but do try to follow along. the only reason the LNS would allow me this much lee-way on these blogs is because (a) i am playing within the rules, (B) they know i am defending myself against the onslaught of people in here coming at me from every corner of the room.

little ol' me.

what you fail (as always) to admit, "you people" start alot of this stuff YOURSELF, i have a right to respond and defend myself.

little ol' me against the busloads of would be silencers.

i am still standing "

OTH wrote on Feb 19, 2008 8:14 PM:

" Richard Hanner it's interesting you removed, as Sam said, most of the gentler posts but left Real Facts who comes very close to personal threats. If someone tries to bring it back to the topic they are subjected to furthur attacks by him. Your objectivity leaves a lot to be desired. "

jeff wrote on Feb 19, 2008 5:47 PM:

" scout, perhaps employers should offer a time for adults to recite the pledge daily. maybe right before the 5-min hate. "

scout wrote on Feb 19, 2008 4:42 PM:

" If the pledge of allegiance is so important why are we forcing our children to memorize and recite words they do not understand while we adults do not say the pledge everyday? If it is so important for every child of this country to involuntary recite it in schools, shouldn’t the government pass a new mandate requiring all businesses to have their employees say the pledge every morning? Or would government be over stepping its bounds? Personally, I think only those who believe in the pledge should say it, otherwise they are lying, which would be very unchristian-like. "

Lodian wrote on Feb 19, 2008 4:08 PM:

" richardh: Does this mean that you will remove all the posts by "real facts" that are threatening personal attacks as well? "

girard74 wrote on Feb 19, 2008 4:04 PM:

" It's their board, to do as they wish. It doesn't say much regarding their own objectivity and sense of fair play. I've been in on some other 'discussions' that went much further 'off topic' and/or laced with much harsher rhetoric. Too bad. "

Robb wrote on Feb 19, 2008 4:00 PM:

" In a state or federally funded institution, the words "under god" should be removed, simply not saying them is NOT an option for anyone.. Separation of Church and State is completely specific, I am surprised that those words are still there!! "

sam wrote on Feb 19, 2008 3:34 PM:

" My thoughts exactly, Lodian. The kind, gentle comments were taken off and the filthy garbage remains. "

Lodian wrote on Feb 19, 2008 3:18 PM:

" Why are Girard's respectful posts gone and real facts' nasty posts still here? Curious decision on the deletion of the respectful posts. "

richardh wrote on Feb 19, 2008 2:39 PM:

" Note from Editor Rich Hanner:
Seems postings on this story have become a food fight of late. We'll culled out the last couple of days and would like to suggest, respectfully, that readers refrain from posts that are insulting or off topic. Thanks! "

sam wrote on Feb 19, 2008 2:19 PM:

" girard74, I just complained to Mr Hanner and to the webmaster. I was enjoying your Christian words, your patience, and your kindness. I felt like I was taking a class in How To Discuss Religious Beliefs Without Insults. Hope they restore the blog, and thanks again. "

girard74 wrote on Feb 19, 2008 2:15 PM:

" LNS - While this is your board to do with as you wish, I do not understand why so many posts were deleted. Upon reviewing your rules, I don't remember reading any violation. The comments remained on point as to the religious implications within the Pledge.

Could you please explain? "

girard74 wrote on Feb 19, 2008 2:08 PM:

" WOW!!!!! The LNS must have really had a problem with these arguments. Most of everything appears to have been deleted. Oh well. "

nylodian wrote on Feb 18, 2008 8:28 AM:

" Tosh Conn: Many people do confuse the Declaration of Independence with the Constitution, not realizing they are two separate documents, serving different purposes. I agree that the term "bastardized" is harsh, but it is a fact the original pledge was altered, most likely reflecting the fears of the day. "

Lee wrote on Feb 18, 2008 1:08 AM:

