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In a blur of motion, a Joe Serna Jr. Charter School student rushes past a composite image of the Statue of Liberty and American flag made up of student's pictures on Monday afternoon. Parents and staff at the school are debating whether or not students should recite the Pledge of Allegiance. (Dan Evans/News-Sentinel)
Pledge debate
Joe Serna Jr. Charter School discusses Pledge of Allegiance
To pledge or not to pledge? That's the question at Joe Serna Jr. Charter School.
School officials have decided to reexamine a policy regarding whether students should be required to say the Pledge of Allegiance after a group of parents took issue with the line "one nation under God," said Catherine Pennington, assistant superintendent of elementary education for Lodi Unified School District.
Around the beginning of the school year, Joe Serna Jr. Charter School staff organized an advisory committee in response to parent concerns about students being required to make the pledge.
Before the debate began, students at Joe Serna Jr. Charter School would say the pledge in English and in Spanish every Wednesday at a schoolwide assembly.
Teachers are not required to lead their students in the Pledge of Allegiance, according to California education code, but they do need to engage their class in some sort of patriotic exercise each day.
"The flag salute, obviously, is the one we're most familiar with," Pennington said, but students can sing a song, have a moment of silence or any number of things.
By California education code, charter schools do not have to have such an observance, according to the California Department of Education.
Michael Gillespie, principal at Joe Serna Jr. Charter School, would not comment on the matter.
Aspire Public Schools, an organization that helps run three charter schools in Lodi Unified, did not return phone calls Monday afternoon to say whether or not its schools participated in the Pledge of Allegiance.
Rod Mara, vice principal and fifth-grade teacher at St. Peter Lutheran School, said classes say the Pledge of Allegiance every morning in their individual classrooms.
Jennifer Nelson-Burgher, a self-described history buff and parent of both a sixth-grader and an eighth-grader at Joe Serna Jr. Charter School, said she believes the phrase "under God" — added to the pledge by act of Congress in 1954 — was added as a result of the McCarthy era of the late 1940s and early 1950s.
"I'm not offended by the pledge itself. I'm offended that it was bastardized," she said.
Nelson-Burgher does not practice an organized religion at home. However she feels that the phrase "under God" is exclusionary.
She said she loves the Sting Ray Pledge, which the school instituted sometime after the debate about the Pledge of Allegiance came forward.
Students now say the Sting Ray Pledge at their Wednesday assemblies, according to Nelson-Burgher.
• Lodi Unified School District chartered the school in the spring of 2000. The school opened that fall.
• Joe Serna Jr. Charter School offers a bilingual education in English and Spanish.
• The school serves nearly 300 students. During the 2006-07 school year, 69.7 percent of those students were Hispanic and 25.4 percent of those students were white, according to the California Department of Education.
• An advisory committee, working under the Lodi Unified School District board, governs Joe Serna Jr. Charter School.
The committee is made up of district officials, site personnel, parents and community members.
— Joe Serna Jr. Charter School's Web site, California Department of Education.
• Joe Serna Jr. Charter School offers a bilingual education in English and Spanish.
• The school serves nearly 300 students. During the 2006-07 school year, 69.7 percent of those students were Hispanic and 25.4 percent of those students were white, according to the California Department of Education.
• An advisory committee, working under the Lodi Unified School District board, governs Joe Serna Jr. Charter School.
The committee is made up of district officials, site personnel, parents and community members.
— Joe Serna Jr. Charter School's Web site, California Department of Education.
The Sting Ray is Joe Serna Jr. Charter School's mascot.
"It's very inspirational, very powerful," she said.
However, some parents are outraged that the issue is even a discussion topic.
"Don't get me started," said Marianne Henderson, 33, who was picking up her son from the school Monday afternoon. "I'm very upset."
Henderson believes that the pledge is an American tradition that everybody should respect.
Just as she would respect and participate in German traditions if she was to travel to Germany, Henderson said she expects people to respect American traditions while in the United States.
"We live in America," said Henderson, struggling against her anger to get the words out. "You respect each country's traditions."
Lupe Lisojo, 33, had a Bible in her car as she picked up her seventh-grader from school Monday afternoon.
"I don't agree with them taking (the phrase) out," she said. "I believe in a higher power."
In 2004, Michael Newdow made national headlines when he brought a similar complaint about the phrase "under God" before the U.S. Supreme Court on behalf of his daughter who attended school in Elk Grove Unified School District. However, the court ruled that Newdow did not have the right to bring up the matter under his daughter's name because the girl's mother had sole custody of the child at the time Newdow initially filed the lawsuit.
The Supreme Court's decision overturned a previous ruling in favor of Newdow.
Kim Gillespie, Michael Gillespie's wife and parent of two children at the school, said she doesn't have a problem with the pledge.
She said she comes from a long line of relatives who have served in the armed forces. She said she feels that saying the pledge is a way of recognizing those who risked their lives for their country.
"We can go to sleep at night and know that we're pretty safe compared to other countries," Kim Gillespie said.
Also a teacher at Lodi Middle School, Kim Gillespie said she doesn't require her students to say the pledge.
Joe Serna Jr. Charter School's pledge advisory committee is still discussing whether or not the school will say the Pledge of Allegiance. When it finishes receiving input from the community and makes its decision, the pledge could be reinstituted as it was originally.
Even so, Nelson-Burgher said, her efforts will not have been wasted.
"It was still worth the battle to raise people's awareness."
Contact reporter Amanda Dyer at amandad@lodinews.com.
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real facts wrote on Feb 22, 2008 11:53 AM:
"
girard74 wrote on Feb 21, 2008 9:41 PM:
I, too, am curious as to who has been placed in cyber detention. Wow!! This really does remind me of high school!!
Tomorrow I'll meet all you guys at the Malt Shop, ok?!? Like, totally!!! "
real facts wrote on Feb 21, 2008 5:13 PM:
the answer is NO. i do not apologize for anything i ever said or did to you, because i ALWAYS told the truth about you, and will continue to do so "if" you act the same. i keep my promises.
lodian, quit using my name
LNS....i am still not posting multiple posts on purpose. it has to be something with my computer. i apologize "
real_facts wrote on Feb 21, 2008 5:01 PM:
real facts wrote on Feb 21, 2008 1:34 PM:
bummer huh? "
real facts wrote on Feb 21, 2008 12:02 PM:
bummer huh? "
Lodian wrote on Feb 21, 2008 9:20 AM:
~`~`~`~`HALLELUJAH!`~`~`~`~
Thanks, LNS! "
sam wrote on Feb 21, 2008 8:43 AM:
real facts wrote on Feb 21, 2008 12:09 AM:
real facts, please stay on topic and stop the "food fight").
i was addressing comments made to me, and about me, AFTER hanner's warning.
i noticed you didn't bother to address THOSE. whats hypocritical in here, is that i am the ONLY ONE that is the "problem".
anyone else can take their swipes at me all day long in here, but i am supposed to cower into the corner.....nope, that won't happen.
say something to me or about me, and i will respond "
Lucius wrote on Feb 20, 2008 4:16 PM:
Maxwell wrote on Feb 20, 2008 1:13 PM:
" Note from Editor Rich Hanner:
Seems postings on this story have become a food fight of late. We'll culled out the last couple of days and would like to suggest, respectfully, that readers refrain from posts that are insulting or off topic. Thanks! "
"
real facts wrote on Feb 20, 2008 1:03 PM:
where is it?
your probably taking comfort in the FACT that your partners in crime still high five you, even though they know you lie incessantly.
covering up the sins of your crime, makes THEM an accesory to it.
yep, these blogs are loaded with people of integrity.
you all do these things so easily in here, makes one wonder if you have ANY integrity in your personal lives away from here "
Lodian wrote on Feb 20, 2008 11:27 AM:
"
Lodian wrote on Feb 20, 2008 11:26 AM:
Jeff wrote on Feb 12, 2008 6:59 AM:
"Ready, Set, RANT!"
Jef: I guess you were right from the very beginning. LOL
"
real facts wrote on Feb 19, 2008 11:46 PM:
it's not like you need my permission to delete them, but if it was for some reason, you have my permission to delete repeating posts.
i DID NOT do it on purpose
real facts "
real facts wrote on Feb 19, 2008 11:41 PM:
girard, i give you my word as a man, i am not doing this on purpose. my computer is acting weird. i just re-booted it, so we will see.
i may be long in my responses in order to make sure i leave no stone unturned, but repeating posts multiple times is not my style.....that would be lodians modus non operan-did.
i can see why the LNS deleted those posts, but it was a shame...i-"almost"-had-the-real-you......front-and-center...next-time "
real facts wrote on Feb 19, 2008 11:39 PM:
richardh: Does this mean that you will remove all the posts by "real facts" that are threatening personal attacks as well"?).
you would love to turn it into that, but you never will. because thats a lie
the LNS knows the differentiation between "threatening personal attacks"...me making all of you promises in here about how i would respond to you, if you continue to challenge Gods authority.
i am not afraid to repeat it again, because it is within blog rules...i will oppose you to the Nth dgree allowable in here. i promise
"
real facts wrote on Feb 19, 2008 11:29 PM:
richardh: Does this mean that you will remove all the posts by "real facts" that are threatening personal attacks as well"?).
you would love to turn it into that, but you never will. because thats a lie
the LNS knows the differentiation between "threatening personal attacks"....me making all of you promises in here about how i would respond to you, if you continue to challenge Gods authority.
i am not afraid to repeat it again, because it is within blog rules....i will oppose you to the Nth dgree allowable in here. i promise
"
real facts wrote on Feb 19, 2008 11:28 PM:
richardh: Does this mean that you will remove all the posts by "real facts" that are threatening personal attacks as well"?).
