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Rediscovering what I believe


Wednesday, June 13, 2007 1:54 PM PDT

Comments (59 comment(s))

Faith is a life-long journey. It is reshaped by the events of our lives and the world in which we live those lives. Where I am in faith and practice today is not where I expect to be tomorrow or where I have been yesterday.

Such a reality leads me to pay attention to my life every day, the good and the bad, the desirable and undesirable. All are a part of who I am and who I am becoming. It is journey marked by change and excitement; also by some trepidation and yearning for the security of the past.

First, let me define what I do not believe. Some convictions I have held dear at some point in my life; others I have always carried with a bit of discomfort.

Creation and the domination system

The Apostles' Creed begins, "I believe in God the Father Almighty, creator of heaven and earth."

Certainly they came about by some means. Lacking scientific insight and sophisticated instruments, the people who gave us the Bible attributed the reality of the world to the God they worshiped, as have many cultures.

The Hebrew/Christian tradition is unique in that the world does not result from divine violence. Rather, it is the intentional creation of a divine being who also seeks to be worshipped and obeyed.

Scripture tells us that harmony results when divine order is followed. That is, when men obey God, women obey men and children obey both men and women. Genesis 38 gives us the story of Tamar, who failed to bear male offspring before her husbands died.

The account describes a culture where male members of the family/clan/tribe make life-and-death decisions regarding the lives of women. Such order is also clear in Exodus, 21:22. It is the domination system that assumes male genitalia are a source of wisdom conferring the right to dominate those on the level below.

If the Judeo/Christian tradition gave priority to Genesis, one where women and men appear to have equality before God, our history would be quite different.

The rest of the commandments, especially nine and 10, which warn against coveting and seeing a wife as a male possession, appear to be directed to males, who would have responsibility for enforcing these commandments and dealing with offenders.

I no longer believe these things.

I believe that the world, the universe or universes, came into being through a series of incidents which may or may not have been designed and guided by a divine mind. The biblical universe does not begin to comprehend the scope of the galactic systems, of which earth is a small, small part.

It is natural to want to explain how it came to be. In the pre-scientific age, it was faith in a supernatural being that explained these things. Today we search with space-based telescopes and spacecraft sent to other planets.

We cannot apply a biblical template from the first century to our contemporary situation.

Men superior to women?

In ages past, systems of faith provided the structure that supported the domination system. The Hebrew/Christian culture has interpreted this order of creation to support the domination of females by males. The Apostle Paul states this clearly in Ephesians 5:22 and I Corinthians 11:3 (and following verses).

Other New Testament references appear to support male/female equality, such as Galatians 3:28. However, this understanding never was a dominating force in Christian culture.

In my early years, I grew up in a congregation and denomination where men sat on one side of the church while women and children sat on the other. Women had no vote in congregational affairs except as they were able to influence their husbands. Women did not become voting members of judicatory assemblies until after I was ordained in 1961. There are denominations today that continue to restrict the leadership of worship to men.

I no longer believe in the system that grew out of it. I choose rather to celebrate the gift of the world, a world that is both wondrous and awful. Wondrous in its beauty and diversity, in its resources and life-giving ecological systems; awful in its earthquakes, tornados, hurricanes, floods and other destructive forces.

Are humans made in the image of God?

It is my observation that we tend to believe that "people like us" carry God's image, while people in other lands, other skin tones, languages, religions and customs do not.

It is difficult to face the fact that portions of scripture justify genocide and crimes against humanity. When we do not believe people carry the image of God, we feel justified in doing violence against them.

Christians in this nation have mounted a powerful campaign against abortion because it supposedly takes the life of one created in the image of God. Yet we go to war and report body counts with pride.

This history of violence is clearly reflected in our scriptures (Numbers 21:1-3 and 31:1-12; Deuteronomy 2:34 and 3:1-6). Under today's guidelines for international behavior, such actions would be called genocide or war crimes.