" It's like watching a train wreck with this guy, real acts. I imagine this guy at his computer just losing it, talking and yelling to himself and at any minute he might do himself in. Maybe the paper should contact this guy and see if he is at risk for hurting himself or someone else. His posts are just too crazy to be from a sane person. "

girard74 wrote on Feb 18, 2008 12:22 AM:

" If 'real facts' weren't so downright hilarious, I'd suggest that the LNS delete his profile from this system. Of course, he would only re-register and treat us to more of his insanity. One thing is for sure, I am continuously amazed at the level of stupidity that inhabits this planet. "

tosh conn wrote on Feb 17, 2008 5:33 PM:

" Hey--Nelson-Burgher--"We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal, THAT THEY ARE ENDOWED BY THEIR CREATOR with certain unalienable rights...." Is this part of your "Bastardized" thinking too?? You are one sick rat. "

Lodian wrote on Feb 17, 2008 4:41 PM:

" nylodian (3:36 PM): That was beautifully said.

"

nylodian wrote on Feb 17, 2008 3:36 PM:

" RF: I have decided the best way for me to deal with your obsessive attacks on me is to follow Christ's teachings and turn the other cheek. Peace be with you. "

Hmmm wrote on Feb 17, 2008 3:33 PM:

" Again rf disappears to go to work. He worked yesterday and today. He says he is no longer bound to follow the 4th Commandment because he wants to justify that he works on the Lord's Day. He does not keep the Lord's Day holy. He believes and preaches against the 4th Commandment.

He is a fake.

Matt 5:19: Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven. "

jlawrenceendicott wrote on Feb 17, 2008 3:21 PM:

" Pledging to a "StingRay" instead of support for the country that is heaping luxuries on you ? You people have mush for brains, and the pablum-brained idiots are led by the parents. Too bad there isn't retroactive birth control. "

Lodian wrote on Feb 17, 2008 1:31 PM:

"
Hey, when's moving day?

"

real facts wrote on Feb 17, 2008 1:26 PM:

" NYLODIAN: here's a nice little integrity test to demonstrate whether you pick truth in life, or you pick people and agenda.

let's see if you call lodian out on her nasty lie of me "using" WY, lying that my dealings with WY had to do with some PR move on my part, and that i wasn't dialogging with WY, to encourage WY in Christ.

lets see you take lodian to task for that one. i will bet you won't, because your a hypocrite who only plays HER side of the coin.

pressures on nylodian

you pick people and agenda, OVER truth "

real facts wrote on Feb 17, 2008 1:21 PM:

" ("Lodian wrote on Feb 17, 2008 1:00 PM:
.... You don't even have a sense of humor, so what good are you? LOL").

ahhh now that hurt bad. you don't think i have a sense of humor, probably because i have to spend countless hours chasing down your lies for you to experience it.

i am funny, trust me.

here's proof....my post to voter at 11:55am

now that WAS funny

in my non-cyber life outside of these blogs where i have to take out peoples trash in here, i am known for being the life of the party. thats bad news for you, huh? "

real facts wrote on Feb 17, 2008 1:14 PM:

" lodian; just like brian says in his reference to "flies"....what you said about you having some post that proves who i am....it SMELLS.

it "smells" because it's another lie in your weak game to discredit me. if you had it.....YOU WOULD SHOW IT LIGHTNING QUICK

i guess you love futility, because no matter how many rambling posts you make, no matter how many times you lie without conscience, it's IMPOSSIBLE for you or ANY man to discredit me, so long as i stick to Gods authority as my main goal. your welcome to try, as it only proves my case against....you....wooooohoooooooo "

real facts wrote on Feb 17, 2008 1:09 PM:

" lodian:
you have "banned together". thats a joke. right now "you people" fit that scripture "wide is the path that leads to destruction, and MANY there be on it". you have lied to yourself based on your affliations, that "numbers" tell the truth. NOPE. that just means you have ALOT of "company" in the land of delusion. there is NO comfort in that.