you would love to turn it into that, but you never will. because thats a lie
the LNS knows the differentiation between "threatening personal attacks"...me making all of you promises in here about how i would respond to you, if you continue to challenge Gods authority.
i am not afraid to repeat it again, because it is within blog rules....i will oppose you to the Nth dgree allowable in here. i promise
"
girard74 wrote on Feb 19, 2008 11:25 PM:
real facts wrote on Feb 19, 2008 11:10 PM:
richardh: Does this mean that you will remove all the posts by "real facts" that are threatening personal attacks as well"?).
you would love to turn it into that, but you never will. because thats a lie
the LNS knows the differentiation between "threatening personal attacks"...me making all of you promises in here about how i would respond to you, if you continue to challenge Gods authority.
i am not afraid to repeat it again, because it is within blog rules.....i will oppose you to the Nth dgree allowable in here. i promise "
real facts wrote on Feb 19, 2008 10:22 PM:
richardh: Does this mean that you will remove all the posts by "real facts" that are threatening personal attacks as well"?).
you would love to turn it into that, but you never will. because thats a lie
the LNS knows the differentiation between "threatening personal attacks"...me making all of you promises in here about how i would respond to you, if you continue to challenge Gods authority.
i am not afraid to repeat it again, because it is within blog rules.....i will oppose you to the Nth dgree allowable in here. i promise "
real facts wrote on Feb 19, 2008 10:16 PM:
little ol' me.
what you fail (as always) to admit, "you people" start alot of this stuff YOURSELF, i have a right to respond and defend myself.
little ol' me against the busloads of would be silencers.
i am still standing "
OTH wrote on Feb 19, 2008 8:14 PM:
jeff wrote on Feb 19, 2008 5:47 PM:
scout wrote on Feb 19, 2008 4:42 PM:
Lodian wrote on Feb 19, 2008 4:08 PM:
girard74 wrote on Feb 19, 2008 4:04 PM:
Robb wrote on Feb 19, 2008 4:00 PM:
sam wrote on Feb 19, 2008 3:34 PM:
Lodian wrote on Feb 19, 2008 3:18 PM:
richardh wrote on Feb 19, 2008 2:39 PM:
Seems postings on this story have become a food fight of late. We'll culled out the last couple of days and would like to suggest, respectfully, that readers refrain from posts that are insulting or off topic. Thanks! "
sam wrote on Feb 19, 2008 2:19 PM:
girard74 wrote on Feb 19, 2008 2:15 PM:
Could you please explain? "
girard74 wrote on Feb 19, 2008 2:08 PM:
nylodian wrote on Feb 18, 2008 8:28 AM:
Lee wrote on Feb 18, 2008 1:08 AM:
girard74 wrote on Feb 18, 2008 12:22 AM:
tosh conn wrote on Feb 17, 2008 5:33 PM:
Lodian wrote on Feb 17, 2008 4:41 PM:
"
nylodian wrote on Feb 17, 2008 3:36 PM:
Hmmm wrote on Feb 17, 2008 3:33 PM:
He is a fake.
Matt 5:19: Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven. "
jlawrenceendicott wrote on Feb 17, 2008 3:21 PM:
Lodian wrote on Feb 17, 2008 1:31 PM:
Hey, when's moving day?
"
real facts wrote on Feb 17, 2008 1:26 PM:
let's see if you call lodian out on her nasty lie of me "using" WY, lying that my dealings with WY had to do with some PR move on my part, and that i wasn't dialogging with WY, to encourage WY in Christ.
lets see you take lodian to task for that one. i will bet you won't, because your a hypocrite who only plays HER side of the coin.
pressures on nylodian
you pick people and agenda, OVER truth "
real facts wrote on Feb 17, 2008 1:21 PM:
.... You don't even have a sense of humor, so what good are you? LOL").
ahhh now that hurt bad. you don't think i have a sense of humor, probably because i have to spend countless hours chasing down your lies for you to experience it.
i am funny, trust me.
here's proof....my post to voter at 11:55am
now that WAS funny
in my non-cyber life outside of these blogs where i have to take out peoples trash in here, i am known for being the life of the party. thats bad news for you, huh? "
real facts wrote on Feb 17, 2008 1:14 PM:
it "smells" because it's another lie in your weak game to discredit me. if you had it.....YOU WOULD SHOW IT LIGHTNING QUICK
i guess you love futility, because no matter how many rambling posts you make, no matter how many times you lie without conscience, it's IMPOSSIBLE for you or ANY man to discredit me, so long as i stick to Gods authority as my main goal. your welcome to try, as it only proves my case against....you....wooooohoooooooo "
real facts wrote on Feb 17, 2008 1:09 PM:
you have "banned together". thats a joke. right now "you people" fit that scripture "wide is the path that leads to destruction, and MANY there be on it". you have lied to yourself based on your affliations, that "numbers" tell the truth. NOPE. that just means you have ALOT of "company" in the land of delusion. there is NO comfort in that.
go ahead and still make that accusation about WY....someday you will pay a big price for that, as God does not allow that to fly. you will reap what you sowed on that one "
real facts wrote on Feb 17, 2008 1:02 PM:
poor lodian gets hit with the spot light of who she really is, and starts spitting and sputtering all over herself.
i know your desperate for me to swim in the same river as you do, but anybody that shows brain function on an e.e.g. machine could tell you that brian is 100 times more intelligent than i am. the guy is well versed in many aspects of life, where i am not. i have my "specialty". nope, two different people. too bad you can't squeeeeez out of your bothched-multiple-personality-lie-when-you-tried-to-be...."lee" "
Lodian wrote on Feb 17, 2008 1:00 PM:
Yes, RF, you are unnatural in many ways. This includes the way you cling to WY. Unfortunately for her you have decided that she is the one you choose to "use" in order to make your points toward others and to act as if you were human towards her. Sorry, we all saw right through you. I think you are quite unnatural, maybe even sent from hell to stir things up amongst believers. Sorry again, but that won't happen. We have banned together against your evil. You lose. You can spew your evil all you like, but nothing will change in that you still only zero souls to count in your little bag of tricks. And if I decide to leave any given board/topic it is because I decided that I was done addressing someone that does not care to be human, but only evil. You don't even have a sense of humor, so what good are you? LOL! Well, evil, you will leave empty handed....again. But, I know you will try again. God is on my side. I'll be just fine. "
Lodian wrote on Feb 17, 2008 12:41 PM:
"RF: When posters get tired your rants, you think they are "running away". No RF, they are backing away slowly, careful not to make any sudden moves."
THAT WAS SO FUNNY! I couldn't help but think of Elmer Fudd... "Shhhhhhhh, be vewwwy, vewwwy quiet..."
I'm still laughing! I love your sense of humor! LOL! Thanks!
"
Lodian wrote on Feb 17, 2008 12:35 PM:
Lodian wrote on Feb 17, 2008 12:31 PM:
Wow! Get a grip fella.
Nope, I will not post your threatening post to me from the other board. It is beneath me to post such evil things. It is, however, gratifying to me to see that you in fact do know the truth about your lies, as evidenced by your outbursts here (again). I was really wondering if you had a clue as to how deep your hatred and evil goes, but alas, I see that you know all too well exactly what you are doing.
You-are-an-evil-little-man.
God help you. "
real facts wrote on Feb 17, 2008 12:03 PM:
whats pathetically sad, is neither of them are any good at hiding it, and they ALL believe thier own "press".
whats even worse, is they delude themselves into thinking they will use the same excuses on God on thier day, that they try and use on us today.
"they" display arrogance, and laugh at the prospect of encountering God in their current state.
they won't be laughing....then.
at least they can never say they weren't forewarned "
real facts wrote on Feb 17, 2008 11:55 AM:
That's an interesting metaphor, Brian. If we're the flies, what does that make you").
......a "fly swatter".
i don't care who you are, thats funny right there" "
voter wrote on Feb 17, 2008 10:35 AM:
Brian wrote on Feb 17, 2008 9:40 AM:
Stanford Man wrote on Feb 17, 2008 9:40 AM:
Brian wrote on Feb 17, 2008 9:36 AM:
Here Here "
real facts wrote on Feb 17, 2008 7:56 AM:
before you answer that with an un-true statement like "no, THEY are defending themselves against you".....let's see you make an excuse for all the people that come after me FIRST. most recently...... OTH, lucius, el bombero, and a host of others that suddenly "appear" out of the shadows. then when i neatly put them in thier place, they run and hide....(OTH-stuck-around-for-a-post-or-three)
i bet you advocate THEM taking-pot-shots-at-me......your biases-are-rediculously-obvious-AND-hypocritical "
real facts wrote on Feb 17, 2008 7:44 AM:
leonard is tired of it all right. tired of being busted for what he "isn't". leonard always talked trash about what he "knew". then when i would pin him to the wall about it, he would run everytime, then lie saying he answered my questions.
so looks like you advocate that behavior as well. at least your consistent in your being hypocritical.
your two for two "
real facts wrote on Feb 17, 2008 7:40 AM:
what kind of a statement is that?
of course they wouldn't. in some regards, you swim in the same river as they do.
thats what i was getting at with you. you never call any of them out on thier nastiness.
so according to you, thier "nastiness" is acceptable to you, which in turn makes you one of them.
your a hypocrite "
nylodian wrote on Feb 17, 2008 7:14 AM:
nylodian wrote on Feb 17, 2008 7:09 AM:
nylodian wrote on Feb 17, 2008 7:04 AM:
real facts wrote on Feb 17, 2008 12:20 AM:
you used to say "religion causes insanity"....i always half agreed with that moniker of yours, as "religion" IS nasty. a relationship with Jesus Christ...a completely different story.
