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Refuting God, Jesus, Bible


Friday, December 7, 2007 10:56 PM PST

Comments (38 comment(s))

Peter Stearns and Dan White, in their recent letters, insist that the reference to Jesus in one of Josephus's writings was a fact.

For well over 200 years, both sectarian and secular biblical scholars have claimed this reference to Jesus was a fourth-century clumsy Christian forgery.

Biblical scholar John Remsburg (1848-1919) notes that Eusebius, in the fourth century, claimed "fraud and deception was all right in furthering the interests of Christianity." Some scholars claim Eusebius created the forgery.

Remsburg notes that a Dr. Lardner (circa 1760), a defender of Christianity, Bishop Warburton, the Rev. Dr. Giles (Church of England), the Rev S. Baring-Gould, the Rev. Dr. Hookaas and Dr. Alexander Campbell, an American Christian apologist, all state this reference to Jesus is a forgery.

T.W. Doane also references the claims of Lardner and Giles, and C. Dennis McKinsey lists 18 reasons supporting the forgery claim.

Biblical scholar Lloyd Graham notes, "No serious student today, not even theologians, believes Josephus wrote the passage as it is so palpably false."

Joseph Wheless, an attorney, Remsburg, Doane and Graham all note that this passage was unknown until 328 CE, when Eusebius cited it.

The evidence is so overwhelming of this being a forgery that it is inconceivable that anyone in the 21st century would claim it to be factual.

I don't believe in the existence of God nor the divinity of Jesus, period. And I have only one hatred, and that is ignorance.

Both writers obviously are persons of faith, which means they believe without any evidence, and thus they continue the deception that Eusebius started centuries ago.

Ralph Matthews
Galt

Reader Feedback

Lodian wrote on Dec 15, 2007 11:28 PM:

" real facts: What religion are you? "

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real facts wrote on Dec 15, 2007 2:01 PM:

" whew; i would encourage everyone to stay away from organized "religion", but not at the expense of a RELATIONSHIP with Jesus Christ. one things for sure, "if" there is a God, this stuff in here that we are discusing sure isn't "dribble". you and i will be tested on our choices concerning what you just trivialized. everyone expects to go to heaven, but how many people actually live like Gods authority dictates, so thats a reality? not many "

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Whew wrote on Dec 15, 2007 12:20 AM:

" This is a perfect example of why most of us stay away from orgainized religion. All this dribble wears you out. "

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real facts wrote on Dec 15, 2007 12:00 AM:

" nylodian; me, i wouldn't use the word "threatened", so much as it is not within their capability to take something thats already there. my contention is that their "aim" is to destroy the weak hearted, those that don't have a strong foundation, that cannot tell that what these people are selling is something that is designed to keep them from God (that is evil). i defend on behalf of the weak, who don't know how to defend themselves. the lies about God, will only grow stronger. there is "influence" attached, and thats the evil part "

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real facts wrote on Dec 14, 2007 11:49 PM:

" sigh; it's not a matter of "amounts of evidence", as their is more than enough historical evidence to provide a person for which to logically and intellectually believe. i could provide you TONS of evidence to believe. the excuse to not believe the evidence based on the "interpretation" angle is bogus as well. if it's provable that it was written in history pre-event, slam dunk. what it ALWAYS is, is a matter of someone finding an excuse NOT to believe, not because there isn't enough "evidence". you will see my challenge, and you will turn away, proving i am right "

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nylodian wrote on Dec 14, 2007 6:32 AM:

" Lodian: Amen to your 3:49 post!!! I also believe if people have a strong faith they wouldn't feel threatened by movies based on works of fiction, either. (ie. Golden Compass or DaVinci Code). "

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Sigh wrote on Dec 13, 2007 8:54 PM:

" I don't think being a person of faith means believing without any evidence. After all, a lot of our views of evidence is based on how one interprets things. This is true in Science as in elsewhere "

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real facts wrote on Dec 13, 2007 8:15 PM:

" most Christians don't know how to defend against these attacks, and some lose thier "faith". notice i said faith? i didn't say they lose their relationship with Christ. it can kill someones faith, and that is their goal. both of them. if either one of them came in here with noble intentions despite their unbelief, i can respect that. but come in here looking to rip the faith out of someones heart, and i will make sure THAT never happens. their intent is pure evil. there is NOTHING integrity laden about it "

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real facts wrote on Dec 13, 2007 8:08 PM:

" lodian; the answer, no and yes. technically "they" can't rip Jesus Christ out of anyones heart, so long as he is there in the first place. what makes these guys evil is they don't come here to "debate", they come here to destroy. they both know it's possible to keep people FROM believing in the first place, by purposefully lying about true history. they both know that can steer BELIEVERS away from the Lordship of Christ over a believers life via unbelief. con't------> "

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real facts wrote on Dec 13, 2007 8:01 PM:

" don't lie dan. i spend 1/2 my time telling you to take a hike, because you add nothing of substance in these blogs, to prove you only troll them to cause trouble, that you need to leave those of us who DO believe, ALONE. the other 1/2 of my time i spend (when you won't go away) making you accountable for your nasty swipes, by proving thats all you do. for over a year i have been giving you the chance to act human, by you offering counter intellectual info. NOTHING. until then, i just take out the trash "

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Lodian wrote on Dec 13, 2007 3:49 PM:

" real facts: Don't you think that if someone can get their faith ripped out of their hearts by reading an anonymous message board then they never had it to begin with? "

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real facts wrote on Dec 13, 2007 1:19 PM:

" lodian; no i am not a preacher or pastor. what i do (in here) is defend the historocity of Jesus Christ against those who would troll through these halls, looking to rip the faith out of peoples hearts. true, i am "long winded". but it is born out of a penchance for making SURE i tell the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help me God. i make sure i am thorough in covering everything i need to, which may lead to many posts. i don't leave anything "in the bag" (sort to speak) "

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Dan wrote on Dec 13, 2007 12:32 PM:

" Lodian- Real Fakes spends 1/2 her time screaming at me to leave her alone and stop posting and the other 1/2 her time screaming at me because I don't post more and faster. Nuts. "

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Lodian wrote on Dec 13, 2007 9:06 AM:

" Wow, real facts, you've got 21 posts out of the 24 here. Are you a preacher? "

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real facts wrote on Dec 12, 2007 1:14 PM:

" matthews does his usual hit and run by submitting his anti-Christian preamble, then he sits back and "prays" for it's intended purpose; to rip the faith from as many believers as possible. pure evil. why? the guy never sticks around to debate his false faith stealing claims. hits runs and hides. noble men with pure intent don't act that way. same thing with dan. both of them have one agenda, to expunge "faith". leave US alone !!!! you obviously don't believe, so both of you need to get a life. (no self control. their hatred controls their behavior) "

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real facts wrote on Dec 11, 2007 1:25 PM:

" nothing dan? you came in here swinging and i gave you the chance to hit it out of the park. nothing but a foul ball (as usual). you would think that a guy like you that hates Christianity with as much "passion" as you do, would be salivating all over himself at the chance of proving (historically) that Jesus Christ really was just a "myth". because you don't, it shows you can't. you posted in the other blog today, which shows your chicken about answering my challenge / questions. your all anchor. no "boat" "

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real facts wrote on Dec 10, 2007 8:31 PM:

" "straw-man" arguements" huh? whats "straw" about history? was it written or not (the O.T)? what "facts" of matthews do YOU ascribe to? i asked you questions, and your not man enough to answer them. a real man would at least try and debate history as i have challenged you to countless times. your response; to chicken out from it. you've never debated anything in one year. you can't make history disappear because you don't like it. but if it never happened, YOU can prove it didn't. you would think that you would be salivating at the chance of that. "

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real facts wrote on Dec 10, 2007 8:09 PM:

" i know you wish i made things up. how about you refer the reading audience to ONE TIME where you offered anything but your nasty swipes? for over a year now, you have never said anything on the level of matthews for me to debate, or for counter information to disprove what i claim. not once have you EVER offered counter intellectual information. everyone of your posts are attacks. if you ever actually were man enough to debate something by offering something intellectually counter, i would drop dead. there's your incentive "

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Dan wrote on Dec 10, 2007 12:58 PM:

" Sorry, RF, but you simply don't read what I write and, subsequently, you resort to making stuff up. There's no sense talking to a nut who makes stuff up. If ever you decide to discard your habit of straw-man arguments and ad hominem attacks, you might find a conversation. Now, though, you are only ranting. And to the person who couldn't think of a name and posted as "To Whomever", no. "

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To Whomever wrote on Dec 10, 2007 7:10 AM:

" I've always thought Dan and Ralph Matthews are one person. They both write the same erroneous words. "

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real facts wrote on Dec 9, 2007 11:31 PM:

" to embarrass you further, you have claimed consistently that Jesus Christ was only a "myth", that he never existed. then in your post, you state that what matthews said, contained "actual facts". the joke "scholars" he qouted, most have one thing in common, they believe that Christ existed, but wasn't devine. factual huh dan? is that your position? i thought Christ NEVER existed? you continue to prove your position is built on hate, not on "facts". your integrity is a joke. if a person has to lie, they have no position "

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real facts wrote on Dec 9, 2007 2:14 PM:

" by the way dan, since you so freely labeled what matthews said were "facts", i want to see you specifically pick out just one of his "pearls" and debate it's merit with me. anyone. anyone or anybody he mentioned as being a "scholar". lets see you prove what he said as being "factual". you made the statement, now lets see you back it up. your a hypocrite. i don't see YOU parading your full name on these blogs. "

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real facts wrote on Dec 9, 2007 2:06 PM:

" heres some facts danny boy. lets see you debate those facts. those words were written by men HUNDRENDS of years before Christ. we still have those words TODAY. history. those words were written by a people that were antagonistic to Jesus Christ. there is absolutely nothing you can do or say that can make that untrue. you can only wish it weren't. written history. debate it. i want to see you tell the reading audience that those words were never written. that the Old testament never existed. like you never have, i bet you can't intellectually prove it wrong. "

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real facts wrote on Dec 9, 2007 1:45 PM:

" HERES SOME MORE HISTORICAL "FACTS" DANNY BOY; "He states that, according to the laws of chance, it would require two hundred billion earths, populated with four billion people each, to come up with one person whose life could fulfill one hundred accurate prophecies without any errors in sequence. Yet the Scriptures record not one hundred, but over three hundred prophecies that were fulfilled in Christ’s first coming alone". (Dr. Charles Ryrie, Today in the Word, December, 1989, p. 7) "

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real facts wrote on Dec 9, 2007 1:43 PM:

" dan, how would you know whats a fact or not? you "like" matthews hit parade of joke scholars, only because it fits your anti-God heart. you have never ONCE debated ANYTHING in here, so your ability to determine in life of actually what is /isn't is an intellectual joke. you wouldn't aknowledge a "fact" if it were a fact, because your not interested in truth. so dan, lets see you PROVE what matthews said is "factual". i can bet my life you can't. you NEVER back up anything you spew. for once, bring some "teeth" to your bite "

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Dan wrote on Dec 9, 2007 7:23 AM:

" There is an important distinction that is to be seen here: Matthews makes his case with actual facts, while the poster "Real Facts", who doesn't have the courage Matthews does to use his name, always resorts to personal attacks in an attempt to not only prove the Christian love he professes to enjoy, but to encourage others to join him in his fantasy. Rave on, Real Facts. "

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real facts wrote on Dec 8, 2007 4:43 PM:

" what about the early church fathers? they talk about Christ as living and breathing. clement between 30AD and 100AD, ignatius AD 117 and justin martyr who wrote works on Christian apologetics. see what i mean about history and the willful exclusion thereof? matthews used to be able to get away with his swipes. not anymore. google it yourself people. "historical evidence of Jesus Christ". ahhhhh history, my beautiful friend. if you don't do your own "homework", you have only yourself to blame. you don't know, because you don't WANT to know "

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real facts wrote on Dec 8, 2007 4:34 PM:

" not only josephus, but a whole cast of people HISTORICALLY refer to Jesus Christ, including those opposed to Christianity. thallus in AD52 wrote about Christ, as did ...phlegon in 140AD, pliny the younger, cornelius tactitus in 52AD, suetonius in 120AD, mara bar-serapion in 70AD, etc. even the early rabbinical writers talk about Christ (albeit in hostile terms). con't----> "

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real facts wrote on Dec 8, 2007 2:08 PM:

" i would love to see matthews try to refute, or excuse away the prophecies of Christ. the prophecies of Christ solidify the biblical internal (and external) claims of Christ. it is entirely the complete foundation to those claims. if you can refute them, Jesus Christ would be nothing more than a self appointed, delusional man. if the prophecies are true, matthews is the delusional one. wanna try ralph? i am betting he doesn't. evil intended people ultimately have no game, after they are exposed as such. lets play the biblical history, VS your "scholars" game "

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real facts wrote on Dec 8, 2007 1:46 PM:

" to prove he is based in hatred, he always comes to LNS, hits and runs his willful exclusion of history, so he can rip the faith out of someones heart (he hopes), then disappears. ignorance huh? if a person doesn't believe, why on earth would they do that? if i'm an atheist, the LAST place i would hang is here. evil drives these people, nothing less. matthews, anytime you want to be a man and actually debate the lies you perpetuate, instead of running away, here i am. you will NEVER catch me hitting and running. "

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real facts wrote on Dec 8, 2007 1:38 PM:

" despite matthews ramblings of so called "scholars" and thier (and his)lame attempt at excusing away Jesus Christ, this one quote self indicts matthews more than them all ..."And I have only one hatred, and that is ignorance". thats a lie. because it's not ignorance that matthews suffers from and what he bases his attack on Christianity, it's a willfull exclusion OF history. anybody who spends countless hours attempting to strip away something he doesn't believe in, away from someone who does, is because OF hatred. Con't---> "

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real facts wrote on Dec 8, 2007 1:32 PM:

" on this, the most ultimate of all the issues of life (whether or not there is a God, and who he is and what he demands), there is only one way to make sure ....follow the evidence, and where the evidence leads you, there lies your answer. history people. not opinions of history, history. did it happen or not?, and IF it did, you are an utter fool to spend your life excusing it away. you only don't know, because you don't WANT to know. not because of lack of evidence. history. your best friend, or your indictment. con't----> "

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real facts wrote on Dec 8, 2007 1:27 PM:

" how come archaeology has only supported the biblical record? it's never ONCE contradicted it. EVER. play dumb all you want, history speaks louder than any self appointed scholar could. i love history, because i only have to repeat it. guys like matthews have to omit it, or completely lie about it in order to excuse it. there is a sickness attached to that. claiming you know something is true, but resorting to outright lying about it to excuse it away. thats ultimate futility. con't----> "

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real facts wrote on Dec 8, 2007 1:21 PM:

" don't believe me? fine. but you can prove me wrong by going ALL the way back. was the biblical record retained, and is it accurate? did the prophets really make those claims, and were they fufilled BODILY in Jesus Christ? that answer is emphatically YES. only God can accurately tell the future. because we have the biblical record, and the subsequent EYEWITNESS account of the historocity of Jesus Christ both by those who followed him, and those who hated him. and that backed up by thousands of years of archaeology. con't-----> "

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real facts wrote on Dec 8, 2007 1:15 PM:

" the historical person of Jesus Christ fullfilled around 300 (+/-) prophecies. 25 alone from the historical book of isiah written approx 700yrs BEFORE Christ. whoops. there will always be naysayers, those that attempt to refute something they don't like. has NOTHING to do with "ignorance", and everything (based on historical proof) on WILLFULL omission. going back to my assertion about the internet, ANYBODY with a brain and an interest in what REALLY went down in history, can tell that matthews claims are laid on a bed of willfull omission. it sure isn't based in history. con't----> "

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real facts wrote on Dec 8, 2007 1:07 PM:

" for centuries BEFORE anybody on matthews hit parade of "scholars" was ever born, God made sure that the matthews' of this world would never be able to undermine his authority, by making sure that his word differentiated itself above man, via prophetic pre-emtiveness. only God has 100% accurate knowledge of the future, and thru his word that became evident. when you (God) tell the world your coming to "visit" 500 years before you do, and on THE EXACT DAY, that pretty much slams the lid on any "attempts" by a person like matthews, to strip it's authenticity. -----> con't "

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real facts wrote on Dec 8, 2007 12:58 PM:

" just because someone claims they area a scholar (of any kind) doesn't mean they are. there are a plethora of people on tv claiming to be "Christians", who are ripping people off of their money unchallenged. people masquerade as alot of things, doesn't make it so. a true scholar is one who remains true to the subject, despite any biases. what i love about history, is that NO "scholar" on earth could possibly strip it's (the bible's) authenticity, because it's authenticity is based IN history. con't-----> "

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real facts wrote on Dec 8, 2007 12:51 PM:

" Biblical scholar Lloyd Graham? what a joke. there are people high on drugs in downtown lodi that fit that description better than graham. graham used to tell people that the planets were once suns, and someday the earth will be a "sun" when it burns out. some "scholar" he is. look ralph, you seem to have lost your mind (and your ability to pull this stuff on people). with the internet, you can't lie anymore about history and "people". because now EVERYONE has the ability to tell that what your selling is baloney. con't-----> "

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