go ahead and still make that accusation about WY....someday you will pay a big price for that, as God does not allow that to fly. you will reap what you sowed on that one "

real facts wrote on Feb 17, 2008 1:02 PM:

" lodian: your desperation is reaching new levels these days.

poor lodian gets hit with the spot light of who she really is, and starts spitting and sputtering all over herself.

i know your desperate for me to swim in the same river as you do, but anybody that shows brain function on an e.e.g. machine could tell you that brian is 100 times more intelligent than i am. the guy is well versed in many aspects of life, where i am not. i have my "specialty". nope, two different people. too bad you can't squeeeeez out of your bothched-multiple-personality-lie-when-you-tried-to-be...."lee" "

Lodian wrote on Feb 17, 2008 1:00 PM:

" real facts(wrote on Feb 16,2008 11:27PM)

Yes, RF, you are unnatural in many ways. This includes the way you cling to WY. Unfortunately for her you have decided that she is the one you choose to "use" in order to make your points toward others and to act as if you were human towards her. Sorry, we all saw right through you. I think you are quite unnatural, maybe even sent from hell to stir things up amongst believers. Sorry again, but that won't happen. We have banned together against your evil. You lose. You can spew your evil all you like, but nothing will change in that you still only zero souls to count in your little bag of tricks. And if I decide to leave any given board/topic it is because I decided that I was done addressing someone that does not care to be human, but only evil. You don't even have a sense of humor, so what good are you? LOL! Well, evil, you will leave empty handed....again. But, I know you will try again. God is on my side. I'll be just fine. "

Lodian wrote on Feb 17, 2008 12:41 PM:

" nylodian (wrote on Feb 17, 2008 7:14AM)

"RF: When posters get tired your rants, you think they are "running away". No RF, they are backing away slowly, careful not to make any sudden moves."

THAT WAS SO FUNNY! I couldn't help but think of Elmer Fudd... "Shhhhhhhh, be vewwwy, vewwwy quiet..."

I'm still laughing! I love your sense of humor! LOL! Thanks!

"

Lodian wrote on Feb 17, 2008 12:35 PM:

" Brian/AKA:realfacts: I see that you two pat each other on the back. We all know that you are the same person, so why keep denying it. Oh well. Enjoy your madness. Hope you find your way out someday. "

Lodian wrote on Feb 17, 2008 12:31 PM:

" real facts (wrote on Feb 16, 2008 11:33 PM):

Wow! Get a grip fella.

Nope, I will not post your threatening post to me from the other board. It is beneath me to post such evil things. It is, however, gratifying to me to see that you in fact do know the truth about your lies, as evidenced by your outbursts here (again). I was really wondering if you had a clue as to how deep your hatred and evil goes, but alas, I see that you know all too well exactly what you are doing.

You-are-an-evil-little-man.

God help you. "

real facts wrote on Feb 17, 2008 12:03 PM:

" brian: while they are not the same person "physically", they sure don't make it hard to demonstrate thier swimming in the same river.

whats pathetically sad, is neither of them are any good at hiding it, and they ALL believe thier own "press".

whats even worse, is they delude themselves into thinking they will use the same excuses on God on thier day, that they try and use on us today.

"they" display arrogance, and laugh at the prospect of encountering God in their current state.

they won't be laughing....then.
at least they can never say they weren't forewarned "

real facts wrote on Feb 17, 2008 11:55 AM:

" ("voter wrote on Feb 17, 2008 10:35 AM:
That's an interesting metaphor, Brian. If we're the flies, what does that make you").