anyhoo, i came up with a new one, and it fits your life profile to a "T"...."perversion eventually rots the soul"
what do you think? do you like it? it fits you, right?
and lodian accused me of not having a sense of humor. actually, it's not really funny, because it's the truth "
real facts wrote on Feb 16, 2008 11:54 PM:
i thought you held yourself up as the "saviour" of the phonies? you don't want to let them down do you? you were doing your dirty work for them, and i was still building my case against you for being the CHIEF phony.
that last lie was juicy. i want to see that post front and center so you can "finish me off". LAUGHING
not feeling up to it anymore is no excuse either....you can always call on your imaginary "friend"...."lee" "
real facts wrote on Feb 16, 2008 11:48 PM:
I has always been you, Lying Sack, who has played god and said you walk the walk. OK, fine. When I assumed you fulfilled you obligation of twisting off animal heads, you got huffy. It's a wonderful thing in the bible to sell your daughter into slavery - so why wouldn't you").
the ONLY reason i copy and paste your perversion gone amok, is to demonstrate your blackened heart. people used to think i made it-all-up-about-you...-i-knew-you-would-vomit-your-heart-out-of-your-mouth-given-enough-"rope"....no-wonder-you-can't-father-children...i-guess-you-will-have-to-get-a-cat...LOL "
real facts wrote on Feb 16, 2008 11:43 PM:
actually, what i did was replicate the biblical story and attitude about slaves. they were hired help. anytime they were treated unfairly (i.e. "sub-human" or akin to "possessions"), the bible condemned that practice.
but of course you have to twist my words, because as usual, you didn't "have me" like you thought you did. it must not be fun for you striking out everytime. your used to -scaring-Christians-with-your-evil-demeanor....so-sorry-to-disappoint-black-hearted-one "
real facts wrote on Feb 16, 2008 11:37 PM:
I can't believe it took me this long to find the ignore function").
actually leonard, thats been your "function" all along
......you hit the "ignore" button a long time ago (at least since i have known about you for over a year now) "
real facts wrote on Feb 16, 2008 11:33 PM:
I DARE YOU.
the truth is, your a liar, otherwise you would.
you will never do it, because it both doesn't exist, and your a liar.
DO IT !!!
your refusal to do something that would so easily "have me"....is further proof your nothing more than a liar who can't deal with me any other way. otherwise you would have done it
your excuse for not doing it is a lie. since when did you care about...censorship?
your conscience has become sewage "
real facts wrote on Feb 16, 2008 11:27 PM:
You were referring to WY and I noticed your unnatural affection towards her").
all i need to do with you, is copy and paste your evil heart, and let your OWN words be your un-doing.
"unnatural affection" huh?
i pray to God that WY reads that and soaks it in.
as for you, someday thier will be a reckoning in your life of what a nasty liar you are, and that while claiming your a "Christian". the truth about it is you know you do, and you don't even temper it. it's now "unchecked"
best-of-luck-when-God-takes-his-recompense-on-your-purposefull-nastiness....your-going-to-need-it "
real facts wrote on Feb 16, 2008 11:21 PM:
I have that post, RF, but I can't re-post it as it was very threatening. Oh, I have it alright").
once again, your lying all over this place.
NO ONE has worked harder than you to discredit me in here, so you could cheapen what i say, and get me kicked to the curb.
if you had that "post", you would have displayed that for all the LNS to see. that would have been your silver bullet.
i laugh at how pathetic a person you have become. your constant lying comes straight from the pit-of-hell.....your-not-even-good-at-it-anymore "
Lucius wrote on Feb 16, 2008 9:39 PM:
" To Lodian - Sorry about my illegible posts."
Keep working with that browser. I may not respond and I may not always agree, but I do enjoy reading your posts, girard74. Keep 'em coming. "
Lodian wrote on Feb 16, 2008 9:24 PM:
Lodian wrote on Feb 16, 2008 9:22 PM:
Lodian wrote on Feb 16, 2008 9:16 PM:
Is this the rant of a crazy person or what? LOL!!!!! :>
"
Lodian wrote on Feb 16, 2008 9:16 PM:
Is this the rant of a crazy person or what? LOL!!!!! :>
"
Lodian wrote on Feb 16, 2008 9:08 PM:
Lodian wrote on Feb 16, 2008 9:06 PM:
Lodian wrote on Feb 16, 2008 9:03 PM:
girard74 wrote on Feb 16, 2008 8:40 PM:
I'm a rebel, so I'll keep trying to beat the system, but I'll also try to make sure people can read what I write. "
Leonard wrote on Feb 16, 2008 7:22 PM:
I can't believe it took me this long to find the ignore function.
"
Billy Rubin wrote on Feb 16, 2008 7:05 PM:
And since you claim to live the biblical life, I logically assumed you would give you daughter the best life.
I has always been you, Lying Sack, who has played god and said you walk the walk. OK, fine. When I assumed you fulfilled you obligation of twisting off animal heads, you got huffy. It's a wonderful thing in the bible to sell your daughter into slavery - so why wouldn't you? "
jim fox wrote on Feb 16, 2008 6:45 PM:
Since when are Christians, Buddhists, and Moslems "races." Or even immigrants?
Besides, most people recognize humor when they read it. Chill out. "
real facts wrote on Feb 16, 2008 5:13 PM:
you should run completely away leonard.
you always did anyway
i am not a wuss. billy rubin is the nastiest guy in this blog by far as per his accusation i sold my own daughter into "sexual slavery". if there ever WAS a person i would jettison into blog oblivion, it's that un-humane fellow. not me tho. i don't run and hide from anyone.
leonard does because he can't handle the spotlight anymore "
real facts wrote on Feb 16, 2008 5:07 PM:
" This blog is not displayed because you have added the blogger "Real Facts" to your Ignore list.
Ahh.... bliss! ")
laughing my keyboard off. leonard thinks this is about him, and now that he can't "read it", i will give up on my "friendship" with him. not hardly.
nope leonard, i was using you all along because you were the poster child of phoniness disguised as a "christian". and since you advocated taking regular detours from Gods authority while masquerading as a Christian so you could "sell" the notion that everyone could do that......i-used-you-as-an-example-of-what-not-to-do.....and-i-will-continue-using-you,--whether-you-can-read-it-or-not "
jeff wrote on Feb 16, 2008 4:09 PM:
max stanfield wrote on Feb 16, 2008 3:31 PM:
Leonard wrote on Feb 16, 2008 2:35 PM:
Ahh.... bliss! "
real facts wrote on Feb 16, 2008 2:30 PM:
I, for one, have had enough of his nonsense").
i bet you are. i shine the light on who you REALLY are like no one else ever had the guts to, and thats getting to you. but your stuck with me, because you have more than earned my "affection" for you. i won't allow your nastiness to prevail....and-teach-others-that-they-too-can-circumvent-Gods-authority
you come at me as much as i come at you. the difference is that you feign "integrity" to the readership with your rediculous "i will pray for you RF". what a crock "
real facts wrote on Feb 16, 2008 2:23 PM:
This guy has one goal and it is to drive people from Christ's fellowship by portraying Christians as hate addled bigots").
that is EXACTLY who you are at the start of every blog containing anything revolving around God. you just described exactly who you are, and what you do in-here
i made my goal clear...i wasn't going to stand by and watch as people like you attempt to redefine Gods laws and standards thru your liberal garbage, and then attach "Christianity" on it for validation purposes. nope, not ever gonna happen leonard.
"
real facts wrote on Feb 16, 2008 2:18 PM:
i seperated some muslims from thier words in the blogs about them being would-be potential threats via thier anti-american rhetoric, vs. thier claims about being "peaceful muslims". the LNS must have been scared about being sued or something, and they removed it. what i said in there was the truth (you know me)
but the LNS has NEVER deleted a post of mine in ANY blog other than that one.
your lying lodian (or "lee", or whoever you are trying to decide to-be) "
Leonard wrote on Feb 16, 2008 2:12 PM:
This guy has one goal and it is to drive people from Christ's fellowship by portraying Christians as hate addled bigots.
RF is a sick and twisted parody of a believer and I, for one, have had enough of his nonsense. "
real facts wrote on Feb 16, 2008 2:09 PM:
it's an arduous job, but taking out thier "trash" is necessary "
real facts wrote on Feb 16, 2008 2:01 PM:
RF: Your post on a previous blog was removed. You posted threatening content. The LNS posted a warning afterwards. You can deny that all you like, that is the truth").
deny what? deny that you lie thru your wooden set of teeth? you have it bad. your handed your conscience to the guy who invented toilets along time ago.
the LNS .....NEVER deleted ANY post of mine EVER....thats a lie.
the LNS posted a warning for ALL of us to "cool it" in that blog. that warning was aimed at EVERYBODY....not me
LIAR "
Brian wrote on Feb 16, 2008 1:46 PM:
because many disagree with him that Jesus condoned homosexuality.
"
Lodian wrote on Feb 16, 2008 1:37 PM:
real facts wrote on Feb 16, 2008 1:07 PM:
I will ask you the same question I asked initially.