At this point in my life, I can recite the First Article of the Apostles' Creed only with my fingers crossed. This does not absolve me from responsible engagement with my environment. My familiarity with Jesus and His ways leads me to ask important questions as I interact with my world.

As a consumer of non-renewable resources, what is my responsibility to future generations? How do I live so that I value the lives of people in other nations, especially third-world nations, as much as I value people in this country? What does it mean to follow Jesus, who had "compassion on the multitudes" as he fed the hungry crowds?

The challenge is to ask how I can be a responsible citizen of the world as I experience it in all its complexity. What values will guide my life in relation to my fellow inhabitants on planet earth and to the planet itself? This, rather than doctrinaire, closed-end statements about creation, is where I find myself today.

My task as a follower of Jesus is to discern what that means for me and the choices I have the privilege of making.

Robert Mattheis was pastor of Lodi's St. Paul Lutheran Church for 20 years until 1994. That year, he was elected bishop of the Sierra Pacific Synod, where he oversaw 215 congregations from Porterville to the Oregon border and east to Elko, Nev. He retired from the synod in 2002.

Mattheis, 71, still lives in Lodi with his wife, Janet. Their daughter, AmyJo Mattheis, is pastor of Way of Christ Community in north Stockton.

Reader Feedback

real facts wrote on Jun 22, 2007 6:34 PM:

" (None of you have addressed this reality of human life....mattheis). i got to thinking about this statement, and how dangerous it is to Gods standards. we as a creation are to NEVER waver when it comes to any crossroad(s)in human history both in the past/future. Gods standards do not change because societies/moral compasses change. Gods standards are for all time, no matter the subject matter. you stick to that hard and fast, no matter the consequences. thats how you FOLLOW Jesus Christ. "

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al-righty wrote on Jun 22, 2007 10:01 AM:

" Pray for Bob its the great deceiver who generates such thoughts like those who itellectually attempt to display faith by secular means. Peter teaches us to expect false teachers to arise from within the church as well as from without. So also in our time, false teachers will arise “among us” It is easy to identify false teachers in other religions or in liberal or apostate churches Its relatively easy to expect false teachers to arise from without. But Peter tells us they will also arise from within the community of believers Acts 20:28-32 "

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KC wrote on Jun 21, 2007 10:27 AM:

" Bob: on one hand you say that "I am not God and therefore all thoughts, ideas and conclusions are limited by my finiteness." On the other hand, you seem to relegate your "god" into a pretty small box based on the assumption that man in all his wisdom can make sense of God. If God is not comprehensible, why do you make assumptions that there are no miracles, that He didn't create the earth, that he couldn't have made himself incarnate, that Christ's death has nothing to do with salvation, etc.? "

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Thank God I'm an Atheist wrote on Jun 18, 2007 5:49 PM:

" I never made that assumption about liberal christians, but am only commenting about what YOU wrote in your article. I have always found it interesting that many people need a religious faith as a basis for their moral codes. I have a strong moral code that is not based on faith. I don't need to pray or confess my sins. The irony is the evil perpetrated by pious religious hypocrites who are praying and tithing their way to get rid of their guilt. "

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Robert Mattheis wrote on Jun 18, 2007 1:40 PM:

" Atheist appears to assume one cannot be politically liberal while also being a theologian. I disagree. The principles of liberalism, as I understand them, flow out of the biblical concern for justice, care for the stranger in the land, compassion for the poor and downtrodden. If, by liberalism, you mean an openness to questions, that is consistent with my understanding that I am not God and therefore all thoughts, ideas and conclusions are limited by my finiteness. Therefore none of us will ever be able to fully capture God's essence, being, reality in words. "

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BE wrote on Jun 18, 2007 9:40 AM:

" BM - sensible interpretation derives from linguistic, cultural and holistic/thematic contextualization of the material. Go and compare the "jesus seminar" folk and their ilk to the best modern theologians/apologists and I think you'll be surprised who is bringing the most "assumptions" to the task at hand. I think you'll agree that many of their filters are void of rationalization. "

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Parishioner wrote on Jun 18, 2007 9:29 AM:

" To the atheist: AMEN! ;) "

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Thank God I'm an Atheist! wrote on Jun 18, 2007 8:31 AM:

" Bishop Mattheis, I am more "religious" than you! You are having cognitive dissonance between your liberal politics and your religious faith. As an atheist, I can clearly see this in your comments. You are a "politically correct" liberal, and THAT is your new religion. Liberals try to pretend they are "objective" by being PC, but they are really hypocrites. Who are you? A liberal pretending to be religious, or a theologian pretending to be liberal? "

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real facts wrote on Jun 17, 2007 11:34 AM:

" God is the ultimate authority. secondary to that you have to weigh the passages against the "whole" of Gods word, not the "bits and pieces" theology that plagues mens disobedient hearts. start with context for a difficult subject matter, then work your way through the "whole" of Gods word. there is nothing in this life that i cannot rectify against Gods word. but then again, i have never had a problem with it's authority despite disagreeing with it, or not fully understanding it. and i am the last person to "blind faith" my way into a relationship with God "

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real facts wrote on Jun 17, 2007 11:22 AM:

" anytime something actually isn't "black and white", interpretation is made easier by adhereing to a simple edict; God is able to tell his creation what he means and what he wants from us. he can't hold us accountable unless he can. that means that in order to "interpret" something, one thing needs to happen, that we MUST adhere to Gods standards as he has explained it without question. we don't possess the right to change/alter it no matter what we think or feel about it. (cont)---> "

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real facts wrote on Jun 17, 2007 10:56 AM:

" ("None of you have addressed this reality of human life". "

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real facts wrote on Jun 17, 2007 10:41 AM:

" there is no need for "interpretation" when the bible is 100% clear on a subject matter. interpretation belongs to discerning grey areas of Gods word. a person is either interested in the truths of Gods word, or he isn't, and willfully departs from it when the texts are chrystal clear. tell me mattheis, what isn't clear to you about Christ raising HIMSELF from the dead, and God creating the universe himself? if a person can't come to that conclusion, it surely isn't a matter of "interpretation". "

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Robert Mattheis wrote on Jun 16, 2007 5:11 PM:

" Thanks for the affirmation from some of you responders. Appreciated. As to others, I don't think I've lost my mind or have dementia though I suppose that is worth looking at. I have not consciously been dishonest over the years. As I suspect is true for many, these questions I now pursue have lived deep within for many years. Rather than being deceptive or Satanic I believe I am simply finding courage to ask questions. "

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Robert Mattheis wrote on Jun 16, 2007 6:33 AM:

" I have raised questions about interpretation. None of you have addressed this reality of human life. To read a statement is to interpret it. We arrive at different conclusions as we do so. The Bible is the story of one peoples interpretation of their life and history. Each and every one of us reads and interprets it with certain principles of interpretation. There are no exceptions. I would like to hear you discuss your principles of interpretation. Could you also identify the assumptions you bring to the interpretive task? "

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I know Bob wrote on Jun 15, 2007 7:11 PM:

" I am not a religious expert like most of the posters on this site. I do know one thing however, Bob Mattheis is one of the nicest most caring individuals I know. His wife Jan is of the same mold. He loves to make you think and generate discussion. He treats everyone with respect and will give the shirt off his back if necessary. At least give him the same respect. "

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BE wrote on Jun 15, 2007 9:55 AM:

" DogBark: The discussion here is not about whether churches split over relatively minor things. Some of the folks Bob cites in his writings don't believe in God as creator, don't believe that Jesus came from or was God, don't believe that sin exists, don't believe any of the Biblical miracles, don't believe that Jesus rose from the dead, don't believe the Bible is accurate and don't believe that Jesus's crucification was a salvational act. What's left? Church is just a service organization (like Rotary with bad music) and Jesus becomes Dr. Phil with holes in his hands! "

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dogbark wrote on Jun 15, 2007 9:36 AM:

" whoops. My alter ego has just been informed by a friend that loves to catch me in error, that I mixed up the centuries. The Lutherans and Presbyterians both rejected the body and blood bit and did reconcile (although didn't merge) well over ten years ago. (About the time I bailed outta the boat.) So see, educated adults can change. My apologies. "

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dogbark wrote on Jun 15, 2007 8:37 AM:

" Just remember that less than ten years ago the Presbytes and the Luthers could not mend their schism of a hundred years because the orignal arguement cropped up again; does the eucharist symbolically or actually become the body and blood of Christ? As we headed into the 21st century grown, educated adults couldn't get beyond that bizarre arguement between the two sects. "

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former parishoner wrote on Jun 14, 2007 6:54 PM:

" Bob: Who now do you think created Heaven and Earth? Your article saddens me. Either you have lost your mind and are slipping into some sort of dementia or I have missed a point. When you say you must cross your fingers when saying the first article of the creed is pretty clear. Genesis does not tell us how God created the universe; just that he did. This is pretty elementary. God bless you and you are still loved and admired. "

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real facts wrote on Jun 14, 2007 2:23 PM:

" there is nothing "courageous" or "noble" about being wrong in matters of life that carry eternal weight. when we ALL stand before God, "sincerity" will either solidify your position before God, or it will be your ticket apart from him. the ONLY thing that matters is what you believed based entirely on what God has said about himself. doesn't matter one iota how sincere or nice the person was that demonstrated "his own" belief. "we" aren't being hard on mattheis, mattheis has "sincerely" walked away from Christ "

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real facts wrote on Jun 14, 2007 2:11 PM:

" speaking of the law, God has set forth standards for man to live by and ultimately be judged by. that verse "judge not lest"... is always used out of context. it's design is to silence those who actually correct the un-truths of those that speak inconsistencies about Gods truth. Jesus himself admonished his followers to differentiate the truth when the time came, so that false truths are exposed. that same "truth" that mattheis claimed to have represented. "

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real facts wrote on Jun 14, 2007 1:53 PM:

" lodiladylawyer; questioning something is what God DOES require from each of us, that is inherently a Godly pursuit. blind faith in anything is opposite of Gods expectations. however, willfull 180 degree departures away from Gods standards when a person knows better, is willfull disobedience to Gods authority. mattheis knows that, but continues anyway. your a laywer, and you know what consequences there are when someone breaks the law. you uphold the law, correct? cont---> "

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MaderaMachinistMan wrote on Jun 14, 2007 12:12 PM:

" From what I can tell, Pastor Bob is one of the kindest, most compassionate & generous people in Lodi. The fact that his article opened up a theological can of worms doesn't change that. And it doesn't mean that those questioning his article are impugning his integrity or harboring peronal ill-will towards the man. Personally, I think many of the views he espouses are erroneously derived and flat-out wrong. So what? Nothing Bob says or believes absolves me practicing the two most important laws: love of god and love of neighbor. Shalom. "

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parishioner wrote on Jun 14, 2007 11:25 AM:

" to LodiLadyLawyer - one of my comments was based on Mattheis' judgemental statement of pro-life people. I guess if you are for abortion in our society you don't see it that way. Its all relative to where a person is coming from. "

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LodiLadyLawyer wrote on Jun 14, 2007 9:02 AM:

" I think it took a tremendous among of courage for Bishop Bob to put forth his views in a forum which has proven to be so hostile all in the name of Christ. "Judge not lest you be judged." "

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LodiLadyLawyer wrote on Jun 14, 2007 9:01 AM:

" . . . than one of the multitude who is confident that he does. Or worse yet, one who is strives deliberately to be a "centrist" in the name of not alienating anyone. (Note that I say "he" because of the paucity of female leadership in the institutional church. Misogyny, bigotry, homophobia and hate speech in the name of Christ are among the major reasons I am no longer affiliated with any organized religion.) (cont.) "

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LodiLadyLawyer wrote on Jun 14, 2007 8:57 AM:

" Having been one of then-Pastor Bob's parishioners during his 20-year tenure at St. P's, I did not always agree with his viewpoints. But what I always appreciated -- and still do -- is his willingness to QUESTION. And the older I get, the more I realize that I don't know a lot of *stuff* and I need to ask a lot of questions. Even if I don't agree with everything coming from a pastor's mouth, I'd much rather hear from one like Bob who admits that he doesn't have all the answers . . . (cont.) "

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dogbark wrote on Jun 13, 2007 2:54 PM:

" ... the readers really need to check the scripture Mattheis quotes because I found some that didn't add up to what he was saying or were taken out of context .... Big deal. You can do this with just about any preacher on any given Sunday. "

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SpongBob SquarePants wrote on Jun 13, 2007 12:04 PM:

" Bishop Spong (Mattheis refers to him) promotes a neo-reformation (post Luther). (source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Shelby_Spong) - some samples: 6. The view of the cross as the sacrifice for the sins of the world is a barbarian idea based on primitive concepts of God and must be dismissed. 2. Since God can no longer be conceived in theistic terms, it becomes nonsensical to seek to understand Jesus as the incarnation of the theistic deity. 9. There is no external, objective, revealed standard writ in scripture or on tablets of stone that will govern our ethical behavior for all time. "

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BE wrote on Jun 13, 2007 9:53 AM:

" A good resource for anyone curious about the Borg/Spong branch of "atheism pretending to be Christianity" is in a link at the end of this post. My question for folks on such a path is this: If the vast majority of Judeo/Christianity is a mythical construct, why not renounce it as such and be done with it? Isn't it hypocritical to attend a church and then "cross their fingers" during the Apostle's Creed? http://www.tektonics.org/af/borg01.html "

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beth wrote on Jun 13, 2007 9:40 AM:

" Good points Gerry. The path that leads one from "Christian" to deist, to agnostic, to atheist and back to a new kind of "Christian" is all too often fallacious. If someone's faith never transcnded the "Sunday School" level of faith that has Jesus as a trinity with the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus, then of course a path that requires only faith in human enlightenment will appeal. Is it possible that these people never really had a faith to lose! "

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parishioner wrote on Jun 13, 2007 7:58 AM:

" "It is a poverty to decide that a child must die so that you may live as you wish." -Mother Teresa "

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parishioner wrote on Jun 13, 2007 7:55 AM:

" Robert- sorry but I don't see the culture rejoicing in the war. In fact more and more republicans are questioning it and turning away from support for Bush. If you really get that a fetus is a living person, why would there be any situation that is best to kill it? "

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Gerry wrote on Jun 13, 2007 7:31 AM:

" all - let's lighten up on the personal attacks. Bob's path is not uncommon and, in my opinion, is not evidence of malice as much as lostness. This path is typically appealing to those whose formative faith was based on and placed in "things" (liturgy, church structure, people, traditions, etc.) instead of on the true living God and His Son Jesus Christ. Worldly things disappoint - and our faith is shattered. The dangerous leap is when one equates this kind of loss of faith to a loss of faith in the One on whom these things are based. "

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Hugh Jass wrote on Jun 13, 2007 6:58 AM:

" The article references the ancient notion that the male genetalia is a source of wisdom. If this is the case, one would have to conclude the paucity of wisdom demonstrated in the writing suggests a duality of acute shortcomings... "

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Ronald Halvorsen wrote on Jun 12, 2007 10:03 PM:

" It is sad to see the career of someone who entered the ministry with faith, goals, beliefs and direction only to be smacked to the side and turned into a "hey, if it floats your boat it must be ok". What a pitiful career statement. "

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Hermann Johanson wrote on Jun 12, 2007 8:12 PM:

" What a poor example for our children and grandchildren. "

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Luther Calvin wrote on Jun 12, 2007 5:57 PM:

" I am surprised how few readers did not respond to this mans journey from a position of faith to that of a rudderless secular humanist. While we struggle against the ACLU and other forces of evil, here is one who should be leading us, alas, he is working for the progressive-humanist side. It would be appropriate for him to mail his Mantle [smock] back if he still has it. "