......a "fly swatter".

i don't care who you are, thats funny right there" "

voter wrote on Feb 17, 2008 10:35 AM:

" That's an interesting metaphor, Brian. If we're the flies, what does that make you? "

Brian wrote on Feb 17, 2008 9:40 AM:

" Real Facts, in due time we will find out Leonard and his peanut gallery are all the same person. Look at how they pat each other on the back and stick together like flies on s#$it. "

Stanford Man wrote on Feb 17, 2008 9:40 AM:

" Excessive blogging is an obsessive compulsive disorder. It can be controlled with Prozac or other NSAIDs. "

Brian wrote on Feb 17, 2008 9:36 AM:

" Real facts wrote to nylodian/Leonard: i bet you advocate THEM taking-pot-shots-at-me......your biases-are-rediculously-obvious-AND-hypocritical "

Here Here "

real facts wrote on Feb 17, 2008 7:56 AM:

" nylodian: i like how you advocate that anybody can say anything they want about me, but i am required (by you) to be mr. nice guy. i'm defending myself, get-over-it

before you answer that with an un-true statement like "no, THEY are defending themselves against you".....let's see you make an excuse for all the people that come after me FIRST. most recently...... OTH, lucius, el bombero, and a host of others that suddenly "appear" out of the shadows. then when i neatly put them in thier place, they run and hide....(OTH-stuck-around-for-a-post-or-three)

i bet you advocate THEM taking-pot-shots-at-me......your biases-are-rediculously-obvious-AND-hypocritical "

real facts wrote on Feb 17, 2008 7:44 AM:

" ("nylodian wrote on Feb 17, 2008 7:14 AM:RF: When posters get tired your rants, you think they are "running away". No RF, they are backing away slowly, careful not to make any sudden moves").

leonard is tired of it all right. tired of being busted for what he "isn't". leonard always talked trash about what he "knew". then when i would pin him to the wall about it, he would run everytime, then lie saying he answered my questions.

so looks like you advocate that behavior as well. at least your consistent in your being hypocritical.

your two for two "

real facts wrote on Feb 17, 2008 7:40 AM:

" ("nylodian wrote on Feb 17, 2008 7:08 AM:RF: I don't feel any burning need to "scold" posters who give you a dose of your own poison because, unlike you, they have never flung personal attacks against me").

what kind of a statement is that?

of course they wouldn't. in some regards, you swim in the same river as they do.

thats what i was getting at with you. you never call any of them out on thier nastiness.

so according to you, thier "nastiness" is acceptable to you, which in turn makes you one of them.

your a hypocrite "

nylodian wrote on Feb 17, 2008 7:14 AM:

" RF: When posters get tired your rants, you think they are "running away". No RF, they are backing away slowly, careful not to make any sudden moves. "

nylodian wrote on Feb 17, 2008 7:09 AM:

" RF: I don't feel any burning need to "scold" posters who give you a dose of your own poison because, unlike you, they have never flung personal attacks against me. "

nylodian wrote on Feb 17, 2008 7:04 AM:

" Jim: I'm chillin' just fine here, thanks. If you post was meant to be funny, I'm sorry if I missed the humor. (I was also trying to get the discussion back to the original point). I do think most people recognize that those religions and the current debate on immigration is associated with mostly non-whites. "

real facts wrote on Feb 17, 2008 12:20 AM:

" billy rubin, the artist formerly known as "dan" in the discussion boards.

you used to say "religion causes insanity"....i always half agreed with that moniker of yours, as "religion" IS nasty. a relationship with Jesus Christ...a completely different story.

anyhoo, i came up with a new one, and it fits your life profile to a "T"...."perversion eventually rots the soul"

what do you think? do you like it? it fits you, right?

and lodian accused me of not having a sense of humor. actually, it's not really funny, because it's the truth "

real facts wrote on Feb 16, 2008 11:54 PM:

" lodian: your not thinking of taking the chicken exit like leonard, are you?

i thought you held yourself up as the "saviour" of the phonies? you don't want to let them down do you? you were doing your dirty work for them, and i was still building my case against you for being the CHIEF phony.

that last lie was juicy. i want to see that post front and center so you can "finish me off". LAUGHING

not feeling up to it anymore is no excuse either....you can always call on your imaginary "friend"...."lee" "

real facts wrote on Feb 16, 2008 11:48 PM:

" Billy Rubin Feb 16 7:05 PM:And since you claim to live the biblical life, I logically assumed you would give you daughter the best life.