If the original Pledge is both more TRADITIONAL and more INCLUSIVE, why not restore it to its former place of prominence").
i already answered that question in my feb 13th post at 11:42pm to you.
but you already knew that, so what was the purpose in asking me again? (i know why) "
real facts wrote on Feb 16, 2008 1:00 PM:
oh i can take it all right. ever see me run away? funny nylodian how you always attack my character in here, but feign memory loss of what others do to me, which is EXACTLY what you just described.
it's exactly why i call you a hypocrite, because you have never ONCE chided anyone else for doing the same thing to me.
you said NOTHING ...when-billy-rubin-lost-his-mind
gotcha "
real facts wrote on Feb 16, 2008 12:54 PM:
" real acts derails every blog with his rants and the beating of his chest. Is there some purpose this guy serves through the LNS that allows him to continue on flapping his gums?
to real acts, Hey a$whole go clean your own house").
lodian, make up your mind. if you are going to be a man, go all the way and get the surgery. ask billy rubin, he's knows where those guys are that turn women into "men"
your a real "genuine" integrity filled person. yep
"
real facts wrote on Feb 16, 2008 12:49 PM:
There's no talking to you or have a debate")>
really? why don't you point me to a place where you attempted to "debate" me.
unlike your selective memory, my memory is excellant....and since it is, maybe you can explain how you came at me firing away on your first attempt, lying twice about what i said or did.
thats conducive to debate huh? all i did was take you to task for it, and i am the "bad guy"?
when you DO debate something, you will get respect...when-you-try-and-play-games-with-me,...i-will-make-you-pay-for-it-everytime "
real facts wrote on Feb 16, 2008 12:43 PM:
when she gets really desperate to take me down, out comes "lee". and well of course she is going to lie that she isn't, even after i proved in the other blog she was.
she continues to lie about it, despite claiming shes a "Christian"
i like how you pick the people in life you "admire"....it reveals ALOT about your integrity.
don't leave "lee" out anymore. you will hurt lodians "feelings" "
real facts wrote on Feb 16, 2008 12:37 PM:
You on the other hand when asked to give a list of things you do to follow the bible you come back with you do what you want and let God follow along").
figures you would add up what i said that way. really, you have to. because if you don't, then your on the hook about YOUR life (lol).
do you really think you can blame "me"....for-your-life?
no wonder you like your list of people. you play the same ....twist my words - attempt to discredit me....game. just like they do. i am shocked "
real facts wrote on Feb 16, 2008 12:32 PM:
Well Real Facts I will defend Leonard, WY, Lodian and Nylodian and Sam because I know them to be truthful honest people").
poor guy. if you measure truth, honesty and character by THOSE people, your in a world of hurt.
except for WY. WY is the ONLY one that has integrity.
leonard and lodian are charter members in the pinnochio "club", and you support them? nice
sam and nylodian try to play both sides of the fence. thier hypocritical.
you only keep that "company", because you swim in the same river.
birds of a feather... "
real facts wrote on Feb 16, 2008 12:25 PM:
Frankly, given the Sentinel's policy against personal attacks, I am rather surprised that he is still allowed to post here").
what i love about you people, and what solidifies my case against you, is comments like these.
i am the "only" one attacking people in here? sure leonard....no-one-says-anything-to-me-(lol)
you not only speak out of three sides of your mouth, you cover for the sins of others.
i like how "you people" in here aren't the least bit interested in truth, as you consistently pick people and agenda over the truth in any given situation "
real facts wrote on Feb 16, 2008 12:20 PM:
there is nor real point in trying to conduct a discussion with him since any discourse ultimately results in him launching a cascade of personal insults").
if you told the truth, the truth would go like this.....you making biblical claims you cannot qualify. i ask you to qualify them (which by definition IS debate).....and what do you do? you skate clean away. you don't debate or discuss anything with me. every attempt i have ever made toward you, you chicken out of. then you lie about me to deflect-your-responsibility-to-do-so....which-in-turns-means-i-have-to-tell-the-truth-about-you
"
Lodian wrote on Feb 16, 2008 12:19 PM:
Lodian wrote on Feb 16, 2008 12:15 PM:
nylodian wrote on Feb 16, 2008 10:41 AM:
nylodian wrote on Feb 16, 2008 10:38 AM:
jim fox wrote on Feb 16, 2008 10:23 AM:
Leonard wrote on Feb 16, 2008 9:59 AM:
The time has come to put the divisiveness of the McCarthy era behind us and to return to the Pledge which saw our forefathers through WWI, the Great Depression and WWII. "
s & W 500 wrote on Feb 16, 2008 9:52 AM:
Bastante! Enough! "
Stanford Man wrote on Feb 16, 2008 8:24 AM:
Stanford Man wrote on Feb 16, 2008 8:23 AM:
activity of ping-pong blogging progressing? "
Leonard wrote on Feb 16, 2008 7:54 AM:
There's no talking to you or have a debate. You are incapable of that, you have to be right. "
This is the same conclusion that I have come to as well. Even if RF really thinks he is a Christian (which I sincerely doubt) there is nor real point in trying to conduct a discussion with him since any discourse ultimately results in him launching a cascade of personal insults.
Frankly, given the Sentinel's policy against personal attacks, I am rather surprised that he is still allowed to post here. "
OTH wrote on Feb 16, 2008 7:44 AM:
real facts wrote on Feb 16, 2008 7:39 AM:
i would bet my life on it.
the fruitcake can't handle her business herself, so she created a male counter-part to try and intimidate me.
i bet you guys will still support her huh?
proverbs 6 applies to dual personality fruitcakes "lee"
take a hike lodian "
Leonard wrote on Feb 16, 2008 6:53 AM:
I will ask you the same question I asked initially.
If the original Pledge is both more TRADITIONAL and more INCLUSIVE, why not restore it to its former place of prominence? "
nylodian wrote on Feb 16, 2008 5:26 AM:
Lee wrote on Feb 16, 2008 3:38 AM:
to real acts, Hey a$whole go clean your own house.
"
real facts wrote on Feb 15, 2008 9:03 PM:
about you? no problem, glad i could be of help.
i was thinking about what you said to me today, and i thought how funny it was that while you came to set me straight, you hypocritically "forgot" to mention OTH purposefully lying about me, lodian's incessant lying about WY and other assorted machinations, billy rubins garphic imagery of me selling my daughter into slavery, etc etc etc.
yep nylodian, i am the one and only "bad guy" in these blogs.
see, i was right.....your hypocritical
you NEVER say anything-to-them "
real facts wrote on Feb 15, 2008 8:57 PM:
Real Facts is a viscous parody of a Christian. The only intent of the poster who invented him is to bring ridicule to both Christians and Christianity")>
thats a lie, and why i made sure that people know who you really are. your whole purpose in engaging Christians is to attack them. like i have said for over a year now, your first move toward them is ALWAYS sarcastic or damaging.
now your-attempting-to-use-my-own-words-against-me.....laughable.....your-a-phony-leonard...you-always-have-been "
real facts wrote on Feb 15, 2008 8:49 PM:
RF on at 11:26 you called Leonard on his "feigned declaration" that he followed Jesus Christ while you did. Can you list for us some of the ways you follow Christ? I'm not talking about reading the bible I mean every day things").
no ones looking for perfection OTH. even God himself doesn't require perfection from a man. somone can even mess up a whole lot, and still be right with God.
i make every attempt to adjust to Gods authority in every aspaect of my life. i honor that authority.....leonard seeks -to-either-redefine-it,...or-destroy-it-in-others....thats-"ain't"-behavior "
real facts wrote on Feb 15, 2008 8:45 PM:
so i have been told.
it's ok El, i will take "fuctionally illiterate" over "spiritually illiterate" anyday.
as far as "which Jesus"? it sure isn't the one you get hammered with in the back alley. that guy can't offer you eternal life....well he can i guess, but he can't deliver:-)
thanks for playing El "
real facts wrote on Feb 15, 2008 8:39 PM:
I am honestly convinced that Real Facts is being disingenuous in his representation of himself").
by "disingenuous" you mean someones words not matching thier claims?
there would be a picture of you, next to the dictionary definition of that word.
not that i have to save face with gerard, but maybe you can explain to gerard how everytime i ever try to debate the issues with you, you skate. and after that, you call me names including a liar. when you lie, i am only telling the truth about you.
your "sainthood" in here is well documented "
Leonard wrote on Feb 15, 2008 4:50 PM:
I didn't come to this conclusion overnight but after weeks of conversing with the guy, I am convinced that it is true. "
nylodian wrote on Feb 15, 2008 4:12 PM:
girard74 wrote on Feb 15, 2008 3:46 PM:
I enjoy a good argument as much as the next guy, but when it gets to the point where any discussion results in nothing but name-calling and other ineffective discourse, I simply give up and move along, even though it does, at times, leave me intellectually frustrated. "
girard74 wrote on Feb 15, 2008 3:10 PM:
ElBombero wrote on Feb 15, 2008 2:55 PM:
ElBombero wrote on Feb 15, 2008 2:54 PM:
"
Billy Rubin wrote on Feb 15, 2008 2:46 PM:
What no one needed was to have you trot out your writings after you have added hundreds of obscuring symbols to render it even more incomprehensible. You should have just taken the compliment and let it go at that.
Here is a second chance to do so.
"
ElBombero wrote on Feb 15, 2008 2:43 PM:
OTH wrote on Feb 15, 2008 2:03 PM:
girard74 wrote on Feb 15, 2008 1:55 PM:
"Ruben - Here is EXACTLY what I wrote:
'Writer: Hillary equals socialism
girard74 wrote on Feb 7, 2008 10:53 AM:
Scout, while I am really not trying to sound sarcastic or mean-spirited, I know it will
come across that way. But if you are so enamored with Canada's and England's health-
care systems, there is absolutely nothing from stopping you from availing yourself to
their services.'
How you interpret what I wrote is your business, but I certainly did not, '. . . [invite]
another reader to vacate the country.'