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P.C.S. wrote on Jun 12, 2007 4:07 PM:

" God is who HE says HE is. God can do what HE says HE can do. WE are who God says WE are. His trusting followers can do all things through Jesus Christ. God's word is alive and active in those who choose to recieve it. "

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real facts wrote on Jun 12, 2007 2:20 PM:

" i read the whole thing. bishop spong's name was ringing in my ears even before i read mattheis' epitath. then mattheis aligned himself with spong, sealing his own fate as an heretic of the faith. in reading what his daughter wrote there as well, the apple didn't fall far from the tree. these two would be better off leading motivational seminars, rather than trying to represent God. both are extremely inaccurate at representing the real Jesus Christ. it's secular humanism, and thats 180 degree's opposite of the totality of Christ. "

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real facts wrote on Jun 12, 2007 1:52 PM:

" NO ONE past, present, or future, will be able to stand before God on judgement day and assert to God that what they "felt" or "believed" was right. we will all be judged by the exact same standards, no matter what time in history we were born. those standards ....what did you do about God according to what God had said about himself. it's both a sad and laughable matter, to think that a man can believe anything they want about God, and still be righteous before him on that day. God determines what man believes. "

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D. Frock wrote on Jun 12, 2007 1:45 PM:

" For a longer, unedited version of Robert's thoughts, please paste the following URL into your browser. http://the-way.info/images/Walking_Stick_-_Spring.pdf The author expands his "things I no longer believe in" to miracles (including the resurrection of Jesus) and prayer. The author is clearly "agnostic" when it comes to God and has relegated Jesus to "wise philosopher" status. he has, in effect, eliminated the need or requirement for faith. Pretty ironic considering Martin Luther's theology. "

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Phillip MaBong wrote on Jun 12, 2007 1:14 PM:

" Hard to tell if the author was purposefully being provocative or humorous - but, wow! A world-class example of vacuous thinking thinly disguised with polysyllabic verbiage and pseudo-theological platitudes. The Hermeneutical butchering of the Tamar and Exodus 21 passage seems to have been lifted from a "Emergent Theology for Dummies" book. "

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Leah (Johnson) Mettler wrote on Jun 12, 2007 7:34 AM:

" I enjoyed your column Pastor Bob, in fact I enjoyed years of your sermons and it was a pleasure to read this one. "

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Pooop Pius XiV wrote on Jun 11, 2007 6:27 PM:

" I have to agree with "real facts". I believe in the bible, but, No I dont build an altar and slaughter sheep on it, but this guy [Mattheis] knows such things have changed. What hasn't changed is the basics of the 10 commandments, protection of life, decency, and other basic human attributes. The Anglicans, Episscopals, and other have been split over following secularism or biblical teachings. Too bad for them, too bad for "Bob". "

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real facts wrote on Jun 11, 2007 2:11 PM:

" the answer to all of this is simple, you either believe what God has to say about any subject matter, or you take a detour from it. it all comes down to a matter of trust, not "faith" or "belief". God gives us the faith to believe, once we TRUST him as the authority. this is a perfect example of a man that doesn't trust Gods authority, and leans instead on what "he" believes. who is Lord and Master in that equation? these kinds of issues are always about authority. "

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another former St Pauler wrote on Jun 11, 2007 1:37 PM:

" Glad I found a real church years ago. I have more faith in the Bible than the previously mentioned "Book of Mattheis". It may not be perfect, but at least this church does not blow in the wind with every secular fad that comes along. "

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Morgan Barrington wrote on Jun 10, 2007 10:33 PM:

" If your faith is this weak and mushy why in the world would you put yourself forward as a minister ? I have looked at teeny pieces of the universe and I cannot discount any tremendous force, or a "god", or a "force" so powerful that we humans cannot understand it. Don't you get it ?? You aren't able to grasp that. I am sorry for you . "

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Larry wrote on Jun 10, 2007 8:38 PM:

" This is sad. Apparently, for Robert, Christianity amounts to driving a hybrid, opposing the war, demonstrating a lack of scriptural knowledge and protecting a woman's right to have an abortion. Thankfully, I serve a living God who's redeeming the world to Himself. And while anyone can see that there are pockets of "dead" religion masquerading as Christianity, I'm blessed to see Christians who are dying to self and living for others regardless of race, sex or religion. Thank you Robert for showing us the fultility and sadness of abandoning the hope of a living savior and embracing human "wisdom". "

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Robert Mattheis wrote on Jun 10, 2007 1:46 PM:

" Parishoner objects to my suggestion that Christians who oppose abortion also reporting body counts with pride. Thank you for raising that issue. My point should have been that it appears to me that our culture often does this. I do not consider myself pro-abortion. I rather believe that there are times when this is the best choice available. I am pro-life. I believe all should have the promise of food, shelter, nurture, health care and education. To support these things is to be pro-life. "

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Robert Mattheis wrote on Jun 10, 2007 1:41 PM:

" Thank for posting comments to my article. All reading involves interpretation. This is true of the Bible and everything we read. When we receive a meaning from something we read we have 'interpreted it." When we do not understand this we "read into" the scriptures the points of view, the assumptions, the prejudices of our lives and our culture. To say that "God said something" means that you choose to believe that this is a direct word from God. It is everyone's choice to believe or not believe such a statement. "

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Former St Pauler wrote on Jun 10, 2007 12:35 PM:

" I think you will find all these teachings in the the book of Mattheis. It's teachings, however, do not correspond to anything in the Bible. "

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Luther Martinot wrote on Jun 10, 2007 12:29 PM:

" As one can see by this article, it is not necessary to have any core values to be a lutheran minister nor a synod bishop. It is a major reason most "mainstream" denominations are declining, the ELCA among them. "

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Way of Christ Community wrote on Jun 10, 2007 12:03 PM:

" While I do believe we are pursuing a living understanding, a "Way of Life," the community of which AmyJo Mattheis is the lead pastor is called "Way of Christ." WOCC Pastor for Communication/Technology "

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real facts wrote on Jun 9, 2007 8:03 PM:

" "I believe that the world, the universe or universes, came into being through a series of incidents which may or may not have been designed and guided by a divine mind". "We cannot apply a biblical template from the first century to our contemporary situation". with the above two quotes, you excused yourself from accuretly representing God scripturally. Gods word about these subjects was preserved, and will always supercede mans "wisdom". you have departed from that. "

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real facts wrote on Jun 9, 2007 7:52 PM:

" the position a person SHOULD come to is that God is able to preserve and record his standards despite history and men. our secondary position SHOULD be to adjust to Gods word, whether we "like" or "understand" it or not. man in his arrogant demeanor somehow thinks that God needs to adjust his truths to us. "we" don't interpret Gods word, God has already interpreted it. you either accept it and live by it, or you don't. we don't have the right to choose what is/isn't. thats what it means to "follow" Christ. "

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real facts wrote on Jun 9, 2007 7:47 PM:

" at the risk of generalizations, this is typical postioning of some of the denominational reasonings of scripture mixing secular humanism with "interpretation". you have to learn to differentiate between the recordation of mans failures in the bible concerning Gods standards, and Gods ACTUAL standards. this is where man goes astray, and loses "faith" in Gods word. it goes to show you that a piece of paper doesn't prove that a person is an expert in representing Gods word. "

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parishioner wrote on Jun 9, 2007 7:51 AM:

" As far as reporting body counts from the war with pride, I don't know any pro-life, abortion opposing Christians that are doing this. Please don't make these assumptions to make us look bad. If you think abortion is good, you have your opinion but you don't have to generalize those of us that think its wrong. "

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parishioner wrote on Jun 9, 2007 7:43 AM:

" so, I think the readers really need to check the scripture Mattheis quotes because I found some that didn't add up to what he was saying or were taken out of context without the whole passage being taken into consideration. "

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