I has always been you, Lying Sack, who has played god and said you walk the walk. OK, fine. When I assumed you fulfilled you obligation of twisting off animal heads, you got huffy. It's a wonderful thing in the bible to sell your daughter into slavery - so why wouldn't you").

the ONLY reason i copy and paste your perversion gone amok, is to demonstrate your blackened heart. people used to think i made it-all-up-about-you...-i-knew-you-would-vomit-your-heart-out-of-your-mouth-given-enough-"rope"....no-wonder-you-can't-father-children...i-guess-you-will-have-to-get-a-cat...LOL "

real facts wrote on Feb 16, 2008 11:43 PM:

" ("Billy Rubin wrote on Feb 16, 2008 7:05 PM: Well, Lying Sack, it was you who said slavery was wonderful. The slaves just loved loved loved being slaves").

actually, what i did was replicate the biblical story and attitude about slaves. they were hired help. anytime they were treated unfairly (i.e. "sub-human" or akin to "possessions"), the bible condemned that practice.

but of course you have to twist my words, because as usual, you didn't "have me" like you thought you did. it must not be fun for you striking out everytime. your used to -scaring-Christians-with-your-evil-demeanor....so-sorry-to-disappoint-black-hearted-one "

real facts wrote on Feb 16, 2008 11:37 PM:

" ("Leonard wrote on Feb 16, 2008 7:22 PM:
I can't believe it took me this long to find the ignore function").

actually leonard, thats been your "function" all along

......you hit the "ignore" button a long time ago (at least since i have known about you for over a year now) "

real facts wrote on Feb 16, 2008 11:33 PM:

" lodian; i dare you to post the post you lie and say you have, that says what you claim it says about me.

I DARE YOU.

the truth is, your a liar, otherwise you would.

you will never do it, because it both doesn't exist, and your a liar.

DO IT !!!

your refusal to do something that would so easily "have me"....is further proof your nothing more than a liar who can't deal with me any other way. otherwise you would have done it

your excuse for not doing it is a lie. since when did you care about...censorship?

your conscience has become sewage "

real facts wrote on Feb 16, 2008 11:27 PM:

" ("Lodian wrote on Feb 16, 2008 9:24 PM:
You were referring to WY and I noticed your unnatural affection towards her").

all i need to do with you, is copy and paste your evil heart, and let your OWN words be your un-doing.

"unnatural affection" huh?

i pray to God that WY reads that and soaks it in.

as for you, someday thier will be a reckoning in your life of what a nasty liar you are, and that while claiming your a "Christian". the truth about it is you know you do, and you don't even temper it. it's now "unchecked"

best-of-luck-when-God-takes-his-recompense-on-your-purposefull-nastiness....your-going-to-need-it "

real facts wrote on Feb 16, 2008 11:21 PM:

" ("Lodian wrote on Feb 16, 2008 9:24 PM:
I have that post, RF, but I can't re-post it as it was very threatening. Oh, I have it alright").

once again, your lying all over this place.

NO ONE has worked harder than you to discredit me in here, so you could cheapen what i say, and get me kicked to the curb.

if you had that "post", you would have displayed that for all the LNS to see. that would have been your silver bullet.

i laugh at how pathetic a person you have become. your constant lying comes straight from the pit-of-hell.....your-not-even-good-at-it-anymore "

Lucius wrote on Feb 16, 2008 9:39 PM:

" girard74 wrote on Feb 16, 2008 8:39 PM:
" To Lodian - Sorry about my illegible posts."