The ‘intent’ of my former post was exactly as I stated – I did not want this thought to be
taken out of context by stating, 'I am really not trying to sound sarcastic or mean-spirited';
the response was to someone who obviously could not find adequate services in the USA
and if another nation IS able to provide those services, then he had every right to pursue
them. In fact, there are many Americans who DO travel to other countries for medical
procedures that are either unavailable or more expensive here in the US.
On THIS particular subject, about the Pledge of Allegiance, the tone of many posters has
been, ‘America – love it or leave it!’ I have never espoused nor supported such a mind-
set. The right to voice one’s opinion on any matter is much of what makes living here so great.
While I cannot get into your head, Ruben, I would think that had you re-read my original
post before publishing your most recent comment you would have been able to discern
the differences between the two messages. Or maybe not."
"
Leonard wrote on Feb 15, 2008 1:48 PM:
" Leonard and anyone else - I do not believe that the purpose of this forum is to cast aspersions against any particular contributor.
Girard, I assure you that it is not my intent to cast aspersions. I seek only to make people aware of the truth.
Real Facts is a viscous parody of a Christian. The only intent of the poster who invented him is to bring ridicule to both Christians and Christianity.
"
real facts wrote on Feb 15, 2008 1:46 PM:
i do, did and have.
then when they reject it and lie about it, i have to take them to task for it. when they lie about me, i could care less, except for the fact that if they lie about me, they cheapen Gods words, and the trickle down effect of that is they get thier wish....to subvert Gods authority.
i-won't-stand-by-and-let-that-happen "
Lodian wrote on Feb 15, 2008 1:43 PM:
real facts wrote on Feb 15, 2008 1:42 PM:
"stalking"....what a crock. you people follow me around and comment on everything i say as well. thats why i call you what you are, when you display your hypocritical behavior.
but you are right about one thing, i have zero problem calling somebody a phony when they are. and when they lie repeatedly, i call them just what they are (a liar). you might play the PC game to save face and be "popular" in life, but i tell the truth. if you or others are on the receiving end of that truth, thats on you.
i call it just as-it-is "
Billy Rubin wrote on Feb 15, 2008 1:40 PM:
While your re-post of it was made illegible for whatever reason, I was able to find the original by the title and read it.
I was heartened to see it read as I remembered. Thanks for the honesty of admitting it. "
mp wrote on Feb 15, 2008 1:37 PM:
With all the uproar about removing the ten commandments, etc., this is worth a moment or two of your time. I was not aware of this amazing historical information.
On the aluminum cap, atop the Washington Monument in Washington , D.C. , are displayed two words: Laus Deo.
One detail that is never mentioned is that in Washington , D.C. there can never be a building of greater height than theWashington Monument .
With all the uproar about removing the ten commandments, etc., this is worth a moment or two of your time. I was not aware of this amazing historical information.
On the aluminum cap, atop the Washington Monument in Washington , D.C. , are displayed two words: Laus Deo.
No one can see these words. In fact, most visitors to the monument are totally unaware they are even there and for that matter, probably couldn't care less.
Once you know Laus Deo's history , you will want to share this with everyone you know. These words have been there for many years; they are 555 feet, 5.125 inches high, perched atop the monument, facing skyward to the Father of our nation, overlooking the 69 square miles which comprise the District of Columbia , capital of the United States of America.
Laus Deo! Two seemingly insignificant, unnoticed words. Out of sight and, one might think, out of mind, but very meaningfully placed at the highest point over what is the most powerful city in the most successful nation in the world.
So, what do those two words, in Latin, composed of just four syllables and only seven letters, possibly mean? Very simply, they say 'Praise be to God!'
Though construction of this giant obelisk began in 1848, when James Polk was President of the United States , it was not until 1888 that the monument was inaugurated and opened to the public. It took twenty-five years to finally cap the memorial with a tribute to the Father of our nation, Laus Deo. 'Praise be to God!'
From atop this magnificent granite and marble structure, visitors may take in the beautiful panoramic view of the city with its division into four major segments. From that vantage point, one can also easily see the original plan of the designer, Pierre Charles l'Enfant ... a perfect cross imposed upon the landscape, with the White House to the north. The Jefferson Memorial is to the south, the Capitol to the east and the Lincoln Memorial to the west.
A cross you ask? Why a cross? What about separation of church and state? Yes, a cross; separation of church and state was not, is not, in the Constitution. So, read on. How interesting and, no doubt, intended to carry a profound meaning for those who bother to notice.
Praise be to God! Within the monument itself are 898 steps and 50 landings. As one climbs the steps and pauses at the landings the memorial stones share a message.
On the 12th Landing is a prayer offered by the City of Baltimore; on the 20th is a memorial presented by some Chinese Christians; on the 24th a presentation made by Sunday School children from New York and Philadelphia quoting Proverbs 10:7, Luke 18:16 and Proverbs 22:6. Praise be to God!
When the cornerstone of the Washington Monument was laid on July 4th, 1848 deposited within it were many items including the Holy Bible presented by the Bible Society. Praise be to God! Such was the discipline, the moral direction, and the spiritual mood given by the founder and first President of our unique democracy 'One Nation, Under God.'
I am awed by Washington's prayer for America. Have you ever read it? Well, now is your unique opportunity, so read on!
'Almighty God; We make our earnest prayer that Thou wilt keep the United States in Thy holy protection; that Thou wilt incline the hearts of the citizens to cultivate a spirit of subordination and obedience to government; and entertain a brotherly affection and love for one another and for their fellow citizens of the United States at large. And finally that Thou wilt most graciously be pleased to dispose us all to do justice, to love mercy, and to demean ourselves with that charity, humility, and pacific temper of mind which were the characteristics of the Divine Author of our blessed religion, and without a humble imitation of whose example in these things we can never hope to be a happy nation. Grant our supplication, we beseech Thee, through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.' Laus Deo!
When one stops to observe the inscriptions found in public places all over our nation's capitol, he or she will easily find the signature of God, as it is unmistakably inscribed everywhere you look. You may forget the width and height of 'Laus Deo ', its location, or the architects but no one who reads this will be able to forget its meaning, or these words: 'Unless the Lord builds the house its builders labor in vain. Unless the Lord watches over the city, the watchmen stand guard in vain.' (Psalm 12 7: 1)
"
nylodian wrote on Feb 15, 2008 1:28 PM:
nylodian wrote on Feb 15, 2008 1:16 PM:
"
Lodian wrote on Feb 15, 2008 1:13 PM:
girard74 wrote on Feb 15, 2008 12:53 PM:
real facts wrote on Feb 15, 2008 12:38 PM:
with your post about me at 5:28am, you just provided for me a "two-fer" deal...
(1) to be able to prove even more what a phony you are
(2) to give me a platform for which to display Gods true laws and standards, and to differentiate what happens when a person takes a detour from them
thanks leonard :) "
real facts wrote on Feb 15, 2008 12:33 PM:
here we go, the battle cry of liberal nation...."hatred" and "intolerance".
thats code for....don't you dare say anything about the sin of another human being, and shut up so "we" don't have to hear you remind us.
while you people cry about "intolerance", you think your the only ones that can say whatever you want, and "we" are censored. take a hike.
you have been used to bullying Christianity around for awhile.....but not anymore.
Jesus isn't "tolerant" of any....sin "
real facts wrote on Feb 15, 2008 12:26 PM:
while this poster may claim to be a Christian he is, in fact, a militantly anti Christian poser who attempts to turn people from Christ by portraying Christians as hypocritical bigots").
whats the matter leonard? are you a little tired of the spotlight?
yeah, "i" turn people away from Christ? thats a boldfaced lie. i make sure i represent Christ and his word accuretly, so people like you can't re-define Gods laws and standards.
you ARE a hypocrite and a phony, evidenced by your constant fight against Christians and Christianity, and your-refusal-of-Gods-own-words
"
real facts wrote on Feb 15, 2008 12:20 PM:
so long as they read thru it without bias, i welcome that.
it will vindicate the fact that i don't take garbage off of anyone. when people lie about me, i take them to task for it, which is what that blog is all about. leonards just crying because someone has the guts to demonstrate who he really isn't.
Christians aren't door mats any more "
girard74 wrote on Feb 15, 2008 12:09 PM:
'Writer: Hillary equals socialism
girard74 wrote on Feb 7, 2008 10:53 AM:
Scout, while I am really not trying to sound sarcastic or mean-spirited, I know it will come across that way. But if you are so enamored with Canada's and England's health-care systems, there is absolutely nothing from stopping you from availing yourself to their services.'
How you interpret what I wrote is your business, but I certainly did not, '. . . [invite] another reader to vacate the country.'
The ‘intent’ of my former post was exactly as I stated – I did not want this thought to be taken out of context by stating, 'I am really not trying to sound sarcastic or mean-spirited'; the response was to someone who obviously could not find adequate services in the USA and if another nation IS able to provide those services, then he had every right to pursue them. In fact, there are many Americans who DO travel to other countries for medical procedures that are either unavailable or more expensive here in the US.
On THIS particular subject, about the Pledge of Allegiance, the tone of many posters has been, ‘America – love it or leave it!’ I have never espoused nor supported such a mind-set. The right to voice one’s opinion on any matter is much of what makes living here so great.
While I cannot get into your head, Ruben, I would think that had you re-read my original post before publishing your most recent comment you would have been able to discern the differences between the two messages. Or maybe not. "
Billy Rubin wrote on Feb 15, 2008 11:47 AM:
Another reader, whose name I cannot recall, maybe Voter or Scout or OTH or Leonard or someone, made mention of the desirability of affordable healthcare for families, you told the reader they could take their opinion and move to another country that offered such services.
Your exact wording excapes me, but the meaning was clear, "If you don't like it here, go elsewhere."
Credit where due, you prefaced your comment by writing that what you were about to say would seem harsh. On that point we agree. "
girard74 wrote on Feb 15, 2008 10:46 AM:
WHERE did I EVER suggest such a thing?!? "
ElBombero wrote on Feb 15, 2008 6:15 AM:
nylodian wrote on Feb 15, 2008 5:45 AM:
Leonard wrote on Feb 15, 2008 5:28 AM:
Please take everything this individual says with a ton of salt and remember that his intent is solely to turn people's hearts from Christ. "
ElBombero wrote on Feb 15, 2008 2:18 AM:
ElBombero wrote on Feb 15, 2008 2:17 AM:
real facts wrote on Feb 15, 2008 12:38 AM:
someday your going to wish that were actually true.
as slow as you are in here, you don't even realize how much opportunity you provide for me to create a scenario where you (and the "others") are even more guilty before God, than before you met me.
with more knowledge, and the rejection thereof, becomes more SELF condemnation.
poor billy. used to running Christians off that don't know thier stuff.
thanks for playing (wink) "
real facts wrote on Feb 15, 2008 12:33 AM:
Is this promised in the constitution...
or in there at all")>
doesn't matter if it is, or wasn't.
i wasn't referring to the constitution. the constitution doesn't supercede Gods word OR standards (wouldn't you as a "Christian" agree?).
what i was referring to is that God "should be" included in EVERY arena of life, but often times he isn't.
he gets the boot over man trying to "govern"------himself "
real facts wrote on Feb 15, 2008 12:28 AM:
nope. not within my jurisdiction.
nope billy, i cannot condemn you to hell, despite your latest non human escapades that would certainly make you deserving of that destination.
nope billy, YOU CHOOSE to wind up there, if you continue your hate God at all costs hit parade. i know you would like to blame me for your "travel plans"....but you can't.....YOU booked that ticket YOURSELF
(you can change "flights") "
real facts wrote on Feb 15, 2008 12:20 AM:
you do realize if you don't, your gonna need more than a "beer" ? "
real facts wrote on Feb 15, 2008 12:18 AM:
nope. your an "ain't", a phony. ain'ts don't go around blogs attempting to turn God into some PC wuss like you keep doing. thats ain't behavior.
i said it about you for over a year now, your first move on these subjects is ALWAYS one of tearing down, not solidarity. that proves your an "ain't"
"pray" all you want
"
Uncle Stinky wrote on Feb 14, 2008 4:48 PM:
Billy Rubin wrote on Feb 14, 2008 2:49 PM:
Billy Rubin wrote on Feb 14, 2008 2:47 PM:
This is the basis of RF's insanity: his utter inability to differentiate between reality and his fantasy.
If you were to publicly state god talks to you, RF would be first to call you a liar and pronounce you crazy.
He, however, says god tells him secrets and has given him higher powers to condemn his fellow humans to hell - and all the while never making any pretense of attempting to live the life he demands of others.
He's never read the bible, doesn't know the ten commandments and has no idea what the OT comprises, but read his posts! "
Lodian wrote on Feb 14, 2008 2:21 PM:
RF:
You state: "there is no such thing as a "seperation of God, and the various arena's of life". God belongs in every sector of human life."
Is this promised in the constitution...
or in there at all?
"
Billy Rubin wrote on Feb 14, 2008 2:12 PM:
Leonard wrote on Feb 14, 2008 1:51 PM:
prey tell leonard, where was i "ever" amiss in my representation of the "facts"? "
Come on RF. Surely, in you heart of hearts, you must know that your attempts to represent yourself as a Christian have been in direct conflicts with the hateful bilge that you have verbally vomitted all over these blogs.
Don't worry though, the more you reject Jesus the more I will pray for your Salvation.
"
real facts wrote on Feb 14, 2008 1:47 PM:
by that you mean my methodical ability to demonstrate how because you can't defend against me like a real man should, you have to lie about me and twist my words.....and how i have come and replicate what was REALLY said so you can't get away with it? i see what you really meant
people like billy have to lie....it's thier only "hope" "
real facts wrote on Feb 14, 2008 1:41 PM:
thats your twisted sick fantasy.
you mean, like your other comment in the other blog about how i "sold my duaghter into sexual slavery"?
thats your perversion that rotted your soul speaking. all i have to do is replicate your words to demonstrate your wonderful character.
perversion left unchecked leads to something even gutter rats wouldn't eat
"
real facts wrote on Feb 14, 2008 1:36 PM:
As a Believer, I believe that lying is a sin. To ask a non believer to take an oath affirming the existence of God is to ask them to lie. If lying itself is a sin than surely suborning lies is a sin as well").
this is juicy stuff...
when does a believer EVER cower to what an atheist thinks or feels, and adjusts God to that? your so opposite of a believer, it's pathetic to watch.
"you believe lying is a sin"? thats a crock too, because it's your ingrained second nature.
thats-a-two-fer-deal-in-one-post "
real facts wrote on Feb 14, 2008 1:32 PM:
If we have established anything on these blogs it is that the above statement is a gross misrepresentation of the facts.
I will pray for you").
don't bother. praying to another "god" is futile. the only God that can hear a man, is Jesus Christ, and it's obvious you don't know him either. people that fight against God....don't "know him"
what i do like about you, is your sweeping allegations, coupled with your ineptness in your inablity to qualify them.
prey tell leonard, where was i "ever" amiss in my representation of the "facts"? "
real facts wrote on Feb 14, 2008 1:27 PM:
Is blending God and an allegiance to our country one of the ten commandments").
in a perfect scenario....yes.
there is no such thing as a "seperation of God, and the various arena's of life". God belongs in every sector of human life.
unfortunately because of the free will guarantee that God does give in this life to every man, he often gets booted to the curb
it is rediculous how much emphasis people put on "country" over God. when you die, it won't matter squat where you lived geographically......but it will matter if you rejected Christ "
Leonard wrote on Feb 14, 2008 1:23 PM:
" ("Lodian wrote on Feb 14, 2008 12:37 PM:
RF: This world doesn't revolve around just you and what you believe").
"my beliefs" happen to line up with Gods word ....imagine that
If we have established anything on these blogs it is that the above statement is a gross misrepresentation of the facts.
I will pray for you. "
Leonard wrote on Feb 14, 2008 1:22 PM:
the point is was making is that it would be great if God was included, but more poignetly is your CONSTANT destruction of-anything-to-do-with-God,......while-claiming-your-a-"believer"....pure-hogwash
As a Believer, I believe that lying is a sin. To ask a non believer to take an oath affirming the existence of God is to ask them to lie. If lying itself is a sin than surely suborning lies is a sin as well.
The solution to this problem is simple.
Reinstate the original Pledge which is both more traditional AND more inclusive.
Problem solved! "
real facts wrote on Feb 14, 2008 1:21 PM:
RF: This world doesn't revolve around just you and what you believe").
"my beliefs" happen to line up with Gods word ....imagine that
i suppose God doesn't know what he is doing, so he just leaves up to people like you to "make it up as you go along"
nope, i have CONSISTENTLY maintained the world "should" evolve around Gods design/authority. i ALWAYS move toward that. does it always....NOPE (and thats where i come in).
i "remind" people they have strayed away from those standards "
nylodian wrote on Feb 14, 2008 1:05 PM:
Lodian wrote on Feb 14, 2008 12:37 PM:
Is blending God and an allegiance to our country one of the ten commandments? "
Lodian wrote on Feb 14, 2008 12:32 PM:
nylodian (Feb 14, 2008 7:32 AM):
Well said and I totally agree!
~>~>~> Happy Valentine's Day! "
Billy Rubin wrote on Feb 14, 2008 12:14 PM:
Say RF, since you are boasting of your perfect life and your adamant adherence to biblical law, why not take this opportunity to tell the readers about the joys of twisting off the heads of defenseless animals before gutting them and burning their sad little corpses?
I'm sure that will prove beyond any doubt how godly and christian you are. "
real facts wrote on Feb 14, 2008 11:26 AM:
the arguement about the pledge is insignificant compared to the bigger picture in here concerning YOU.
whether the pledge includes God or not is insignificant to the believer, as the believers "allegiance" doesn't lie with a country, as it does with God.
i won't stand before God as an "american" one day. i will stand before him based on whether or not i FOLLOWED him.
the point is was making is that it would be great if God was included, but more poignetly is your CONSTANT destruction of-anything-to-do-with-God,......while-claiming-your-a-"believer"....pure-hogwash "
real facts wrote on Feb 14, 2008 11:17 AM:
billy, i realize you snip all kinds of things you don't like right out of your life, just because you don't like it. it's the natural progression of the black heart sin-drome.
but purposefully NOT replicating my words in thier entirety, shows how weak your game really is.
the part you left out at the end of that....you don't get to choose what you want to believe, and then stand before God on that day approved of him.
get-it-right-next-time
"
Billy Rubin wrote on Feb 14, 2008 10:30 AM:
" It is incredibly anti-American for those to even suggest that any Americans leave the country simply because they have an opinion and then voice them."
This from the poster who only a few days ago invited another reader to vacate the country. [rolling eyes] "
Billy Rubin wrote on Feb 14, 2008 10:26 AM:
"Billy Rubin wrote...Real Facts saying no one has the right to their own beliefs" gee, the worlds poster boy on integrity makes another fallicious HALF TRUTH, implying something else to turn what i said, into something i NEVER said OR implied."
[RF cont.]"i said that NO MAN has the right to stand before God based on thier "OWN" beliefs."
Well, let's see what you ACTUALLY said, shall we? Your direct quote,cut&pasted: "what you fail to realize, is you don't get to choose what you want to believe."