Keep working with that browser. I may not respond and I may not always agree, but I do enjoy reading your posts, girard74. Keep 'em coming. "

Lodian wrote on Feb 16, 2008 9:24 PM:

" realfacts/Brian: You are a complete liar when you say a post of yours was not removed from the other religious blog. The only thing I can repeat from that post is "BUTT OUT". You were referring to WY and I noticed your unnatural affection towards her. I called you on it when I saw you using her as a way to blast others on the blog. You flipped out completely. You lost it big time and you know it. I have that post, RF, but I can't re-post it as it was very threatening. Oh, I have it alright. :-) "

Lodian wrote on Feb 16, 2008 9:22 PM:

" realfacts/Brian: You are a comlete liar when you say a post of yours was not removed from the other religious blog. The only thing I can repeat from that post is "BUTT OUT". You were referring to WY and your unatural affection towards her. I called you on it when I saw you using her as a way to blast others on the blog. You flipped out completely. You lost it big time and you know it. I have that post, RF, but I can't re-post it as it was very threatening. Oh, I have it alright. :-) "

Lodian wrote on Feb 16, 2008 9:16 PM:

" When posting to Leonard, real facts wrote on Feb 15, 2008 8:39 PM: "...you call me names including a liar. when you lie, i am only telling the truth about you."

Is this the rant of a crazy person or what? LOL!!!!! :>
"

Lodian wrote on Feb 16, 2008 9:16 PM:

" real facts wrote on Feb 15, 2008 8:39 PM: "...you call me names including a liar. when you lie, i am only telling the truth about you."

Is this the rant of a crazy person or what? LOL!!!!! :>
"

Lodian wrote on Feb 16, 2008 9:08 PM:

" LEONARD! How did you do that? All this time and I never even thought it was possible to "ignore" a poster here. Never crossed my mind. I thought we just had to keep scrolling past the guy. I only skim his posts now as he posts these long annoying chapters of hate anyway. Please share with the rest of us on how you are blocking "real facts". THANKS! "

Lodian wrote on Feb 16, 2008 9:06 PM:

" girard74: Thanks. I noticed that if I highlight your post I can read it just fine. Otherwise it comes up with little squares between each word. It's curious, as I've never seen that before. Thanks. Play on... :-) "

Lodian wrote on Feb 16, 2008 9:03 PM:

" real facts: Go ahead and keep lying to yourself as in your post on Feb 16 @ 2:01 PM. You are wallowing in your own hate right now. I can see you are getting worse. If you fester long enough maybe you'll realize what you have done to yourself and actually be saved one day. I just hope it's not too late when you decide to crawl out of that dank black hole you are stuck in right now. Reach out, RF, God can still save you. If anyone can, at this point, it will have to be God himself. "

girard74 wrote on Feb 16, 2008 8:40 PM:

" To Lodian - Sorry about my illegible posts. In my attempt to work around the 100-word limit, there are some browsers that are unable to display the special characters I've tried to use. I currently use Windows Explorer and am able to read them just fine; however, I installed Mozilla and Netscape temporarily to view my posts using those browsers and found that I was creating a problem for anyone using those programs to read my posts.

I'm a rebel, so I'll keep trying to beat the system, but I'll also try to make sure people can read what I write. "

Leonard wrote on Feb 16, 2008 7:22 PM:

" " This blog is not displayed because you have added the blogger "Real Facts" to your Ignore list.

I can't believe it took me this long to find the ignore function.

"

Billy Rubin wrote on Feb 16, 2008 7:05 PM:

" Well, Lying Sack, it was you who said slavery was wonderful. The slaves just loved loved loved being slaves.

And since you claim to live the biblical life, I logically assumed you would give you daughter the best life.