Lying Sack says what now? "
girard74 wrote on Feb 14, 2008 10:24 AM:
nylodian wrote on Feb 14, 2008 7:32 AM:
ElBombero wrote on Feb 14, 2008 6:03 AM:
Leonard wrote on Feb 14, 2008 4:22 AM:
" Very simple "if you dont want to say the pledge the way we all say it. Then leave the USA because you dont appreciate living here and the freedoms that we all enjoy because many of my family members fought and are currently fighting for you.
Just GET OUT!
Roni, I you might want to refer to a dictionary. I don't think that the word "Freedom" means what you think it does. "
Leonard wrote on Feb 14, 2008 4:15 AM:
the original was just fine.
i am not defending the amended version, because it contains the word "god", but because people like you keep trying to rip religion out of the hearts of anyone you can, via your trumped up "liberalism".
Interesting. So you are advocating keeping a version of the Pledge that is inferior BOTH in that it is less inclusive AND less traditional just to spite me and other people that you consider to be liberal?
That is very mature. Do you make all your decisions this way? "
real facts wrote on Feb 13, 2008 11:42 PM:
Perhaps, but why not adopt the original pledge which all Americans can recite? The original pledge was good enough for generations of Americans, why shouldn't it be good enough for today").
the original was just fine.
i am not defending the amended version, because it contains the word "god", but because people like you keep trying to rip religion out of the hearts of anyone you can, via your trumped up "liberalism".
THATS why there is no prayer in public school.
whats even more laughable, is while you are on your destructive path, "you"-claim-to-be-a-"Christian".....what-a-joke "
real facts wrote on Feb 13, 2008 11:30 PM:
gee, the worlds poster boy on integrity makes another fallicious HALF TRUTH, implying something else to turn what i said, into something i NEVER said OR implied. twistmastergeneral
why am i not shocked that billy would continue this lie, in THIS blog, by purposefully twisting my words? sick puppy he is
not what i said billy (and you know that).....i said that NO MAN has the right to stand before God based on thier "OWN" beliefs. what matters, is what God-has-stated-that-we-are-TO-believe-about-HIM "
real facts wrote on Feb 13, 2008 11:18 PM:
" Ruben: Apparently, your only purpose in life is to attack me. Why not debate the issues instead of personal attacks").
don't bother waiting for that to happen by holdong your breath. you will die waiting for it
"billy" is a little trouble causing troll. known the guy in here over a year and he has never debated anything regarding religious discussion ONCE.
i respect differences of opinion ("when" they act respectable), but this guy is all about causing trouble in these blogs by attacking peoples faith thru sarcasm. thats all he's about
look elsewhere dyan "
0709 wrote on Feb 13, 2008 9:34 PM:
roni95242 wrote on Feb 13, 2008 9:18 PM:
Just GET OUT! "
Uncle Stinky wrote on Feb 13, 2008 8:58 PM:
Leonard wrote on Feb 13, 2008 5:11 PM:
Every American public school should have god in pledge, every single day!
The ironic thing is that the McCarthyite Pledge was only introduced to divide and exclude Americans.
I say reinstate the traditional pledge. It is both more traditional and more inclusive than the McCarthyite Pledge. "
Lodian wrote on Feb 13, 2008 4:22 PM:
Lodian wrote on Feb 13, 2008 4:21 PM:
voter wrote on Feb 13, 2008 3:59 PM:
JF wrote on Feb 13, 2008 3:29 PM:
JF wrote on Feb 13, 2008 3:18 PM:
Billy Rubin wrote on Feb 13, 2008 2:50 PM:
"
dyan wrote on Feb 13, 2008 2:30 PM:
dyan wrote on Feb 13, 2008 2:27 PM:
New infromation that threatenes the belief system will be automatically filtered away." "
Jeff wrote on Feb 13, 2008 2:11 PM:
Jeff wrote on Feb 13, 2008 2:09 PM:
" Rubin: Try reading the Constitution for a change."
dyan, who is attacking whom? "
Jeff wrote on Feb 13, 2008 2:09 PM:
" Jeff: Get real, Everyone is mortal and therefore everyone has some kind of crutch, wehether they admit it or not. Religious people use faith in God, liberals use faith in government to save them. An athiest's life is meaningless, as the finiteness of their death with no memory of their life is the same as if they never existed in the first place. I can understand questioning the unknown. I can't understand an existence with no purpose other than to take space and breathe air. "
"
Jeff wrote on Feb 13, 2008 2:07 PM:
" That Joe McCarthy. He said Hollywood was full of commies. He sure got that one wrong -right Sean Pean? "
dyan wrote on Feb 13, 2008 9:22 AM:
" Yes. I did misspell "Pol Pot" but that does not change the basis of the argument or the extreme bigotry expressed by those who hate religion and God knows what else. "
"
dyan wrote on Feb 13, 2008 2:06 PM:
... and that "In God we trust " stuff must go. Our legal system is based on Jedeo-Christian ethics, but who needs them now? "
Jeff wrote on Feb 13, 2008 2:05 PM:
" Let's all sing -(Dedicated to those who are offended by the word, "God"): "God hate America, land that I loathe. Please despise her, and criticize her,
and leave her culture on the road smashed like a toad." "
dyan wrote on Feb 12, 2008 8:50 AM:
" Hey. Forget that narcissistic religion stuff. I'd rather be like one of those humane secularists like Joe Stalin or Paul Pot. "
dyan wrote on Feb 12, 2008 8:42 AM:
" "Religion is a crutch" Thank you for that brilliant insight, Karl Marx. "
"
dyan wrote on Feb 13, 2008 1:59 PM:
dyan wrote on Feb 13, 2008 1:56 PM:
OTH wrote on Feb 13, 2008 1:53 PM:
Billy Rubin wrote on Feb 13, 2008 12:31 PM:
This from the poster who said, "An athiest's life is meaningless."
Yes, Dyan, there certainly does exist "extreme prejudice". "
nylodian wrote on Feb 13, 2008 11:29 AM:
Jeff wrote on Feb 13, 2008 11:04 AM:
Leonard wrote on Feb 13, 2008 11:03 AM:
" Leonard: You raise a good point. But it has been tradition since 1954, so why are we preoccupied with this nonsense when their are so many people out there who can't wait to destroy us? As long as we keep up the infighting, we'll do it for them!
There are two versions of the pledge. One is both more traditional AND more inclusive. Why not use that version?
It seems like a win/win no brainer to me. "
Jeff wrote on Feb 13, 2008 11:03 AM:
Forgot to add this: 'by the term "God," [you, Dyan] specifically meant the "Judeo-Christian God of the Holy Bible and not the God of any other religion.'
http://www.expertlaw.com/library/misc/first_amendment.html#C "
Jeff wrote on Feb 13, 2008 11:01 AM:
"
Jeff wrote on Feb 13, 2008 11:00 AM:
dyan wrote on Feb 13, 2008 10:59 AM:
Jeff wrote on Feb 13, 2008 10:57 AM:
Jeff wrote on Feb 13, 2008 10:56 AM:
dyan wrote on Feb 13, 2008 10:38 AM:
dyan wrote on Feb 13, 2008 10:34 AM:
oh bull ! wrote on Feb 13, 2008 10:24 AM:
GOD LOVES EVERYONE OF YOU!and paid a price for all of you! "
Lodian wrote on Feb 13, 2008 10:17 AM:
So, are you saying that a liberal does not believe in God or have faith in God?
"
Leonard wrote on Feb 13, 2008 10:09 AM:
Billy Rubin wrote on Feb 13, 2008 9:56 AM:
Your meaning was quite clear.
Religion = good.
Atheist = worthless.
We got your message and it has been recorded here.
Thanks again.
"
dyan wrote on Feb 13, 2008 9:51 AM:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or PROHIBITING THE FREE EXERCISE thereof..." Apparently, people like you want to do just that on government soil. "
dyan wrote on Feb 13, 2008 9:44 AM:
I am referring to anyone who does not believe in anything beyond his own existence. "
Billy Rubin wrote on Feb 13, 2008 9:40 AM:
Real Facts saying no one has the right to their own beliefs, Dyan saying non-christians' lives are meaningless.
If the framers of the Constitution could read the christo-fascists' attempts to twist the meaning of the founders intent, they would barf. "
Billy Rubin wrote on Feb 13, 2008 9:33 AM:
Well, we got to the root of Dyan's problem, didn't we? "
dyan wrote on Feb 13, 2008 9:22 AM:
dyan wrote on Feb 13, 2008 8:41 AM:
JF wrote on Feb 13, 2008 8:40 AM:
nylodian wrote on Feb 13, 2008 5:40 AM:
Leonard wrote on Feb 13, 2008 4:38 AM:
it's the pledge of allegiance. no one holds a gun to anyones head and forces them to recite it
Perhaps, but why not adopt the original pledge which all Americans can recite? The original pledge was good enough for generations of Americans, why shouldn't it be good enough for today? "
Patricia wrote on Feb 13, 2008 1:57 AM:
The current modern liberal self-destructive majority will succeed in their selfish mindless quest for self-gratification to slam and debase the very system that gave them the right to live free and declare their idiocy. It seems to me, an appreciative and intelligent person would use their hard won freedom to believe as they wish, "
sernateacher wrote on Feb 12, 2008 10:54 PM:
Bob Loblaw wrote on Feb 12, 2008 10:53 PM:
Scrutiny wrote on Feb 12, 2008 10:14 PM:
Scrutiny wrote on Feb 12, 2008 10:06 PM:
essayjay wrote on Feb 12, 2008 10:00 PM:
real facts wrote on Feb 12, 2008 9:39 PM:
Nice comment, Billy. It made me pause and think").
once again you align yourself with someone who spreads, and makes, an anti-Christian sentiment, all the while claiming "your" a Christian.
i love how you guys talk out of both sides of your mouth.
a true Christian doesn't high five someone who works to stifle God. "
real facts wrote on Feb 12, 2008 9:20 PM:
As Christians, we are taught that lying is a sin.