I has always been you, Lying Sack, who has played god and said you walk the walk. OK, fine. When I assumed you fulfilled you obligation of twisting off animal heads, you got huffy. It's a wonderful thing in the bible to sell your daughter into slavery - so why wouldn't you? "

jim fox wrote on Feb 16, 2008 6:45 PM:

" nylodian re: your Feb 16th 10:41 post. HUH?
Since when are Christians, Buddhists, and Moslems "races." Or even immigrants?
Besides, most people recognize humor when they read it. Chill out. "

real facts wrote on Feb 16, 2008 5:13 PM:

" someone tell leonard he can bury his head in the sand, or stick his finger in his ears, but it still won't make a truth, an un-truth.

you should run completely away leonard.

you always did anyway

i am not a wuss. billy rubin is the nastiest guy in this blog by far as per his accusation i sold my own daughter into "sexual slavery". if there ever WAS a person i would jettison into blog oblivion, it's that un-humane fellow. not me tho. i don't run and hide from anyone.

leonard does because he can't handle the spotlight anymore "

real facts wrote on Feb 16, 2008 5:07 PM:

" ("Leonard wrote on Feb 16, 2008 2:35 PM:

" This blog is not displayed because you have added the blogger "Real Facts" to your Ignore list.

Ahh.... bliss! ")

laughing my keyboard off. leonard thinks this is about him, and now that he can't "read it", i will give up on my "friendship" with him. not hardly.

nope leonard, i was using you all along because you were the poster child of phoniness disguised as a "christian". and since you advocated taking regular detours from Gods authority while masquerading as a Christian so you could "sell" the notion that everyone could do that......i-used-you-as-an-example-of-what-not-to-do.....and-i-will-continue-using-you,--whether-you-can-read-it-or-not "

jeff wrote on Feb 16, 2008 4:09 PM:

" max, why does it not surprise me that you missed the point of the article. It's not the pledge to this nation that an increaing number of people are objecting to, it's the inclusion of "god" in that plegde. "

max stanfield wrote on Feb 16, 2008 3:31 PM:

" Why does it not surprise me that a school composed of 67-70% Hispanics have difficulty affirming their allegiance TO THE COUNTRY THEY ARE ELECTING TO LIVE IN !! If I decided to live in Mexico or were I to be born there, I should darn well be able to affirm my support for the country !! To not do so is not friendly disagreement, its mild treason. "

Leonard wrote on Feb 16, 2008 2:35 PM:

" This blog is not displayed because you have added the blogger "Real Facts" to your Ignore list.

Ahh.... bliss! "

real facts wrote on Feb 16, 2008 2:30 PM:

" ("Leonard wrote on Feb 16, 2008 2:12 PM:
I, for one, have had enough of his nonsense").

i bet you are. i shine the light on who you REALLY are like no one else ever had the guts to, and thats getting to you. but your stuck with me, because you have more than earned my "affection" for you. i won't allow your nastiness to prevail....and-teach-others-that-they-too-can-circumvent-Gods-authority

you come at me as much as i come at you. the difference is that you feign "integrity" to the readership with your rediculous "i will pray for you RF". what a crock "

real facts wrote on Feb 16, 2008 2:23 PM:

" ("Leonard wrote on Feb 16, 2008 2:12 PM:
This guy has one goal and it is to drive people from Christ's fellowship by portraying Christians as hate addled bigots").

that is EXACTLY who you are at the start of every blog containing anything revolving around God. you just described exactly who you are, and what you do in-here

i made my goal clear...i wasn't going to stand by and watch as people like you attempt to redefine Gods laws and standards thru your liberal garbage, and then attach "Christianity" on it for validation purposes. nope, not ever gonna happen leonard.

"

real facts wrote on Feb 16, 2008 2:18 PM:

" correction....the LNS has deleted posts before of mine....in the blogs that dealt with the islam / muslim issues.

i seperated some muslims from thier words in the blogs about them being would-be potential threats via thier anti-american rhetoric, vs. thier claims about being "peaceful muslims". the LNS must have been scared about being sued or something, and they removed it. what i said in there was the truth (you know me)

but the LNS has NEVER deleted a post of mine in ANY blog other than that one.