Is it not also then a sin to force another person to lie").
it's the pledge of allegiance. no one holds a gun to anyones head and forces them to recite it.
liberals like you are the reason we don't have prayer in schools either.
you claim to be a Christian, yet YOU lie all the time, and subvert these things.
whose-"team"-do-you-play-for-anyway???? "
tired wrote on Feb 12, 2008 7:59 PM:
Leonard wrote on Feb 12, 2008 7:45 PM:
The fact is that the Pledge as modified in the 1950's is unnecessarily divisive. A return to the traditional pledge, as it read before the McCarthy witch hunters changed it, would eliminate these problems. "
jfp wrote on Feb 12, 2008 7:32 PM:
jfp wrote on Feb 12, 2008 7:32 PM:
jfp wrote on Feb 12, 2008 7:31 PM:
jfp wrote on Feb 12, 2008 7:31 PM:
I think we stand and recite the pledge in school to learn the words. (I bet that 90% of the students under the age of 17 have no idea what they are reciting, or care, but someday they will and when they do, they can then make a choice of whether or not they truly mean it.) "
citizen wrote on Feb 12, 2008 7:19 PM:
voter wrote on Feb 12, 2008 7:18 PM:
Uncle Stinky wrote on Feb 12, 2008 7:01 PM:
" This should not be about religion - It is the history of this great country. "Under God" comes from the Gettysburg Address - Read it - even today it has a very power meaning.
"Under God" has been used for thousands of years, for different religions, and in different languages. To say it came form the Gettysburg Address is silly.
"
Uncle Stinky wrote on Feb 12, 2008 6:52 PM:
The reason people are asking for "under god" to be removed from the pledge is not just because they don't believe in others' right to say it, but because their children will be outcast and picked on. "
By this line of reasoning no one should be different, because all kids tease each other. My daughter was picked on for being short, I guess the other kids should stop growing. They picked on the fat kid in class, I guess all the other kids should become obese. "
mhenderson wrote on Feb 12, 2008 6:36 PM:
"
DavidD wrote on Feb 12, 2008 5:55 PM:
Why does 1% of our classroom time have to go towards this ritual? "
DavidD wrote on Feb 12, 2008 5:49 PM:
The reason people are asking for "under god" to be removed from the pledge is not just because they don't believe in others' right to say it, but because their children will be outcast and picked on. "
Uncle Stinky wrote on Feb 12, 2008 5:45 PM:
As another Serna parent I also know of The Gang of Four-The Lesboradoes, Hat Lady and SAHD. Almost all the parents I know wish they would have stayed in Stockton. They just like making trouble. "
T & C wrote on Feb 12, 2008 5:44 PM:
"
jeff wrote on Feb 12, 2008 5:35 PM:
Modern liberalism is, by defintion, a politcal ideology; in other words, it's a system of government. So I'm not sure how a type of government can use government as a crutch. "
jeff wrote on Feb 12, 2008 5:18 PM:
jeff wrote on Feb 12, 2008 5:17 PM:
jeff wrote on Feb 12, 2008 5:16 PM:
Leonard wrote on Feb 12, 2008 5:15 PM:
This should not be about religion - It is the history of this great country. "Under God" comes from the Gettysburg Address - Read it - even today it has a very power meaning
The Pledge of Allegiance ought to be something that every American can say honestly and with pride, not just those who happen to believe in God. The text should be returned to its original state.
The time has come for a Pledge of Allegiance that all Americans can share. "
jeff wrote on Feb 12, 2008 5:13 PM:
"
jeff wrote on Feb 12, 2008 5:10 PM:
mhenderson wrote on Feb 12, 2008 4:21 PM:
mhenderson wrote on Feb 12, 2008 4:02 PM:
"
nylodian wrote on Feb 12, 2008 4:00 PM:
Billy Rubin wrote on Feb 12, 2008 3:29 PM:
Beyond that, I'm at a loss as to your application of the term fascist in your chosen context. I suspect you are unclear as to its meaning. Shall I define it for you? "
Scrutiny wrote on Feb 12, 2008 3:19 PM:
Jeff wrote on Feb 12, 2008 2:58 PM:
voter wrote on Feb 12, 2008 2:48 PM:
dyan wrote on Feb 12, 2008 2:38 PM:
essayjay wrote on Feb 12, 2008 2:34 PM:
essayjay wrote on Feb 12, 2008 2:30 PM:
Preamble to the Constitution of the State of California. . .
We, the People of the State of California , grateful to Almighty God for our freedom...
Now maybe people today don't think saying the Pledge of Allegiance isn't of much value. But I do. I think it is one way to teach our children respect for our country, our veterans who fight for us, and our flag that represents us and the values that set us apart from all other countries. "
OTH wrote on Feb 12, 2008 2:11 PM:
Billy Rubin wrote on Feb 12, 2008 2:04 PM:
That more closely relays my meaning. "
Jeff wrote on Feb 12, 2008 1:58 PM:
"History does not record anywhere a religion that has any rational basis. Religion is a crutch for people not strong enough to stand up to the unknown without help." — Lazarus Long, in Time Enough for Love by Robert A. Heinlein "
Proud American wrote on Feb 12, 2008 1:42 PM:
girard74 wrote on Feb 12, 2008 1:39 PM:
Is a witness at a trial more believable because they 'swear' to tell the truth?
I am more inclined to respect a person who won't take a pledge if he/she is standing on personal convictions. It is a lot easier to 'go with the flow' and not attract attention by reciting a few words that really don't mean anything. "
Jeff wrote on Feb 12, 2008 1:37 PM:
Leonard wrote on Feb 12, 2008 1:34 PM:
As Christians, we are taught that lying is a sin.
Is it not also then a sin to force another person to lie? "
nylodian wrote on Feb 12, 2008 1:31 PM:
Jeff wrote on Feb 12, 2008 1:29 PM:
girard74 wrote on Feb 12, 2008 1:18 PM:
sam wrote on Feb 12, 2008 1:10 PM:
Bob Loblaw wrote on Feb 12, 2008 1:08 PM:
1103 wrote on Feb 12, 2008 1:01 PM:
girard74 wrote on Feb 12, 2008 12:57 PM:
To suggest that any citizen is not a citizen for not reciting an oath flies in the face of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. And, frankly I'm sick and tired of hearing that particular rant. To me, there is something terribly 'Un-American' about believing in that idea. That is NOT what this country is about. "
Bob Loblaw wrote on Feb 12, 2008 12:49 PM:
serna_parent wrote on Feb 12, 2008 12:43 PM:
This is NOT an issue of separation of church and state. It is a minority changing school policy to fit their own agenda without due process. We are now at the point where it has become a public issue. There is a nice spin on the issue in the article, which is not how the issue was presented AFTER the pledge was stopped. "
Mazie wrote on Feb 12, 2008 12:39 PM:
SernaParent wrote on Feb 12, 2008 12:30 PM:
Bob Loblaw wrote on Feb 12, 2008 12:25 PM:
Jeff wrote on Feb 12, 2008 12:22 PM:
serna_parent wrote on Feb 12, 2008 12:18 PM:
serna_parent wrote on Feb 12, 2008 12:03 PM:
Billy Rubin wrote on Feb 12, 2008 11:55 AM:
Eerily true when reading these blogs. The christians are always first to tell others to shut up ior leave the country. The so-called "patriots" move quickly to stifle any and all dissent and kill all diversity of thought.
Fascism thus advances, wrapped in the flag and carrying a crucifix. "
Leonard wrote on Feb 12, 2008 11:34 AM:
Bob Loblaw wrote on Feb 12, 2008 11:11 AM:
Jeff wrote on Feb 12, 2008 11:10 AM:
Proud American wrote on Feb 12, 2008 11:00 AM:
Jeff wrote on Feb 12, 2008 10:56 AM:
Bob Loblaw wrote on Feb 12, 2008 10:50 AM:
Jeff wrote on Feb 12, 2008 10:35 AM:
dyan wrote on Feb 12, 2008 10:30 AM:
dyan wrote on Feb 12, 2008 10:28 AM:
Jeff wrote on Feb 12, 2008 10:13 AM:
Jeff wrote on Feb 12, 2008 10:12 AM:
mhenderson wrote on Feb 12, 2008 10:08 AM:
Bob Loblaw wrote on Feb 12, 2008 9:35 AM:
Bob Loblaw wrote on Feb 12, 2008 9:31 AM:
tosh conn wrote on Feb 12, 2008 9:30 AM:
desertflower wrote on Feb 12, 2008 9:25 AM:
Bob Loblaw wrote on Feb 12, 2008 9:23 AM:
Taxpayer & Citizen wrote on Feb 12, 2008 9:03 AM:
dyan wrote on Feb 12, 2008 8:50 AM:
dyan wrote on Feb 12, 2008 8:42 AM:
Taxpayer & Citizen wrote on Feb 12, 2008 8:38 AM:
dyan wrote on Feb 12, 2008 8:35 AM:
and leave her culture on the road smashed like a toad." "
Taxpayer & Citizen wrote on Feb 12, 2008 8:32 AM:
jlawrenceendicott wrote on Feb 12, 2008 7:31 AM:
Jeff wrote on Feb 12, 2008 6:59 AM:
Comments on this story are now closed.